Clutch

[korme]

Is there such a thing? I had the longest argument last night debating the merits of clutch. I was the only person against 3 others saying there is no such thing as clutch, particularly in baseball. My buddy made the argument of Brady in football, Horry/Jordan in basketball, Jeter in baseball. Having not played baseball as long as the other three did, my argument was less effective in that I was trying to say no batter should go to the plate and become a better hitter just because it's 2 men on, 2 outs in the 9th. They should be just as good in the first with no on, no out.. but my friend was saying it's a different mentality and that's what makes people clutch.

Also, I asked "Would you rather have Robert Horry take a three with 3 seconds left, down 2 or Ray Allen?" Allen being historically a better shooter, but Horry being historically a big game shooter, every single person pick Horry.

So please discuss and give me some wisdom.

[Joe]

don't you have better things to argue about?

[korme]

I'd also say it's not about being 'clutch' per se, but more to do with composure for someone to hit a game winner, or nail that perfect pass. Saying Jeter is clutch because he was able to make that play against Jeremy Giambi is an insult to any other shortstop who would have done the same thing in that same situation.

[korme]

Originally Posted by George W Bush

don't you have better things to argue about?

Absolutely not.

[McSweeny]

i know that Bill James did a study on 'clutch' and came to the conclusion that it could not be proved that 'clutch' existed.

[CraigSca]

Show me a guy who can't hit, but can in the clutch. Show me a guy who's a poor shooter who's great in the clutch. Oddly, players who are considered "clutch" are also among the elite in the league. Gee...I wonder what that means?

[Joe]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

i know that Bill James did a study on 'clutch' and came to the conclusion that it could not be proved that 'clutch' existed.

What about the clutch in my car? Doesn't that exist?

[molson]

"Clutch" exists everywhere else in life - some people just perform better in high-stress interviews, talking to girls in bars when others are watching, taking the SATs, ect. Some people handle that pressure, and other don't perform nearly as well in "clutch" situations. Why would sports be any different?

[MalcPow]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

i know that Bill James did a study on 'clutch' and came to the conclusion that it could not be proved that 'clutch' existed.

He's also said that, "We ran astray because we have been assuming that random data is proof of nothingness, when in reality random data proves nothing." I think James has actually backed off a lot of the clutch stuff and is now back in the ether of "there are too many factors involved and not enough data" to say anything either way.

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by MalcPow

He's also said that, "We ran astray because we have been assuming that random data is proof of nothingness, when in reality random data proves nothing." I think James has actually backed off a lot of the clutch stuff and is now back in the ether of "there are too many factors involved and not enough data" to say anything either way.

well that's what i was getting at with the way i worded my post

[kingnebwsu]

I think being "clutch" exists, whether or not it can be mathematically proven. To be considered "clutch", you have to be given several chances to prove yourself. Not many people on the Royals or D-Rays will ever be considered clutch, as the opportunity rarely presents itself. In basketball or on any good baseball team, chances are always there.

In my video games (my only basis for comparison), I'm a very clutch player. I get big kills/touchdowns/homeruns when they're needed. However, in real life, I'm not a very clutch guy. I get all shaky when my sports team is in crunch time. If I were a real sports player, I'd suck bad in crunch time. But put a controller in my hand and I'm good to kick some major ass.

I got nothing

[Taco]

Most professional athletes know how to play under pressure, but some guys seem to be able to remain focused in crucial situations a little better than others. And of course these are the same guys who are elite...for exactly that reason. They have proven that they make the plays when they count. So the answer is yes.

[MalcPow]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

well that's what i was getting at with the way i worded my post

Ha, sorry, it's just such a usual refrain Bill James, clutch, it doesn't exist, I think I wasn't reading that carefully and just responded to the usual stuff that comes with that.

[Taco]

Or maybe "clutch" is really just the absence of "tendency to choke"

[TazFTW]

I believe in clutch and I don't think you have to be elite to be clutch. I think Robert Horry is clutch but I would not consider him elite.

Originally Posted by Taco

Or maybe "clutch" is really just the absence of "tendency to choke"

If there is a clutch, there needs to be an opposite to clutch.

I would say Chris Webber and Patrick Ewing (at least in the Pros) are not clutch.

[ThunderingHERD]

Derek Jeter is clutch? Over the last three years (easiest data I could find) in close/late situations: 211 ABs .237 AVG 6 HR .708 OPS

I really hate the myth that Jeter is an elite player.

