I don't know, but she's been more successful at communicating whatever it is.

I live in NY, so I'm not that active in the primary. By the time it gets to me the decision will probably already be made.

Trump must be loving all the mentions he is getting. This has got to be fueling his hate.

FWIW, don't think there is enough time for candidates to respond to questions.

I'm liking Gov. Bullock so far.

Probably because they are giving it all to Bernie.

10 people is way too much.

Williamson looks awfully pale and powdery.

Hmmm, a HoN with Williamson vs Warren?

I think Williamson is just fed up now and is reverting to rehearsed talking points.

If Sanders were president could he do anything?

Confirmed

No.

Obvious with the GOP, but he would have plenty of problems with Dems in the Senate. They'd never kill the filibuster for him.

A friends daughters student loan payment is $700 a month. How does a 22 year old start a life with a hole the big to dig out of.

Work an extra job?

Or 2

What degree (if any) did she get?

Williams is bat shit crazy, but she is right. Young people would do a lot more with that money than people who are already wealthy.

Another angle that I have yet to hear mentioned is if college was free people spending the money they are putting aside for college funds could spend it on other things. We put away about 20K per year for our kids college. If we didn't have to do that I would spend that money on projects for the house, travel, maybe get a vehicle a year newer, etc...

The classic responses to this from the right make me crazy. They always claim people knew what they were doing, etc...

Then you have the people who are sour grapes because THEY paid off their loans so everyone else should have to also, or they worked while they were in school so they wouldn't have loans. My wife and I both had loans and worked hard to pay them off. I would love for people to not be saddled with that debt.

Oh and this is rather late but I thought DNC chair Tom Perez gave an excellent speech before the debate opened.

If I voted today Buttigieg would be my guy.

Sure there are exceptions but yeah, for the most part, they probably knew or should have known.

I thought Warren and Sanders did well. Buttigieg and Bullock did ok. Delaney had some moments.

No one else really did much of anything to stand out in a positive way.


Hickenlooper trying to say he's more progressive than anyone on that stage while arguing to keep soldiers scattered all over the world and driving home policy views that fit democrats 20 years ago was interesting.

Beto did better, but is out of his comfort zone in these debates.

But many didn't have a choice. You are told you have to go to college to get a good job, yet many people have to get the loans to go to college.

Its true that Higher Ed increases the odds for a better career.

No way to tell if it was a good decision or not. What's the story?

She got it in Biology. She will work in research or a lab at a haospital

No idea, not my story.

Going worked out for us, and even though I paid ours back I would hold zero resentment towards anyones who was forgiven.

Increases but in no way guarantees. Not remotely close. But the point is who benefits from putting young people $100,000+ in debt before they work a day in their life? It's not good for the economy. I guess it's good for maintaining our military numbers which is just another form of class separation.

Saying that it's something everyone else had to deal with so figure out misses the point and is off base anyway considering the rising cost of college compared to wages. It's similar to asking why someone in their 30s is renting instead of buying a home.

Those who don't want to address the issue of student debt also tend to be against raising the minimum wage, which raises the question of how you expect the debt to paid off?

You can start a company, drive it into the ground, go hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt, and then more or less wipe the slate clean by declaring bankruptcy. However, if you're a college student, get a degree, but can't find a job to keep up with payments quick enough you're screwed. Welcome to the American Dream.

You know how we ended the Soviet Union? Forcing them to spend money on the military. Someone said we spend more on defense than the next 10 nations combined. Sometimes you dont learn from history.

If college were free there would be no incentive for individual colleges to do better. If college was 100% covered by the government it'd just lead to private schools upping their tuition even more than they do now. I'm all for state governments spending more on public schools, but I hope no one is paying $700/ month on loans to an in state school.

Student loan debt and the declining worth of "a college degree" have been topics of discussion since I was in school in 2005... loan companies and "schools" pull some shady stuff, but there's still way too many people out there paying for private school educations that have a negative EV. I was lucky enough to have somewhat wealthy parents & be accepted to a number of schools... and I chose to go to the in state university because it meant I would graduate with zero debt. (There's also probably way too many employers out there who require "a degree" without any thought as to where it came from, but that's a slightly different tangent...)

