The Cuba thing probably does sting because they kick our ass in so many things. Lower poverty rate, higher literacy, better life expectancy, and lower homelessness.

Castro is a shitty despot crushed by an embargo and still laid the wood to America here. That's not a compliment of Castro, more an indictment on how pathetic America is in some areas.

The issue isn't Castro v. Batista. It's that the Florida's huge Cuban population is specifically there, separated from their families forever, because they, or their parents, fled Castro. First it anyone who had to do with Batista, then it was the middle class professionals after Castro gutted their livelihood, then it was thousands of unaccompanied minors whose parents didn't want them shipped off for re-education. Praise of Castro is understandably offensive to them. Anybody whose life improved through Castro is still in Cuba.

The comments - and the types of economic systems and revolutions Sanders admires -also touch a fear held by some non-Cubans that Sanders is willing to throw the middle class out with the bathwater if he can burn everything down in the process. (The comments and rhetoric about how only rich people rely on the stock market show you were his line of the "rich" really is.)

Yeah a lot of people care about massive new spending initiatives that aren't clearly explained where the money is coming from. Even some of the other Democratic candidates seem to wonder. I know what's $28,000,000,000,000? But but but the other guys do it too!

I mean this is basic politics here, especially when it comes to Florida. The anti-Castro stuff may have minimized over the years, but it's still around. You don't stoke that fire. The Florida Dems are pissed because this is going to make their jobs harder.

I think the best explanation is that Bernie Sanders is trying to win the way Obama won... not by micro-targeting swing states and narrow demographics, but by moving the battle lines completely and overwhelming the electorate so the red/blue border becomes, itself, irrelevant. I confess I thought it was a risky AF play for Obama to make at the time, but it effectively worked. Sanders believes his path is to just double down and agree with everything he has ever said, maintain his aura of "consistency" in doing so, and try to transform the election because he's... authentic, or something like that. Most everything I see fits with this mentality.

Remember though Obama had the 2008 financial meltdown to help him make his case. I also believe Trump has a higher approval rating than W did at the time.

I don't know. We entered a few endless wars and everyone got real quiet on the budget. Been pretty quiet on those farm bailouts too. Not to mention those tax cuts.

Seems like the only time deficit gets brought up is when it relates to health care.

I get it. I just don't think he said all that much in praise of Castro. Nothing more than what Obama said. It was incredibly tame and I wonder how many people actually listened to the clip.

The literacy thing gets brought up because it mirrors what happened in our own country. Slaveholders forbid slaves from learning because it would empower them. Remember that Batista literally had a nation filled with slaves like the old South. American companies used this slave labor gleefully (also some lingering hatred toward Cuba is from when they turned that spiggot of slave labor off to American corporations).

With that said, I just find it weird we focus on him. Considering this country's love affair with brutal dictators past and present, I'd put Castro far down on the list. Mubarik was a much more brutal ruler just died. Hillary called him a "family friend".

I notice the web clickthru ads are already going whole hog on the "No Socialism" message.

I think you're overthinking how much this country gives a s*** about Cuba's literacy rate.

What we have is a self declared socialist who honeymoons in the Soviet Union praising authoritarian communist regimes. And when that guy is running for President there is going to be criticism.

I know this country doesn't care. They didn't care about Cubans who were enslaved and used as labor for American corporations. It's all just politics, no one really cares about the people involved.

I think the big thing with Castro was his proximity. Hosni Mubarak was halfway around the world. Fidel's Cuba is just slightly over 100 miles away at closest approach from Florida.

Obama was perceived as a moderate by many of the independents who voted for him. It remains to be seen, but I don’t think that will be the case with Sanders.

Well we supported Batista who was 100 miles away. Montt, Branco, Somosa, Pinochet, Baby and Papa Doc were all close too. I'm leaving out a bunch too.

Then the Contras, Atlacatl Battalion, and so on in Central America. Heck, the Wikileaks cables pointed out that we were funding a death squad in Honduras still.

Lets face it. Castro took out a US-friendly regime that provided slave labor for American corporations. That is why he is considered bad. Those other brutal dictators and death squads don't matter they benefited us in some way.

This is a country that gave Henry Kissinger the Medal of Freedom and we're upset a candidate mentioned that Castro's literacy program was good.