[DaddyTorgo]

i hafta agree that i hate the myth that Jeter is a "clutch" or an "elite" player. Call him the captain of the Yankees if you want, but at this point his "aura" is greater than his actual talent. Hell, when the Sox play the Yanks I actually root FOR Jeter to be up in key situations cuz he's so poor. He's no longer a 20 million dollar a year player (or whatever ridiculous number he makes) if he ever was. Fact is, even with the intangibles I wouldn't pay him anymore than say...6-7 mil a year at this point. He's vastly overpaid, and vastly overrated.

[Cringer]

[clintl]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Show me a guy who can't hit, but can in the clutch.

Mike Matheny this year.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by clintl

Mike Matheny this year.

At least you got the first half right.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by George W Bush

don't you have better things to argue about?

What is the matter with you? This is exactly the sort of thing guys his age should be talking about over a couple of beers.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

i know that Bill James did a study on 'clutch' and came to the conclusion that it could not be proved that 'clutch' existed.

Based on baseball numbers, but I think you could devise a pretty simple experiment to determine if people react to pressure or stressful situations differently. Use a heart rate monitor or something to measure players' pulses during the normal course of a game versus their pulses during a pressure situation. Compare that versus performance, etc. and you might have some quantifiable measurement for "clutch."

[Dutch]

There is definately a clutch factor in all of us. But I don't think it's about stepping up, it's about not falling apart in times of need.

Take golf for instance, I am a driving range master. But I get nervous at the 1st tee with a bunch of other people I don't know watching me.

So, to compensate for this problem, I've learned to not think about the situation. I walk up, take one practice swing, address the ball (on a higher than usual tee height) and swing a smooth easy stroke. 9 times out of 10, I hit a pretty good shot (about 210 yards with a varying degree of accuracy).

When I am conscious of people around me and try to hit the ball hard....I almost always screw it up.

When playing softball, when I am trying to impress my teammates, I usually hit a line drive to the shortstop (or worse) but when I'm just goofing around and jawing with the pitcher or catcher, I tend to make better contact with the ball. Like I'm in batting practice.

So the clutch factor, in my opinion, is the ability to not get wrapped up in the situation. It's not about stepping up your game in clutch-time, it's about keeping things on an even-keel regardless of the game situation.

[ThunderingHERD]

Originally Posted by Dutch

There is definately a clutch factor in all of us. But I don't think it's about stepping up, it's about not falling apart in times of need.

Take golf for instance, I am a driving range master. But I get nervous at the 1st tee with a bunch of other people I don't know watching me.

So, to compensate for this problem, I've learned to not think about the situation. I walk up, take one practice swing, address the ball (on a higher than usual tee height) and swing a smooth easy stroke. 9 times out of 10, I hit a pretty good shot (about 210 yards with a varying degree of accuracy).

When I am conscious of people around me and try to hit the ball hard....I almost always screw it up.

When playing softball, when I am trying to impress my teammates, I usually hit a line drive to the shortstop (or worse) but when I'm just goofing around and jawing with the pitcher or catcher, I tend to make better contact with the ball. Like I'm in batting practice.

So the clutch factor, in my opinion, is the ability to not get wrapped up in the situation. It's not about stepping up your game in clutch-time, it's about keeping things on an even-keel regardless of the game situation.

I agree. And this is an ability that nearly every professional athlete has, or else they wouldn't have made it to the pros.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by clintl

Mike Matheny this year.

Cool - when he can replicate this every year, I'll believe in his ability to come through in the clutch.

[Suicane75]

Dutch is clutch and Critch is clutch. I just wanted to type that out since it's been in my head for an hour and i need to get it out.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Show me a guy who can't hit, but can in the clutch. Show me a guy who's a poor shooter who's great in the clutch. Oddly, players who are considered "clutch" are also among the elite in the league. Gee...I wonder what that means?

Me, against our rivals bottom of the last inning down by 1 with a guy 2nd and 3rd with 2 outs and I put it in the gap. I'm the first to admit that I would much rather be hit for and just play the field. I think I'm on a 4-27 streak right now. Don't strike out, just always seem to hit it right to people. But all 4 of those hits came with 2 outs with guys on base while we were down (which is what we usually are).

It's the same thing with pretty much everything else I do. Put me under pressure and I'll do a helluva lot better than when not. School, sports, hell even online fps under pressure I'll be a lot better.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Dutch is clutch and Critch is clutch. I just wanted to type that out since it's been in my head for an hour and i need to get it out.

It's that liberating? Let me try.



Damnit, that back-fired.