OT: Something tells me justice will be served

HornedFrog Purple · 10-20-2003, 01:29 PM

http://www.msnbc.com/news/980078.asp

VIRGINIA BEACH, Va., Oct. 20 — In a surprise twist on the first day of suspected sniper John Allen Muhammad’s murder trial, a judge ruled Monday that the accused triggerman can defend himself against charges that he gunned down a Maryland man just over a year ago.

Oct. 19 — The sniper trial was moved to Virginia Beach after a judge ruled it was impossible to get a fair jury where the crime was committed. NBC’s Joe Johns reports.

THE RULING came after a private half-hour bench conference at the outset of the trial involving Judge LeRoy Millette Jr., Muhammad and defense and prosecuting attorneys. Millette and Muhammad spoke directly to one another for five minutes.

The judge said that Muhammad’s court-appointed defense lawyers, Peter Greenspun and Jonathan Shapiro, would be available to assist him in the capital case.

“His attorneys are now what is known as stand-by counsel,” Millette told the jury before instructing them on the law that they will be asked to apply in the case.

Prosecutor James Willett then began his opening statement by silently assembling a Bushmaster rifle allegedly used in the sniper killings. He also showed the jury pictures of the modified car with a hole in the trunk that investigators say was used for the shootings.

Willet also reminded jurors of the impact of the killings, saying that Muhammad’s Oct. 24, 2002, arrest again allowed “ordinary people going about ordinary tasks ... to do so without fear for their very lives.”

‘BASIC ABILITY TO REPRESENT HIMSELF’
Willett briefly addressed Muhammad’s decision to represent himself.

“It is an unusual but not unheard of thing for someone in his position to do,” Willett told the jury. “The court felt he did have at least the basic ability to represent himself.”

Muhammad’s alleged accomplice, Lee Malvo, who is scheduled to face trial later, was expected to appear in court later in the day.

Muhammad, left, listens to Judge LeRoy Millette Jr., center, as prosecutors Paul Ebert and James Willett and a sheriff's officer listen.

Prosecutors have not spelled out the order of their witnesses or the evidence, but Malvo was flown to the jail in Virginia Beach on Sunday from northern Virginia and has orders to appear in court, said Paula Miller, a spokeswoman for the Virginia Beach Sheriff’s Office.

Prosecutors would not say why Malvo was summoned. He refused to testify at a recent hearing and instead invoked his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. His appearance, however, could allow witnesses to testify they recognize Malvo and saw him with Muhammad.

“We don’t know if he’s here for another day or if he’s here longer than that,” Miller said.

Malvo is scheduled to go on trial next month in another of the killings. Both men could face the death penalty.

Muhammad is accused in the trial beginning Monday of gunning down Dean Harold Meyers at a Sunoco station outside Manassas, Va., on the night of Oct. 9, 2002.

Meyers, was 53, a Vietnam veteran and a project manager and design engineer from Gaithersburg, Md., who had worked for the same firm for 20 years.

Trials and tribulations of the century

Meyers was the seventh victim in a three-week shooting spree by a sniper who left 10 people dead in Virginia, Maryland and Washington, D.C.

A 42-year-old Gulf War veteran, Muhammad faces a possible death sentence or life in prison without parole if convicted on either of two murder charges against him in Meyers’ death, one of which is the first test of a state anti-terrorism law crafted after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks. Under this law, Muhammad could be convicted of murder even if he did not pull the trigger in the Manassas killing.

Muhammad also faces one charge of conspiracy and a weapons charge.

The jury that will hear the case against Muhammad includes many people with ties to the military. Experts said they expect it to favor the prosecution.

“In general, Virginia juries are going to be prosecution juries,” except in more urban areas, said Donald H. Smith, an Old Dominion University sociology professor who studies jury behavior.

The trial was moved to Virginia Beach after defense lawyers argued that every northern Virginia resident could be considered a victim because of the fear the shootings inspired.

MANY JURORS HAVE MILITARY TIES

The panel of 12 jurors, plus three alternates, was chosen Friday after four days of questioning. It includes a retired Navy pilot, the spouse of a retired Navy mechanic, an Air Force retiree whose husband also was in the Air Force, and a former Navy officer whose husband retired from the Navy.

