Mine, too. And I had already stopped following the real Trump crazy. These are the more moderate Trump people. They all have attacked the election in the last few days, and are now going to that other sight. I think people on this board is underestimating the number of people that are believing this election was stolen. This is not going to end quietly.

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Pretty good chunk of Democrats believed the 2016 election was rigged by the Russians. Most Republicans believed Obama wasn't born in this country and legally could not hold office. Yes this is worse but it's par for the course too in modern day politics.

Most of those people going to Parler will be back. The whole point of social media these days is to attack people and there aren't many targets on Parler. FFS the people who own is post more on Twitter than Parler.

How many 'centrist' Democrats really want Pelosi gone though? I doubt it's that many.

It's really the left that wants her gone.

Also I've watched CNN for decades. They've never broadcast every single daily WH press briefing and have cut away from press briefings plenty of times well before Trump (granted this is Fox News, but I'm providing some context).

That's what I am saying, Ben. And I believe that number may be light.

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Again, report, not broadcast. The News part here is that his press secretary claimed XYZ. The press conference itself ? That's just the chosen/agreed upon format to inform the press. I might be off, but: they are not all broadcast live by all channels, right ? There is a degree of deciding which are shown and which aren't ?

I really hardly see it as a necessity for the democratic process. Again, i definitely realise it is american tradition and recognize that we in Germany (for obvious reasons) came to a very different understanding of the role that live broadcast 'performance' via broadcast has to play in the democratic process as such.

But maybe it's at least prudent to ask some questions about what type of role it should play in the US. Is it to inform americans or is it to broadcast the White House performance when it pleases them ? I think it's unhealthy to either side to be beholden to the other like that (media/politics). Them both being somewhat dependent on the other imo serves a purpose, so when you have one do whatever the hell they please in terms of conventions/give and take* and the other just play along i find that problematic. Just as i (and the media) found it problematic when the Obama admin limited photographic access and other blocking tactics.

Propaganda replacing Information isn't a trivial problem for a democracy any more than censorship is.

* I mean, has everybody forgotten all the Shit the Trump admin pulled like excluding Journalists from "press gaggles" and briefings or themselves banning TV cameras and live Audio from press briefings ?

I thought for sure they'd file something somewhere today as a "put up or shut up" move to get some momentum, but why show your cards (assuming you have any) if you can get half the country on your side by making allegations? As long as 90% of the elected officials in your party are not foreclosing the possibility of fraud, why shouldt those who follow the party break ranks with the party leaders?

They get MI and PA, Trump "wins."

Sounds like the Trump campaign and the RNC is asking the Republican legislature in Michigan to throw out the results of the election in Michigan too.

— Josh Marshall (@joshtpm) November 10, 2020

And Kemp will do it in GA. We're heading down a very dangerous path.

In GA, though the SecState (who is a Republican) is standing up to a lot of this fraud stuff... which has led to Sen Perdue and Sen Loeffer to call for his resignation.

I think in Michigan and Wisconsin they would do it as well. Because I think those SecStates realize by doing it, they are basically signing off on a literal Civil War (if it happens, I can easily imagine California, NY and other blue states deciding to secede).

You're right, but in this case this issue is deciding not to broadcast it for the express reason of not believing what they say. If we accept it is ok for the media to do that, they can also do it on an issue that we think is true and vital.


No, I thought it was wrong then, I think it was wrong now, I made reference to that as one of my biggest issues with Trump in one of the other threads ... I don't know anyone on this forum who thinks that was ok.


That's the rub though. Who gets to decide what is propaganda and what is important news? I'm not saying they should play it and then not challenge in any way what was said. Broadcasting what actually happened is more credible that reporting it on it without broadcasting it, because you're getting it firsthand not secondhand. After that you can have the usual commentary between people who agree/disagree, present different points of view, and so on. But when you preempt that by just saying 'they're wrong so we're not even going to show it to you and give you the option', then the media have become the propagandists.

This is the point where we find out what we're made of. I don't think they'll be able to get states to go along with this, but if we do the systems is really that broken already.

