Beliefs?

[EagleFan]

I didn't want to turn the st. cronin thread into a flame war (which can happen with these type of threads) so I decided to start another thread.

If we can be civil while discussing this I would seriously like to know what people's beliefs are and the reasons for these beliefs. I would like to pre-emptively ask mods to lock this thread if it turns into any kind of flame fest.

The reason that I ask is because I have serious questions about what I actually believe.

My background:

I went to a Christian school from K through 12. We had not only the normal classes that all schoos have but also had Bible class every year and for our High School years we added a "Christian Living" class.

This pretty much means that the first 18 years of my life provided a lot of exposure to Christian beliefs in God.

I always believed that one should live a good lfe but never really felt the Christian beliefs deep inside. I told myself that I did as I was pretty much raised to believe that but really never grasped the entire belief system deep down.


I can understand how people can look at some of what is out there and feel that a higher power had something to do with this. I can also understand how people can see other things out there and believe that a higher power would not allow that to happen.


Basically I have these folllowing questions that I just can;t get my mind wrapped around:

1) If there is a higher power why does he (she?) care if we worship him? With all this great power why would this entity care if we worship? Is this entity that much of an egomaniac?

2) If there is a higher power does it just care if we live well, without the need for constant worship?

3) Why is there such a negative reaction to possible life elsewhere fro the general religious community? If this entity has the ability to create life why would it limit the creation to just us?

4) If we are created in this entity's image, and we are not without sin, wouldn't that mean...

5) Why send his Son? What purpose does sending Jesus actually serve? I keep hearing to die for our sins but this makes no sense. If this higher power is the one forgiving our sins why would there be a need to "send his son" to die for us? Is this telling us that he's not the one actually making the rules? If that is the case then just what is out there as that changes everything?

6) Free will or not free will? Saying that one does not have free will makes no sense. If Hitler had no choice but to do what he did how can he be punished for it by the entity who made him do it?

7) Why even have us live on earth? If God created us with the goal of eventually going to heaven why not skip this on earth step and just create "people" who are worthy of being in haven and placing them in heaven. The whole hell thing sounds too much like a little kid with a magnifying glass sitting near an ant hill.


I really want to believe because of everything that I was taught growing up but I can't come up with a logical reason to.



Again, if this turns into a flame war I obviously can no longer delete a thread but will ask a mod to lock the thread at that point. I basically want to find out what others believe and see if there are some ideas which I may not be seeing.



Thanks,
Dave
aka: EagleFan

[molson]

To me, it's always seemed a tad arrogant to be anything but agnostic.

I mean, who the hell are we to know? We haven't figured out everything on earth yet. Atheism to me, is just as arrogant as having religious beliefs, because it's a very specific belief system, just like any other. How a human being, as limited as we are, can definitively decide there's no "higher being" seems pretty silly.

Maybe people can find there way into spirtuality somehow, by bits and peaces. But to assign a series of stories and rules to it, that many share...I just could never buy into that.

That's how I am, that's how my mind is. If my mind and "soul" were created by a higher power, this feelings are a result of that higher power. And then many (most?) religions say I'm dammed to hell, because I don't believe - when I was seemingly created by them, just to suffer.

[st.cronin]

I have tried many times to explain belief, but I think I never come close. Belief is a form of knowledge that can't be taught or explained. But it is knowledge. What I believe has the same power as what I know to be true for reasons of logic, deduction and induction.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I have tried many times to explain belief, but I think I never come close. Belief is a form of knowledge that can't be taught or explained. But it is knowledge. What I believe has the same power as what I know to be true for reasons of logic, deduction and induction.

See I feel that this is where the major mistakes are always made though. Belief is not fact, and if you replace fact with belief in a logical train of thought you lose the veracity of the logic.

I see and understand what you said, I just can't accept that type of computational result.

I believe many things, but I also believe that we're always discovering deeper and more elusive truths. Those new truths may well prove my beliefs wrong. So i must always be willing to modify my beliefs with up to date and verifiable knowledge.

I envy those who find solace in spirituality. They have an outlet that allows them to release their worries, their stress and their fears into some 'other' and gives them a measure of inner peace. Someday I hope to find either the real truth of life the universe and everything, but until then I'll simply have to be mollified by knowing that i don't know everything and keep trudging along with everyone else.

I think the thing I get most frustrated with is the problem of the 'open mind' its quite a catch-phrase. Everyone says they want to be open minded, but how many people ever truly are?

I could babble on but I'm losing my train of thought in the myriad of possible tangents in my head. I don't want to pick out specific items because this threead is about stating our own beliefs, not disecting others. I hope it stays civil EF, good luck.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

1) If there is a higher power why does he (she?) care if we worship him? With all this great power why would this entity care if we worship? Is this entity that much of an egomaniac?

2) If there is a higher power does it just care if we live well, without the need for constant worship?

