I like boys and don't know why.

[The Afoci]

Sexual Identity Hard-Wired by Genetics - Study
Mon October 20, 2003 12:11 AM ET

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Sexual identity is wired into the genes, which discounts the concept that homosexuality and transgender sexuality are a choice, California researchers reported on Monday.
"Our findings may help answer an important question -- why do we feel male or female?" Dr. Eric Vilain, a genetics professor at the University of California, Los Angeles School of Medicine, said in a statement. "Sexual identity is rooted in every person's biology before birth and springs from a variation in our individual genome."

His team has identified 54 genes in mice that may explain why male and female brains look and function differently.

Since the 1970s, scientists have believed that estrogen and testosterone were wholly responsible for sexually organizing the brain. Recent evidence, however, indicates that hormones cannot explain everything about the sexual differences between male and female brains.

Published in the latest edition of the journal Molecular Brain Research, the UCLA discovery may also offer physicians an improved tool for gender assignment of babies born with ambiguous genitalia.

Mild cases of malformed genitalia occur in 1 percent of all births -- about 3 million cases. More severe cases -- where doctors can't inform parents whether they had a boy or girl -- occur in one in 3,000 births.

"If physicians could predict the gender of newborns with ambiguous genitalia at birth, we would make less mistakes in gender assignment," Vilain said.

Using two genetic testing methods, the researchers compared the production of genes in male and female brains in embryonic mice -- long before the animals developed sex organs.

They found 54 genes produced in different amounts in male and female mouse brains, prior to hormonal influence. Eighteen of the genes were produced at higher levels in the male brains; 36 were produced at higher levels in the female brains.

"We discovered that the male and female brains differed in many measurable ways, including anatomy and function." Vilain said.

For example, the two hemispheres of the brain appeared more symmetrical in females than in males. According to Vilain, the symmetry may improve communication between both sides of the brain, leading to enhanced verbal expressiveness in females.

"This anatomical difference may explain why women can sometimes articulate their feelings more easily than men," he said.

The scientists plan to conduct further studies to determine the specific role for each of the 54 genes they identified.

"Our findings may explain why we feel male or female, regardless of our actual anatomy," said Vilain. "These discoveries lend credence to the idea that being transgender --- feeling that one has been born into the body of the wrong sex -- is a state of mind.

Now, this has been my belief on the subject since I have 2 homosexuals in my family that both tell me that it isn't a publicity stunt. I don't know how credible it is, but I hope we can have a decent discussion that doesn't end in us all calling each other dumbheads.

Does anyone still believe (in a non-baiting voice) that homosexuality is a choice like a choice to purchase a vehicle? If so why? It would intrigue me to hear the arguments.

[Glengoyne]

This has got to be very concerning to my straight friend with a gay identical twin!!

[Fritz]

I do think it is a choice, like most of what you do and who you are.

and you are a dumbhead (just to get it out of theway)

[Draft Dodger]

disclaimer - I'm not an expert on genetics, and I'm not gay...meaning I have nothing but intuition to go on.

I certainly don't think homosexuality is a publicity stunt, or a concious decision. I also don't think it's 100% genetic - I'm willing to believe that you may be genetically predisposed to someday become gay, but I don't think your preference is decided in advance. I think that's shaped, largely subconciously, by events that happen in your early life - events that you have no control over.

[John Galt]

You won't convince this audience. One time we went through this I cited double blind separated twin studies (ie twins who were separated at birth by adoption) that showed separated twins were more likely to have the same sexual orientation, but no one cared.

If being gay was a choice, go hump a man tonight (Marmels don't count).

[panerd]

Not to equate gays with Child Molesters, but here goes anyways...

Why does society seem to think that pedophiles and donkey-bangers are making choices in their attractions and not gays?

I think something happens to most pedophiles and animal lovers. (Sort of like what Draft Dodger said about gays) Why couldn't something cause people to be gay?