The trial is the first to come out of the crime spree prosecutors have said was part of a plot to extort $10 million from the government. Malvo’s trial, in the Oct. 14, 2002, shooting death of FBI analyst Linda Franklin, begins Nov. 10 in Chesapeake, also in southeast Virginia.

Both suspects are being tried in Virginia first because of the state’s strong death penalty laws. Virginia has executed 89 people — second only to Texas’ 310 — since the U.S. Supreme Court permitted the reinstatement of capital punishment in 1976.

The high number of women on the jury — 10 — suggests the defense may already be focusing on keeping Muhammad from being executed, Chicago-based jury consultant Paul Lisnek said.

“The women may be more sympathetic and are generally less likely to put someone to death,” Lisnek said.

If the jury leans toward the prosecution, sparing Muhammad the death penalty might be an easier task.

“All the defense has to do is find one juror who won’t go along,” Lisnek said.

Malvo’s attorneys have indicated in pre-trial proceedings that they intend to argue Muhammad indoctrinated Malvo, while Muhammad’s defense team suggested in comments to potential jurors last week that they maintain Malvo was able to make his own decisions.

Thoughts?

Franklinnoble · 10-20-2003, 01:54 PM

I think a good old fashioned firing squad would be cheaper than lethal injection or the gas chamber. In fact, if it weren't for the high cost of timber, I'd prefer a gallows and a rope.

albionmoonlight · 10-20-2003, 02:00 PM

I think he has the right to represent himself. Indeed, it is one of our most fundamental rights. However, the situation distresses me because of the circus it could become with him at the helm of his defense. This trial will bring to mind a lot of bad memories for a lot of people--and his involvement as pro se defense counsel will only make it worse. The media, of course, will not help at all.

CraigSca · 10-20-2003, 02:08 PM

This reminds me a lot of the Long Island Railroad shooter. He represented himself as well, and tried desperately to "talk legal-ease". It was sickening to listen to, especially when he tried to cross-examine some of his own victims.

JonInMiddleGA · 10-20-2003, 02:13 PM

And when he's finished getting himself hung, watch for the appeal on the grounds of inadequate counsel.

Butter · 10-20-2003, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CraigSca
This reminds me a lot of the Long Island Railroad shooter. He represented himself as well, and tried desperately to "talk legal-ease". It was sickening to listen to, especially when he tried to cross-examine some of his own victims.

I remember that. I couldn't believe the composure with which some of the victims conducted themselves.

Like such moments as:
"That was when YOU shot me."

Of course in this case, the victim didn't survive. None of them did. So it will probably not be quite as sickening as the LIRR guy was.

GrantDawg · 10-20-2003, 02:18 PM

Did you see the SNL skit on the Long Island Railroad shooter trial? Tim Meadows best moment.

Draft Dodger · 10-20-2003, 02:24 PM

thankfully,
both of these guys were found guilty the second they were arrested. the trials, circus-like or otherwise, are just a technicality.

Noop · 10-20-2003, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Franklinnoble
In fact, if it weren't for the high cost of timber, I'd prefer a gallows and a rope.

Am I the only who finds this offensive?

Draft Dodger · 10-20-2003, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noop
Am I the only who finds this offensive?

perhaps

Fritz · 10-20-2003, 02:38 PM

Noop · 10-20-2003, 02:41 PM

Hmm so gallops and ropes are a good thing? Okay I get it hang him so everyone can feel good about themselves.

Fritz · 10-20-2003, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noop
Hmm so gallops and ropes are a good thing? Okay I get it hang him so everyone can feel good about themselves.

no, hang him so he dies

if people wanted to feel good he would be sentenced to dress up as the Hokie mascot and go to a turkey shoot.

HornedFrog Purple · 10-20-2003, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
And when he's finished getting himself hung, watch for the appeal on the grounds of inadequate counsel.

Where are our lawyers around here? Is this possible since he is defending himself he can file an appeal against himself?