3) Why is there such a negative reaction to possible life elsewhere fro the general religious community? If this entity has the ability to create life why would it limit the creation to just us?

4) If we are created in this entity's image, and we are not without sin, wouldn't that mean...

5) Why send his Son? What purpose does sending Jesus actually serve? I keep hearing to die for our sins but this makes no sense. If this higher power is the one forgiving our sins why would there be a need to "send his son" to die for us? Is this telling us that he's not the one actually making the rules? If that is the case then just what is out there as that changes everything?

6) Free will or not free will? Saying that one does not have free will makes no sense. If Hitler had no choice but to do what he did how can he be punished for it by the entity who made him do it?

7) Why even have us live on earth? If God created us with the goal of eventually going to heaven why not skip this on earth step and just create "people" who are worthy of being in haven and placing them in heaven. The whole hell thing sounds too much like a little kid with a magnifying glass sitting near an ant hill.


I really want to believe because of everything that I was taught growing up but I can't come up with a logical reason to.



Again, if this turns into a flame war I obviously can no longer delete a thread but will ask a mod to lock the thread at that point. I basically want to find out what others believe and see if there are some ideas which I may not be seeing.



Thanks,
Dave
aka: EagleFan

1. I've always felt the higher power, once someone is born in heaven, sends us to Earth to prove our worthiness to stay in heaven forever. We're down her just to prove we're allowed back. This does have the problem of people saying that God would then not be all-knowing.

2. I believe God wants us to recognize us for his power in giving us life. Living well is great and I do think he in some way recognizes those who live well but they are at some other level.

3. I have no idea. Either way, whether there is life out there or there isn't, it's a staggering thought. My other question is whether, if God is truly a Christian God, if he has sent down other "Jesuses" to other planets, etc. and if civilizations met they would find they have the exact same stories behind a major religion.

4. I've only taken the image line to be physical in nature....nothing more.

5. It was the quickest way to spread his message. Without it, the message may not have been spread.

6. I think God has some major plan and that for any decisions/events/etc that need to happen for his plan to occur, there is no free will. Everything else...free will.

7. See #1

[Groundhog]

All good questions, and all questions that occurred to me many times while growing up.

There are no right or wrong answers to any of them, honestly. The religious will have their answers, as will the agnostics and atheists. All you can do is read them all and see which ones sway you.

[Greyroofoo]

I'm an atheist until evidence dictates otherwise.

[Dutch]

1) If there is a higher power why does he (she?) care if we worship him? With all this great power why would this entity care if we worship? Is this entity that much of an egomaniac?

Does God care if you believe in him or not? Ultimately, that's a pretty good question, we have free will, if God exists, we have free will because of Him.

2) If there is a higher power does it just care if we live well, without the need for constant worship?

I think God's ultimate concern is that we live well, so we take care of one another. If you live in sin, you are generally hurting others by doing so, directly or indirectly.

3) Why is there such a negative reaction to possible life elsewhere fro the general religious community? If this entity has the ability to create life why would it limit the creation to just us?

I don't believe that. I think the foundations of life is based upon science, which could happen anywhere. I think life is an extraordinary event that happens outside the norm, but yeah, if it happens here, it can happen anywhere. The opposite might be to compare it to cancer in a body of life.

4) If we are created in this entity's image, and we are not without sin, wouldn't that mean...

God sins? Well, if you've read Genesis, Adam and Eve and all that, there is this whole 'nother entity that exists that created sin in man. (satan)

5) Why send his Son? What purpose does sending Jesus actually serve? I keep hearing to die for our sins but this makes no sense. If this higher power is the one forgiving our sins why would there be a need to "send his son" to die for us? Is this telling us that he's not the one actually making the rules? If that is the case then just what is out there as that changes everything?

I admit I have a hard time with this part of Christianity. The whole Christ part. I'm not sure, it doesn't make sense. It requires too much contemplation for me. My beliefs are very rudimentary and I grew up a Roman Catholic, so consider me jaded and very much in the same boat here. But part of the reason I don't understand is because I don't believe what certain people tell me. I don't trust them. So the closest way I've convinced myself to understand this is to read (and comprehend) the New Testatment. I haven't the time nor inclination to do that, but I suspect I'll get around to it one day, because it's a nagging question for me.

6) Free will or not free will? Saying that one does not have free will makes no sense. If Hitler had no choice but to do what he did how can he be punished for it by the entity who made him do it?

The good news is, of course, is that if there is a God, Hitler was punished accordingly and the people he slaughtered met a much better after-life than Hitler.

The bad news is, if there is no God and we're on our own, he killed all those people for fun and madness and it's bound to happen again without fair justice or penalty to those involved.

7) Why even have us live on earth? If God created us with the goal of eventually going to heaven why not skip this on earth step and just create "people" who are worthy of being in haven and placing them in heaven. The whole hell thing sounds too much like a little kid with a magnifying glass sitting near an ant hill.