Watching MSNBC. They all seemed a little panicked that Bernie will win.

It is what it is. If Bernie wins, I believe Trump's odds go way up. But one way or another, we'll figure out if we want to be the United Socialist States of America with new warts and all ... or good old USA with current warts and all.

Putin must be chucking every day. Com'on Biden (or Bloomberg or Steyer), win one.

What Sanders said about Castro is true, but not politically astute. If a candidate said “I know Hitler was a bad guy, but when he was in power the trains ran on time”, it probably wouldn’t help his campaign either.

I'm rooting for Biden to kick ass in South Carolina.

If Biden wins SC, then Pete and Amy would be doing the country a pretty big favor by dropping out before Super Tuesday (Amy should have dropped out already).

If they don't (and I think Biden will likely win SC - unless the debate tonight goes really, really bad for him), then they are paving a Sanders plurality at least.

Bloomberg seems a much bigger impediment to Biden (and vice versa). If he had a choice, I'd guess Biden would want Bloomberg gone.

Also if Pete continues to fail, would it be smart for Biden to announce that he'd seek only 1 term and have Pete has his VP? Would vanquish some of the talk of his age and give the party a young person on the ticket. Then again, I feel like it's going to be hard not to put a woman on the ticket as VP.

Batista also never wanted to aim nuclear missiles at the US.

I actually don't think a lot of the others like Buttigieg.

I think Biden would look more favorably on Klobuchar as a VP. But he has made no secret that he'd really like Stacey Abrams on the ticket.

It's no secret that Amy hates him. She resents the fact that a person with relatively little accomplishments would dare stand on the stage with a senator like herself and criticize her.

What about Kamala Harris? Or does her record as DA screw that up? Abrams would be interesting but not sure she would want it.

The US never tried to invade and overthrow the Batista government.

Abrams has been receptive to being a VP, at least in public statements. Biden, nor any other Democratic nominee, needs a VP choice to win California ;).

Biden today said he is running for US Senate, and then said you can just "vote for the other Biden." Age is kicking his ass.

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I figured she'd be Bloomberg's pick. She has been bought and paid for by him already and gives him some pushback on decades of racist behavior.

The crowd didn't love Bloombergs Russia jab at Bernie

I think Warren is being full of shit right now

I agree.

Lively debate. This is fun so far

Good lord moderators, take control

Not sure who the crowd is boo'ing.

Probably a Bloomberg fan who wasn't a billionaire.

That wasn't a good line by Bernie insinuating only billionaires like Bloomberg.

This debate has left me with one question:

Who's the Libertarian candidate this year?

Bloomberg probably paid for people to sit in the audience and boo Sanders

Bernie’s answer to the NRA question was not good trying to turn it into a Biden legislation question on unrelated stuff.

Bloomberg is better prepared and is doing better than last time. Not sure its good enough though.

Tickets for this were like $2k each.

Reparations? Really? Pandering are you? As an Irish american I want reparations for all the work my ancestors had to do for free to earn their citizenship.

A lot of fire at Bernie today (as the front runner he should) and I don't think he's handled it well at far.

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Yeah, that came out of the blue. Don't think that is a winning platform for Steyer.

We'll all be smoking weed soon.

Not a bad thing ... just saying

Pretty much every Democratic candidate has endorsed reperations in one form or another.

Not sure why this is a surprise.

Right. And you are in South Carolina. If you don't think black folks have been talking about and advocating reparations you haven't been paying attention.

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Sure. So why does Steyer think its a winning platform for him?

Finally, the coronavirus!

In order for Steyer to go anywhere he needs to win the black vote, and he actually is polling really well in SC. So reminding the voters that he is for reparations is good (though all of the programs other candidates are saying to benefit African Americans specifically are partially reparation plans).

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Bloomberg would be worse for this country than Trump would ever be.

Bloomberg is the Dems worst nightmare

China question

1) Bloomberg - eh
2) Biden - good answer
3) Warren - Bloomberg's taxes WTF?

Warren is a gadfly, tiresome ...

Bernie's eyes are about to pop out of his skull.

Yeah, he's getting clobbered on Cuba.

Someone needs to bring up his Russian commie musical.

This is and should be an us against them debate.

If the dems nominate Bloomberg, the democratic system is dead.

