Tour de France 2006 - Ullrich won't start!

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Critch

So Landis is a strong time trialer and is now the heavy favorite to win the Tour?

Yes, but I wouldn't say it's such a sure thing Floyd Landis will beat Oscar Pereiro and Carlos Sastre. The last time-trial of Le Tour de France always ends up being somewhat unpredictable. Even fourth placed Andreas Kloden could still be a darkhorse for the top3, and with that immediately for the final victory, as the top3 riders are within 40 seconds of each other.

Amazing turn of event. First Landis claims he knows what he's doing, giving Pereiro the yellow jersey and 30 minutes back from his loss, expecting Pereiro to lose 10 mins on him. Next he turns out being the one losing almost 10 minutes, being paid back for his own arrogance. Then, Landis attacks and all the guys behind him do the same thing, underestimating a guy with a pretty equal, Tour de France resume. Great comeback, most impresive one I've seem in the 14 Tours I watched. But I kinda see Pereiro's comeback from 30 minutes down as the more amazing achievement, especially given that Sastre's teammate Jens Voigt helped Pereiro to achieve it.

[bulletsponge]

Is Floyd Landis the American with the bad hip? if another American wins this after the Lance domination the French are going to go balistic!

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by bulletsponge

Is Floyd Landis the American with the bad hip? if another American wins this after the Lance domination the French are going to go balistic!

That's the guy. But since he isn't Lance, I doubt they go balistic. In contrast to Armstrong's calculated victories, Landis did something heroic on the bike (of course, he didn't even think about it doing it the old-fashioned way until his plan failed, but that's another story).

[thealmighty]

Wow. Just wow!!

[thealmighty]

Oh, I have been watching The Tour for 20 years but have never studied the history or anything, so I have a question for those more knowledgable than I.

Lance always got to cruise in on the last day. None of his rivals ever tried to take it (though he was often too far ahead anyway). What happens if Sastre, Landis or Pereiro (or someone) goes into the final day leading by only 12 seconds or so? Do the 2nd and 3rd place try to win or does it still become an annointing?

[cartman]

Originally Posted by thealmighty

Oh, I have been watching The Tour for 20 years but have never studied the history or anything, so I have a question for those more knowledgable than I.

Lance always got to cruise in on the last day. None of his rivals ever tried to take it (though he was often too far ahead anyway). What happens if Sastre, Landis or Pereiro (or someone) goes into the final day leading by only 12 seconds or so? Do the 2nd and 3rd place try to win or does it still become an annointing?

If it is close, there will be a race to win. The last time I remember this happening was in '89, when LeMond had an absolutely perfect time trial and beat Fignon by less than 10 seconds to win.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by cartman

If it is close, there will be a race to win. The last time I remember this happening was in '89, when LeMond had an absolutely perfect time trial and beat Fignon by less than 10 seconds to win.

I think so too. Especially with the bonus seconds for the first three to finish (-20, -12 and -8), it could happen that the teams of Landis, Pereiro and Sastre will try hard to get their guy to win the last stage, or in case of having the yellow jersey, making sure there won't be a bunch sprint.

[Craptacular]

I need to find out which part of me had those thoughts and listen to it more often.

[JW]

It is fascinating to read BBC's "As it happened" commentary on today's race. You should start at the bottom and read up.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/othe...ng/5197634.stm

My favorite comment.

1327: Landis has achieved his first goal of hauling in the back markers of the breakaway group - Padrnos, O'Grady, Sinkewitz, Tankink, Le Mevel, Gilbert, Garate, Righi, Auge and Paolini. Skinkewitz had a comedy double-take as the American cruised moved up to his right shoulder - he just couldn't believe Landis had caught them.

[wbatl1]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I thought Hincappie had two top ten finishes in the Tour.

Don't get me wrong. I was surprised to hear him touted as a favorite by OLN, though I understand their motivation to do so. I felt that Lance's last Discovery team had lost too much from the year before. It made his last Tour win really all that more impressive in my book. The team didn't ride the field into the ground as it had in prevoius years, and Hincappie was the last rider to lead out Armstrong. He, well the whole team except for Lance, even got dropped on a climb midway through a stage last year.