He was lonely. He doesn't want to create good people (well, not since satan messed up the prototype), so he wants to discover good people. It's all up to us. Free will.

Personally, I'm convinced that if you lead a good life and basically follow the 10 commandments (they are pretty much universal after all) that you have already met His demands. Whether he exists or not, why not follow them?

I believe there is a God, I do not believe man's interpretation of God. I believe there is a lot of truth to the Bible. I do not believe man's interpretation of the Bible. So I'm convinced it's been mucked up pretty good already. But one day I'll read it and check it out for myself. Until that day, I'll respect God as my upbringing told me to. As Chris Rock said...."just in case".

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Personally, I'm convinced that if you lead a good life and basically follow the 10 commandments (they are pretty much universal after all) that you have already met His demands. Whether he exists or not, why not follow them?

I take it one step further and say, basically, just don't be an asshat. Treat other people well for the most part, be charitable, and... well... just act like a decent human being

I believe there is a God, I do not believe man's interpretation of God. I believe there is a lot of truth to the Bible. I do not believe man's interpretation of the Bible. So I'm convinced it's been mucked up pretty good already. But one day I'll read it and check it out for myself. Until that day, I'll respect God as my upbringing told me to. As Chris Rock said...."just in case".

I've heard a number of people basically say exactly this. My problem with it is that if there is a god of some kind and humans stuffed up his teachings when they committed it to text and turned it in to a religion, why wouldn't he/she/it correct it, or appear once again and settle all the religious turmoil that claims so many lives each and every day?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I believe there is a God, I do not believe man's interpretation of God. I believe there is a lot of truth to the Bible. I do not believe man's interpretation of the Bible. So I'm convinced it's been mucked up pretty good already. But one day I'll read it and check it out for myself. Until that day, I'll respect God as my upbringing told me to. As Chris Rock said...."just in case".

I am not sure I would 100% agree with everything you wrote out in the post this comes from, but this paragraph itself, I could have written myself. It's on the head.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I've heard a number of people basically say exactly this. My problem with it is that if there is a god of some kind and humans stuffed up his teachings when they committed it to text and turned it in to a religion, why wouldn't he/she/it correct it, or appear once again and settle all the religious turmoil that claims so many lives each and every day?

This would seem to go to the question, once again, of the source and existence of sin, and the reason for the search for the path to Heaven. If life is a test--if that part of the Bible is correct--than man's misinterpretation of God's word may be just another obstacle for those who wish to ascend to Heaven to overcome.

I don't know that that's true, of course, but it's a possible reason I can see for why God made that decision (to not intervene on man's re-definition of religion).

Remember, misinterpretation represents a rather wide target, along a path from 100% correct to absolutely nothing correct. If man has it, oh, say 70% right, maybe God is satisfied that he can allow the 30% wrong to stand, so long as the basics are still correctly upheld?

Food for thought, anyway.

[Chief Rum]

I don't know if this takes this into a new direction, and is thus, inappropriate to ask here (not my desire to threadjack), but Dutch's point about living the "good" life should be enough, even if not every tradition set out in the Bible is followed, brings up a question that has often preoccupied me: Do there exist social virtues without a basis in faith?

In other words, if there was no religion, no faith determining what is "good" and what is "evil", is there a natural state of things, faithless in its own nature, that would still exist amongst sentient beings? Or is the concept of "good" and "evil" only possible if it is defined by religion?

[SCgoatman]

Originally Posted by molson

To me, it's always seemed a tad arrogant to be anything but agnostic.

I mean, who the hell are we to know? We haven't figured out everything on earth yet. Atheism to me, is just as arrogant as having religious beliefs, because it's a very specific belief system, just like any other. How a human being, as limited as we are, can definitively decide there's no "higher being" seems pretty silly.

Maybe people can find there way into spirtuality somehow, by bits and peaces. But to assign a series of stories and rules to it, that many share...I just could never buy into that.

That's how I am, that's how my mind is. If my mind and "soul" were created by a higher power, this feelings are a result of that higher power. And then many (most?) religions say I'm dammed to hell, because I don't believe - when I was seemingly created by them, just to suffer.

since i appear to have at least encouraged some of this issue, i feel somewhat obliged to respond. I generally agree w/ Molson For simplicity sake i identify myself as an atheist; although a skeptical agnostic who does not believe in any major religion would be more precise. Brought up in a christian household, and unlike most "christians" i've actually read the bible cover to cover. And also read the koran cover to cover, as well as many buddhist and hindu texts. In addition to collegic theological education, I also have studied biologiy and engineering at advanced levels, as well as psychology, which helps explain many people's belief systems. the questions presented get very western civilization/chritian-centric, so really don't even warrant response.

