Noticed that, but then look at South Carolina through Mississippi. It looks like you red stains throughout really blue states, but blue stains in very red states.

Ditto. It's a wonder Catholics get a bad rep in some circles...

Even Kentucky. You don't see a red splotch anywhere.

I'm no mathologist, but, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's not enough to swing Michigan in trump's favor.

I don't think it's about numbers that swing the election, at this point. By the narrative, if they find one instance of voter fraud, they've invalidated the whole election.

Here's a different Texas one that was making the rounds and should worry any Dems expecting to "turn Texas blue":

https://twitter.com/longhornderek/st...39532614979585

SI

You mean 0 out of 50 being fraudulent probably doesn't scale very well to steal an election?

SI

Exactly. Because the cover-up is so massive, they were only able to find whatever sparse evidence they have. The system is precluding them from proving the massive scale of what happened.

So when it comes to who is "Real Catholic", Gary Gorski > Pope, got it.

Pretty cool the guy that defines Christianity for all peoples and God himself is right here on FOFC. I mean, hot damn!

This is an opportunity we haven't fully taken advantage of. I say we spin this off into another thread and you can make a list of all FOFcers who are going to hell, and all who will serve you in your Kingdom of Heaven.

Well, 0* eleventy billion is still 0...

Also, LOL @ Dems being able to pull off a massive conspiracy

SI

Exactly. If my memory serves me, every instance of voter fraud found in the past equals such a small number that there's no way anyone can say there is a coordinated effort of voter fraud. This is just the GOP tilting at windmills and putting on a puppet show for their fans.

Just saw the clip of Mike Pompeo saying ‘There will be a smooth transition to a second Trump administration’.

I thought it was clearly a joke.

EDIT: NOT a funny joke, mind you....just that he wasn't being serious.

This is all that needs to be said. Anyone who thinks the Dems are competent enough to pull this off is crazy in the head.

The one that's really shocking is Starr County, which is 95% Hispanic. The last Republican to win that county was Benjamin Harrison in 1892. Obama won it in 2012 with 84% of the vote, and Biden won it this year with 52% of the vote.

And nobody is going to challenge Nancy for leadership. Glad to see the Dems remain so tone deaf.

Glad they don't really want those two Georgia seats. Because this would take away one thing to run against ("Evil Socialist Nancy!")

SI

To be fair, the GOP would try to demonize anyone. It's not like they have to stick to facts or any nonsense like that.

Right. Before the election there were numerous negative ads about "Hollywood Jon Ossoff".

When you only have a 7-8 vote edge, I don't know if you can have a prolonged fight over the Speakership. They'd probably screw up and hand it to Kevin McCarthy

I believe Francis' point is that most everyone comes up short of the teachings of the church, and it's foolish to start picking and choosing what should result in kicking them out of the church.

In essence, it's very similar to, Let he who is without sin...

The Speaker fight I think happened in 2018. Everything I've seen says that the agreement was for Pelosi to stay as leader until after the 2022 election.

Never seen somebody light their small business on fire before. Even, uh, metaphorically.

Maybe don't get into a shouting match with your customers about whether they're Real Catholics (tm), Gary.

This isn't going to go over well, but frankly I don't care.

I know Gary Gorski and had the pleasure of working for him at WS for several years. I consider him one of the finest and noblest human beings I've ever had the privilege of being associated with professionally. I think it's rather revealing the degree to which, once again as a contrarian voice, what others have said about him here is far ruder and more disrespectful than anything he said, and completely out of proportion to what he said. It's just one more example of how FOFC is all for diversity ... so long as it's the kind of diversity we approve of.

This is what I learned growing up in church (where my father was the pastor).

It was quite a surprise when I reached adulthood and learned that that, and many many other things, meant we weren't "real Christians" as defined by people who had bestowed upon themselves the power to define us and nullify our church.

Oh come on. He jumps in the thread as the arbiter of what a true Catholic is and tells other Catholics that they aren't real Catholics because they don't do things the way he thinks they should. People rightfully called him out on it and told him he'd lost them as potential customers. Where is the problem?

Yeah. I'm pretty sure Gary would have no use for my NE Presbyterianism.

I watched the GOP turn Thom Daschle into Lenin. It doesn't matter who it is.