[TroyF]

I don't think we can rule out all sociological factors.

There are a few societies in Africa that are predominantly homosexual and have partners of the opposite sex for creation only. Other societies have had predominantly bi-sexual people. (Sparta is a good example, most all Spartan soldiers took part in homo-sexual behavior)

I don't really consider it a consious choice that people make. I don't think you wake up one morning and say "geez, I really like guys now, I think I'm going to become gay" I do think that there are other factors other than hard wiring that can cause someone to be gay.

Not sure if anyone could understand that, but I gave it my best shot.

TroyF

[John Galt]

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
disclaimer - I'm not an expert on genetics, and I'm not gay...meaning I have nothing but intuition to go on.

I certainly don't think homosexuality is a publicity stunt, or a concious decision. I also don't think it's 100% genetic - I'm willing to believe that you may be genetically predisposed to someday become gay, but I don't think your preference is decided in advance. I think that's shaped, largely subconciously, by events that happen in your early life - events that you have no control over.

I think this is plausible view, but how would you separate repression from "events that happen in early life." In other words, how do you ever know if you have found your "true" sexual orientation or whether you are just living according to cultural dictates that you inherited while young? For example, Freud agreed with your idea because he thought everyone was born bisexual and we "learned" early on to be one way or the other (or stayed both - or changed back and forth).

[Draft Dodger]

Originally posted by Glengoyne
This has got to be very concerning to my straight friend with a gay identical twin!!

I have a co-worker in the same boat. She's straight, her sister is gay. To compound matters, my co-worker's husband may possibly be the gayest straight man I've ever met.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by panerd
Not to equate gays with Child Molesters, but here goes anyways...

Why does society seem to think that pedophiles and donkey-bangers are making choices in their attractions and not gays?

Like Draft Dodger said something happens to most pedophiles and animal lovers. (Don't know the technical name) Why couldn't something cause people to be gay?

Maybe because no scientific evidence supports the idea that child molestation or donkey-banging is genetic.

[The Afoci]

JG, I love your sig. Perhaps Walter screaming this isn't 'Nam, this is sexuality, we got rules! would...well I don't know where I was going with this.

[panerd]

Re-reading my post I think I quoted draft dodger for something he didn't say, I will edit. Please don't jump all over me.

[Easy Mac]

Ancient Greeks had a fondness for little boys. Symposium is the sickest shit I have ever read.

That being said, you're more or less born with certain sexual inclinations. Some people realize it, some don't, and some deny it. Just the way it is IMHO. Doesn't make me hate them, but being gay isn't something I can see myself doing. But if it makes you happy.

[Ksyrup]

I saw this article but decided against posting it for the reasons you mention. However, since you posted it...

My feelings on the subject are this: I believe that 99.9% of us are born pre-disposed to either heterosexuality or homosexuality. I believe that a percentage of us - not sure what percentage - on both sides of the fence encounter an environment which is conducive to altering that pre-disposition. I believe that environmental factors can serve to affect a person, but in a (mostly) subconscious manner. Whether environmental factors ultimately affect a change against the pre-disposition is entiely random, but I don't think it is a choice for most people. I say most, because I believe that there is a small segment of the homosexual population who consciously choose to pursue the lifestyle, for whatever reason, be it an abusive ex-husband/boyfriend, being more comfortable and finding companionship with members of the same sex, etc.

That's my take on the whole subject. I've known too many people who ended up coming out, who you just knew were gay before they were ever a sexual being, for me not to believe it is, in large part, genetics. On the other hand, I've also seen people choose to forego a homosexual life because they were doctors and wanted a family, and didn't want that issue to be an obstacle. I've seen women switch sides after being abused. So I know that it can be a choice, but I don't believe that to be the case for vast majority of the homosexual population.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally posted by John Galt
In other words, how do you ever know if you have found your "true" sexual orientation or whether you are just living according to cultural dictates that you inherited while young?

isn't this the whole crux of why it's so hard to be a gay youth? not only do you have the social pressure to be of a specific orientation, but you have the added bonus of trying to sort through all the fucked up feelings you've got going on at that age and deciding if you really were gay, or just confused.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally posted by panerd
Re-reading my post I think I quoted draft dodger for something he didn't say, I will edit. Please don't jump all over me.

in other words, don't ganbang you?

