FBCB Question: Have I missed something very important?

[Ben E Lou]

I was re-reading the manual last night, and noticed something.

Originally Posted by FBCB Manual

INS: Inside play has the player work on his scoring moves and his rebounding positioning. Players with higher inside scoring ability are better at creating shots.

Up to now, I've basically ignored the INS rating for guys that will be playing 1 or 2, thinking that I can focus on letting them fill it up from outside. However, the way that sentence reads could lead one to believe that the INS rating also has an impact on creating perimeter shots. Thinking back, I've had several guards who haven't scored the 15-20ppg that I thought they should have been, based on their JPS and 3PS ratings. Is it that low-inside-rated guys also have trouble getting open for the outside J as well?

[Calis]

Yep, I always took a high INS rating for guards to correlating to a slasher type. I definitely think it makes a difference.

I learned this the same way. I had some players with great jump shot ability but they just couldn't get good looks apparently and never quite made it to the big time.

[corbes]

That actually makes real-life sense to me. Outside shooters DO depend on someone else to create their shot. And "slashing" skills often correlate to one's ability to score inside, regardless of height.

I guess I'm thinking of "slashing" as having two components. One is the ability to handle the ball -- to get inside the perimeter. The second is the ability to finish the shot -- or score inside.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by corbes

That actually makes real-life sense to me. Outside shooters DO depend on someone else to create their shot.

Not necessarily. The quick guys who are excellent ball-handlers can freeze a defender with the dribble, then shoot the J. Kenny Anderson used to do it all the time when he was at Tech.

[kcchief19]

I see this more like Calis does. I thought a high INS rating for a 1 or 2 meant that player was better at scoring inside shots -- somebody who is capable of taking it to the rim.

I don't think the rating is intended to help players create perimeter shots. If you have a player with a low INS rating who doesn't score despite high JPS and 3PS, I think it's more a matter of that player not getting inside backs or driving to the basket to get draw more fouls. I don't know that a player's INS rating correlates to their frequency for driving to the basket, but I do believe it correlates to their propensity to do so.

I, too, find that guards with a strong outside game don't score as much as you might think, and I'm pretty sure the low INS rating is the reason.

[corbes]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Not necessarily. The quick guys who are excellent ball-handlers can freeze a defender with the dribble, then shoot the J. Kenny Anderson used to do it all the time when he was at Tech.

Yeah, good point. But wouldn't the ballhandling rating address that?

I was thinking of players like J.J. Redick at Duke, and Melvin Scott, Shammond Williams, Dante Calabria, et al from North Carolina. They can nail the outside shot, but rely on the point guard to set up their shot.

Edit--I'm veering off-topic here about the inside rating, I guess.

[Ben E Lou]

I left off the other piece of this that leans me to think this way:

Originally Posted by FBCB Manual, in another place

Motion: A higher motion setting will make the team play a more structured game. It would take away some from the individual freedom to score but it will create more opportunities for less talented scorers. A team with many players who lack the ability to create shots would benefit from using more motion.

[Groundhog]

I always thought of INS as the ability to get off a good shot inside, so it would help big guys post moves and guards penetration moves.

However, I've seen PGs and SGs with lowish SHT ratings and high INS ratings who put up a good amount of points, so perhaps I am wrong.

[druez]

I'm currently doing a review of this title. I'm simply amazed at the engine. Its top notch and I don't think there is a better basketball engine out there period. Building your team and playing your games is a blast. I love the strat part of the game and the changes you make to your style of play really seem to effect your team.

Question for you guys, what rating style do you guys use? I'm using the A - F deal. I am also using the low conferencement movement option. Which do you think is more like the real NCAA, conference gets more prestige or low conference movement.

I only wish the PBP had some sound .

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by druez

I only wish the PBP had some sound .