He made an argument about the nature of belief itself, including Catholicism. At no point in that argument did he make a personal attack. People deciding not to buy his products is besides the point and not what I was referring to. What did follow is him being called a 'dumb ass' (by Qwikshot), a sanctimonious ass (Qwikshot again), AlexB posts in support of that statement. Then Gary makes his final post, which again contains no personal attack but a further elaboration and defense of his position. This is followed by CarterNMA, whose helpful comments included 'know-it-all dribble' and 'cram it up your ass', Galaril in support of that (same here), and then you as well Kodos.

By my count, that's five posters, all of whom crossed the line. molson then won the whole discussion with this: "say we spin this off into another thread and you can make a list of all FOFcers who are going to hell, and all who will serve you in your Kingdom of Heaven." Which is so far out of proportion the phrase res ipsa loquitur comes to mind.

Good thing I'm Catholic and we have purgatory.

The problem for me is that there were so many low propensity voters that it seems risky to make predictions based on their votes. How many of the new voters on both sides return in 2022 and/or 2024? Is it possible the electorate looks much more like 2014? How much of the Trump effect carries over to any other candidate?

That's looking on the bright side (and an amusing response)! :D

Luckily the Deep State will keep me from having my posting rights stripped away.

At some point stepping closer to the cliff will result in a fall.

Pence message today to Senate Republicans, per source:

I want to keep serving with you (as president of the Senate), and I think I will.

— Annie Karni (@anniekarni) November 10, 2020

I don't know if you are religious or not, but telling people they aren't a true believer in the faith if you believe X is one of the more offensive things I think you can tell a religious person.

Like if someone told me I wasn't a true Lutheran or Christian because I believe in gay marriage, I would literally write that person out of my life.

Purgatory. Like missing your Greyhound bus connection in Columbus, Ohio.

Jokes on him, we've been in purgatory the last 4 years so that both siders could have their 401k go up less.

I don't even know what to say to that. You know where I stand theologically, we've debated it on multiple occasions.

More to the point, are we really at the point where we're just going to come right out and say that debate is simply not acceptable if the opinion being expressed is offensive? Because if that's where we are than my point is proven:


Any type of honest debate involves risking offending someone and/or being offended. There's no point in debating at all if we don't accept that possibility going in.

We can debate. But if one side of the debate's position is, "My word is God's law and he rejects you and your beliefs", then don't be surprised if it invokes some rebuttal. Even if someone is not particularly religious.

Deliberately offending someone is very different than inadvertently offending someone. Telling someone they aren't a practicing member of the faith because they believe something differently is deliberately offending others. Deliberately offending someone is being an ass. There is no debate when someone is doing that.

It's akin to someone saying you aren't a real American if you voted for Trump, especially when you know there are Trump voters in the room.

Just as long as I have all the books of the Bible and not a cut-down version.

Rebuttal is fine though - this went way beyond that.


No it isn't. If that's what you believe, then saying anything less is dishonest and unworthy. The mere expression of an opinion does not constitute intent to offend, and this also just frankly proves my point. Some opinions are acceptable; others are not.

Eh, I wouldn't call Jesus, Paul, and Nathan (among others) "asses," but that's just me...

Yes, in debate some opinions are acceptable and others are not. Deliberately being an ass is not acceptable in a debate. Knowing there are Catholics who are not super pro-life on this board and saying such a thing is a down low personal attack on someone else's faith.

There is no debate there and it's unacceptable.

I wouldn't have a problem with it. I'll just see my way out of this conversation. :p

There is a reason that Jesus and Paul got people so mad at them... and I'm betting they knew they'd be treated that way. (Yeah, they were being asses - well Paul was a bit more politic so may have avoided it most times - and I don't think that's all too controversial, I mean Jesus told a woman she was akin to a dog once)

Nathan is different as he went directly to David to confront him as a friend. He didn't just throw a bomb in a room to hit whoever.

Ok election thread is a now a religion thread.... I too will grab my hat and coat and see myself out.

I was blunt, but I am willing to say probably to an unprofessional extreme. I apologize for that.

I wish no ill to Gary or his business.

I just know how I was raised, and it was to love all, and treat all with respect, but also to fight for those who cannot fight for themselves.