My personal opinion is that anyone that is willing to accept what they were taught as a child simply because a parent/loved one preached such beliefs is quite ignorant; and everyone should critically analyze theology independantly. But I also understand that the vast majority of humans aren't capable of independant thought (so many examples from US politics on both the dem and repub sides over the last few decades prove this out). Which leads me to a very libertarian belief that as long as one accepts others rights to believe whatever they choose; one should believe whatever they feel is most true and/or benefits their lifestyle.

[Recoil]

Agnostic.

Can't give you the answers you're searching for, but I hope you find peace in whatever you end up believing.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I don't know if this takes this into a new direction, and is thus, inappropriate to ask here (not my desire to threadjack), but Dutch's point about living the "good" life should be enough, even if not every tradition set out in the Bible is followed, brings up a question that has often preoccupied me: Do there exist social virtues without a basis in faith?

In other words, if there was no religion, no faith determining what is "good" and what is "evil", is there a natural state of things, faithless in its own nature, that would still exist amongst sentient beings? Or is the concept of "good" and "evil" only possible if it is defined by religion?

Absolutely. It's not a coincidence that all religions (for the most part) preach the same basic social virtues. Every creature on the face of this planet has social norms, and we are no different.

[rowech]

I definitely think there is a basic nature of good and evil. I think intrinsicly most people know right from wrong. They have to be taught it and they still have to live it but I think most people, even from a somewhat young age, know right from wrong.

I'll throw another question out there for everyone... I've always felt that the way the universe works, gravity, nature, the planets, the stars, the solar systems, molecules, atoms, etc....all of it.....is simply too perfect to be something that happened by just a series of almost an infinite number of events that all occurred in a perfect way. That all of these things together don't disprove a God in some way but instead make it to me that a God is undeniable.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by rowech

I'll throw another question out there for everyone... I've always felt that the way the universe works, gravity, nature, the planets, the stars, the solar systems, molecules, atoms, etc....all of it.....is simply too perfect to be something that happened by just a series of almost an infinite number of events that all occurred in a perfect way. That all of these things together don't disprove a God in some way but instead make it to me that a God is undeniable.

To quote Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion:

Originally Posted by Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, Chapter 4, page 121

What is it that makes natural selection succeed as a solution to the problem of improbabilty, where chance and design both fail at the starting gate? The answer is that natural selection is a cumulative process, which breaks the problem of improbability up into small pieces. Each of the small pieces is slightly improbable, but not prohibitively so. When large numbers of these slightly improbable events are stacked up in a series, the end product of the accumulation is very very improbable indeed, improbable enough to be far beyond the reach of chance. It is these end products that form the subjects of the creationist's wearisome recycled argument. The creationist completely misses the point, because he (women should for once not mind being excluded by the pronoun) insists on treating the genesis of statistical improbability as a single, one-off event. He doesn't understand the power of accumulation.

[Ajaxab]

Originally Posted by molson

To me, it's always seemed a tad arrogant to be anything but agnostic.

I mean, who the hell are we to know? We haven't figured out everything on earth yet. Atheism to me, is just as arrogant as having religious beliefs, because it's a very specific belief system, just like any other. How a human being, as limited as we are, can definitively decide there's no "higher being" seems pretty silly.

That's a fair point, but it does lead to another question. Why is it arrogant to say one knows, but it isn't arrogant to say one doesn't know? Aren't both statements making claims of certainty (I definitively know vs. I definitively know I don't/can't/won't ever know)?

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

1) If there is a higher power why does he (she?) care if we worship him? With all this great power why would this entity care if we worship? Is this entity that much of an egomaniac?

2) If there is a higher power does it just care if we live well, without the need for constant worship?

3) Why is there such a negative reaction to possible life elsewhere fro the general religious community? If this entity has the ability to create life why would it limit the creation to just us?

4) If we are created in this entity's image, and we are not without sin, wouldn't that mean...

5) Why send his Son? What purpose does sending Jesus actually serve? I keep hearing to die for our sins but this makes no sense. If this higher power is the one forgiving our sins why would there be a need to "send his son" to die for us? Is this telling us that he's not the one actually making the rules? If that is the case then just what is out there as that changes everything?

6) Free will or not free will? Saying that one does not have free will makes no sense. If Hitler had no choice but to do what he did how can he be punished for it by the entity who made him do it?

7) Why even have us live on earth? If God created us with the goal of eventually going to heaven why not skip this on earth step and just create "people" who are worthy of being in haven and placing them in heaven. The whole hell thing sounds too much like a little kid with a magnifying glass sitting near an ant hill.

I'll preface this with the following: born-again Christian at the age of 12, fell out of the church during my teenage and early adulthood (did the whole "Myths to Live By" stuff in college), came back to the church after about 5-6 years of marriage. I'm not a biblical scholar either, but I'll try to answer some and find the answers to others .

1) I really doubt God's sitting there on a throne just waiting for people to bow down and feed him grapes. According to the Bible, God wants to have a relationship with you.