[Easy Mac]

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
in other words, don't ganbang you?

only saturdays and the occassional third Tuesday of the waning moon.

[Fritz]

well, if I am wrong there is some good news. One day there will be a chemical treatment for the people aflicted with the defect.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Fritz
well, if I am wrong there is some good news. One day there will be a chemical treatment for the people aflicted with the defect.

Even if that day comes, for some reason I don't think it's going to be quite that easy.

[The Afoci]

Originally posted by Fritz
well, if I am wrong there is some good news. One day there will be a chemical treatment for the people aflicted with the defect.

That of course would come the same time as the cure for ugliness and stupidity.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by The Afoci
That of course would come the same time as the cure for ugliness and stupidity.

Where can I get in line?

[sabotai]

I'm Bill McNeil on crack I like boys.

[Franklinnoble]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

We're all born sinners. Period.

Whether or not we choose to embrace a sinful lifestyle is the whole point.

[CamEdwards]

here's another recent study

New research published last week claims that homosexuals and lesbians who undergo psychiatric therapy can change their sexuality. Charles Laurence in New York meets three of the study's 'converts'


From his earliest memories, Jeff Johnston was one of the girls. Before he was five, he would shun the rough and tumble of boys' play, and stay in the house with his mother and sisters. He looked liked his mum and, relatives would say, acted just like her, too.

At seven, he ran away, terrified, from several encounters" with older boys. At high school, he joined the girl gang as a "peer" rather than a suitor, and realised that he was homosexual while reading pornographic magazines, and finding the men in the pictures far more attractive than the women.

But these days Johnston, 40, is married with three sons: Nathaniel, six, and Aden and Brendon, twins of three. "Gay, I was ashamed and afraid," he says.

"There was a constant conflict between my Christian faith and my feelings, I always wanted a family and children in the normal way, and I was terrified of Aids. Now, I have a wonderful marriage and my children, like those of every dad, are brilliant and beautiful."

Johnston is one of the 200 former homosexuals and lesbians who took part in a study by Dr Robert Spitzer, professor of psychiatry at Columbia University, New York. The publication of his findings, in the US journal Archives of Sexual Behaviour, has created an uproar.

Dr Spitzer concluded that homosexuals can change their sexuality. His study, first revealed at a conference in 2001 but published only last week, created even more of an impact among psychiatrists and homosexual organisations because, in 1973, he had been instrumental in deleting homosexuality from the American Psychiatric Association's list of official mental disorders.

That decision - the foundation of the belief that homosexuality is nature, not nurture, and therefore beyond free will and moral choice - is at the heart of the "gay liberation" movement.

But his new study found that 78 per cent of males and 95 per cent of females who voluntarily underwent the "reparative" or psychiatric therapy reported a change in their sexuality.

And of the 143 men and 57 women who participated, 66 per cent of males and 44 per cent of females had achieved what he called "good heterosexual functioning".

This he defined as being in a sustained, loving heterosexual relationship, getting "emotional satisfaction" to a point of seven on a 10-point scale, having heterosexual sex at least once a month, and never, or rarely, fantasising about someone of the same gender during heterosexual sex.

"My conclusion is that the door is open," Dr Spitzer said. "I came to this study as a sceptic - I believed that a homosexual, whether born or made, was a homosexual and that to consider their orientation a matter of choice was wrong. But the fact is that if I found even one person who could change, the door is open, and a change in sexual orientation is possible."

Dr Spitzer has said repeatedly that as an "atheist Jew" his only interest in the issue is scientific truth, adding that an orthodoxy which forbids acknowledgement of the possibility of change is as flawed as that which labels homosexuality an act of will and morally wrong.