If the dems nominate Bernie, I feel there is hope for our democracy

In the United Socialist States of America.

I think this kind of framing is what is really hurting the Democrats right now. They really unity this election and not divisiveness no matter who is the nominee.

IMO the winner so far in this debate is Trump

Honestly I was a strong Warren supporter at the start of this whole process, and shifted over to Bernie after multiple disastrous debates early on. Warren did so well in the last debate and I believe she's doing well tonight (lol at Edward calling her tiresome), and Bernie is an absolute train wreck tonight. I say that as someone who is only considering Warren and Bernie and who strongly supports most of Bernie's ideas, but I think I'm ready to hop back on the Warren train, for the reasons I favored her initially... "I've got a plan for that" is a meme, but she does have details to support her progressive policies that Sanders does not, and if she isn't flailing about on the debate stage I'll head back over her way.

Of course, this is all a thought experiment as the race will be long over by the time Indiana votes and I would love to see either one win.

One thing that I have to give Sanders is that he is a very passionate, and dominating public speaker. He simply talks over, around, and through everyone, and sucks the air out of the room.

Pete trying to talk over Bernie by trying to answer every question Bernie posed in his time was really poor look by Pete. He's obviously asking a bunch of rhetorical questions.

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He's not wrong on the point he made, and his attempted defense and answer to the debate question felt accurate and appropriate to me. Everyone, including much of the media, is actively ignoring the actual statement he made in favor of "BERNIE LOVED CASTRO'S ENTIRE REGIME".

I love how they are asking foreign policy questions now.

Bernie getting sucked in by it and the two of them yelling back and forth incoherently until a moderator finally steps in doesn't really feel good for him either, but I do agree with you.

I relate with this completely but I vote on Super Tuesday at least.

That "Why do I stop" exchange by Biden was pretty good. I chuckled.

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You do realize this is a terrible comparison, right? You can just look at the Irish land grants that were provided as well as the fact that black families were almost completely shut out of the Homestead Act to see the difference.

I feel like Biden knows that this stage, and this state is his, and is playing into that perfectly.

Horrible debate. Horribly moderated. Shame on CBS. No one came out of this looking like a winner. Yikes. What were those random digs by the moderators at some of the candidates? And the DNC should be ashamed of the awful, very clearly pro-Bloomberg crowd. 2k a ticket?! Who is paying for that other than the ones supporting billionaire candidates.

And can we start talking about how Biden has dementia? My father has Alzheimers, and he sounded exactly like Biden does, loses train of thought, can't finish thoughts, early on.

The ones supporting millionaire candidates?

Yes I do. But why do I have to pay for something I had nothing to do with? Reparations is a bad thing. Maybe treat blacks equally? Maybe drop some businesses in their neighborhoods that creat jobs? Why just give them some money and be done with it.

Reparations are not what needs to be done.

I am biased but think Biden has done really well tonight and has come off fairly good.

This was a weak debate. And I agree about Biden. I feel like he is just not all there.

I would rather see Bernie and his heart problems than Joe and his brain problems.

That... Sounds like reparations to me. Or at least part of a plan for reparations.

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I agree. I missed the first 20 min but I think Biden did well.

Bloomberg having an extended discussion with Amy at the end. If by some miraculous chance Bloomberg wins, I can see him picking a Pete or Amy as VP.

Another fun debate.

Does it? Or a free market system that exploits a class that has been lacking in the free market system? Why does offering loans to minorities to bolster their economy and provide legal jobs sound like reparations?

Oh I agree for sure. And I'm biased against him ;) But this was a good showing for him.

Because that's literally a part of many reparation plans (low interest loans or even grants for black businesses).

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Just don’t like Biden’s mannerisms... he always tries to be a “tough guy” and what’s with the constant finger pointing? This debate was another train wreck IMO and hate to say it - winner of this debate, like most of the primary debates, is/was Trump. I’m trying real hard to find a likable Dem but I don’t think it’s going to happen.

Too many candidates. They all try to talk over each other. Needs to be more limited, I guess Super Tuesday will do that.

Let's hope South Carolina does that.