I see religion twisted just like politics for purposes to segment the population into those who are worthy and those who aren't.

I was not raised that anyone was better than me, nor that anyone was doomed because they didn't follow my path, my religion, my preferences. And at the end, if you believe in God or any faith, you will be judged so let the Almighty judge rather than us on Earth, and if you don't and you've lived as a good person who am I to judge your worthiness, devoutness, or faith?

I don't think (my opinion) that God cares about a rulebook, God just cares. And if that is a simplistic infantile viewpoint, so be it.

While I do agree in part, I feel guilty for playing a role in steering the conversation down a road I knew would be bad for all parties. This board veers hard to the left (and I'm part of that) and I know people that disagree feel piled on simply because they tend to be outnumbered.

As for Gary specifically, I don't agree with his views on religion but he has gone above and beyond with support for his games and helping me directly. We all need to be prepared for the repercussions of our words and actions, but as soon as Gary's business starts being pulled into the debate it becomes uncomfortable for me. Some may feel I'm wrong for that or maybe not. I'm not sure, but I'd personally rather people feel free to post here without their personal lives being affected. That's a fine line that I'm not sure we want to cross into on a message board.

Does he know that? I've been here 20 years and I have no clue what denomination almost anyone here is. I think you're ELCA-ish, maybe, and I know that GrantDawg and JIMGA are Protestant, but no idea what specific denomination. Radii is either atheist or agnostic (forget which.) I would think that revrew is some form of Protestant, but not sure which. Those are literally the only ones I even have the first inkling about...

Well, Paul kindof was an ass and I'm not just meaning pre-conversion

SI

Watched Biden's presser a little bit ago and man, it's such a breath of fresh air to actually hear someone articulate and speak professionally in that setting. No weird ramblings or auto fellating, just clear and direct answers to the press, it's like I woke up from a bad dream.

First, thank you Bryan for your post - like you said it won't go over well but I appreciate you doing it.


I did not tell anyone they were not a true believer/real Catholic. Those were words others said.

I said that I do not feel Joe Biden practices the faith he claims because what he stands for on something like abortion is contrarian to what his faith stands for. That's a major contradiction to a very important teaching in the faith.

Others pointed out that other Catholics do not follow other things the church teaches and I agreed they don't. I didn't make excuses for some people (or for myself) but decided to stick it to Joe Biden for some reason. Is it not true that some people have chosen they don't like the church's teaching about (insert your issue here)? Isn't that why people say they leave the Catholic Church because they don't like the church's teachings on certain things?

When I fail to live up to the teachings I do what my faith tells me I am supposed to do - I confess my sins, do my penance and try to do better in the future. It's not easy to live up to everything the Catholic Church says is right. I guess that's why there is that passage in the Bible about the gate being narrow...If you don't agree with the Catholic Church on any of this that's certainly your right and I believe you have every right to believe that way.

Again, my point is that if you don't practice what the church is telling you (for any religion) how are you practicing its faith especially when you are talking about the most significant pieces of it? It would seem that you're practicing part of the faith and how do you practice part of faith?

People here have spun this into whatever they want. Bryan pointed it out. All of my statements are there - you can see I have never said the words some have claimed.

Anyhow, I don't wish to derail the thread further into a religious discussion. I've explained multiple times what I said, I never take to insulting people personally and if people want to insult me, not buy my products or whatever then that's up to them.

I know we have at least one Jedi

For your records, non-practicing Catholic (but still believe in Purgatory).

You rang?

Well said.

the force is strong with this one...

This. I've known Gary a long time and he's every bit as passionate about his beliefs as I am about mine. He's a solid guy and he lives his truth and even though he and I don't see eye to eye on the whole religion thing, there's no reason to castigate him over something that he holds true to. He's every bit as entitled to it as anyone else. I don't really care what the Catholic church, or Catholics believe as what is right and what isn't right, so long as we're not creating policy around it. We can disagree about that, but again, it's got nothing to do with whether or not he's entitled to that belief as much as I am mine.

Shit like this is exactly why Jim doesn't come around here either. It should be a safe space where these guys can get away and be themselves, fans, dads, husbands. Let it go, who the fuck cares what religions definition the Catholic church uses to define who is who.?Just do you.