2) "constant" worship? Hmmm....well, God wants to have a relationship with us. He wants us to trust in Him. If we don't worship, by not going to church on Sunday, reading the Bible, praying, etc., how then can we have a relationship? Not making judgments on anyone on anything here, but it's illogical to say that one has a relationship with God, but then not attend church, pray, etc. Is it possible - probably - but I would say it makes it much more difficult.

3) Don't know - I personally haven't heard any negativity towards it. Who knows, there might be other life out there.

4) As others have said, image solely means physical traits.

5) In the old testament there was a lot of sacrificing going on - literally. Apparently, if you sacrificed something to God, your sins would be forgiven (the animal would take the fall for your sin, so to speak). God decided to change all that by giving his Son as the ultimate sacrifice. All we have to do is believe in Him, that He indeed did die for his sins. If we believe that, then we are forgiven. If we don't believe that, then we aren't - and since we're all sinners, and sin is punishable by death, then well, you get the story. According to the Bible, all the good deeds/works, etc., won't get you to heaven, only the belief in Jesus' dying for your sins will.

6) Definitely free will. God gives you a choice - either walk with Me or don't - up to you, pal

7) I think 7 ties in with 6. God is giving us a choice. He wants you to love Him, but it's ultimately up to you.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

To quote Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion:

Yeah, I'm afraid I don't quite understand this quote. Is he speaking to evolutionary natural selection, or is he speaking about the formation of the universe?

I'm afraid, from a math point of view, I don't understand the concept of accumulation. Can anyone shed some light?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Ajaxab

That's a fair point, but it does lead to another question. Why is it arrogant to say one knows, but it isn't arrogant to say one doesn't know? Aren't both statements making claims of certainty (I definitively know vs. I definitively know I don't/can't/won't ever know)?

It's maybe not arrogant, but it's possible it's ignorant/lazy? I don't know - I just throw myself at the mercy of the complexity of the universe and assume that someone who can't even win CIV IV at noble level can't possibility understand the deepest mysteries of the universe.

Where I think I feel your point the most though, is in the case of atheists. Athesism is a very firm, very confident "conclusion" that I don't see how anyone can come to with as little as we know.

People obviously "get something" out of spirtuality. I don't know what that is. My GUESS it it's self reflection, because that always makes me feel better in a totally non-religious context. But again, I can only analyze that based on my own experiences, which I just don't respect as being anything particularly powerful or relevant.

[JetsIn06]

I would consider myself an agnostic.

I was raised into a Methodist family. Went to pre-school at a church, sunday school during grade school, played in the church band until I was about 17 or so, etc.

Just as a little background, I didn't get baptized as a baby. When I was 13 or so and about to make my confirmation, my preacher asked everyone if they had been baptized. I was the only one who wasn't, so he brought me to the sanctuary and splashed some water on my head. I asked my parents why I was the only one, and my Mom said that baptism frees you of your sins (or something like that) and that to do it as a baby makes no sense. I agreed.

But from about 14-17, I really didn't know what I believed. To be honest, I know a part of me was scared to think that the God I learned about didn't exist, because I was taught in the Bible and in church that I would go to hell. I kind of lived in this limbo for a while. The interesting thing is that I always knew I did not agree with Catholicism for various reasons. My family was always against it as well. I thought Methodism was a pretty "cool" religion though. Anyway.

I continued to go to church, play in the band, but started to feel that it was only because I didn't have a choice. I didn't like that. I felt, why are my parents making me go? Who are they to decide what I believe?

Finally, winter break came around. I came home from school a few days before Christmas and my Dad and I were talking. He was telling me about a Christmas-eve sermon at the church. It slowly turned into me, for the first time, telling him my true thoughts. I was very surprised at what he said to me. He agreed with a lot of the things I was saying. I told him, "I don't think it's fair for me to believe that someone who is Jewish is going to hell because he doesn't accept Jesus." I gave him a few more and every time it seemed that he agreed with me. I told him that I didn't really want to go to the sermon.

When Christmas-eve rolled around, I was in my room and my Mom walked in.

"So, you got something to wear tonight?"

"Umm...didn't Dad talk to you? I decided I don't really want to go."

"WHAT! WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU DON'T WANT TO GO?"

I don't remember exactly what I said in response, but it was something along the lines of "I don't believe in this stuff anymore." She freaked out, telling me "WE RAISED YOU TO BE A CHRISTIAN!" I told her that it wasn't her place to tell me what to believe.

We made up, I went just to make her happy, and the next day I calmly told her what I was thinking.

Ever since then, they've never asked me to go to church and have been cool with it but we never really talked about it until about two months ago. It took four years.

Well, we had very small discussions about religion in general, but when I was visiting two months ago my Mom, Dad, sister and I talked for about 5 hours, just telling each other what we believed.