I hope they decide to make this a closed-circuit affair and maybe hold the media circus at bay as best they can.

KevinNU7 · 10-20-2003, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
no, hang him so he dies.

And suffers.

Noop,
Why are you offended by this?

Fritz · 10-20-2003, 02:45 PM

BTW, getting arrested for this and tried in Virginia Beach is close to commiting suicide. He is a goner no matter who defends him.

Noop · 10-20-2003, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
no, hang him so he dies

if people wanted to feel good he would be sentenced to dress up as the Hokie mascot and go to a turkey shoot.

So the court should make a special sentence for him why not kill him like they the other criminals? Inject or shock him but to hang him? I guess its hard for me to explain where I'm coming from

Fritz · 10-20-2003, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noop
So the court should make a special sentence for him why not kill him like they the other criminals? Inject or shock him but to hang him? I guess its hard for me to explain where I'm coming from

oh, well given Virginia execution policy I think he will get the chair. I am in favor of hanging as a means of execution, but not for a special case.

Noop · 10-20-2003, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KevinNU7
And suffers.

Noop,
Why are you offended by this?

Maybe its because I've been reading to much Malcom X and Black Panthers but the shit irks me. When I here something about hanging I think of a slaves hanging from a tree. But whatever I wish I could articulate myself better to explain in detail why... I'll just ignore this thread and not make a big deal out of it.

albionmoonlight · 10-20-2003, 02:51 PM

He cannot defend himself and then claim inadequate counsel.

Ironically, one way in which he could get a new trial is if they do not let him represent himself when he is competent to do so. It's a frustrating situation because he has a right to run his own defense. However, the system will run a lot more smoothly and he will have ended up with a better defense if he would leave it to the professionals. I have the right to build my own house, but compared to a house that a contractor would build, it would really really suck. That's how this guy's defense will go. But hey, America gives you the freedom to do really stupid things. That's part of what freedom is.

Oh, and in case you were wondering, the reason that his lawyers are still there as "standby counsel" is so that we don't get 1/2 way through the trial and then have him claim that he needs a lawyer and make us start the whole thing over. If we get 1/2way through and he says that he needs a lawyer, stand-by counsel will jump right in.

cthomer5000 · 10-20-2003, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GrantDawg
Did you see the SNL skit on the Long Island Railroad shooter trial? Tim Meadows best moment.

Yeah, that was one of Tim Meadows finer performances. He was such an overlooked cast member.

and I believe Colin Ferguson is the LIRR guy we're all speaking of here.

Fritz · 10-20-2003, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noop
Maybe its because I've been reading to much Malcom X and Black Panthers but the shit irks me. When I here something about hanging I think of a slaves hanging from a tree. But whatever I wish I could articulate myself better to explain in detail why... I'll just ignore this thread and not make a big deal out of it.

Noop, I think you are drawing on some things that are not a factor here.

sabotai · 10-20-2003, 02:57 PM

Whenever I think of hanging, I think of Richard Hickock and Perry Smith, but that's probably because I read In Cold Blood a few too many times.

Draft Dodger · 10-20-2003, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noop
Maybe its because I've been reading to much Malcom X and Black Panthers but the shit irks me. When I here something about hanging I think of a slaves hanging from a tree. But whatever I wish I could articulate myself better to explain in detail why... I'll just ignore this thread and not make a big deal out of it.

ok, I think I understand where you are coming from now.
I don't automatically equate "hanging" to "lynching" - I don't think anyone else was thinking along those lines either.

Noop · 10-20-2003, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
Noop, I think you are drawing on some things that are not a factor here.

Care to explain what factors aren't there? Is he black? Check I assume the jury will not be of his peers. And someone here said gallows and rope I again assume he isn't black. Like I said before I wish I could articulate myself better to explain my point.

JeeberD · 10-20-2003, 03:04 PM

Plenty of white folks have been hung over the years, noop. It's not a death just reserved for black people...

scooper · 10-20-2003, 03:10 PM

Noop, white or black, hanging was once the form of execution. I see where you are coming from, but execution of the guilty at the gallows is not the same as murdering an innocent by hanging him from a tree.