I think the points that the college loan/free college debate rarely mentions, or at least I rarely hear (maybe I listen to the wrong voices)is that

1) Not all careers need a college education.
2) There is a major shortage of work force in the trades for well paying jobs.
3) If college was "free for everyone" yes there would be an influx of spending from parents on goods, but it would also displace a large number of workers. As many young folks would go to college if for no other reason than to avoid working for a while.

Again I've talked about my specific situation a bunch. I hire field technicians and teach them to repair equipment. An 18 year old with a HS diploma and no education can make $60k his first year and have a company truck and good benefits. 5 years in my top field guys are doubling that number.

Tarcone's example is a perfect one. A BS in Biology is a worthless degree. You can teach with it or get a MS or PHD or use it as a base for med school, vet school or law school. Otherwise it has no benefit. She should have chose better.

If we didn't decide to have free high schools decades ago, the US population would never agree to such a thing now.

Complete BS, I have a BS in Biology and make six figures. I was able to get a few 50k job right out of college and that was years ago.

To not have a degree will hamstring you at some point, having a STEM degree is crucial.

The real truth is that in this day and age you may have to go where the jobs are or get a masters (I do and the job pays for one).

You have to have a plan though. I’m in Eastern PA, you throw a rock and you can find a bio job in food, beverage or pharma.

It won't go anywhere, but I like Bullock's "wish-list economics" stuff. These debates sometimes feel like just a competition on who can promise the most free stuff.

While STEM degrees are Ideal.

Any BS is will open doors.
Most white collar jobs require a BS.
Does not mater what it is, just it is a requirement to apply.

It is a catch 22.
Most collage degrees are not worth the cost.
But you can not even apply for a front office job if you do not have one.

Which collage did you go to :p

College degree holders earn much more, on average, than do high school grads.

If everyone got STEM degrees there'd be no where near enough jobs. Other degrees can open doors just as well. Every year there's another survey where CEOs are praising humanities grads for being flexible and creative.

Unless you're getting a certification, I don't think the degree matters. Skills matter, and you can learn useful skills in a lot of different fields.

Opening the door degrees are fine and the college experience is worthwhile beyond that, but nobody should go $100k in debt for it. You can still avoid that through some combination of really kicking ass in high school and attending your state school.

I tell students that it is much better to major in what you love because you will do better at it and, thus, be better positioned going forward.

In this day and age it seems like an undergrad degree is largely a four-year test of your abilities to pay attention and take direction. $10-20K total seems appropriate for the large majority of institutions.

I think people have to look at the landscape of higher education for what it is. There seem to be a few options:

1. Attend a trade school and start out with a nice salary for a 22-year old. Then use experience to carve out a nice career.

2. "play the game" in high school, do dual enrollment courses for college credit, get good enough grades to qualify for in-state scholarships and try to cut the cost by 50-75% using scholarships and college credits earned in HS.

3. Don't get the best grades or credits in HS, but go to a community college or JC for two years to get your gen EDs taken care of on the cheap. If you do well there, you could qualify for scholarships or state aid to go to a local state school for your last 2-3 years. This also cuts the cost by 50+%.

4-year college is not a right for all people, but there are many ways to get a 4-year degree without having massive debt. You can do items 2 or 3 above, you can have a job, take less classes and use summer school to fill the gaps. You can work a higher paying seasonal job in the summer and winter to help pay your expenses/some of your tuition during the school year. But, if you don't do well in High school, don't dual enroll in some classes or overturn a bunch of stones for college scholarships - 4-year college (esp at private schools) is going to be extremely expensive.

I have a pretty broad cross-section of financial class friends. My work friends are higher wage professionals and they tend to take option 2. My Little League baseball friends tend to be more middle class and a few of them have had their kids go to the CC/JC route and then finish the lass couple years at a state school. There's no reason to end college with 70+K in student loan debt if you aren't wealthy enough to afford it. And just giving a blanket amnesty to people who didn't plan properly is extremely unfair to the 22-year olds who applied themselves in High School or went to a JC, worked while in school and pinched pennies to minimize debt.