Sorry...Just realized this whole post really doesn't involved any of my beliefs!

To sum it up, I would consider my Dad a biblical scholar. He's read it more times that one could imagine, and has also read the Koran twice. He believes that the Bible is written by man, not my god. He believes that there are errors in it due to corruption, greed, etc. I agree with him. The only thing we differ on is the belief in the guy it is about.

As for me, I personally believe that Jesus got screwed. I believe that he existed. I believe that he was a great man. I know that I don't believe he was the son of god though. If Jesus was the son of god, I think he's looking down and saying, "WTF happened?"

I consider myself agnostic for one, I believe there is a chance Christianity is real. A small one, but I believe there's a chance. I also believe that there is a chance that Buddism, Hinduism, Greek Gods, Norse Gods, etc. etc. is real.

But mainly, I can't help but logically think about our universe. Nothing comes from nothing. Particles don't pop into the air out of nothing. Something created them. But what created that something? I'll never know, but it's fun to think about.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Yeah, I'm afraid I don't quite understand this quote. Is he speaking to evolutionary natural selection, or is he speaking about the formation of the universe?

I'm afraid, from a math point of view, I don't understand the concept of accumulation. Can anyone shed some light?

I believe he's speaking of both. From the math point of view, I'm not sure I can help there, but I'll take a shot.

Take yourself (not you in particular, but any specific person) for example. What are the chances that you would be where you are right now? A billion to one? A trillion to one? Going back to your parents, what if they had made different choices? Would you even exist? The fact is, you are who you are and where you are in life because of an accumulation of probabilities happening.

Maybe the butterfly effect would be another good example.

Anyhow, is this because of a divine being's design or is it simply because it is what it is?

[Marc Vaughan]

6) Definitely free will. God gives you a choice - either walk with Me or don't - up to you, pal

According to the bible we are pre-programmed with responses by God at the moment of birth, he knows what we'll become and how people will interact with us for all of our days ...

As such we only have the illusion of free will because of our limited perspective on the situation (ie. it appears to be freewill to us).

A similar situation exists for all of creation which is not God - ie. the Devil has no free will and is exactly what God intended when he created him, for whatever reason he was created.

(or don't you believe God is omnipotent?)

[molson]

The concept of free will just isn't consistent (to me) with the idea of an all-powerful god that created us.

I've made lots of decisions today already, and here are the kinds of things that led me to make those decisions: my personality, my experiences, my intelligence, my compassion, etc. God created all that, right? Didn't he create Hitler's ambition, and charisma, and bitterness?

The idea that God creates people, who only act out as the humans that they were created to be, only to face punishment and eternal damination because of the way God made them is probably the thing that turns me off from the whole religion thing the most.

It sounds like a good way to try to keep people in line, but not very logical (unless God's NOT a "good" God - an idea that nobody even really entertains for some reason). What if God DID create only to see suffering? Maybe he thinks its funny to see us toil and struggle and have glimmers of hope only to be thrown into hell at the end of our lives. Maybe we can't appreciate the suffering of hell until we've lived in relative peace on earth. What if the only goodness the universe has ever seen is humanity - sparks of goodness that are really only design errors?

In my mind, any of these scenerios are equally likely. If there's a god, that's how he made me, a skeptic about such things.

[Noop]

I believe in God. Although I don't believe in some all seeing, all knowing being who is watching my every move. My belief or rather suspicious is we were created by probability and not for some special purpose.

I don't think Jesus is God incarnate because why would a powerful being suffer just to get a point across? Seems pointless.

Like all things in life there must be balance between the good and the bad. If God is the creator of all things then God created evil just the same as God created good.

I don't like religion and think a majority of our problems can be sourced to some belief system.

That's all I have for now.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

According to the bible we are pre-programmed with responses by God at the moment of birth, he knows what we'll become and how people will interact with us for all of our days ...

As such we only have the illusion of free will because of our limited perspective on the situation (ie. it appears to be freewill to us).

A similar situation exists for all of creation which is not God - ie. the Devil has no free will and is exactly what God intended when he created him, for whatever reason he was created.

(or don't you believe God is omnipotent?)

+1

I was going to submit something similar.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

According to the bible we are pre-programmed with responses by God at the moment of birth, he knows what we'll become and how people will interact with us for all of our days ...

As such we only have the illusion of free will because of our limited perspective on the situation (ie. it appears to be freewill to us).

A similar situation exists for all of creation which is not God - ie. the Devil has no free will and is exactly what God intended when he created him, for whatever reason he was created.

(or don't you believe God is omnipotent?)

Looking into this further, I believe you are right. However, my mind just popped

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I believe he's speaking of both. From the math point of view, I'm not sure I can help there, but I'll take a shot.

Take yourself (not you in particular, but any specific person) for example. What are the chances that you would be where you are right now? A billion to one? A trillion to one? Going back to your parents, what if they had made different choices? Would you even exist? The fact is, you are who you are and where you are in life because of an accumulation of probabilities happening.