Landis I felt differently about, as his defection to Phonak was one of the big factors in the weakening of Discovery.

His tour finishes were almost all by account of his being the last or second to last lead-out man for Armstrong late in his career. Nobody was attacking Hincapie, and he certaintly wasn't trying to defend his place or move up. He just fell into to the spots. He certaintly is not a bad rider, as a bad rider could not have done what he did, but he did not have to defend his spot from attack or even concern himself with his GC position.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by cartman

If it is close, there will be a race to win. The last time I remember this happening was in '89, when LeMond had an absolutely perfect time trial and beat Fignon by less than 10 seconds to win.

That would be an incredible development. I'd love to see a race on the final day. I don't think they've really had anything like that on the final day since LeMond in that time trial. I think we've essentially seen parades since 90 or 91.


I'm going to have to avoid this thread until I've watched my recording, to avoid being spoiled from now on.

[Wolfpack]

If it goes to the last day, will the Champs Elysee turn into a flat velodrome for once? That'll get f'in crazy if so.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

If it goes to the last day, will the Champs Elysee turn into a flat velodrome for once? That'll get f'in crazy if so.

I botched the recording, and then had a company event tonight(rented an IMAX theatre to see Superman), so I missed all but the very end of the broadcast. I'm going to follow up with the BBC's bit and the OLN commentaries.

I was thinking about this on the drive home tonight, and really I think this move ranks up with some pretty epic tour moments. It is in league with Lemond putting 80 seconds on Fingnon in something like 13 miles.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Originally Posted by bulletsponge

Is Floyd Landis the American with the bad hip? if another American wins this after the Lance domination the French are going to go balistic!

Wrong.
It was nothing against Americans, it was against Armstrong himself. Armstrong was perceived as an arrogant cheater.

Landis probably gained a lot of fans yesterday, the French usually love the 'guts and glory' type guys.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by fantastic flying froggies

...it was against Armstrong himself. Armstrong was perceived as an arrogant cheater.

...

Well yeah! Because he was an American and Dominant the French assumed he had to be cheating!

I'm biased because I'm a fan, but I don't get the Lance was arrogant bit. He went out and freaking dominated.... period. He certainly wasn't overly cocky, in that he certainly had what it took to make his point in the saddle. He did act as if he was running the show, the whole show, that last couple of years. But that was on the road, in the heat of the race. If he didn't like you, you weren't getting into a break away. It was petty, but he absolutely had the ability to dictate such things. To the press, I just didn't see him as arrogant.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Well yeah! Because he was an American and Dominant the French assumed he had to be cheating!

I'm biased because I'm a fan, but I don't get the Lance was arrogant bit. He went out and freaking dominated.... period. He certainly wasn't overly cocky, in that he certainly had what it took to make his point in the saddle. He did act as if he was running the show, the whole show, that last couple of years. But that was on the road, in the heat of the race. If he didn't like you, you weren't getting into a break away. It was petty, but he absolutely had the ability to dictate such things. To the press, I just didn't see him as arrogant.

It may have to do with the fact that Armstrong chanced the way riders prepare their cycling season and pick races to win. Armstrong looked self-confident in what he could do and had to do to win the Tour. Fact is that most people in the World associate self-confidence with arrogance. It's nothing French, it's human. And to be honest, the way Armstrong dominated (not the domination itself, but his calculated tactics) made watching the Tour boring. Most cycling fans like the heroic stuff Landis did yesterday (and ironically quickly forgot his arrogant words the past week and how Landis basically planned to win in the Armstrong-fashion). You also have to realize that before Armstrong there was Miguel Indurain, who had the same Tour winning strategy from 1991 to 1995. It even appears that Frenchmen Jacques Anquetil isn't so popular in his homeland, despite being five-time winner, as he is regarded the inventor of calculated winning.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