But gay rights groups insist that Spitzer is a "cultural conservative" who is supporting "therapies" for changing behaviour which are doing psychological damage to troubled homosexuals.

According to Joan Garry, the executive director of Glaad, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation: "No research nor findings should have any bearing on whether people - gay, lesbian, bisexual or straight - are treated fairly.

Spitzer's conclusions are based on a self-selected sample of people who are so troubled by their sexual orientation that they will go to any lengths to try to 'change' it."

In London, Peter Tatchell, a gay rights campaigner, said: "Everyone I have spoken to who has been through this so-called treatment says it has not only failed to convert them to heterosexuality, but it has caused them immense psychological and emotional harm."

Both the scientists and the campaigners complain that Dr Spitzer's sample of 200 people is bogus because most came from Christian fundamentalist communities and were simply tormented by the social pressure brought to bear against their natural sexual orientation.

Dr Spitzer agrees that the participants were "highly motivated" but that none the less they managed to change to his definition of "good heterosexual functioning". And in their own words, homosexual "converts" describe social pressure as only part of the cause of their misery and faith as only part of the cure.

"Changing was a long process that took many years, and at the heart of it was relationship issues," said Richard Cohen, 50, who became a psychotherapist and now works with troubled homosexuals. "To make behavioural change, you have to go into the past and discover the wounds that created the problem.

"This is what I found for myself: I had a fear of my father, an angry man who frightened me; my mother was overbearing and I was too close to her; I had an older brother who was physically abused - beaten - by my father and who in turn abused me; my uncle saw my needs, and then polluted our relationship with sexual abuse; and I was a sensitive kid who was bullied at school."

Mr Cohen, a married father of three children aged 20, 18 and eight, says the key to change is to fit into gender roles that have nothing to do with sex: "A man must first be able to be a man with men, to find his gender identity. When he does, opposites attract and he will want a woman."

Ashley, 47, was a lesbian committed not only to sex with women but to the "activist" lifestyle in Los Angeles, until she started therapy in her late 20s. Now she is married, with a son of 10, and was among the women studied by Dr Spitzer.

But although she started going to church during her therapy and says that her faith and the church community helped her change her orientation, it was a search for emotional stability that turned her from her lesbian lovers.

"I knew as a teenager that I was a lesbian, and at 18 the magic moment came and I acted on my feelings with a woman 13 years older," she said. "For years I was totally committed to the lifestyle. But I was not happy. Some of my relationships lasted three or four years, and my family was tolerant and I would go home with my lovers. But something was wrong."

Ashley realised in her 20s that her lesbian community seemed unable to offer calm, stability and a sense of security. "Every relationship was so intense," she said. "There was anger and jealousy and I could not bear to be away from my lover for even a few minutes.

There was also violence and a great deal of alcohol abuse. These things - unhappiness, alcoholism - are symptoms of people functioning in a way they are not designed to, and, yes, I think that is morally wrong."

Ashley found herself turning away from women for sex after realising in psychotherapy that, all along, she had been looking for a mother figure.

Her mother had been an emotionally unstable woman who would one minute be an attentive, safeguarding parent, and the next "absent". Her father, meanwhile, was a hard-working provider whom she hardly knew.

"I was looking for my mother in all the wrong women. When I realised that, I slowly started to find men more attractive, or at least I found the guy who is now my husband attractive," she said. "And I simply no longer want to have sex with women."

For Jeff Johnston, the transition to physical attraction to the opposite sex was not as immediate. Even with the woman he fell in love with, Judy, with whom he recently celebrated his 10th wedding anniversary, the chemistry was elusive in the beginning.

"It was terrifying, horrible," he said. "Our dating relationship was really rough. I was in my early 30s, and I was trying to do stuff that guys do when they are 16 or 18.

"But now it's wonderful," he says, describing how the couple found true happiness after their wedding. "We had a two-year honeymoon."


