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View Poll Results: Who will be in the Hall? | |||
Maddux, Garciaparra, and Ramirez will all make the Hall | 0 | 0% | |
Maddux and Garciaparra will, Ramirez won't | 6 | 10.91% | |
Maddux and Ramirez will, Garciaparra won't | 5 | 9.09% | |
Garciaparra and Ramirez will, Maddux won't | 0 | 0% | |
Only Maddux will | 44 | 80.00% | |
Only Garciaparra will | 0 | 0% | |
Only Ramirez will | 0 | 0% | |
None will make the Hall. | 0 | 0% | |
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll |
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06-28-2005, 06:34 AM | #1 | ||
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Here
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Chicago Cubs: Hall of Fame Discussion
I'll give a poll of the 3 players I think are most likely to make the Hall of Fame. Of course, some (most) teams won't come close to the criteria for the hall, so most of the time it will be the 3 best career on the team. It should be an interesting discussion for some teams, pretty boring for others (See AZ). Also, as an added bonus, I may occasionally do more than 1 set of 3 players for a team. Very rare, there may be a couple of teams who have more than 3 guys who could be hall-worthy. In that case, I'll think of something. So here we go. The poll choices will hopefully be obvious, but who knows. Go here to see everyone we've voted in.
Greg Maddux: Loathe him as I do, I'm pretty sure we're all in agreement that he is a lock for the Hall. Currently he has 312 wins and a 2.99 ERA for his career. 4 straight Cy Youngs, 14 of the 15 last gold gloves. Lock. Nomar Garciaparra: Wow, 2 years ago and this would have been an easy question. Now, it's gotten a bit tougher. He has more HR, RBI, 2B, 3B, and a higher average than Jeter, but he's missing a ring or 2. Not to mention the Red Sox won as soon as he was gone. I think if he stops being a pussy and puts up somewhat Nomar numbers the rest of his career, he's in. He's kind of like Ken Griffey Jr, only he didn't put up as good a numbers as Jr. did, so his margin for error is a bit less. So in conclusion, I doubt he'll get in unless he stops being a whale's vagina. Aramis Ramirez: I didn't anticipate a tough 3rd choice for the Cubs until I actually looked at the roster and saw, there aren't a lot of good, older guys. So Ramirez is chosen by default (see below why others weren't). He's 27, and should have 160 HR by years end. He's entering his prime, so I expect 35-45 HR seasons for the next 6-7 years (at least). So he could end up aroun 500 HR or so. If he gets there, he'll be in, but its too soon to tell with this one. A very talented player, but give it until his early 30's to make a better judgement. Too Young (or injured) to tell: Mark Prior: No one disputes he has talent, but he also has a large vagina. Stay healthy, and he has a chance at a great career. Kerry Wood: Its probably too late to salvage a career as a HOF starter. Could be an outstanding closer with his fastball. Carlos Zambrano Only 24 and an outstanding pitcher, could be like Prior, and I don't think he has a penchant for being a little bitch. Derek Lee: If he continues to put up 05 numbers for his career, then he'll get to be an interesting pick, but I doubt he'll have a chance. |
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06-28-2005, 10:14 AM | #2 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Put me in the maddux only camp, with prayers and daily sacrafices to the injury gods that a) Dusty Baker gets fired and b) Mark Prior magically becomes more durable and that in a few years he'll be on a list like this.
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06-28-2005, 11:02 AM | #3 |
College Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Edmond, OK
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Well, I voted Maddux and Ramirez. I know it's far too soon to know something like this, but that's kind of the point I guess.
In my opinion, Ramirez has all the tools to be a future Hall of Famer. Obviously, nobody can anticipate injuries, but if he remains healthy I think he'll be there. I feel similarly about Prior and Zambrano. All are young enough and have shown that they can put up the numbers. Wood has just missed too much time and is too old at this point to be considered a HOFer, and Lee is already almost 30 which would mean he'd have to have years like he's having this year for a very good stretch to get there. I don't think it'll happen. Just curious, Easy Mac, why do you dislike Maddux? I'm not sure if I've ever known anyone that hated Maddux. |
06-28-2005, 11:51 AM | #4 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
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I voted for Whale's Vagina...sorry, I mean Greg Maddux.