It may have to do with the fact that Armstrong chanced the way riders prepare their cycling season and pick races to win. Armstrong looked self-confident in what he could do and had to do to win the Tour. Fact is that most people in the World associate self-confidence with arrogance. It's nothing French, it's human. And to be honest, the way Armstrong dominated (not the domination itself, but his calculated tactics) made watching the Tour boring. Most cycling fans like the heroic stuff Landis did yesterday (and ironically quickly forgot his arrogant words the past week and how Landis basically planned to win in the Armstrong-fashion). You also have to realize that before Armstrong there was Miguel Indurain, who had the same Tour winning strategy from 1991 to 1995. It even appears that Frenchmen Jacques Anquetil isn't so popular in his homeland, despite being five-time winner, as he is regarded the inventor of calculated winning.

I guess the thing about calculated winning, is that you still have to get it done on the bike. You still have to answer all comers, and you can't be dropped nor afford to not answer an attack by a legitimate rival. I also find it hard to believe that some of the things that Armstrong pulled off in his string weren't considered heroic. The time trial to Alp d' huez, the resumption of the stage where he had the collision with the fan and other difficulties, his response following the stage in 2000 where he was dropped on the final(?) climb, not to mention the '99 rebound from cancer. I would think he would be somewhat of a heroic figure.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I'm sorry, but every time I see this thread's title, I think "Oh, so Ullrich didn't start. He's going to come in off the bench, though, right?"

[thealmighty]

Was reading a BBC forum. Every third post or so seemed to say that Landis must have cheated to go from dead to miracle man in a day. Too bad that is the landscape of sports we are at these days.

Seems also from seeing a Landis interview that the whole Tour knew what he was going to do (tear it up) and some said to him not to do it. Anyone have more info on this story?

[Desnudo]

Enjoyed watching the race yesterday, but I have to say OLN's coverage was very confusing. Not easy to tell what all is going on and who's who. I suppose they don't cover for the layman.

[thealmighty]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Enjoyed watching the race yesterday, but I have to say OLN's coverage was very confusing. Not easy to tell what all is going on and who's who. I suppose they don't cover for the layman.

A large part of the problem , I think, is that OLN is not in control of the cameras. They never know what shot is coming, how long it will be shown, which group it is for sure, etc....

That said, while Phil is cool and all, he does seem to be wrong an awful lot.

[Critch]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Enjoyed watching the race yesterday, but I have to say OLN's coverage was very confusing. Not easy to tell what all is going on and who's who. I suppose they don't cover for the layman.

There's only so much they can squeeze in between the 40 million adverts per hour, I guess.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I guess the thing about calculated winning, is that you still have to get it done on the bike. You still have to answer all comers, and you can't be dropped nor afford to not answer an attack by a legitimate rival.

Well, I'm not argueing whether it's easier, it's probably smarter, looking at the success Indurain and Armstrong had with it, but it makes for a less exciting race. Indurain's most memorable moment was in 1995 when he attacked his competition in a meaningless stage and at a point of the day they least expected it.

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I also find it hard to believe that some of the things that Armstrong pulled off in his string weren't considered heroic. The time trial to Alp d' huez, the resumption of the stage where he had the collision with the fan and other difficulties, his response following the stage in 2000 where he was dropped on the final(?) climb, not to mention the '99 rebound from cancer. I would think he would be somewhat of a heroic figure.

I probably mixed up heroic for most-memorable. Still, it's widely regard to be more heroic to attack from the start than from the middle of the last climb of the day. I'm not argueing he didn't show his greatness as a rider or say he isn't a hero to a lot of people, but to most cycling fans waiting for the last climb to attack means less than being in the attack all day long. In that regard, looking back, the most memorable Armstrong moment could possibly be the 1995 stage victory. And from a neutral point of view, doing exactly as people expect you to do doesn't add to the excitement.

