Seems like we've gotten to a point where we're only a few generals saying no away from a military coup to make Trump the Emporer.

Which means that even if it doesn't happen this cycle, it's only a matter of time until White Nationalists have a generation of Generals to institute a coup.

But you know, Hunter Biden did something so both sides and all that

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But it is not the exact same. One of the examples are people posting their conspiracy theory on Twitter, the other example is filing dozens of lawsuits and claiming a rigged judiciary and widespread fraud because the courts won't buy in to their conspiracy theory.

It's the same theory. And they are in essence validating the GOP's filing of lawsuits by arguing that the same thing benefited the GOP.

Random nutters on the internet vs the President of the United States may be one of the more tenuous "both sides"ism I've seen.

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I'm not sure I understand. I'm not "both sides-ing" anything. It's just a bad look, period, when it reinforces the argument you've spent the past 2 months laughing at and calling treason.

Or do we think it's only valid to call for an audit of McConnell's and select other GOP Senator races based on "GOP ownership" of the voting systems? Doesn't matter to me whether it's a lawsuit or a bunch of high profile Twitter people. It's the same argument without evidence, that I can see.

I agree with you, Ksyrup. I do think it is much worse that the President is spreading these conspiracies versus random Twitter people. Still, it is not wise for progressives to spread the same kind of poison as the Republicans are spreading.

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I don't see Dem AGs and members of Congress signing their names to investigate it, that's a huge difference to me.

It's random nutters on the Twitter. Are they speaking for Democratic party leadership? So, who cares?

Nevermind. Not the point I'm making. This isn't about who is pushing it, just that it's being pushed. It's all harmful trash if it's based on nothing.

By random nutters so who cares?

Someone cared enough to post it here.

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Yeah but why should I? If it was someone in leadership than sure call them out and move forward. If it's just random blowhards on Twitter... Well have you met Twitter?

I don't think it needs to be carried by politicians to matter or to take root amongst regular people. There are plenty of personalities attaching their names/comments to it that I think a segment of the population is taking it seriously. I don't know why that in and of itself isn't a problem, even if it doesn't end up making its way into the court system. This is how susceptibility to conspiracies starts - even if this one fizzles out.

Then just pretend it's a random thought that doesn't deserve its own thread but is tangentially related to an existing thread. You don't need to care or see the ridiculousness of it or think it's an issue... or comment on it.

If it had taken roots among the left, it would be hoisted by a politician or two, no? It isn't like Dem politicians don't jump on random nuttiness if they feel it could benefit them with groups. Otherwise it's random "people" on Twitter and I don't see why I should care about this out of hundreds of conspiracies a week.

Ksyrup was warning against going that route. How exactly is that wrong?

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I'm wondering what trump would be like if he drank heavily...

Kelli Ward is the gift that keeps on giving.

Arizona GOP chair urges Trump to heed Flynn and 'cross the Rubicon,' alarming people who get the reference

There are 4 batshit crazy republicans in this states leadership, (Gosar, Lesko and Biggs are the others) Why the hell some among the more sane and stable in the party here don't smack her down is baffling. Is a career in politics really worth selling your soul for by remaining silent to this crap, when you know the damage it is doing to the state/country you are elected to serve?

I would have expected KY to be right there with AZ in all this. It's so strange because AZ is so much more middle of the road politically, than dead red KY. But KY's AG did not sign on to the TX lawsuit. None of the politicians in the state supported trump in that lawsuit either. I am sure if Bevin were still in charge it would be crazy town all over, but right now, it's pretty calm and even keeled, which is insane for KY too. Very unexpected. Mitch must have everyone by the throat here.

It literally is only these 4 whack jobs, Governor Ducey is over it and it is going to get zero traction from the AG, but Ward, who was too extreme to even beat out McSally in the last primary and those 3 house reps are true pieces of work.

Arizona, going complete blue for president and in the senate is definitely middle of the road, but those that are extreme right, mainly in the rural counties, are truly special. Ward is from Yuma and that town has quite a few like her.

I vote Kelli Ward not hot.

Re: Yard signs.

There was a house in my neighborhood with a (impressive) Trump 2020 Flag.

I drove past today, and they just put a 4 over the last zero, making it a "Trump 2024" flag.

We seem to be moving into acceptance.

Minus you have to stare at it for 4 years, but i guess if I got fleeced by the marketing President for a bunch of swag I would want to get my monies worth too.

Since it's a Trump flag, odds are it was made cheaply so there's no way it'll last 4 years.