{Throws trout across the room at Jason.}

[HeavyReign]

INS is factored into the ability for guards to create shots on their own. Quickness is a factor as well. Someone who is low in both would need another player to create the scoring opportunity for them. The best way to get a feel for what different types of players can do is to take a look at the league leaders at the end of the year. I think you'll see both guys with high quickness and lower INS as well as the opposite. For creating drives, the jumping rating also comes into play.

The system as a whole makes it possible to represent many different types of players. You can have the slasher who may score using his creativity and athleticism or the pure shooter. This was something that I struggled to get to work in the past with FBB. Using NBA examples, an Allen Iverson would have a high INS to go with his quickness due to his ability to create. More of a shooter like an Allan Houston would have lower INS but higher shooting abilities. Someone like a Steve Kerr would be lower in quickness and in INS.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by HeavyReign

INS is factored into the ability for guards to create shots on their own. Quickness is a factor as well. Someone who is low in both would need another player to create the scoring opportunity for them. The best way to get a feel for what different types of players can do is to take a look at the league leaders at the end of the year. I think you'll see both guys with high quickness and lower INS as well as the opposite. For creating drives, the jumping rating also comes into play.

The system as a whole makes it possible to represent many different types of players. You can have the slasher who may score using his creativity and athleticism or the pure shooter. This was something that I struggled to get to work in the past with FBB. Using NBA examples, an Allen Iverson would have a high INS to go with his quickness due to his ability to create. More of a shooter like an Allan Houston would have lower INS but higher shooting abilities. Someone like a Steve Kerr would be lower in quickness and in INS.

Brian:

This is absolutely beautiful. Thanks for the info!

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by HeavyReign

INS is factored into the ability for guards to create shots on their own. Quickness is a factor as well. Someone who is low in both would need another player to create the scoring opportunity for them. The best way to get a feel for what different types of players can do is to take a look at the league leaders at the end of the year. I think you'll see both guys with high quickness and lower INS as well as the opposite. For creating drives, the jumping rating also comes into play.

The system as a whole makes it possible to represent many different types of players. You can have the slasher who may score using his creativity and athleticism or the pure shooter. This was something that I struggled to get to work in the past with FBB. Using NBA examples, an Allen Iverson would have a high INS to go with his quickness due to his ability to create. More of a shooter like an Allan Houston would have lower INS but higher shooting abilities. Someone like a Steve Kerr would be lower in quickness and in INS.

Just what I wanted to hear, fantastic stuff! Makes a lot of sense to me now actually that I look back. I had a SG on my team with a rating of 5 for SHT and INS (I use 1-10 ratings), but he had 10 for both quickness and jumping. When I watched the PBP I noticed that he attacked the hoop an awful lot, and got to the charity stripe as a result. Because of this, he averaged more points than I expected him to.

It is really great to know that all this kind of stuff is going on in the sim.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by druez

I'm currently doing a review of this title. I'm simply amazed at the engine. Its top notch and I don't think there is a better basketball engine out there period. Building your team and playing your games is a blast. I love the strat part of the game and the changes you make to your style of play really seem to effect your team.

Question for you guys, what rating style do you guys use? I'm using the A - F deal. I am also using the low conferencement movement option. Which do you think is more like the real NCAA, conference gets more prestige or low conference movement.

I only wish the PBP had some sound .

I use 1-10, as I said above, because I like the fact that it's not too indepth. I coach every game, and have to watch my players performances a little closer than I usually would to see who the better player is on my depth chart. A-F would work like this as well I guess, but I just don't like that rating style, I find it hard to quickly glance at for comparisons.

As for conference movement, 'realistic' would probably be limited conference movement, in the short term anyhow. If you compare the current setup of Div.1 to it's setup 20 years ago, both in terms of dominant conferences and conference memberships, it's a very different place obviously, much more so than if you sim 20 years in FBCB with limited conference movement.

[The_herd]

Originally Posted by druez

Question for you guys, what rating style do you guys use? I'm using the A - F deal. I am also using the low conferencement movement option. Which do you think is more like the real NCAA, conference gets more prestige or low conference movement.

I use the 1-20 rating system. A-F ratings annoy me to the point that I can't enjoy a game.