The picture that popped into my head at the mention of gallows was one I've seen of the co-conspirators of the Lincoln assasination. Lynching never entered my mind.

Fritz · 10-20-2003, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noop
Care to explain what factors aren't there? Is he black? Check I assume the jury will not be of his peers. And someone here said gallows and rope I again assume he isn't black. Like I said before I wish I could articulate myself better to explain my point.

Peer means an American. That all anyone gets. I have no idea what color he is since I don't watch TV.

Ksyrup · 10-20-2003, 03:12 PM

This guy looks like a combination of the sherriff from Blazing Saddles and a really tired Denzel Washington. Just based on age, I think Denzel definitely gets the lead when this is made into a movie.

Draft Dodger · 10-20-2003, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noop
Care to explain what factors aren't there? Is he black? Check I assume the jury will not be of his peers. And someone here said gallows and rope I again assume he isn't black. Like I said before I wish I could articulate myself better to explain my point.

I don't give a fuck what color he is - I'm pretty sure he's guilty.

JonInMiddleGA · 10-20-2003, 03:14 PM

Interesting to see what visuals come to mind at the mention of rope & gallows. My first thought is Nuremburg.

Fritz · 10-20-2003, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
Interesting to see what visuals come to mind at the mention of rope & gallows. My first thought is Nuremburg.

I think of the old west

Radii · 10-20-2003, 03:15 PM

I am moderately offended by the line of thinking here. But I am a flaming liberal as well. I do, however, support the death penalty, and I believe that Muhammad, assuming he is found guilty, should be given the death penalty.

Where I differ from many of the opinions here is that I believe we are doing ourselves a disservice by treating Muhammad like he was a special case. Hanging him, a public execution, the horrible amount of media involvement in everything that is going to happen... all of the above I consider to be a disservice to the American people and the American judicial system. Let the system work, and let the man pay for his crimes with his life. Lets not glorify him and what he did any more than necessary.

edit: misspelled the damn guy's name :P

Noop · 10-20-2003, 03:15 PM

Fritz lets say you did a crime...Lets say you ran over a black kid...Now how would you feel about a jury of all black people? Would you consider them your peers?

KevinNU7 · 10-20-2003, 03:16 PM

Noop, In life people X hate people Y no matter how people Y act. Unfortunetly I think that you beleive people X to be an extremely large group of the population while I believe it to be a small extreme group. Maybe X and the Panthers shouldn't be all that you read

edit:spelling, grammar

cthomer5000 · 10-20-2003, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
Interesting to see what visuals come to mind at the mention of rope & gallows. My first thought is Nuremburg.

My first thought is Led Zeppelin.

Noop · 10-20-2003, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KevinNU7
Noop, In life people X hate people Y not matter how people Y act. Unfortunetly I think that you beleive people X to be an extremely large group of the population while I believe it to be a small extreme group. Maybe X and the Panthers are shouldn't be all that you read

Thats not only what I read but I've been reading it lately.

Fritz · 10-20-2003, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noop
Fritz lets say you did a crime...Lets say you ran over a black kid...Now how would you feel about a jury of all black people? Would you consider them your peers?

Dangerous ground you tread here noop. What you are talking about is a kind of legal segregation that is best left to history.

BTW, how do you know I am not black?

I tell you what, I was born in Miami. What race do you think that makes me?

KevinNU7 · 10-20-2003, 03:19 PM

My first thought was the Salem witches

JeeberD · 10-20-2003, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
I think of the old west

Ditto...

The Afoci · 10-20-2003, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noop
Fritz lets say you did a crime...Lets say you ran over a black kid...Now how would you feel about a jury of all black people? Would you consider them your peers?

So you are saying a group of black people will decide on the a case based solely on the color of a persons skin.

Same with white people. How about Chinese?

I thought OJ was innocent but smoked a bunch of weed during school, so I wasn't the greatest source for information then.

The Afoci · 10-20-2003, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
I tell you what, I was born in Miami. What race do you think that makes me?

Jesus?