Wisconsin law doesn't allow it. The electors are legally required to vote for who won the popular vote and state legislature plays no role in the process. I believe Pennsylvania is similar, but I'm not certain.

I honestly think this is mostly bluster and is more about undermining the Biden administration from the start. They're going to kick and scream about a rigged election to excite the base, get turnout in Georgia, and then use the election as justification for blocking anything dems want to do.

This is all just depressing that we let a single con man destroy our country.

they will find it as enticing as Google Plus (RIP)

This is exactly where I am with all of this. We all knew this was going to happen from the White House, but to have high ranking officials support this craziness is really surprising and depressing.

My wife's family are all moving to Parler. Her step dad had his facebook account deleted after a countless number of temp bans. He would laugh about the bans and the stupid shit he would post to own the libs that resulted in the bans, but when his account was deleted he posted about how facebook won't tell him why his account was deleted and about how he lost his work calendar with appointments. Just completely playing dumb and trying to play the victim card.

I have to remember to thank my girlfriend's family for being awesome. I have no looney exposure. Though, it does make those people seem less human to me. Like they're fictional villains.

Edit: The closest I get is comments I see on my friends' posts, from their family and friends. I remember one last week about how Hillary Clinton started a Marxist Lesbian revolution that included paying Colin Kaepernick to kneel.

An associate of mine posted today asking for information about Parler to see if he should start a business page/account there as well. He stays away from politics, so this was a perfectly innocent question.

It turned into a shitstorm in less than 5 posts. He ended up saying he regretted even asking and did a lot of deleting (though I'm not sure if that was just deleting status/comments or unfriending people as well). Very frustrating experience for him.

Doesn't the Parler user agreement require you to pay legal expenses in the event they're sued because of content you posted?

Hey, they claim to be the party of personal responsibility, so seems fitting that they would be required to pay for dumb stuff that they do.

I'm happy for folks to go to Parler.

They've been complaining about censorship on social media for years. Let's see what happens when they've got their own platform. I mean, I think they'll devolve into 8kun batshittery pretty quickly, but I'm a fan of having all the crazies in one box.

Everyone knows that it's 100x easier to keep a cat in a box than it is to try to herd them.

I dunno - I think radicalization is a real danger. But I'm certain that was already happening.

SI

I'm listening to an audiobook about a woman who went under cover into the white supremacy chat rooms and boards. There's also kind of an analysis of how those people find each other and evolve their views. In their own safe space, it grows more rapidly and becomes more extreme. But I don't think that that necessarily means that the "right" thing to do is normalize their views on Facebook and other mainstream outlets. I'm not sure there's an "answer" at all, except fighting them at every turn and trying to prevent them from gaining power.

It's literally ISIS 101 on how to radicalize and recruit extremists to your cause.

I also agree with this 100%. I think it's a coin flip between mass radicalization and the party splintering itself into its own set of purity tests.

I had conservative friends whose judgment I would have otherwise trusted posting articles from The Gateway Pundit on social media today. I'm talking educated people who should be able to track down reliable source data and interpret it.

And I'm like, "What the fuck are you thinking?"

The problem is, I've seen this shit before. My ex-wife was bipolar. I got pretty accustomed to dealing with someone who had a labile grip on reality. What I'm seeing right now reminds me so much of that long, slow slide into delusion that is simultaneously a slow-motion sort of inevitable slide and an explosive collapse of reason all at once. I used to say to my ex, "Hey, I'm worried about you. Hey, you seem to be making some decisions that are out of character for you. Hey, you don't seem to be thinking clearly. Hey, I made an appointment with your psychiatrist. I think you should all have a chat." And then out of nowhere it's, "Oh, you broke into a drug dealer's house and stole his car to protect the kids in the neighborhood."

This feels a lot like that. I think the right has been going slowly crazy for the last four years, and now they're about to have their psychotic break.