To most resemble the NCAA you really need to turn off all movement and prestige updates. However, I usually go with low movement, I really haven't tried the prestige option yet though.

What the hell took you so long to review the game?

[MizzouRah]

I use the 1-20 system as well. I also have the prestige updates on instead of conference movement.

Anyone know a good book that really explains college bball? I'm a novice when it comes to games like FBCB. I would like to find out in depth about zones, the different positions, etc..


Thanks,

Todd

[Neuqua]

Originally Posted by druez

I'm currently doing a review of this title. I'm simply amazed at the engine. Its top notch and I don't think there is a better basketball engine out there period.

Hey hey, looks like we may finally agree on something. Have you reviewed TDCB yet?

I personally use 1-20 as well because it gives me a good idea of a players abilities but is also vague enough to the point where I can base some decisions on a players production on the court. And it's a lot easier to read when you are just basically skimming through a list of players to find what you need.

[RPI-Fan]

HeavyReign:

Rather than start a new thread, I'll just pose this question here...

Does Fatigue play a role from game-to-game, particularly late in the season, and with lower stamina players? Is this is a possible explanation for people who run into seemingly inexplicable losing slumps late in the year, season after season. If not, any other ideas what might be causing this?

Thanks!
~rpi-fan

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Just what I wanted to hear, fantastic stuff! Makes a lot of sense to me now actually that I look back. I had a SG on my team with a rating of 5 for SHT and INS (I use 1-10 ratings), but he had 10 for both quickness and jumping. When I watched the PBP I noticed that he attacked the hoop an awful lot, and got to the charity stripe as a result. Because of this, he averaged more points than I expected him to.

It is really great to know that all this kind of stuff is going on in the sim.

This adds a level of depth to recruiting and coaching that I had never even thought about... wow.

[HeavyReign]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

HeavyReign:

Rather than start a new thread, I'll just pose this question here...

Does Fatigue play a role from game-to-game, particularly late in the season, and with lower stamina players? Is this is a possible explanation for people who run into seemingly inexplicable losing slumps late in the year, season after season. If not, any other ideas what might be causing this?

Thanks!
~rpi-fan

Right now there isn't a game to game carryover on fatigue. The main areas where it would come into play would be in the conference tourneys and preaseason tourneys when teams usually play on consecutive days. It is something I had planned at looking at eventually but I would need to decide just how large the effect should be if I was going to add it.

[The_herd]

Originally Posted by HeavyReign

Right now there isn't a game to game carryover on fatigue. The main areas where it would come into play would be in the conference tourneys and preaseason tourneys when teams usually play on consecutive days. It is something I had planned at looking at eventually but I would need to decide just how large the effect should be if I was going to add it.

While we're discussing the engine, is there a hidden team confidence rating? I've had a couple of really talented teams completely tank a season after losing some games I should have won early in the season. I'm probably looking to much into it, but I thought that could explain it.

[larrymcg421]

Is anything being done to make this more compatible with Windows ME? That's the only thing stopping me from buying it.

[Peregrine]

Druez, I've been using the 1-20 system lately, and loving it. It gives me enough depth in the stats but not too much, the 1-100 kind of overwhelms me with stats, with 1-20 I can look at it and immediately the player's double-digit (upper half) ratings stand out.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Is anything being done to make this more compatible with Windows ME? That's the only thing stopping me from buying it.

I believe HR has stated that there isn't too much he can do. Some people have said that they can run it ok, but the end of season stuff just takes a heck of a long time, like an hour or so. I run a fairly modest system (1.3ghz AMD) with WinXP, and the end of season takes 30-40 seconds tops, so you can see just how poorly Win ME handles memory...

[Peregrine]

Great thread. For a long time I didn't pay much attention to the physical ratings, now they are seeming to be more and more important. One thing I've noticed in recruiting is that there are often quality players that the AI teams don't recruit. This can be either because of bad academics, but often it's because of bad physicals. I started noticing this after I picked up some of these "bargains" only to find that they just didn't do much out there on the court.