Again, I don't think you can really blame a self-confident sportsman for knowing what he can and what he can't do. He's a grand champion, whom usually are associated with arrogance over their desire to win as much as they can. In the end, if you're as much as an Armstrong fan as you say you are, I realize it's gonna be very hard to convince you of that.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

...

Again, I don't think you can really blame a self-confident sportsman for knowing what he can and what he can't do. He's a grand champion, whom usually are associated with arrogance over their desire to win as much as they can. In the end, if you're as much as an Armstrong fan as you say you are, I realize it's gonna be very hard to convince you of that.

Not at all. I;m not trying to be all that contrary. I understand where you are coming from. People find the style of cycling that Armstrong used to dominate the tour boring. I actually agree. The only cycling events I follow are the Tour de France, and this year, albeit loosely, the Giro d' Italia. With that in mind Landis' early attack and Lemond's Time Trial are clearly more memorable than most of Armstrong's exploits.

I just find it hard to be critical of a style that is so successful, especially when it requires skill, strategy and team work. I guess notably the 'stress the rest of the field, and attack late' strategy greatly reduces risk.

As for the arrogance. I can definitely see your point there as well.

[Craptacular]

It looks like there will not be a battle for yellow on the Champs Elysees. Floyd finished third in the time trial (behind Honchar and Kloden), but now leads by 59 seconds over Pereiro going into Paris. Kloden passed Sastre for third overall with a great TT. Theoretically, Kloden and Pereiro could fight for time bonuses, etc., to settle second, as Kloden is 30 seconds back, and could get 32 seconds of bonuses plus any gap at the end. I wonder if Floyd will break out the bubbly on the road tomorrow?

[21C]

I have to say that I've been incredibly impressed with the ride of Floyd Landis over the entire Tour. With the odd exception, he hasn't had strong support from the other riders in his team and has had to do a lot of the grunt work on his own.

I was especially impressed with the way he handled himself after the mountain stage when he lost the yellow jersey. He didn't shy away from the media or start pointing the finger at anyone else ( like his team ) but just came out and said that he had a bad ride. Even if he did nothing else in the Tour, I would have applauded him for the classy way he stood up and took any perceived blame.

But then to turn around and win the next day's stage in the Alps and follow it up with the time trial where he took the yellow jersey back, that was just freaking great. I always enjoyed the wins of Lance Armstrong but I rank this year's performance of Floyd Landis almost as highly.

---
The only thing I didn't understand was an "incident" at the finish line. Landis got off his bike and was immediately surrounded by a throng of media people and race organizers. There was a brief moment shown of him throwing an empty water bottle at someone. It looked like it was done with malice but there was no mention of it on the telecast or the couple of websites I've seen since. I'm sure it was no big deal but he looked like he was seriously shitty with someone at the time.

[thealmighty]

Originally Posted by 21C

The only thing I didn't understand was an "incident" at the finish line. Landis got off his bike and was immediately surrounded by a throng of media people and race organizers. There was a brief moment shown of him throwing an empty water bottle at someone. It looked like it was done with malice but there was no mention of it on the telecast or the couple of websites I've seen since. I'm sure it was no big deal but he looked like he was seriously shitty with someone at the time.

I saw that as well, but have heard nothing about it.

[thealmighty]

Obviously not the favorite event of this site, with nothing several hours after his victory.

Congrats to Floyd. Well, earned.

Eight straight.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Originally Posted by thealmighty

Obviously not the favorite event of this site, with nothing several hours after his victory.

Congrats to Floyd. Well, earned.

Eight straight.

Indeed. A great winner for a great race this year.

Why 8 straight though?

[caspanky]

I think he's referring to the 8 straight wins for the USA.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by caspanky

I think he's referring to the 8 straight wins for the USA.

One could argue this win is Swiss, for Landis was riding for a Swiss company. Or one could argue that since it's a team sport, it was also a win for Belgium, Colombia, France, Germany, Netherlands, South Africa, Spain and Switzerland.

[JeffNights]

Landis victory is a great one for sure...but damned if I dont think he has one ugly mug on him.