Yup. I don’t care if the folks who were already 85% Qanon go over to Parler. My concern is for the people who—as recently as last week—most everyone would have considered somewhere between center right and staunch-but-reasonable conservative. People who had social media feeds that weren’t echo chambers, that were having reasonable back and forths with left-leaning family and friends. It seems like some of *those* folks are going to end up radicalized if fed a steady diet of nothing but information coming from FAR-right sources.

He needs a third state. MI (16)and PA (20) gets him to 268

Wisconsin or Georgia recount going his way would do it.

Georgia will be the third state.

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And then what do we do?

We have a full-on Constitutional crisis and we find out if America really has the stomach for civil war (we don't). Unlimited options at that point; the military removing Trump from office by force or supporting his stay, the former I think. But ultimately if it's that broken, Trump is the least of our problems. If we can't agree to a reasonable transition of power then the republic falls instead of waiting a while longer and then falling.

If that happens and the republic fails those oh so valuable 401ks drop to pocket change as the US loses the honor of the dollar being the gold standard currency. I am surprised by some democrats that brush this off as just posturing by Trump. Maybe it is but the danger of a miscalculation (Democrat’s never do that) is too great a risk if we are wrong. I feel like We are in the Batman Dark Knight Rises movie and Bane and the Arkham criminals are in charge of Gotham City now.

I wonder if the Republicans are setting up some king of negotiation for a transfer of lower. Have a bunch of legal, political, and criminal sticks in the fire, with an offer to drop it all and have Trump leave if the Dems agree to....something. Dems would probably go for it.

The thing that impresses me the most about Tucker Carlson is his ability to be both completely reasonable and batshit crazy in consecutive sentences.

Tucker: We heard you. It’s hard to trust anything. Here’s what we know. - YouTube

Love him or hate him, he's really good at his job.

And the con man isn't even doing it because he wants to be president. He doesn't. He'd be happy to go back to golfing. There's no grand principle or crucial second-term goal here. It's just that his ego can't handle losing, so a whole country is going to (potentially) flush its system down the drain just to protect one dude's feelings.

Trump up to 15 cents on Predict It.

Free Money...Them markets on predictit are great.

Time for the Republican party to sink or swim. They need to fix this before it gets more messy. Think about the 2024 election and dont waste key votes on an election you already lost defending a nutcase.

Why they have any loyalty to the Dumptrain is stunning. All he does is shit on most of them.

Because he's taken over the party and going against him is a political death sentence for any vulnerable GOP member of congress. If he had been trounced and someone like a Linsey Graham had lost their seat it'd be different, but Trump expanding the base to pull in black males and doing fairly well with Latinos is going to feed Trump's power within the party.

This is very likely entirely about Georgia and setting the foundation to go after tougher voter ID laws, ect. Undermining Biden's Presidency from the start is a bonus.

Yeah, if Trump somehow wins from here, then the world burns. Who gives a shit about money in that scenario?

I mean your points are very valid and very likely correct.

I see it as defending a two time popular vote loser and also causing you and your party to lose more of them in between voters because of the lack of trust the party will have if they dont willingly give the concession to Biden.

The head of the Election Crime unit at DoJ resigned because Barr's policy,


They probably won't get away with it, but we're heading down a dark path right now. Now would be a good time for the four GOP Senators that have accepted the election results to force McConnell's hand a bit.

He doesn't have to win, it just has to get ugly enough for that price to go up more and sell at a profit. Seems like a decent bet.

I more meant that this is a reason to bet Biden, because his price is getting so low.

How many more days of this nonsense before the stock market reacts? Thursday? Friday?

Yeah that is what I am wondering too.

I'm trying to think of a realistic scenario if Trump did steal it. Talk of states seceding are bluster, I think. Not that California wouldn't seriously attempt it, but realistically it's a legal pipe dream and 270 million is still a lot more than 40 million. There would be protests in the street for the better part of a year making BLM look like childs play (especially if we start to get a handle on COVID in January) and serious civil unrest, but I don't think that really moves the needle. Countries that dislike Trump will still dislike Trump but will rely on American trade and business just as much as they did before.