(just for the record, I know you were joking)

A long time ago, and in a place far,far, away I went to the University of North Dakota.
I have a BS in Comp Sci and another in Applied Mathematics.
It was worth every penny to me.
I spent most of my life as a programmer and loved it.

But it sucks for kids now who will end up in dept to there ears no matter what they major in.
STEM grads have a better chance.
But what if your interests are somewhere else?
You still end up 100k in debt but without a realistic chance to pay it back.
You should be able to follow your interests (finding out what they are is part of collage) and not end up in dept for your entire life.

You sure about that worth every penny comment? :D

It just feels like an I want my cake and ave it too argument. You can study whatever you want. And pay for it. Or you can study what pays and get paid. You can work and have no debt or you can no work and have debt.
But the response seems to be I want to have free college, get a lib arts degree and make millions.

It sounds like conversations with my daughter.
And I want to fly around like a bird, princess. But this is real life. Grow Up.

I think one of the biggest rubs is that practically every American adult would agree with this advice and yet it seemingly never gets effectively expressed to the kids. As you're implying, kids should be introduced to these realities before they even start high-school but instead we spend that time blowing smoke up their asses. I had absolutely no clue why I was going to college other than I knew it was culturally expected.

I walked away for collage with a couple of thousand in loans. (working part time/summer)
My daughter is screwed, she will end up with about 100k in loans.


YMMV

Why is it bad to have a more educated populace? I understand History and English majors won't make big bucks out of school, but isn't it important to have them in society? What's wrong with the field technician you hire having spent a few years learning about these things before starting their career?

I think you just have to be smart. If your goal is to have History or English major - then you probably shouldn't go to the most expensive private school out there. Instead, you should focus on getting good grades/scholarships (which I'm guessing a History major is a fairly decent student) and consider the CC/JC route if those don't pan out. I guarantee if someone is interested in Literature, History, English or a similar major, they have the ability to get good enough grades for scholarships either out of HS or after 2 years at a JC.

It's not bad to have a more educated populace, but I think the question here is extremely loaded against certain types of education. A few more years working is education, just of a different sort. I don't think a college degree is in any way automatically more valuable than a few years of working on the job, the life experiences that come with that, etc. I'm very much in favor of learning being a lifetime thing, but often the most valuable learning doesn't happen in a classroom.

I hope tonight's debate gives us more to talk about regarding the candidates.

I absolutely agree that a lot of students are spending too much for college. Some of that is choice, some of that is decreasing spending by state governments, some of that is too high an expectation of services, some of that is bloat at colleges, particularly in administration.

But the degree isn't a problem unless you're talking about advanced degrees. English majors not only can survive, but they can make good money in a variety of careers. We don't think of the lawyer who starts a business as having wasted their education, but for some reason we see that as a problem for the humanities major that does something outside of their college field of study.

Learn skills and you'll be fine whether that's at a four-year college, a two-year college, a trade school, whatever.

And one last point, students should absolutely go to the most expensive school if they can. Those schools are the prestige schools and having a degree from them opens doors. The bigger problem is the lower ranked , high priced schools.

To employers it is. Even low paying jobs require a 4-year degree.

There are a lot of reasons why college is expensive but a big one is governments keep cutting funding to it. Boomers got their degrees, raided all the coffers of the government, and are trying to fix it by fucking the next generation over even more.

Lets also not forget about all the rip offs out there. The University of Phoenix, etc...that promise a masters in as little as 15 months or whatever. My wife, who I am insanely proud of, is a VP/GM for a Warren Buffet company. She interviews people with degrees from Wharton, etc...for jobs. A "degree" from one of these online places is worthless in her world. a quick google search shows it costs 15K per semester and it isn't worth the paper its printed on in most cases.

Those schools target military members hard and the government allows them to get away with their scam and fraud. But kneeling is the issue.

I always assumed a lot of those degrees were targeted to people who wanted a higher degree to qualify for a promotion or ones that couldnt take a traditional college because of mostly life

That's changed now though with the proliferation of online programs from colleges and universities with reputable brands/brick & mortar presence. The for-profit scam colleges should be shut down and outlawed imo.

They target people by making them think those degrees will accomplish that, but in reality they don't.

At least in the Army, "schools" like Phoenix and Excelsior have been promoted to soldiers as great way to increase your chances of promotion by maxing the educational component of the promotion process.