JeeberD · 10-20-2003, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
BTW, how do you know I am not black?

Fritzy (and stretchy too!!!)

Noop · 10-20-2003, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
Dangerous ground you tread here noop. What you are talking about is a kind of legal segregation that is best left to history.

BTW, how do you know I am not black?

I tell you what, I was born in Miami. What race do you think that makes me?

Danerous ground? I don't know what your race is and to be honest you can say your from Texas and I still wouldn't know. SO what are you?

Fritz · 10-20-2003, 03:25 PM

FWIW, if I "did a crime" the jury would not be the issue. Anything other than guilty would be a gift.

Fritz · 10-20-2003, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noop
Danerous ground? I don't know what your race is and to be honest you can say your from Texas and I still wouldn't know.

Well, you assumed I was not black or your jury question would not make sense.

Noop · 10-20-2003, 03:29 PM

You know what I don't feel like defending myself against all of you, so whatever this issue is dead to me.

JAG · 10-20-2003, 03:32 PM

Ok noop, I see where you're coming from. However, this isn't a racial issue with wanting them to be hung. I can only speak for myself, although I think my opinion is that shared by many like Fritz and others who lived through the sniper attacks from a year ago, that no matter what race/religion/foot size etc... these people are, I would've wanted them hung.

JAG

Draft Dodger · 10-20-2003, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz
I tell you what, I was born in Miami. What race do you think that makes me?

I think it makes you gay and elderly.

KevinNU7 · 10-20-2003, 03:34 PM

Well you try to make people on here look racist and then you back away. Probably a good idea

10-20-2003, 02:13 PM	#5
JonInMiddleGA Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA	And when he's finished getting himself hung, watch for the appeal on the grounds of inadequate counsel. __________________ "I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis

10-20-2003, 02:24 PM	#8
Draft Dodger Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Keene, NH	thankfully, both of these guys were found guilty the second they were arrested. the trials, circus-like or otherwise, are just a technicality. __________________ Mile High Hockey

10-20-2003, 02:38 PM	#11
Fritz Lethargic Hooligan Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: hello kitty found my wallet at a big tent revival and returned it with all the cash missing	yes __________________ donkey, donkey, walk a little faster

10-20-2003, 02:41 PM	#12
Noop Bonafide Seminole Fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Miami	Hmm so gallops and ropes are a good thing? Okay I get it hang him so everyone can feel good about themselves. __________________ Subby's favorite woman hater.

10-20-2003, 02:45 PM	#16
Fritz Lethargic Hooligan Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: hello kitty found my wallet at a big tent revival and returned it with all the cash missing	BTW, getting arrested for this and tried in Virginia Beach is close to commiting suicide. He is a goner no matter who defends him. __________________ donkey, donkey, walk a little faster

10-20-2003, 01:54 PM	#2
Franklinnoble Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Placerville, CA	I think a good old fashioned firing squad would be cheaper than lethal injection or the gas chamber. In fact, if it weren't for the high cost of timber, I'd prefer a gallows and a rope.

10-20-2003, 02:00 PM	#3
albionmoonlight Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: North Carolina	I think he has the right to represent himself. Indeed, it is one of our most fundamental rights. However, the situation distresses me because of the circus it could become with him at the helm of his defense. This trial will bring to mind a lot of bad memories for a lot of people--and his involvement as pro se defense counsel will only make it worse. The media, of course, will not help at all.

10-20-2003, 02:08 PM	#4
CraigSca Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Not Delaware - hurray!	This reminds me a lot of the Long Island Railroad shooter. He represented himself as well, and tried desperately to "talk legal-ease". It was sickening to listen to, especially when he tried to cross-examine some of his own victims.

10-20-2003, 02:18 PM	#7
GrantDawg World Champion Mis-speller Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Covington, Ga.	Did you see the SNL skit on the Long Island Railroad shooter trial? Tim Meadows best moment.