I don't think unions have enough skin in the game to make a dent with nationwide strikes (and you'd probably find in some the majority of their members are Trump supporters anyway). Maybe you get a few principled mega businesses move operations to Canada or overseas, but they are all beholden to shareholders and could never pull out of the US market without immediately killing themselves either. Lots of people go home to their original countries or try to move abroad, but then hey, that's a net positive in this scenario to the perpetrators anyway.

I guess you are hoping the military rises up as one and deposes him, but then are they willing to fight in the streets? And while the Joint Chiefs think Trump is a buffoon are they really willing to see a literal civil war play out if they oppose him?

So outside of massive protests on a scale the world probably hasn't seen and a lot of upheaval, what exactly terrifies me if I'm Mitch McConnell looking at this in early December 2020 deciding whether to throw the weight of the GOP behind an attempt to just reverse results in a few key states? I mean if you just don't accept election results in 2020 we aren't having free and fair elections in 2022 or 2024 anyway, so fuck it right?

Nice thought exercise here.

If it was 270-268 I would be worried about some shenanigan's (e.g. faithless electors) but it's all drama, distraction, conspiracy theories etc.

The focus should be on the 2 GA senate races (and AK?) and how to give Biden 2 good years.

I always wondered how the Nazi party became a thing. I mean, I read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, but it still seemed abstract and academic.

Just reading Twitter and Facebook, now it starts to make sense.

The Nazis never got anything close to a majority in any election. To have a comparative situation here, we'd need Trump to do something like dissolve Congress and have it blamed on someone else. That kind of thing might yet happen in our future, but we aren't there yet.

That's because Germany had 5 or 6 political parties. The numbers would have skewed differently if there were only 2 parties.

Sure, but it's also possible the Nazi Party wouldn't have even risen at all in that scenario. That sort of Monday-morning quarterbacking of history could have any number permutations as outcomes, and quite likely would have ended up much differently than the history that actually happened.

Social media election theory:

** Homeland Security launched a sting operation involving literally millions of ballots due a watermark placed on the ballots by the federal government not being present. Some of the versions of this claim that the majority of ballots cast nationwide were fake, and that the National Guard is recounting them in a dozen key states. The particularly amusing part of this to me is that the federal government has no role whatsoever in state ballots so this one can't even get to the starting line.

I've also been recently informed that voter fraud is very much a thing, because that's exactly what liberals claimed Russia did in 2016 (no it isn't), and that the Democratic party is 'bold and full of communists' - its complete lack of Communist proposals notwithstanding.

The fun thing about not being particularly partisan in either direction is you are really in the crossfire, getting it with both barrels from bot directions during times like these.

It is both exasperating and frightening at the same time. Rational thinking seems like a lost tenant to both parties at times, though much more on the right. At least to my as neutral as possible position.

I don't disagree, the right definitely has more of it at the moment. That often happens when you've lost but struggle processing that fact.

You have captured my feelings except the part about it being surprising and depressing. I know it is weird but I feel just a great sense of calm overall. He told us what he was going to do. He explicitly stated that he was not going to accept the elections. We just watched the GOP in the Senate casually explain away why we the public misunderstood their clearly stated 2016 positions on confirming a SC justice during an election year. That is on top of every thing else that has happened in the last four years. The saying "When they show you who they are, believe them." applies here. I think the calm comes from the fact of seeing this all before in a different context.

It reminds me of the friend or family member who's spouse has cheated on them over and over and over again. Every time you asked the friend/family member about the cheating, they offer a weak explanation as to why that is just how the spouse is, it is the friend's own fault for not being enough, how they have to allow it for the sake of the kids etc. You present the hotel receipt? The spouse just happened to be there on business. You saw the spouse at the movies with someone else? That was the spouse's cousin.

Eventually, the friend turns on you for constantly bringing up the cheating and trying to break up their happy family.

I think it's unlikely to succeed, but the fact that we've gotten this far is scary. Removing Esper because he opposed sending the military to stop the riots, GOP authorizing Trump to challenge the election while not also adding "but I've seen no evidence of anything that suggests this wasn't a fair election," GOP believing the courts they packed will eventually give them the election, etc.