They get your GI bill money, you get a worthless degree and promotion points, and then when you get out you find that a degree from those schools is valued less than a high school diploma. So, if you actually have the time to see it through, it can help speed up a promotion into the Jr NCO ranks. However, that's not worth anything close to what you're paying from your GI bill to those schools.

And the current administration is doing everything they can to protect and de-regulate these schools. But increases in defense spending means they love the military right?

What were people cheering during Bookers speech?

Has anyone say cap medicine prices? I heard not letting them raise prices above inflation but when isulin is already $350 a bottle, thats useless

I've only heard the usual "negotiate the cost of drugs".

Biden is not the man the dems want to run. Trump will abuse him in debates.

For those in favor of medicare for all, how do you feel about someone like Donald Trump being in charge of your healthcare? Even if a Bernie Sanders wins in 2020 and signs medicare for all, there will be a republican president again.

Everytime someone says "Right Wing Talking Point",

Drink

I have not researched this and am only guessing at numbers.

But wouldnt a flat tax rate of, say, 20% and cutting defense spending by 50% and then capping pharma prices pay for free medical care for all?

I dont think we would make it through the debate.

It's not like the President will be validating claims. How do I feel about Trump being in charge of Social Security and Medicare? I'm fine, certainly I'd rather have them, even with Trump, than not.

And I'm more of an incremental, public option guy than a single payer guy.

Well quick googling says the US spent 3.65 on healthcare. Cutting defense spending in half will pay for about a tenth of that.

I still think my, "Cheap insulin and no cell phone telemarketers" plan is enough to win.

As a type 1 diabetic who may end up paying a lot of money when I hit medicare just to survive, Im for single payer.

OR open up health insurance like car insurance. Let competition drive the prices. I imagine that would work a lot better than what we have no in this country. Maybe Im wrong on that, but competition seems like a great way to lower costs.

"I was the Vice President, not the President." doesn't seem like a winning slogan.

Good for Booker for calling him out for selectively taking credit for Obama's successes, while trying to pass blame for.his failures, but then he goes back to the unity well & I don't think that's the place for that argument.

Did Booker just say shit hole countries?

Yes.

He should've added a "so called" before it, but I assume everyone will get the reference.

That was the cost to Americans total, not what the federal government spent, including insurance costs, FWIW.

Thats a pretty big problem that this country spends that much on healthcare and our system sucks.

No shit, pardon my French.

Evidence from all the other developed countries in the world suggest that simply choosing any other system at random would likely cut our costs in half:

Kamala Harris likes getting emotional and going over her time limit.

I don't think she is coming off well

Interesting, I see it as passion and it is what that party needs.

I think Biden sounds terrible.

Drink every time Harris goes over the time limit.

Half the teachers I know get their masters degrees this way and it certainly does what it asvertises

One of the few things we've probably agreed on politically. Biden is the ideal candidate for the Trump campaign.

Trump will struggle in debates against the other top Dems in this race.

+1 She started off well when she had a chance to go back & forth at Biden, but the other candidates (especially Gabbard) attacking her did seem to get to her.

Much better & feistier debate tonight. We'll see if Biden's poll numbers bounce back up before debate 3, I'm sure they'll fall after this again.

Gabbard had the good exchange with Harris, but I actually think Yang has made the best impression among the also rans. Won't matter for him in this race, but I assume UBI will be in half the Democratic platforms by 2028 at least. (2024 if the Dems don't win this one.)

Harris did not come off that well compared to the first debate. Biden did fine considering he is leading in the polls and everyone was going for him. I also don't see him as being easy debate fodder for Trump. Certainly, he will be less vulnerable than a socialist who says everything is free and we are raising taxes.

Sooo... over 2 nights Warren, Sanders, Buttigieg, and Booker did the best by a lot. Biden didn't do well, but did enough to really hurt him. Harris got shanked by Gabbard (deservedly).

I really like Yang, but he doesn't have a path. Him and Inslee would be great in a cabinet.