When you say that someone who believes that the government should not ban abortion is not a practicing Catholic, what exactly do you think Catholics on this board who believe the government should not ban abortion hear?

Seems like a complete lack of thinking of how people would legitimately interpret your words.

If I said that a conservative Catholic who believes in the death penalty is not a practicing Catholic, I'd be really silly in thinking that other Catholics who believe in the death penalty wouldn't feel like I was castigating doubts on their faith.

exactly.

to be fair I didn't read any of the word salad on religion thats consumed the last two pages, but I think one of the unique things about FOFC is we are better than the average internet community at going to our respective corners.

Threating someones real world livelihood isn't who we are.

May the force be with you, always.

This is not the first time we've had this exact discussion on these boards. So I'd imagine the participants would realize that there are both pro-choice and pro-life Catholics on here.

I'll put it this way. This isn't reddit; we know each other pretty well. It's like a cul-de-sac. And I see it as would saying something getting you chewed out. And in any neighborhood conversation I've known, saying someone isn't a practicing member of the faith (Christian/Catholic, etc) because they are pro-choice would get you chewed out and then some. I've even witnessed some of that at the local bar.

I think you missed the point of my post - it’s what I thought was a famous line from the Alanis Morissette song ‘Ironic’...

Quikshot posted about how religion teaches people to love one another and in the same sentence called Gary a sanctimonious ass who could shove something up his derriere, or words to those effect... without any hint of irony.

I don’t necessarily agree with Gary’s POV, don’t necessarily disagree with it either being an atheist, but I definitely felt that Quikshot’s post in particular was the perfect example of why religion doesn’t appeal to me - the whole discussion is the exact epitome of the Emo Phillips joke I posted last week

You have a sad devotion to that ancient religion.

Imran had me right up until the part where saying something gets you chewed out. You live in the same area, no matter what, you've got to live near everyone for a long, long time. There's no need to make a scene. You don't like it, go home. If someone goes overboard, acts like a douche, tries to dominate the corner, tries to be the big swinging dick on the block, then call them out, they are a narcissistic bully, and that's a high hill to climb. But everyone gets a chance to be who they want to be, live how they want to live, play how they want to play, and dance how they want to dance.

I'm feeling a kumbaya moment soon.

Is this the end of the cancel culture-like at FOFC? Nah, hoping for too much.

So you liking baby yoda?

I dunno about your neck of the woods, but I've seen plenty of examples of a yelling chew out fight and then both folks are drinking together the next week.

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But isn't this all about whether policy should be created around it? The discussion started over Biden's belief that there shouldn't be policy created around it (a government ban), and that is apparently contrary to the Catholic faith as a whole. Not just being opposed morally to abortions, but precluding others from having them in the name of God. THAT's what the faith requires, apparently. I don't care if someone's personal belief precludes abortions for themselves either. But we're talking politics and law, I thought.

You are correct, I did miss the point - although I did catch the Morissette bit, I misunderstood how you were applying it. I apologize for including you in the examples, and I stand corrected.

You may now flog me with your noodly appendage if you wish.

Like would be an understatement. I'm usually not a fan of the whole 'cute' thing in general, but, this one, man oh man something about baby yoda hits me right in the whatever it is in the brain, that's the cutest thing I've ever seen. And they are not using him/her as just a prop or McGuffin, which is great too.

How do you know about that... :D

You know what? I'm going to give you that Kumbaya moment. I want to be a better example in the post-Trump America.

I retract my "cram it" and "ain't gonna buy your product" statements earlier. And to Imran, I apologize for my "f off" statement some months back that I can't remember the specifics about. I send you a virtual hug. I'm not a hugger and maybe you aren't but dammit I want to be in a better America.

I also hope to remember not to post when I'm operating off of fumes from pulling weird shifts and getting crap sleep. :redface: <-- I hope the redface emoji conveys embarrassment...

Was Gary a part of that discussion? No idea here, just saying that I know I have no recollection of it, which means it's highly likely that I simply didn't read it. I go through periods where I read this board multiple times a day, and others where I'm not around at all for a week or more, and I don't have time to "catch up" from when I was last around. Gary doesn't strike me as someone who is a consistent everyday reader either. If he was in that discussion, then that's another thing entirely. But if not, I'm not sure it's fair to assume he knows that he is speaking to a part-Catholic audience, let along part-pro-life Catholic audience. I know I wouldn't have known that myself.

