Which team is more deserving of a BCS bid?

Joe · 11-28-2005, 03:06 PM

Teams A, B and C all have identical 9-2 records.

Team A beat #13 and #15 in the BCS. They lost to #4 and #24.

Team B beat #19 and #22 in the BCS. They lost to #2 and #3.

Team C beat #19 in the BCS. They lost to #1 and their other loss was to a team that finished the regular season 5-6

gstelmack · 11-28-2005, 03:06 PM

Team B.

I'm guessing C is Notre Dame?

GrantDawg · 11-28-2005, 03:07 PM

I need a diagram.

Joe · 11-28-2005, 03:07 PM

Raiders Army · 11-28-2005, 03:07 PM

Too little information. How much were the wins and losses by?

Butter · 11-28-2005, 03:08 PM

B is Ohio State, C is Notre Dame.

I'm guessing A is Miami?

st.cronin · 11-28-2005, 03:09 PM

B is for Buckeyes. A is for ... hmmm ... Miami?

dubb93 · 11-28-2005, 03:09 PM

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, when Notre Dame lost to Michigan State they weren't playing like they were 5-6. In fact, at that time they were a very highly ranked team and playing very much like it.

Butter · 11-28-2005, 03:09 PM

Can anyone spot the touchy ND fan here?

cthomer5000 · 11-28-2005, 03:10 PM

whichever team will genereate the most interest in the game.

pennywisesb · 11-28-2005, 03:10 PM

How about O for Oregon? 10-1

Joe · 11-28-2005, 03:11 PM

A is for Auburn

Joe · 11-28-2005, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Can anyone spot the touchy ND fan here?

I sure can't

Butter · 11-28-2005, 03:13 PM

Unfortunately for Auburn, there's no way in hell they get an at large BCS bid. However, if the BCS ends up taking Oregon and ND as at-larges, then you have an attractive BCS undercard in the Capital One Bowl with Ohio St. - Auburn.

We need a playoff. Probably not for this season, but for the previous 4 seasons and the 4 ahead where the top few teams are barely differentiable.

BishopMVP · 11-28-2005, 03:13 PM

Which one brings in the biggest TV audience and ensures a sell-out?

st.cronin · 11-28-2005, 03:14 PM

Notre Dame posted a winning record; honestly, they should really be in the championship game.

VPI97 · 11-28-2005, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Notre Dame posted a winning record; honestly, they should be awarded the national championship.

Fixed.

scooper · 11-28-2005, 03:20 PM

College football isn't played in a vaccum. Comparisons are hard to make. Under the BCS rules signed by all of the conferences, ND has qualified. You know darned well that money talks and the Irish will get in. Heck, they will finish in the top 8, how are they not deserving?

If any BCS conference teams get left out, maybe they should look at the guaranteed conference champion spots. How is it fair that a team gets hot at the right time but may not be one of the top eight teams in the country?

Is ND deserving? Based on the criteria drafted by your conferences, yes. Is Ohio State deserving? Definately. Oregon? Absolutely. I think Auburn is as well. But there are only two at large spots. And the bowls that put up the money get to pick them. That's the bottom line.

If you want a perfect college football world, get a playoff. Otherwise, the conferences are stuck with what they signed off on. ND's going to the Fiesta Bowl. Deal with it.

And no, I'm not touchy. It is what it is. These are bowl games, not a playoff.

scooper · 11-28-2005, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VPI97

Fixed.

No, that would be Alabama. If Notre Dame counted titles the way they do, they'd have over 20.

heybrad · 11-28-2005, 03:24 PM

Deserve has got nothing to do with it.

KWhit · 11-28-2005, 03:26 PM

Bowl games are silly exhibitions anyway.

scooper · 11-28-2005, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWhit

Bowl games are silly exhibitions anyway.

In reality, yes. Only one game matters to the final rankings.

If you're not #1, does finishing fifth rather than 7th really matter?

Huckleberry · 11-28-2005, 03:31 PM

Too bad it's not next year. Then Oregon, Ohio State, and Notre Dame would all be in the BCS. And the argument would be between Auburn and Miami for the last at-large bid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooper

If you're not #1, does finishing fifth rather than 7th really matter?

Yes, but only in a self-fulfilling way. Athletic departments will hype themselves based on number of Top 5 finishes, etc.

VPI97 · 11-28-2005, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooper

If you're not #1, does finishing fifth rather than 7th really matter?

Yes. Not all teams have the luxury of jumping up through the rankings if they win two games like Notre Dame does. If VT wins out, due to the way the pollsters like to work, we'll likely start in the top 5 next season...if we lose our bowl game, they we may not be in the top 10. That's a huge difference if you hope to be a national championship contender...just ask Auburn.

KWhit · 11-28-2005, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooper

In reality, yes. Only one game matters to the final rankings.

If you're not #1, does finishing fifth rather than 7th really matter?

Nope. Which is why the bowl game is the least interesting game of the year to me. I'd rather watch UGA play Kentucky than watch them in the bowl game.

Joe · 11-28-2005, 03:36 PM

it matters BIG TIME, for what VPI already said

KWhit · 11-28-2005, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George W Bush

it matters BIG TIME, for what VPI already said

Which is just dumb. I'm not saying it's incorrect, just dumb.

A team's performance last year shouldn't affect their chances at a title this year.

MrBigglesworth · 11-28-2005, 03:40 PM

As a couple people mentioned, who is deserving of the game is irrelevant. It's why I hate the bowl system. It rewards teams for having alumni support instead of how well they play on the field. Take ND for example. The teams they have beaten that have a winning record are: Michigan (7-4), BYU (6-5), and Navy (6-4). That's a non-BCS resume. I understand that they have to play the teams that are on their schedule, but they also have two losses! The truth is, their place in the polls is due to luck. They played teams early in the season that the pollsters thought would be good (Pitt, Michigan, Purdue, MSU) that turned out to be turds.