You realize Biden's numbers jumped back up to pre-debate 1 numbers before this one? Harris' bounce dropped by half-ish.

https://t.co/ilnGWUFnka is forwarding to https://t.co/xhHqly329S

while https://t.co/XQ4LMMWfl9 is forwarding to https://t.co/1sUYVD7FRH

— Adam Parkhomenko (@AdamParkhomenko) August 1, 2019

Yes. I placed it poorly, but that's why I had the again. Biden was able to score some cheap points in the second half being feisty vs de Blasio & Gillibrand but then butchered his close. It's not even a top 10 Biden gaffe, but looking like you don't understand the difference between a website and a telephone number is a bad look in 2019. :lol:

I think De Blasio made a better moderator than debater last night with all the questions he was asking Biden.

I think I'm confused. This whole part of the conversation started with a discussion about jobs that specifically require no college at all. The last study I saw on the subject stated that only about a third of job openings are expected to require a 4-year degree, another third some college/2-year, another third no college at all. The kind of jobs I thought we were talking about were the HS-only type. A not-small amount of them pay above the median US income, and a lot more pay just below it. They aren't jobs that a lot of people think are glamorous (truck drivers, plumbers, technicians, etc.) but there's a lot of quality work out there from a pay standpoint that doesn't require a 4-year degree, some of it fields where the demand just can't be filled. Those are the types of jobs where I don't personally see a good reason for people to have a degree in 'Random Not Particularly Practical Major'.

I don't want ANY government official in charge of my healthcare. I don't care if they are Republican, Democrat, Green, Libertarian, etc., etc.

Agreed. And this is where my "mostly conservative" ideology starts to lean towards Libertarian. I want (virtually) no restriction on health care. A large part of the cost is created by the barrier to competition in my point of view.

The example was used up thread about the cost of insulin. You can travel to other countries and buy insulin, manufactured by the same companies making the stuff you are getting now, without a prescription, for a fraction of the cost.

I wont derail the whole thread but I think our entire system of health insurance needs to be blown up. I think required health insurance actually hurts the poor in ways not immediately visible.

Speaking of student loan debt, I came out of law school with over $800 a month in student loan payments (only 15 more years to go...). I recently was curious and went to look at what tuition is at Emory Law School (where I went) and it is DOUBLE what it was when I was there. How in the world are people supposed to pay that?

And yet government run healthcare, VA and Medicare, consistently poll higher than private insurance.

Worth noting that these other countries with cheaper insulin don't have this pure competition model.

Maybe they should pick a college other than Emory.

Consider whether every single one of those other countries offering cheaper insulin without a prescription are doing so under government run universal healthcare systems, or some sort of no-insurance no-government free-market chaos.

EDIT: Larry beat me to it.

European countries put a cap on medicine prices. IMO, the companies jack up the prices here, where there are no caps, to maximize the profits they lose out on in other countries.

It makes you wonder what would happen to everyone else's healthcare system if the U.S. stopped subsidizing them. (Not that we should care about that).

I was around $100k combined law and undergrad, but working in public service helped a lot. I got around $15k forgiven from John R. Justice program, and another $15k or so from public service grants from my law school. And fortunately this was around 2006 when student loan interests were very low, I'm locked in around 3% with none of it private loans. I still have around $35k to go, with the next payment due in 2026 or something, so I just throw money at it whenever I can.

There's also the 10-year public interest forgiveness program, where you pay a % of your income and the rest is forgiven after 10 years. But you have to make sure you're doing it right, and that you've consolidated with a qualifying loan type, or else you find out 8 years in that you have to start over again. Edit: By the time that was available it didn't really make sense for me, with the interests rates as low as they were on my loans, and with my salary getting better over the years, I'd rather just throw varying amounts at it then have a fixed 10-year payment schedule.

A ton of people found out the hard way. People just weren't adequately told when they started out what exact income based loan they were supposed to sign up for.

I am assuming I found the poll you are referencing here, Gallup 2015, and it notes that out of pocket cost plays a major role in satisfaction with coverage.

Heck, when I am not having to deal with the doctor, I am completely satisfied with my health care plan covered by my company. When I need to go to the doctor and pay my deductible, I am not. So my answer to the question would vary based upon that moment in time.

I can only be 100% honest here and say I am not familiar enough to know the specific's n other countries health care.