I actually believe he started off the previous brew-ha-ha as well with a similar comment.

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Wow, but hopefully this is the first domino in a rapidly increasing collapse to all this bullshit.

As an aside, I can't imagine the machinations Trumps handlers are going through right now to placate him. There are going to be some potentially amazing books that come out of this election.

You beat me too it. I am sorry for that shitty comment too. People need to be able to say what they want and if I want to boycott products or services that is my decision but I should keep it to myself. Sorry Gary.

I applaud this moment of togetherness. Well done gentlemen.

Agreed. Only one left.

GROUP HUG!!!!

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Meanwhile as both GOP Senator's in Georgia are pushing the SOS to resign, a letter was sent to the SOS signed by all of the GOP congressional reps asking him to not certify to he has investigated election fraud. Here's the thing. They as well as the Senator's were in the election. If the SOS doesn't certify, then none of them are elected.

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Btw, the addressed the letter to "George Secretary of State."

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Wow: "I was asked to lie about Hunter Biden, admits Ukrainian businessman. Hares Youssef claims he was promised a US visa and legal immunity in return for information that would damage Joe Biden’s presidential campaign https://t.co/ZhntN0LjLo

— Josie Ensor (@Josiensor) November 9, 2020

On second thought... maybe we SHOULD keep investigating the election.

Postal worker featured by Republicans as evidence of vote tampering admits he made it up; GOP donors gave him $130,000 https://t.co/UlOqChJN5j

— Timothy Burke (@bubbaprog) November 10, 2020

If it's not obvious by now, literally everything this admin says liberals are trying to do, this admin has already done.

But, both sides or something.

I'm sure they were just flipped by the Deep State or something

SI

Wait. Wait. Waitwaitwait. Wait. Waitwaitwait.

*squeezing my temples*

With early indications that the Supreme Court may sever the mandate bit from the ACA while otherwise leaving it intact and affirming the preserving the pre-existing conditions portion...

...isn't the end result here that the ACA -- from the perspective of the American citizen who needs health coverage -- is actually going to be improved in the process?

Is there a legitimate possibility here that when we look back on the Trump presidency, one of his greatest lasting accomplishments is going to be building upon Obama's signature piece of legislation to make health care more attainable for the average American?

Or am I reading this wrong?

Sign me up for a little apologizing too. I was in a bad mood from work, and anything that looks like someone forcing their religious views on someone else is a great way to get me riled up. Sorry for my part in this.

For the record, I was raised Presbyterian, became an atheist in my teens, moved on to agnosticism in my late thirties, and after a spiritual awakening of sorts in my late forties, I now firmly believe there is a God, even though I doubt I'll ever join a formalized religion. I'm more of a hippie in the "we're here to learn to love each other and work on ourselves" mode. I also believe in reincarnation. So there's that.

That's already the case. The Supreme Court is listening to arguments that cancelling the individual mandate makes the rest of the ACA invalid. That's the argument the Trump Administration is backing.

Removing the mandate is just going to increase premiums in the long run (as that is what the mandate was expected to help address)

538 is still gamely following the remaining states who are seemingly knocking out 1-2 ballots day. Biden still on track to win (in the traditional sense of getting more votes than the opponent, not in terms of however the Republicans are trying to re-define elections), in Georgia and Arizona. He'll end up with 306. I feel like that should frustrate the legal hail marys, but, I guess it would still only take a couple of states to go rogue.

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Even better. This is a "win" just like the PA order saying GOP observers could stand closer as long as Covid protocols are observed was a win.

Apparently it’s a win in that it was going to be a more systematic recount instead of humans reviewing every ballot as it is now going to be.

OMG. Trump wins popular vote is up to .09 on PredictIt. That's the craziest one I've seen yet. How delusional do you have to be to buy that?

Lindsey Graham looking to augment his coffers after his latest plea for cash was shut down by Ingrahm?

Well people are also pumping the GOP by 10.5 or more margin in the popular vote up to 3 cents.

Apparently thinking 20 million Biden votes are going to get thrown away.

Wisconsin counties are 2/3s through their audit and Biden's lead has increased by 157 votes.