10-20-2003, 02:51 PM	#20
albionmoonlight Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: North Carolina	He cannot defend himself and then claim inadequate counsel. Ironically, one way in which he could get a new trial is if they do not let him represent himself when he is competent to do so. It's a frustrating situation because he has a right to run his own defense. However, the system will run a lot more smoothly and he will have ended up with a better defense if he would leave it to the professionals. I have the right to build my own house, but compared to a house that a contractor would build, it would really really suck. That's how this guy's defense will go. But hey, America gives you the freedom to do really stupid things. That's part of what freedom is. Oh, and in case you were wondering, the reason that his lawyers are still there as "standby counsel" is so that we don't get 1/2 way through the trial and then have him claim that he needs a lawyer and make us start the whole thing over. If we get 1/2way through and he says that he needs a lawyer, stand-by counsel will jump right in.

10-20-2003, 02:57 PM	#23
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	Whenever I think of hanging, I think of Richard Hickock and Perry Smith, but that's probably because I read In Cold Blood a few too many times.

10-20-2003, 03:04 PM	#26
JeeberD General Manager Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The Town of Flower Mound	Plenty of white folks have been hung over the years, noop. It's not a death just reserved for black people... __________________ UTEP Miners!!! I solemnly swear to never cheer for TO

10-20-2003, 03:10 PM	#27
scooper College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cinn City	Noop, white or black, hanging was once the form of execution. I see where you are coming from, but execution of the guilty at the gallows is not the same as murdering an innocent by hanging him from a tree. The picture that popped into my head at the mention of gallows was one I've seen of the co-conspirators of the Lincoln assasination. Lynching never entered my mind.

10-20-2003, 03:12 PM	#29
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	This guy looks like a combination of the sherriff from Blazing Saddles and a really tired Denzel Washington. Just based on age, I think Denzel definitely gets the lead when this is made into a movie. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

10-20-2003, 03:14 PM	#31
JonInMiddleGA Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA	Interesting to see what visuals come to mind at the mention of rope & gallows. My first thought is Nuremburg. __________________ "I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis

10-20-2003, 03:15 PM	#33
Radii Head Coach Join Date: Jul 2001	I am moderately offended by the line of thinking here. But I am a flaming liberal as well. I do, however, support the death penalty, and I believe that Muhammad, assuming he is found guilty, should be given the death penalty. Where I differ from many of the opinions here is that I believe we are doing ourselves a disservice by treating Muhammad like he was a special case. Hanging him, a public execution, the horrible amount of media involvement in everything that is going to happen... all of the above I consider to be a disservice to the American people and the American judicial system. Let the system work, and let the man pay for his crimes with his life. Lets not glorify him and what he did any more than necessary. edit: misspelled the damn guy's name :P Last edited by Radii : 10-20-2003 at 03:17 PM.

10-20-2003, 03:16 PM	#35
KevinNU7 College Starter Join Date: May 2003 Location: Beantown	Noop, In life people X hate people Y no matter how people Y act. Unfortunetly I think that you beleive people X to be an extremely large group of the population while I believe it to be a small extreme group. Maybe X and the Panthers shouldn't be all that you read edit:spelling, grammar __________________ Boston Bashers - III.14 - (8347) Last edited by KevinNU7 : 10-20-2003 at 03:19 PM.

10-20-2003, 03:19 PM	#39
KevinNU7 College Starter Join Date: May 2003 Location: Beantown	My first thought was the Salem witches __________________ Boston Bashers - III.14 - (8347)

10-20-2003, 03:25 PM	#45
Fritz Lethargic Hooligan Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: hello kitty found my wallet at a big tent revival and returned it with all the cash missing	FWIW, if I "did a crime" the jury would not be the issue. Anything other than guilty would be a gift. __________________ donkey, donkey, walk a little faster

10-20-2003, 03:29 PM	#47
Noop Bonafide Seminole Fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Miami	You know what I don't feel like defending myself against all of you, so whatever this issue is dead to me. __________________ Subby's favorite woman hater. Last edited by Noop : 10-20-2003 at 03:30 PM.

10-20-2003, 03:34 PM	#50
KevinNU7 College Starter Join Date: May 2003 Location: Beantown	Well you try to make people on here look racist and then you back away. Probably a good idea __________________ Boston Bashers - III.14 - (8347)

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