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06-28-2005, 12:07 PM | #5 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Back in Houston!
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A couple of friends and I were talking about best player of the era, and Clemens gets the automatic nod from "critics"- hell, even a lot of "best pitcher of all time" stuff and even Bill James was talking about it in the historical abstract. None of us really got it- we figured there were 4 pitchers in the argument (for "best of era") and those were Clemens, Maddux, Martinez, and Johnson. Each has their "warts" in this argument- Clemens really had that erratic "on year/off year" pattern for quite a while, Maddux had some high IP seasons early in his career with mediocre numbers to skew his stats, Martinez hasn't pitched as long as the other three so let's see some stats in those "older" years, and Johnson didn't get good until he was nearly 30. We just didn't understand the love affair with Clemens.
SI
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06-28-2005, 12:12 PM | #6 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Not too far away
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I can't say I'm a fan of the choices here. I think Wood or Prior and Lee belong on that list before Aramis.
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06-28-2005, 12:25 PM | #7 |
College Starter
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Thunderdome
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I think Zambrano and Garciaparra have an outside chance. I don't think Ramirez can hold this kind of production long enough to get the promised land. Wood and Prior are too injury prone to rack up enough wins to get there.
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06-28-2005, 12:47 PM | #8 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Dayton, OH
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Quote:
I think the whole reason why there is the love affair with Clemens is he is a power pitcher, he played for the two biggest teams in baseball (Red Sox and Yanks), and he was an ass, for which he got labeled a fierce competitor. |
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06-28-2005, 03:07 PM | #9 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Willow Glen, CA
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I completely and totally brain farted on the vote here. Not that it matters, but I voted on Ramirez and Maddux instead of just Maddux.
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Every time a Dodger scores a run, an angel has its wings ripped off by a demon, and is forced to tearfully beg the demon to cauterize the wounds.The demon will refuse, and the sobbing angel will lie in a puddle of angel blood and feathers for eternity, wondering why the Dodgers are allowed to score runs.That’s not me talking: that’s science. McCoveyChronicles.com. |
06-28-2005, 03:20 PM | #10 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Clemens, whatever you may think of him, is one of the 5 best pitchers in the history of baseball. As much as I love Maddux, who's also top 10 - Clemens is significantly better.
Of course, in terms of peak value, Pedro is the best pitcher we have ever known. |
06-28-2005, 03:34 PM | #11 |
College Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Burlington, VT USA
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Maddux, of those you listed.
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06-29-2005, 02:47 AM | #12 |
Pro Rookie
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Kansas City, Mo
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I have a hard time believing clemens is one of the 5 best in the HISTORY of baseball..
lets see Bob Gibson Sandy Koufax Cy Young Nolan Ryan Walter Johnson Just to name a few |
06-29-2005, 09:32 AM | #13 |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: New Mexico
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I think Garciaparra has a decent chance to make the Hall. His career is obviously in a down cycle these days, but a modest comeback, and he could end up with an Ernie Banks type career.