FWIW, I think we're all somewhat hardwired to be as sexual as possible, and societal influences can make us more apt to act on our sexual impulses. I don't want to get into a religious debate, so I'll leave out the part about struggling not to sin.

[Easy Mac]

I read the article as though it says that the doctor took 200 people who didn't want to be gay and convinced them they weren't. Doesn't actually prove one way or another if it is biological. It just proves that people who are disturbed (see the people described in the article) can have their behavior manipulated.

If I had an inclination towards obesity, I could theoretically control it by enough conditioning and not eating the kinds of food that promote it, but that doesn't mean the inclination is gone. Instead it is supressed.

[korme]

longlonglong article

[CamEdwards]

But they're still making a choice.

[Easy Mac]

Their making a choice to ignore what to them is a disturbing biological situation.

[The Afoci]

Like I said Cam, or maybe I didn't, I am not attempting to use this article to prove a point, because I don't know the rep of the people who did it. All I am attempting to do is to see the side of an issue I don't see another side too.

[Easy Mac]

oh, and not trying to get feisty Cam, just trying to kill time so I don't have to write a response paper.

Know anything about the US v. Morrison court decision in 2000? I swear, Congress and their reasons for supporting lawmaking decisions really doesn't make sense most of the time. A cleared rapist affects interstate commerce? Argghhhhhh.

[CamEdwards]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
Their making a choice to ignore what to them is a disturbing biological situation.

But I believe that we're all hardwired to be as sexual as possible. It's up to us to ultimately determine what is right and wrong.

Free will, it's an amazing thing. The point is, for these people who are gay and believe that their homosexual activity is a moral dilemna, there seems to be strong evidence suggesting they don't have to stay that way. The corrollary to that would be the situations Ksyrup pointed out (straight folks deciding to be gay).

I'm not really interested in getting into a big debate about this either... I'm just suggesting that maybe the issue isn't black and white.

[korme]

I for one do not think sexuality is 100% genetic, the decisions you make in life can alter any way of life, I believe. Not just sexuality.

[Glengoyne]

Originally posted by Franklinnoble

...We're all born sinners. Period. ...

I would contend we all stay that way.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally posted by Glengoyne
I would contend we all stay that way.

and thank God for that!

[Easy Mac]

Originally posted by CamEdwards
But I believe that we're all hardwired to be as sexual as possible. It's up to us to ultimately determine what is right and wrong.

Free will, it's an amazing thing. The point is, for these people who are gay and believe that their homosexual activity is a moral dilemna, there seems to be strong evidence suggesting they don't have to stay that way. The corrollary to that would be the situations Ksyrup pointed out (straight folks deciding to be gay).

I'm not really interested in getting into a big debate about this either... I'm just suggesting that maybe the issue isn't black and white.

ah cool, I get ya.

I think deteriming right and wrong is really left up to the individual involved in said acts (i.e. those that do not intentionally harm either party such as homosexual acts) and not the masses. But its all good, we pretty much agree. If someones gay but they feel opposed, then if they can deal with "turning" straight, so be it.

And don't even get me started on free will. I need sleep tonight.

[JPhillips]

Cam: A couple of points. One, the study is obviously skewed because it relies on volunteers. This is hardly a scientific study. It may tell us thatsome gays who have already had a desire to change their behavior can, but so what ? Any straight person can also give up sex if they are inclined.

That leads to the larger point. Does the sex act define the identity? I don't believe it does. If I don't have sex with my wife(being married you can understand how this might happen) does that make me less straight? Giving up sex doesn't necessarily make these people less gay. Its like alcoholics who don't drink for years. Even though they don't drink, they are still alcoholics.

I agree that the argument is far from black and white. I think straights can choose to have a gay sex and I think gays can choose to have straight sex. What I don't think is a matter of choice is basic orientatoin.