Maybe the butterfly effect would be another good example.

Anyhow, is this because of a divine being's design or is it simply because it is what it is?

Ah, that makes sense now - thanks for clearing it up for me.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Noop

I don't think Jesus is God incarnate because why would a powerful being suffer just to get a point across? Seems pointless.


I don't like religion and think a majority of our problems can be sourced to some belief system.

According to Christian theology, God loved/loves us so much that he gave his only son to save us.

Also, while I understand that you don't like religion (because hey, ultimately religion includes man, and we all know that men are not infallible, and therefore true religion gets mucked up), I'll also say that a majority of the good in the world can be sourced to some belief system.

[molson]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I'll also say that a majority of the good in the world can be sourced to some belief system.

That seems true in terms of our development as a species - that we "needed" religion to treat each other right. In that sense it has done its job well, as religious values have become so second nature to us, that people who aren't even religious have them.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by molson

Where I think I feel your point the most though, is in the case of atheists. Athesism is a very firm, very confident "conclusion" that I don't see how anyone can come to with as little as we know.

What "conclusion" is that?

[molson]

Originally Posted by sabotai

What "conclusion" is that?

That there's no god.

There's perhaps a lot of ways to define atheism. I mean the version where one has consciously rejected any possibility of "god".

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

According to Christian theology, God loved/loves us so much that he gave his only son to save us.

Also, while I understand that you don't like religion (because hey, ultimately religion includes man, and we all know that men are not infallible, and therefore true religion gets mucked up), I'll also say that a majority of the good in the world can be sourced to some belief system.

One could argue that much of the evil in the world can be sourced to some belief system as well.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by molson

That there's no god.

There's perhaps a lot of ways to define atheism. I mean the version where one has consciously rejected any possibility of "god".

Everyone has a different definition of atheism it seems. I just wanted to figure out exactly what it was you were saying (since I could have read them as shots at me since I call myself an "atheist" - I guess you'd consider me an agnostic then).

I like to keep definitions as simple as possible. To me, if you are not a "theist", you're an "atheist".

[EagleFan]

Thanks to the responses so far and for this not turnign into a flame war.

Some food for thought to what I have read so far:

God loves us so much that he sent his son to die for us... Again, why? If God is the one who forgives sin why did he need to do that? One of the commandments is Thou Shalt Not Kill yet he sent his son so that he would be killed which means that the act of killing his son was predetermined. In this case why should those responsible be punished if they had no choice but to do what they did? I know that leads to anotherpart of the discussion.

Sacrifices were made before his son was sacrificed... Again, this goes against the Thou Shalt Not Kill idea. Additionally where did this come from? I rememeber no mention of God saying "you have to kill somethng so that I can forgive you" in the Old Testament.

Back to the God loves us so much concept... If he loved us so much that he sacrificed his son why would he then allow for such evils throughout history to occur?



The more I think about this topic the more this theme comes to mind. Religion is the best way to allow those in power to control the masses. Either the fanatical religious types such as the Islamic radicals or the guilt based religions where they can control you from acting out (to an extent). This theme is even more obvious throughout early history.


Another question:

Why are we also limiting ourselves to the belief that there is either a God or that evolution took place (not saying us here but the debate seems to be always either one or the other and not both). If there is a God of some sort couldn't he have been responsible for merely beginning the chain of events that led to evolution?


Thanks again to all who are responding in a civil tone. The reasonfor his topic is basically just to find out what the various beliefs are. I guess I would classify myself as an agnostic based on this so far. I am not saying there is a God nor can I say there is not. Unfortunately I am not "programmed" to take things on faith. I need to see why things are the way they are.

[bignej]

If you are agnostic, you are an atheist. An atheist is simply a person who does not believe in a theistic God. It DOES NOT mean that you think one cannot exist, just that with current evidence, you don't right now. Sabotai said it perfectly.

Edit to add:
I am an atheist who is open to the possibilty of a God.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

If there is a God of some sort couldn't he have been responsible for merely beginning the chain of events that led to evolution?

Heh...Deism.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by bignej

If you are agnostic, you are an atheist. An atheist is simply a person who does not believe in a theistic God. It DOES NOT mean that you think one cannot exist, just that with current evidence, you don't right now. Sabotai said it perfectly.

My understanding of agnosticism is that holders to that belief say they believe in the possibility of the existence of higher power, but that they don't know what it is. Or another form of it, they admit they just don't know if God exists. That's the way I have heard it.

Atheists specifically believe there is no God. There is no doubt there, while there is in agnosticism.

[bignej]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

My understanding of agnosticism is that holders to that belief say they believe in the possibility of the existence of higher power, but that they don't know what it is. Or another form of it, they admit they just don't know if God exists. That's the way I have heard it.