Given the way that he's handed out pardons and the way that he's acted since the election, the opinion pieces that have come out about the dangers the he faces regarding the pardons, etc, I think that it's increasingly likely that he resigns after Jan 6 and gets Pence to pardon him from whatever crimes he may have committed to try and protect him as much as possible from what surely will be coming.

I think it's questionable that Pence would play along. It would likely end any chance of Pence being President in the future.

It's interesting to watch the GOP come to terms with the monster they've spent 4 years creating though. He's doing everything in his power to take down the party and the political careers of as may GOP as he can on the way out the door. January 6th is going to be a pointless shitshow that's going to get some congressional GOP members primaried.

Except that how many times has this been said in his presidency? There are no limits.

My father in law, life long, gun owning, NRA supporting, Trump voting republican, told me last night he regrets supporting him and the way he has handled losing the election was the last straw. Said he always knew Trump was a horrible person, but liked his policies. Said he can't take it anymore and it has become an embarrassment.

wow Lathum, guess there's some hope for those of us with Trump voting family members.

They finished the signature audit of mail in ballots in Cobb County, GA. today. Out of 15,000+ ballots, there were 2 problems. A wife signed both her husband's and her ballot. That was it. Cobb was literally mentioned as the center-point of signature fraud in the Kraken lawsuit. Signatures were 99.9% correct.

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I hate that this doesn't share on the phone well, but this is a link to the report from GBI and SOS office
https://twitter.com/JustinGrayWSB/st...973375488?s=19

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GA audit of signatures in Cobb County found 2 problems in over 15000 ballots. One, a wife signed for her husband. The other, the front was signed but the back wasn't.

FRAUD!

SI

Every vote counts. Those 2 votes prove Trump won.

I think Jphillips must have me blocked.

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Narrative against Cobb County is that it isn't Fulton County and/or audit was compromised.

Of course it is. There will never be an acceptable outcome that doesn't involve Trump winning.

No, it will never be acceptable. But it is literally the county brought into lawsuits on this very thing, and the audit was done by the GBI. Of course, law and order Republicans suddenly don't respect law enforcement.

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he shot a 129

For the record: "Brad R" doesn't have a brother.

...The consent decree signed by the “Secretary”, with the consent of Kemp, is perhaps even more poorly negotiated than the deal that John Kerry made with Iran. Now it turns out that Brad R’s brother works for China, and they definitely don’t want “Trump”. So disgusting! #MAGA

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) December 30, 2020

Conservatives here gotcha journalism because they're so bad at it.

lol

The dangers of leaving tabs open and not hitting refresh.

"Just allow us to find the crime . . ."

LOL

That stood out to me as well. I’m no attorney but I thought a crime needed to be committed before filing suit.

I just got off the phone with one of my customers. I heard people talking in the background that Joe Biden was connected to the Nashville bombing and he's going to be given the option of conceding the presidential race or going to jail.

How is the tin foil hat business these days? I imagine you are doing quite well.

Glad to hear, Jphillips. I think highly of you, and it would hurt if you had blocked me.
Following up on the Brad Raffensperger thing: his office has long said he only has two sisters, but ends up he actually has another sister and brother. Still the Raffensperger that works for China is not his brother.

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I have no one blocked. I find even the most difficult of this board to be way more interesting than the general public, and most everyone, including you, I consider friends.

Uh what? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Louie Gohmert suggests street violence after lawsuit fails - Chicago Tribune

At what point are treason charges warranted?

I grant a lot a leeway to filing charges in court, but when you're starting to advocate violence in the streets then you probably should be arrested.

Why the rush to play the treason card on this kind of thing all the time? It's nowhere near treason.

I do agree that it is criminal. I'm not sure of the exact charge, I would think reckless endangerment at the very least and probably worse, but treason is a whole other animal.

Well I think calling for violence to overturn a lawful election is beyond "reckless endangerment"

Gohmert is basically asking people to violently overthrow the government. If that is not treason then what is?

Probably is sedition. Definition and some more info I found on it:
A revolt or an incitement to revolt against established authority, usually in the form of Treason or Defamation against government.