[thealmighty]

Originally Posted by caspanky

I think he's referring to the 8 straight wins for the USA.

That I was.

[thealmighty]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

One could argue this win is Swiss, for Landis was riding for a Swiss company. Or one could argue that since it's a team sport, it was also a win for Belgium, Colombia, France, Germany, Netherlands, South Africa, Spain and Switzerland.

One could argue that every Tour de France as teams are almost never comprised of one nationality. You could cut up the World Cup into parts sometimes, for that matter, as players come from all over to play for a country, like Camoranesi, who is from Argentina I believe (or Adu maybe, eventually, etc...). One could argue all sorts of things, but an American won for the 8th time straight, that's all I meant.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by thealmighty

One could argue that every Tour de France as teams are almost never comprised of one nationality. You could cut up the World Cup into parts sometimes, for that matter, as players come from all over to play for a country, like Camoranesi, who is from Argentina I believe (or Adu maybe, eventually, etc...). One could argue all sorts of things, but an American won for the 8th time straight, that's all I meant.

Cycling is a team sport, in which nationality amongst the riders just isn't an important thing. It's nine riders versus about 20 other teams of nine riders. In the end, a Swiss company took the victory home.

Still, it's okay to be proud about a fellow countryman achieving something. I'd probably be proud too had a Dutchman won, but you got to seperate for whom he won, he won for the team and for himself. If you want to win for your country, go ahead, there's the world championships later on in the season.

[Solecismic]

And here we go again.

[amdaily]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...l06/jul27news3

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/othe...ng/5221122.stm

[Draft Dodger]

damn, they are totally going to take his home run record away now

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

damn, they are totally going to take his home run record away now

If only they'd go after Amelie Mauresmo with the same fervor. She's starting to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger's younger brother.

I don't understand all the doping lingo. I assume having too much testosterone is pretty damning. Stage 17 was, after all, the one where he essentially won the race.

[CraigSca]

Nice sport.

[Maple Leafs]

Now hold on folks, let's not rush to judgement. Let's hear what Landis has to say first.

After all, what if he explains that this is simply all a mistake, that he's never taken drugs, and that somebody must be out to get him? Won't we all feel foolish then?

[ISiddiqui]

LOL... well played.

Though I guess it wasn't too much of a surprise... they are all doped up.

[MIJB#19]

Let's wait until after the second analysis, people.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

If only they'd go after Amelie Mauresmo with the same fervor. She's starting to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger's younger brother.

The first time I saw a picture of here in the paper a few years ago, I had to do a double take because I was certain she was a man.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Let's wait until after the second analysis, people.

In theory, I agree. But the blame should fall entirely on the people doing the testing.

What is the point of having this system in place if they can't keep their mouths shut after the A sample tests positive? The damage is already done. Landis will forever be known as a cheat, regardless of guilt.

[amdaily]

[Greyroofoo]

Lance didn't seem to be hurt too much by his "positive" test.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Let's wait until after the second analysis, people.

What fun is that?

How could you not wonder about this guy? He has an arthritic hip that will require hip replacement surgery later this year. Winning the Tour would have been comparable to Bo Jackson coming back from his hip surgery and winning the stolen base title. My first thought after hearing about his "comeback" in stage 17 was that somebody must have gotten shot up with something, legal or otherwise.

[JPhillips]

Give it a rest guys. It was just some Flaxseed oil.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

In theory, I agree. But the blame should fall entirely on the people doing the testing.

What is the point of having this system in place if they can't keep their mouths shut after the A sample tests positive? The damage is already done. Landis will forever be known as a cheat, regardless of guilt.

Everything I've seen so far indicates that Tour officials had simply said an unidentified rider had a positive test. The story breaks out today because his team issued a statement saying Landis tested positive, and if the B sample is positive too he will be fired.

The fact that his team has come out clean with this suggests something very fishy to me. So far, there appears to be none of the Lance Defense being played ... I get the impression that his team seems to think he got caught.