Atheists specifically believe there is no God. There is no doubt there, while there is in agnosticism.

I've heard this before about atheists and agnostics. What definition says that there is no doubt? The point you are missing I think is that you think you can not change your mind if you say"Im an atheist". There is a reason you choose to be an atheist and you can change your mind. The popular definition of agnosticism says that we are too small( or stupid etc.) to understand how we began. This also falls under the atheim umbrella of not believing in a theistic God(not necessarily close minded). Christians and Muslims are theists and anyone who doesn't believe in a creator is, simply, an atheist(anti-theist).

[Neon_Chaos]

I'm glad I found this thread.

I've been having anxiety attacks at night lately. I can't sleep and my mind is just working overtime on thinking about death.

I'm only 26, and I know that I have a whole lot of life to live, but frankly, I've seen one too many friends die young in the past two years.

After much contemplation, I figured out that I am basically not afraid of dying per se, but that I really am scared shitless of dying young. (By young, I mean dying anytime before I'm in my 70's-80's). I want to live life. See the world. Have a family. Live to see my grandchildren and grow old and grey.

Part of my anxiety attacks involve me thinking about the existence of God.

I was born a Roman Catholic, almost became a Born-Again Christian in my teens, and am now teetering between Agnosticism and full-out Atheism.

I think that the Bible is a great source of inspiration. I also believe that it was written, compiled, and censored by man.

I believe that Jesus was a real person, and that he was a remarkable individual. I believe that Mohammed was also a real person, and that he was as remarkable as Jesus.

I am envious of people who have strong faith... I wish I could resign myself to the unknown like most people do, but I can't.

I think that if there is a God, then he really doesn't interfere in our daily lives. There's so much suffering and so many horrible things happening in the world that I've been pushed away from the belief of a loving God, if he did exist. Something good happens, God is good. Something bad happens, He works in mysterious ways. It's kind of a giant cop-out for me.

I will say that there is nothing more powerful than the faith of a person who lives in the third world. When you have almost nothing, faith and religion are the two things that you can hold on to.

I'm very very glad to have been able to get these things off my chest. I think it's helped me avoid an anxiety attack tonight.

[Cringer]

The main reason I think I will watch this thread is in the hopes of someone from a 'different' religion giving their point of view. Different meaning non-Christian, agnostic, or atheist.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by bignej

I've heard this before about atheists and agnostics. What definition says that there is no doubt? The point you are missing I think is that you think you can not change your mind if you say"Im an atheist". There is a reason you choose to be an atheist and you can change your mind. The popular definition of agnosticism says that we are too small( or stupid etc.) to understand how we began. This also falls under the atheim umbrella of not believing in a theistic God(not necessarily close minded). Christians and Muslims are theists and anyone who doesn't believe in a creator is, simply, an atheist(anti-theist).

That's semantics, though. Agnostics themselves consider them to be separate from atheists, and atheists seem to be rather certain where they themselves lie as well. I would just as much not lump the two groups together if they don't wish to be, based on some wordplay.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

My understanding of agnosticism is that holders to that belief say they believe in the possibility of the existence of higher power, but that they don't know what it is. Or another form of it, they admit they just don't know if God exists. That's the way I have heard it.

Atheists specifically believe there is no God. There is no doubt there, while there is in agnosticism.

The vast majority of atheists that I have known do not assert that there is no God.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by sabotai

The vast majority of atheists that I have known do not assert that there is no God.

Then by the definition as I know it, the vast majority of "atheists" you know are not atheists.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Then by the definition as I know it, the vast majority of "atheists" you know are not atheists.

Or maybe what you think the word "atheist" means isn't what it means.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Or maybe what you think the word "atheist" means isn't what it means.

Then what the world thinks the word "atheist" means is different than what you think it means, because my definition matches the world's.

[Chief Rum]

Seems there are two definitions of atheism, from what I have found. "Strong" and "weak". "Weak" is the "not theists", doesn't believe in any gods sort that bignej and sabotai seem to be referring to. "Strong" is the active, "there is no God", atheist, which is, I believe, common perception, albeit by a group that is mostly theist.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Seems there are two definitions of atheism, from what I have found. "Strong" and "weak". "Weak" is the "not theists", doesn't believe in any gods sort that bignej and sabotai seem to be referring to. "Strong" is the active, "there is no God", atheist, which is, I believe, common perception, albeit by a group that is mostly theist.

Those are not two different definitions, they are two different types. Both groups are "atheist", just like a Muslim and a Christian are both monotheist.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Those are not two different definitions, they are two different types. Both groups are "atheist", just like a Muslim and a Christian are both monotheist.

As someone who once considered himself an agnostic, I would be insulted to be called an atheist, and yet I fit under the weak definition of atheism. So, no, I reject labelling all "weak atheists" as atheists at all. It's not a different type of atheist. It's not an athiest at all.