“Sedition is the crime of revolting or inciting revolt against government. However, because of the broad protection of free speech under the First Amendment, prosecutions for sedition are rare. Nevertheless, sedition remains a crime in the United States under 18 U.S.C.A. § 2384 (2000), a federal statute that punishes seditious conspiracy, and 18 U.S.C.A. § 2385 (2000), which outlaws advocating the overthrow of the federal government by force. Generally, a person may be punished for sedition only when he or she makes statements that create a Clear and Present Danger to rights that the government may lawfully protect (schenck v. united states, 249 U.S. 47, 39 S. Ct. 247, 63 L. Ed. 470 [1919]).
The crime of seditious conspiracy is committed when two or more persons in any state or U.S. territory conspire to levy war against the U.S. government. A person commits the crime of advocating the violent overthrow of the federal government when she willfully advocates or teaches the overthrow of the government by force, publishes material that advocates the overthrow of the government by force, or organizes persons to overthrow the government by force. A person found guilty of seditious conspiracy or advocating the overthrow of the government may be fined and sentenced to up to 20 years in prison. States also maintain laws that punish similar advocacy and conspiracy against the state government.“

Treason requires there to be a declared enemy of the United States. If you aren't taking sides against an entity Congress has declared war on, it's not treason.

Sedition is closer, but I don't think that would be a winnable case either. I definitely agree it's a serious crime, this is just about where to slot it.

Someone will have to react to his words to actually commit a crime, be it assault, murder, terrorism, etc. Otherwise, all it is is incitement, which is legal through the 1st Amendment.

Hawley is a lawyer with degrees from Standford and Yale Law. For him to make this statement is so dishonest it is sick. He knows that this law was passed three elections ago, and he knows that by law any challenge to it would have to come BEFORE the election. You can't wait till you lose election to then challenge a law like this. He is well aware, yet he is using peoples ignorance of how law works against. Even single one of these pricks should be disbarred.

.⁦@HawleyMO⁩ sends email to fellow Senate republicans tonight, responding to ⁦@SenToomey⁩ and defending his decision to challenge the Pa EC vote.

He says they should debate on the Senate floor, not through press release and email. pic.twitter.com/padJmCjV1n

— Leigh Ann Caldwell (@LACaldwellDC) January 3, 2021

We should not count enough votes so that Trump wins. It's never been about fraud.

Is it really as easy as having control of Congress and simply deciding not to certify election results to stay in power as long as you like? Everything I read says these challenges are unlikely to work because Dems control the house. Does that mean if Republicans controlled the house they could legally change the results of the election at this point?

Scary that this line is about to be crossed. The next time they're both controlled by one party we literally will be staring at a coup and I'm unsure how that plays out.

Thank God that the Democrats control the House because I could see an attempt to overturn the election having a chance at succeeding if the GOP controlled both houses.

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Just...wow.

They may really have to drag this clown out of there.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...?itid=hp_alert

Imagine if he was a republican that all other republicans supported?

I was just reading this. It's just incredible to think that an elected official can brazenly do this. Like, you know, just go back and 'fix' the vote for me, would ya?

I would have loved it if the Sec State would have responded with, Mr president, what you are suggesting is election fraud and punishable blah blah blah.

You need to listen to the audio. He sounds like a 5-year-old who isn't getting his way.

The president trying to intimidate a state secretary of state into rigging the election, and doing so in a recorded conversation, isn't even the top news story on most news sites I'm pursuing this morning. It's just being normalized. It's just part of politics now.

I teach the Idaho Code to police officers sometimes, and they're always amused by this very old statute, that most states have a version of, that make it illegal to arrest state legislators on days when the legislature is in session when they are heading to work. It's to prevent the governor or other force in government with enough power to order the police to arrest and detain political opponents in the legislature on days of important votes. I don't know when in American history this was a legitimate concern, or if was a statute passed with paranoia, but it feels like we're in such a time again where that could at least be attempted.

It does all seem like a return to the Tammany Hall days

https://twitter.com/SenSchumer/statu...10744412139521


The this is the Washington Post article. Schumer should play the tape on the Senate floor.

We're at a point where all that stands between us and a dictatorship is a handful of Republicans in critical posts. There are plenty of GOPers that would gladly sacrifice democracy in order to maintain power.

United States Constitution has similar protections. In colonial days, the King would sometimes have legislators arrested and shipped off to Britain to stand trial if the legislature in question was getting too fractious. Idaho obviously wasn't around in colonial days, but the original protections were designed because in living memory that HAD been a problem, and most states have enacted similar statutes because the Constitutional protection applies to Congress, not to state legislatures.

Amazingly I think we’re back in the situation that whatever happens, the next two weeks or so will be seen as huge when looking back at the history of the US.

And assuming that democracy ultimately does prevail, Trump absolutely has to somehow be made accountable in the courts for his actions.

I'm skimmed a couple of law review articles about it, I think there's always law students who find these statutes and state constitutional provisions and want to explore the enforceability of them.