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06-29-2005, 09:47 AM | #14 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Burlington, VT USA
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Quote:
He's got a shot next year to pass Warren Spahn's win total of 363. I would rank him behind Young and Johnson and ahead of everybody else. |
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06-29-2005, 10:01 AM | #15 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
Roffle- Ryan is the most overrated pitcher in baseball - and Koufax is a close second. Ryan has a career ERA+ of 112 - a K/BB ratio of about 2 for his career. Koufax, while very good, had a short career, and had 4 really dominating seasons - his peak value comes close (but still short of) Clemens, but his career value isn't even close. Clemens has a career ERA+ of 141 going into what's supposed to be the downswing of his career- that's frigging amazing. He has a career K/BB ratio of 3 , significantly better than Ryan or Koufax. Gibson is good, but again- not in Clemens' class. Young and Walter Johhnson are the two with reasonable arguements - Walt may be the best pitcher of all time. Clemens ranks 4th on my list, behind Johnson, Grove and Young. |
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06-29-2005, 10:20 AM | #16 | |
Pro Rookie
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Quote:
Why aren't ypu putting Maddux there with Clemens then? You seem to have decided to use ERA+ and K/BB ratio as the two numbers to rank the pitchers. I am not aguing with that, but going by those Maddux also has a 141 ERA+, but has a higher K/BB ratio than Clemens. |
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06-29-2005, 10:23 AM | #17 |
Pro Rookie
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Dola,
Not to mention Pedro has a career ERA+ of 167 and has a K/BB ratio of over 4. |
06-29-2005, 10:27 AM | #18 | |
Hokie, Hokie, Hokie, Hi
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Kennesaw, GA
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Quote:
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06-29-2005, 10:29 AM | #19 |
Pro Rookie
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Double Dola,
You also said Clemens had a career K/BB ratio that was significantly better than Koufax. What's your definition of significant? Clemens' K/BB ratio is 2.967 (not 3 like you said) and Koufax's K/BB ratio is 2.933. |
06-29-2005, 10:30 AM | #20 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
Hey, I think Pedro has the highest peak of any pitcher ever - but his ERA+ is likely to head downwards as he enters the downside of his career. |
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06-29-2005, 10:35 AM | #21 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
Yes - they are very close- I'm certain Maddux is top 10, and may be well be no 5. I If I had the time, I'd calculate a quick and dirty career BAPIP - because I think (but am not certain) that Clemens had to play with defenses that weren't as good as Maddux's behind him. That being said, I certainly think the Maddux > Clemens arguement has a good case. Plus, at this point in their careers Clemens has slightly more career value (about a season more of innings pitched). |
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06-29-2005, 10:36 AM | #22 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
Good catch- that was my mistake- that was just in reference to Ryan- not Koufax. the arguement with Koufax is both on peak and career value. |
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06-29-2005, 10:38 AM | #23 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
Combined with career value - Johnson has about a 1000 innings less than Clemens so far in his career. Johnson's a HOF and probably a top 20 pitcher - but the advantage in ERA+ and K/BB isn't enough to make up for 5 seasons of peak value pitching. |
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06-29-2005, 11:53 AM | #24 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Back in Houston!
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Quote:
This was actually my argument when I was talking to a friend who was advocating Pedro (from the discussion above which started this). Sure he has the rate stats, but wait until he's pitched long enough to have the counting stats and let's see where he is then. SI
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06-29-2005, 12:18 PM | #25 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Decatur, GA
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We'll see about Pedro. It seems moving to the NL was good for him. Hell, he even beat the Yankees . It may allow him to continue pitching at a high level. Though even HE can't match the Pedro of the late 90s. No one can grab that peak value.
Ryan is totally overrated. He's not in my Top 5. He's not in my Top 10. Clemens, Maddux, and Pedro are all in my Top 10. As to whether Maddux or Clemens is better, that's a toss-up. I prefer Maddux, but I can definetly see the argument that Clemens is doing far better in his tail end. Btw, I voted for Maddux and Ramirez. I think Ramirez, as long as he stays healthy, will be able to put up good numbers, especially HR until his late 30s. That should get him in, but, it is too early to tell, really.
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06-29-2005, 12:41 PM | #26 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Quote:
Yeah, Ryan is overrated because most of his claims to fame are that he pitched so long. That said, I'm not sure anyone's catching that strikeout record for a very very very long time. Again, my problem with Clemens is that his bad years were during his peak times. It's expected that Maddux would slow down some as he gets to be 40, but Clemens had downright average years at age 30, 32, and 36- and, frankly, I can hardly blame the Red Sox for letting him go. If he doesn't get that swift kick in the ass, he's not even on the Top 100 pitchers list- hell, he stays in Toronto instead of going to New York, we aren't even talking this "best pitcher of all time" nonsense, but that's another story for another day. Maddux's worst years were at 22, 24, 25, 37, and 38. His peak from 94-98 were light years better than any stretch Clemens could muster and his best year (1994) had a psychotically good 273 ERA+ and he still had 202 IPs in the strike shortened year. SI
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06-29-2005, 02:34 PM | #27 |
Hall Of Famer
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Location: Decatur, GA
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I don't think it should matter that Clemens had his worst years during his 'peak'. Even with all those bad years during the peak, he still has the same career ERA+ as Maddux. That means he did that much better than Maddux during both of their non-peak years. And few 40+ year olds have done it as good.
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