The thing that scares me most is that they know they can push HARD and get little resistance. This isn't the 1800s. Very few people are going to give up a cushy way of life to support a civil war. They know that. In a worst-case scenario where Trump ultimately "wins," yes there will be riots and death, but it will be small scale. We won't fall apart as a country (yet) because people will still have their basic way of life unthreatened.

I just don't like that we're trusting that the proper order of the world needs to be reaffirmed by a relatively small group of people who can turn the whole thing on its ear if they want. The classic bully move - shove us to the ground and bet that rather than coming up swinging, we walk away shaking our heads.

What's going on?

Minnesota get out and vote!!!

— Eric Trump (@EricTrump) November 10, 2020

I'm guessing he screwed up an auto-scheduled tweet that was supposed to be sent last Tuesday.

Is it possible this is all a big distraction to take away the fact that the SC hearing on the ACA is today and all everyone is focused on is the election?

It appears that Republicans will probably never concede in general again, now that House races are being lost 80-20 with the GOPer claiming "fraud"

It was:


*twitter fraud
*the actual reason they lost the election
*an example of the brilliance that runs in the family
*a legit post
*Twitter's fault for not posting it on time.
*a massive conspiracy that election days were swapped.

My priest is getting dragged in his Facebook comments. He's über Conservative, thinks the radical left is trying to destroy the world, vehemently anti-lockdown, hates the current Pope, thinks global warming is fake...

He posted that the election is over and we should pray that Biden listens to God's guidance. There's 200 replies raking him over the coals.

It's amazing how American Catholics have traded God for Trump.

And Biden is a practicing Catholic while Trump doesn't know how to hold a Bible and can't name a single Bible verse.

Don't forget the larger implications of the Pennsylvania case (which would not change the result, but could set a very problematic precedent). There's always a short game by Trump and a long game by those egging him on/riding his coattails.

So of the 70 million votes, how many of those are true Trumpers and how many may not like him that much but are automatic republican votes?

The words "practicing Catholic" and supporting abortion do not go together. Catholicism is not a-la-carte - you either believe and practice what the church says or you don't.

Now that does not preclude him from being president or being a better person than Trump or anything else that anyone wants to argue over - I'm not here for any of that - just making clear the fact that just because he attends mass doesn't mean he's really practicing the Catholic faith.

So from oral arguments today it seemed that both Justice Roberts and Justice Kavanaugh were skeptical that Congress's decision to end the individual mandate penalty was a desire to kill the entire law. Kavanaugh especially seemed to think this was a clear case of severability.

Having a private belief and enforcing that belief on others are two different things.

You're essentially talking about half of all Catholics here, FWIW.

Spoken like a true dumb ass. I’m Catholic and you don’t speak for me.

wowzers

What an embarrassment.

Pompeo just now: “There will be a smooth transition to a second Trump administration."

— John Hudson (@John_Hudson) November 10, 2020

If that's the bar the number of actual practicing Catholics is incredibly small since I'm willing to bet a large number of self described Catholics have had premarital sex, use contraceptives, and/or support gay marriage.

No it is not a private belief - it is the teaching of the Catholic Church. He doesn't have to be part of the Catholic Church - if he chooses to do so though and wants to call himself a Catholic then he has an obligation to follow the teachings of the church which means he would not support abortion and would not then direct any money towards supporting any organization such as Planned Parenthood that supports abortion which would be his decision to make.

If he wants to support abortion or companies that deal in abortion that's his choice but that also means he is not practicing the Catholic faith and that's all my point was.

Sadly, yes there is a large percentage of Catholics that don't follow the catechism of the Catholic Church

Is this the priest in Providence?

I would agree with you although doing something once doesn't mean you are not practicing - everyone commits sin and in the Church you always have the ability to confess those sins and receive absolution for them. But if you are knowingly and willingly doing those things and not atoning for them then yeah. I don't make the rules - I just know what they are.