Our statute has never been used as far as I know, but it contains some qualifying language. I believe say, a DUI arrest would not be covered, and I'd be happy to dive into the whole thing and defend such an arrest challenged by that statute if it ever came to that.

I always find it funny when people think a thing like this is a big "gotcha" on Trump, when absolutely nothing is going to come of this unless it is the Georgia SOS facing problems, legal or otherwise.

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How do you have a democracy in a 2 party system if one side doesn't believe in it?

Another takeaway from this is that the constitution did not want to give people power and the founders sure wanted a king.

Not true. The founders wanted the presidency to be the weakest of the branches and didn't forsee the consolidation of power we've seen starting with Jackson. The original intent was to leave the executive somewhat weak and assumed the legislative branch would want it kept that way.

They tried to recruit Frederick the Great's brother to be our king. They wanted to call the President, "His Highness". They insured the vast majority of the population had no say in deciding our leaders and that a President could serve without term limits. I get the narrative they had to push, but they created an extraordinarily powerful position that could only be chosen by a handful of elite.

They gave our President not just control of the government, but the position of head of state. A position that controls execution and enforcement of laws and can make crimes legal at any time. They also have control of our military. Now maybe they were too dumb to expect someone might come along and abuse it, but that is a hell of a lot of power to give someone that you want to be the "weakest" branch.

When Raffensberger tells Trump that he had the FBI and GBI to look into allegations and they found nothing, Trump said "then they must be corrupt." When Raffensberger says the courts have not found any evidence to overturn, Trump said "I don't care about what the courts say." Law and Order my aunt Fanny.

Guilty as charged. Over the last month or so, whenever I talk with my mother about politics this is exactly the take that I have. This is politics nowadays. The frustration for me has been the pushback against any criticism of the behavior is more extensive than the the behavior itself.

Yep. It's DESPICABLE that the audio was released. THAT's the takeaway for the bad behavior in this sad episode.

At this point, it could have Trump murdering someone on it and the crime would be the release of the tape because Trump didn't know he was being recorded.

Btw if the reporting was right that last night's letter from all the living Defense Secretaries was Dick Cheney's idea then dang I actually have to give Dick Cheney credit for something.

Ew- that makes me feel all dirty

SI

Excerpts from Liz Cheney's memo to House GOP.

NEWS --> I've obtained the memo House GOP Conference Chair @Liz_Cheney sent to her colleagues re: Jan 6th electoral objections. She says proposed actions by some Republicans would set an "exceptionally dangerous precedent," calling the commission idea "even more problematic." pic.twitter.com/qy0cTySNqP

— Guy Benson (@guypbenson) January 3, 2021

Of course immediately after the highlighted portion is a "both sides" accusation.

I always want the next day (today) to be the day that unusual heroes stand up and take the opportunity to be just that but they never do and the day passes by.

Trump was right about his 5th ave. comment.

Trump's go-to move is to demand that someone else assume all the risk so that he can reap all the rewards. He's hoping other people will throw the election and leave his hands clean so he can stay in office and claim he had nothing to do with it.

There will always be snakes in politics. I have no issue with that. What I always hope for is the people I care about who support Trump to wake up and realize how horribly wrong they were. My father in law actually has, but a lot more still drink the kool aid and will accept no logic argument.

Yup, and he will throw them under the bus the second he has to. It amazes me. Hawley isn't stupid. He has to know this will backfire spectacularly.

He's expecting to ride the Trump endorsement/vote for another 4-8 years. That's the calculus. Even Trump going to jail wouldn't hurt him because it'll just be spun as a vendetta and Trump'll be treated as a martyr. Short of Trump dropping dead and no one being able to energize his base as effectively, I think the all-in pro-Trumpers know exactly what they are doing and that it will benefit them.

I agree with this.

Because the election did not show a total repudiation of Trumpism, there are still going to be politicians riding on the Trump bandwagon for a while.

The timing of this doesn't seem coincidental at all. Nope.

NEW: The US Attorney in Atlanta is departing his post today, after previously indicating that he would not step down until Jan. 20 https://t.co/ZddLNbCYvQ

— Tierney Sneed (@Tierney_Megan) January 4, 2021

What does that potentially mean?

I want a Raffensperger jersey.

Probably was asked to indict Raffensberger and said fuck this.

https://www.ajc.com/politics/politic...MM7EBIMDZNXTQ/

Wow.

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Trump has always struck me as John Cusack in High Fidelity.

Nothing. The far left on Twitter will speculate it's some 8d chess move by principled democrats that will haunt Trump... then 6 hours will go by and we'll never hear about it again.