[dawgfan]

Other points to consider from the study Cam cites:

- How many of these people that "converted" to heterosexuality stay that way?

- How truthful are these volunteer subjects being when quizzed about critical factors like sexual frequency, sexual fantasies, etc.

I'll echo what has been said already - there's no question that gays can act straight, have straight sex, etc. Does that mean they're straight, or that they're suppressing their true desires?

[WussGawd]

Originally posted by Franklinnoble
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

We're all born sinners. Period.

Whether or not we choose to embrace a sinful lifestyle is the whole point.

Of course, seeing as anything outside of totally sober sex, in the missionary position, within the bounds of marriage is considered sin, this doesn't leave a whole lot of room for *anyone* to cast aspersions on someone else's lifestyle.

[astralhaze]

With this audience I am sure this will be a dead end, but why is there anything wrong with or, as Fritz terms it, "defective" with homosexuality? To me, whether or not homosexuality is a choice or not is pretty much a no brainer. I mean, seriously, who in this society would choose to be homosexual? Considering the attitude of a very large section of society, probably the majority that it is evil, a sin, a defect, against nature, etc, and the persecution homosexuals put up with you would have to be insane to choose it. To me, that's an open and shut case. The larger question is what is wrong with homosexuality (without quoting The Bible please)?

[Suicane75]

What exactly is gay? And why is it?
If I ever engage in a sexual act with a man does that make me gay? Does it matter what level that act is? If I see Brad Pitt on TV and comment on how attractive he is, does that mean im gay? What if my girlfriend asks me If I would do him if she was in the bed with us and I say yes, does that mean im gay?
What im trying to get at, in my rambling manner is this, if im willing to be gay, but have never been gay, does that make me gay? Am I not gay till I do the actual act? Am I not gay till I do the "ULTIMATE" act?
Am I gay because thinking about the act brings me sexual pleasure?

[Suicane75]

Originally posted by astralhaze
With this audience I am sure this will be a dead end, but why is there anything wrong with or, as Fritz terms it, "defective" with homosexuality? To me, whether or not homosexuality is a choice or not is pretty much a no brainer. I mean, seriously, who in this society would choose to be homosexual? Considering the attitude of a very large section of society, probably the majority that it is evil, a sin, a defect, against nature, etc, and the persecution homosexuals put up with you would have to be insane to choose it. To me, that's an open and shut case. The larger question is what is wrong with homosexuality (without quoting The Bible please)?

To me, I think alot of people have alot of problems with Homosexuals more because of how they act than what they do. People think effeminite men are funny and it's been my experience that gay men get bashed first because of the way act and then because of what they do.

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by Suicane75
To me, I think alot of people have alot of problems with Homosexuals more because of how they act than what they do. People think effeminite men are funny and it's been my experience that gay men get bashed first because of the way act and then because of what they do.

Then there are those who say things like "God hates fags" or beat them to death. To me, your argument is blaming the victim and trying to hide the underlying prejudice.

[astralhaze]

dola

Somewhat off-topic but not really, this board, as a whole, is pretty anti-homosexual. However, there is far more homoerotic humor here than any message board I have ever seen. Don't know what that says exactly.

[Suicane75]

I think a majority of us, myself included, find the sterotype funny, I find all sterotypes funny, but theres some you don't touch, Homosexuality is sort of free range as long as we don't think there any gay folks around.

[Suicane75]

Originally posted by astralhaze
Then there are those who say things like "God hates fags" or beat them to death. To me, your argument is blaming the victim and trying to hide the underlying prejudice.

Whoa dude, you asked why, I gave you a reason, it isn't my reason.
People hate people for all sorts of reasons, I am certainly not blaming the victim, im giving you an example of what ive seen, I certainly don't condone it wether it's true or not.