I'm pretty sure neither of the real candidates on the ballot this year (sorry, Jo, Kanye, et al) are 100% " believe and practice what the church says or you don't". So, on the one hand, you have abortion weighed against a man who not only fails the two greatest commandments but on such a spectacular level that he could be held up as example of what not to do. He's certainly an idolator (sure, we're all idolators to some degree but I think we can also agree that there's significant degrees between run of the mill selfishness and putting your name in giant gold letters on all of your buildings) so I think "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" is well off the table. And a man who has spent much of his adult life sewing discord for his own personal ends certainly fails at loving one neighbor as yourself. Never mind the adultery, lying as readily as he draws breath, etc. But, hey, abortion!

SI

Pompeo says there will be a smooth transition to a 2nd Trump administration.

FFS.

Adds "Mike Pompeo" to the growing list of people to never allow near the levers of power ever again.

SI

The Pope disagrees with this narrow thought process, btw.

Ah yes, quite the Catholic response there.

Regardless I fail to see how this is a controversial take - the Church says abortion is morally wrong. If you don't agree then you're not following the Church.

Tell me how you can be at direct odds with the teachings of the Church but still be practicing it's faith?

How can you be at direct odds with anything and be practicing it?

That's quite the response to nothing I said. Where did I mention Trump or anyone else or who or how you should vote?

All I said was that Biden is not practicing the teachings of the Catholic Church which he isn't by definition.

I look forward to you telling me how the pope says this.

Which was in response to the idea that Catholics had traded in a Catholic for Trump

SI

Francis has been pretty clear that no single issue makes someone Catholic or not Catholic.

And as of 2018, the Catechism of the Catholic Church prohibits the death penalty.

So... if the only practicing Catholics are the ones who slavishly follow the Catechism (and if that is the standard, then what is the point of Confession?), you are going to be talking about a very tiny amount of people worldwide.

You have the rule book so far up your sanctimonious ass you forget Christ was all about loving one another and we’re all children of God, not about classification to rules...that’s what got him crucified.

It’s like rain on your wedding day...

I respectfully suggest we not turn this into a theological debate, before the thread has another blowout and we say more things that we'll later regret. We can always make another thread for that if need be.

First of all just because Pope Francis or any other pope says something it does not make it an infallible statement nor is the pope allowed to change church teaching just by giving his opinions.

Now, Francis is correct - Catholics cannot be concerned only with abortion. They should be concerned with those other issues as well. Whether they are "equal" in concern is not an official teaching of the church, that is Francis' opinion but regardless they are obviously important.

In fact your post speaks to the idea that one must be concerned about ALL of those things - which would then make it very hard to claim that Joe Biden is practicing his Catholic faith when he is opposed to the very first item in your quote "the dignity of a human life, which is always sacred"

So you are right, it is not just one issue that makes you Catholic - it is a large group of them but it is also a requirement that you follow all of them and not just the ones that win you political points with your side (as you did happen to include in the quote from Francis)

The Coming of the Third Reich by Richard Evans is the book you want. He covers in detail how the Nazis came to power. Rise and Fall is good as a primary source, as it was written by a journalist who was in Germany during this time so it's a good picture of the day-to-day life as the Nazis rose to power, but his 'history' is not very good.

The other two books in the series by Evans, The Third Reich In Power and The Third Reich At War, I also highly recommend. But I will warn you, if you have any faith in humanity, those two books might completely destroy it.

Thank you Gary for this comment! Because you spout your know-it-all dribble you have assured that I'll never buy a Wolverine Studios product, ever. You're not Chick-Fil-A, Hobby Lobby or Walmart so you probably shouldn't be pissing on potential customers. As Qwikshot said, cram it up your ass!

Yeah same here.

Map porn:

This map shows you which parts of the country swung to the left or to the right v 2016. Georgia and sub/urban Texas really stand out to me:https://t.co/UjFVpxDIk2 pic.twitter.com/LV7cKifENS

— G. Elliott Morris (@gelliottmorris) November 10, 2020

The Texas counties on the border with Mexico also stand out. Also, take a look at California, New York and Florida.