The more I look into the way the stats and skills affect the players, the deeper the engine gets.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by HeavyReign

Someone who is low in both would need another player to create the scoring opportunity for them.

With regards to players improving the scoring opportunity of team mates, I assume that a pass made by a guy with a high passing rating would in some way increase the chance of the guy receiving the pass taking a good shot? In the play by play you often see "J.Bloggs finds M.Smith for the easy basket" (usually when a guy with high passing ability has the ball), is this the sole example of the above occuring, or can it also happen when a guy recieves a pass and just takes a regular jump shot in the PbP?

[larrymcg421]

I can't even get to the end of season stuff. It takes forever just to sim the games. I understand I have a crappy operating system, though. It's a shame because I really dig the game.

[HeavyReign]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

With regards to players improving the scoring opportunity of team mates, I assume that a pass made by a guy with a high passing rating would in some way increase the chance of the guy receiving the pass taking a good shot? In the play by play you often see "J.Bloggs finds M.Smith for the easy basket" (usually when a guy with high passing ability has the ball), is this the sole example of the above occuring, or can it also happen when a guy recieves a pass and just takes a regular jump shot in the PbP?

It can also happen when a guy receives a pass and takes a shot.

Is anything being done to make this more compatible with Windows ME?

Right now I've exhausted all the ideas I had for making it work on ME. If I do come up with something later I'll definately let everyone know.

[The_herd]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

The more I look into the way the stats and skills affect the players, the deeper the engine gets.

I'm noticing the same thing. The hours I've logged playing this is starting to rival TCY, but what seems like a very simple engine at a glance, I'm finding is actually an incredibly deep and realistic engine, especially when it comes to player ratings, which I thought was very shallow when I first started playing.

[Ben E Lou]

bump for discussion right now....

[sjshaw]

I would really like to see some carryover fatigue, especially for low stamina players. Maybe also for big guys who are carrying a lot of weight.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by sjshaw

I would really like to see some carryover fatigue, especially for low stamina players. Maybe also for big guys who are carrying a lot of weight.

Only if the AI can manage the gameplay/substitutions/etc correctly with such fatigue factors.

[Marmel]

Originally Posted by sjshaw

I would really like to see some carryover fatigue, especially for low stamina players. Maybe also for big guys who are carrying a lot of weight.

Do you mean from game to game? Thats a sticky area for a game to get into. There is no way to really know if this exists and what effects it has. I think if you are going to move in this direction of realism, travel would be a bigger 'stamina' factor, but even that is questionable.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Marmel

Do you mean from game to game? Thats a sticky area for a game to get into. There is no way to really know if this exists and what effects it has. I think if you are going to move in this direction of realism, travel would be a bigger 'stamina' factor, but even that is questionable.

That's why I pretend that such a things exist even though I don't want to see it explicitly stated. In other words, I produce a ooc schedule that makes sense, given rest days and travel days, and try to keep games regional and chained when on the road. It's just me adding a little geographical flavor to the game.

[Noop]

Alright... Is there anyway I can get a Duke like offense? I want high three's and well some inside presence but I am having a hard time finding the right settings. I have a PG and a SG that are like Duhon and Reddick but they arent putting up the numbers for me. Maybe their should be another thread where we can trade ideas for offense's?

[Desnudo]

I have a few questions:

1. Coaching Staff

What's the interaction here? For example, what impact does the asst. coach's off. and def. ratings have versus my own; assuming I'm simming the games. What does the recruiting coordinator's rating do verse my own? Do secondaries matter for the RC and LS? Does the asst. coach's recruiting rating matter in his visits?

2. Player Progression

Is there some place to see how your players have progressed from season to season and post-training session? Also, do players progress during the season. Or is the training session the only time they gain skill?


I'm enjoying this game a lot, but there's still a lot I can't get my arms around and I don't think I'd be ever able to without some help. Thanks for any and all replies.