[pjstp20]

Originally posted by astralhaze
With this audience I am sure this will be a dead end, but why is there anything wrong with or, as Fritz terms it, "defective" with homosexuality? To me, whether or not homosexuality is a choice or not is pretty much a no brainer. I mean, seriously, who in this society would choose to be homosexual? Considering the attitude of a very large section of society, probably the majority that it is evil, a sin, a defect, against nature, etc, and the persecution homosexuals put up with you would have to be insane to choose it. To me, that's an open and shut case. The larger question is what is wrong with homosexuality (without quoting The Bible please)?

Good points. Theres nothing wrong with being gay, people are just stupid and afraid of things they don't understand or things they don't consider "normal".

[VPI97]

I hate the fact that society dictates that has to be a distinction between "gay" and "straight". My sister-in-law has two children with her partner (artificial insemination) and for the last few years, I didn't feel the need to say anything about their situation to my daughter. In the last few months, however, I can tell that she's been hearing things at school (she's in second grade). So when she asks questions now, I have to explain to her that regardless of what she's heard, her aunt being "gay" is no different than the relationship between her mom and I. They have a great family, we have a great family...and just because a few kids at school repeat the hate coming from their parents, that doesn't make a bit of it true.

Maybe I got off the track of this thread, so I'll say that my sister-in-law had sex with a man once, and found that she was attracted to women more....Point being is that society had nudged her into a man/woman relationship, only for her to find that it's not what she required. So, I'll throw my vote towards "it's somewhat related to genetics".



Edited to add:

Originally posted by astralhaze
Somewhat off-topic but not really, this board, as a whole, is pretty anti-homosexual. However, there is far more homoerotic humor here than any message board I have ever seen.

Eh...my sister-in-law tells jokes about her sexuality...I don't think that the trivial joking I see on this board = anti-homosexual.

[astralhaze]

Originally posted by VPI97
I hate the fact that society dictates that has to be a distinction between "gay" and "straight". My sister-in-law has two children with her partner (artificial insemination) and for the last few years, I didn't feel the need to say anything about their situation to my daughter. In the last few months, however, I can tell that she's been hearing things at school (she's in second grade). So when she asks questions now, I have to explain to her that regardless of what she's heard, her aunt being "gay" is no different than the relationship between her mom and I. They have a great family, we have a great family...and just because a few kids at school repeat the hate coming from their parents, that doesn't make a bit of it true.

Here here.

[TroyF]

Originally posted by astralhaze
With this audience I am sure this will be a dead end, but why is there anything wrong with or, as Fritz terms it, "defective" with homosexuality? To me, whether or not homosexuality is a choice or not is pretty much a no brainer. I mean, seriously, who in this society would choose to be homosexual? Considering the attitude of a very large section of society, probably the majority that it is evil, a sin, a defect, against nature, etc, and the persecution homosexuals put up with you would have to be insane to choose it. To me, that's an open and shut case. The larger question is what is wrong with homosexuality (without quoting The Bible please)?

I have a couple of problems with this paragraph.

1) Saying it is a choice does not mean it is a conscious choice. It's like saying our favorite color is "hardwired" When you were a kid, did you sit down for 3 hours determining what color was the most pleasing to you? I have no doubt that a lot of it is genetic. I don't think it all is. Again, I cite the sociological evidence of entire cultures that are homosexual. Maybe they were all hardwired, I just don't buy it.

2) What right do you have to tell someone not to quote The Bible? Let me say right off, I don't think there is anything wrong with homosexuality. However, a person who lives their lives by the word of God and The Bible has every right to use it to make their point. You may not think the point is valid and have every right to believe that. (as I said, I don't) There are some people who use the lines in The Bible as an excuse to hate. That's sad. There are other "Christians" who do believe those lines with all of their hearts, but treat gays better than many "non-Christians" do.

TroyF

[Draft Dodger]

Originally posted by astralhaze
dola

Somewhat off-topic but not really, this board, as a whole, is pretty anti-homosexual. However, there is far more homoerotic humor here than any message board I have ever seen. Don't know what that says exactly.

I think it says we all secretly have the hots for you.
or something.