Being a fan of Ron Paul (and not as much a fan of Rand but at least I like hearing his ideas) I don't like to be against bigger debates or excluding based just on polls. But with that said really no reason at all to hear from Tom Stayer and probably not Amy Klobuchar either though some will probably disagree with that. Eventually it will be down to 2 or 3 and then should be more organized and less hand raising where they sadly look like 3rd graders trying to get the teachers attention.

Well the next Democratic Debate is on March 15, 2020. Almost 2 weeks after Super Tuesday. I'm betting we'll have a few drop outs by then.

According to CBS on who dem viewers liked

45% Sanders
43% Biden
40% Warren
38% Buttigieg
31% Klobuchar
25% Bloomberg
24% Steyer

Doesn't add up to 100% so guess multiple picks allowed.

CBS News Instant Poll: Democratic Voters Who Watched Debate Say Sanders Impressed Them Most | Video | RealClearPolitics

The longer all of Buttigieg, Klobuchar, Biden, Bloomberg and Steyer stay in the race, the more states Bernie will cleanup on with his 25-30% base vote. This is going to be Trump 2.0 where all the moderates cancel each other out, while a more polarizing candidate with a strong 25-30% keeps bagging delegates.

Pretty much the exact scenario that I had feared all along, tbh.

Newest polls today show Biden up big on South Carolina. I do think that a landslide Biden win could change momentum going into Super Tuesday. Biden is close to tied with Bernie in Texas, and second in California. If they split the big states in delegates totals, it could save the Biden campaign. Of course, there is still the Bloomberg factor dragging Biden going forward.

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If Biden can win by around 10 (or more) it would definitely change the narrative and put him in a really good position going into Super Tuesday. Of course this was always Biden's strategy to catapult SC into wins since the beginning. We just seem to get too far into the horse race bit of it.

Oh and James Clyburn just endorsed Biden. He's winning SC; the question is by how much.

If Biden wins SC big, then Pete and Amy should drop out (and I suspect that the DNC will (very secretly) point this out to them. Amy is an institutionalist, and Pete still has a future to worry about, so I could see each of them being receptive to that idea).

If Biden then becomes the obvious "not Bernie," then I think that a LOT of Bloomberg's support will go to Biden. I think that Bloomberg has been a bit of a placeholder for undecided Dems.

dola: and if it is true that Bloomberg's entire run was motivated by "not-Bernie" then he should drop out, too.

double dola: I say all this as a guy who is very meh on Biden, but who thinks that Bernie would very likely lose to Trump and would be a bad president if he did beat Trump

PredictIt markets are reflecting this scenario very closely, right now. I bought Biden soon after Nevada wrapped up at 11c, this morning he opened at 17, and as of now he's at 19.


Same here.

Wonder if Biden would be open to Biden/Bloomberg and the money that brings?

But Bernie is going to get some of those votes of people who drop out, too. I saw some polls that had the 2nd choice of Biden supporters as Bernie. The media had this same narrative in 2016 where if you add up all the non-Trump votes they can stop him by rallying around one candidate. But that assumes the voters all rally around the one remaining candidate and that Bernie gets none of their voters.

Biden needs to get a woman VP and preferably on the young side not a older billionaire.

I just don't see Bernie as being the "2nd option" for anyone but Warren. I don't know how your first option could be Biden, Pete, Amy or Bloomberg, but your 2nd is Bernie.

It has taken me a while to come to terms with it, but there are apparently a fair number of people doing exactly this. I assume it's among people who don't pay very close attention, are not particularly motivated by issues, and so forth.

This board is a good example. Electability* seems to be the overriding concern of many here. It seems consistent that a person could think Biden is the most electable followed by Sanders.

*As defined by the DLC in the late 80s and early 90s.

I think it's all name recognition. It’s Biden and then the only other name the recognize is Bernie.

Not sure where this narrative started. Bernie has the highest favorability in the party and popular policies. Why wouldn't he be a second choice to most candidates? The second choice for Bloomberg fans is likely Trump.

YouGov tested 2-way match-ups. Sanders & Warren each beat all others, nearly tie one another.

vs Biden: Sanders 48-44, Warren 49-41
vs Bloomberg: Sanders 53-38, Warren 52-38
vs Buttigieg: Sanders 54-37, Warren 52-34
vs Klobuchar: Sanders 54-33, Warren 50-31

Sanders 44-Warren 42

— Taniel (@Taniel) February 17, 2020