Joe · 11-28-2005, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWhit

Which is just dumb. I'm not saying it's incorrect, just dumb.

No dispute from me on that count.

Huckleberry · 11-28-2005, 03:46 PM

Auburn is frequently brought up regarding preseason impact on championship résumés. Now they may not have been able to pass OU or USC regardless, but the fact is they weren't undone by preseason polls as much as everyone wants to think.

They were a unanimous #3 in the computers. The computers don't care about last season. Auburn was closer to #1 in the human polls than they were to #2 in the computer polls.

Their non-conference schedule was Louisiana-Monroe, The Citadel, and Louisiana Tech. Creampuff.

Mr. Wednesday · 11-28-2005, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

Take ND for example. The teams they have beaten that have a winning record are: Michigan (7-4), BYU (6-5), and Navy (6-4). That's a non-BCS resume. I understand that they have to play the teams that are on their schedule, but they also have two losses! The truth is, their place in the polls is due to luck. They played teams early in the season that the pollsters thought would be good (Pitt, Michigan, Purdue, MSU) that turned out to be turds.

There's more justification for ND's ranking than that, though -- after all, the Sagarin composite has the Irish 6th, and that's completely unbiased (in the sense of not knowing a priori who ND is). Of course, that's partly driven by the Irish losing two games by a combined four points, but even the mov-independent component has ND 10th.

You can whine about ND's schedule if you want, but in comparison with Oregon (31st), Miami (33rd), or Auburn (66th), at 20th according to Sagarin it looks pretty damn good.

VPI97 · 11-28-2005, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

but the fact is they weren't undone by preseason polls as much as everyone wants to think.

Sure...if Auburn was higher in the pre-season polls but still behind USC and Oklahoma, they would have likely finished the same way as they did. But you can't dispute a scenario that says that if you shuffle around the pre-season rankings and put Auburn higher than USC & Oklahoma, then the odds are great that Auburn would have played in the Orange Bowl. And since I don't think anyone disputes the notion that final rankings influence pre-season rankings, then bowl game results definitely matter.

MrBigglesworth · 11-28-2005, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

There's more justification for ND's ranking than that, though -- after all, the Sagarin composite has the Irish 6th, and that's completely unbiased (in the sense of not knowing a priori who ND is). Of course, that's partly driven by the Irish losing two games by a combined four points, but even the mov-independent component has ND 10th.

ND averages 10th in the computer polls. OSU 4th, Oregon 6th, Miami 8th. So, the 'completely unbiased' (your words) ratings say that ND is not worthy of a BCS on merit alone.

Mr. Wednesday · 11-28-2005, 04:09 PM

It may be that Auburn would have played in the Orange Bowl; if that occurred, those of us who follow the mathematical rankings would be talking about how either USC or Oklahoma (whichever one got left out) got screwed. I don't really see where concluding that the polls did the right thing for the wrong reasons gets us.

Mr. Wednesday · 11-28-2005, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

ND averages 10th in the computer polls. OSU 4th, Oregon 6th, Miami 8th. So, the 'completely unbiased' (your words) ratings say that ND is not worthy of a BCS on merit alone.

I was discussing ND's poll standing, not their BCS merit. Also, I happen to think that there is greater merit in computer rankings that take mov into account (as long as they do so reasonably), and I think it's fair to discuss such when considering the bowl-worthiness of the Irish.

VPI97 · 11-28-2005, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

It may be that Auburn would have played in the Orange Bowl; if that occurred, those of us who follow the mathematical rankings would be talking about how either USC or Oklahoma (whichever one got left out) got screwed. I don't really see where concluding that the polls did the right thing for the wrong reasons gets us.

I have no idea what you're trying to say. I thought the discussion was whether bowl results matter or not...and as long as they influence pre-season rankings, then I would say that they do.

Warhammer · 11-28-2005, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VPI97

Yes. Not all teams have the luxury of jumping up through the rankings if they win two games like Notre Dame does. If VT wins out, due to the way the pollsters like to work, we'll likely start in the top 5 next season...if we lose our bowl game, they we may not be in the top 10. That's a huge difference if you hope to be a national championship contender...just ask Auburn.

Let's not forget, ND's first two wins were against ranked teams. The fact that they were not as good as hyped is not ND's fault.

ND played a schedule that looked to be brutal at the start of the season. Let's not forget that at the time they lost to MSU, MSU had only lost one game. Let's also not forget that the game went to overtime after ND came back from 10 points down to tie it up in the last 6 minutes. Let's also not forget that USC should have been called for a penalty on the final play of the game that saw them get their TD to win the game.

Additionally, let's not forget that the conference commissioners and presidents all agreed to the current system so they could keep their money in the big conferences. Let's not forget that they only opened the game up to the "non-BCS" conferences under threat of litigation under which they buckled because they knew if it went to court they would lose.

So quit hating the Irish because of the bowl system the other 56 or so teams that make up the power conferences created is coming back to bite them in the ass.

Warhammer · 11-28-2005, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

ND averages 10th in the computer polls. OSU 4th, Oregon 6th, Miami 8th. So, the 'completely unbiased' (your words) ratings say that ND is not worthy of a BCS on merit alone.

Let's not forget what the BCS is for, to pit 1 vs. 2. All the other teams need to do is win their conference championship or finish in the top 12. The Irish are finishing in the top 12, so according to the BCS itself, they are worthy of the bid.

Let me ask this, was the 1983 NC State basketball team unworthy because they had 10 losses? No, because they won the championship according to the rules for the sport. Were they a better team than Houston? No, but they were on the day that it mattered.

MrBigglesworth · 11-28-2005, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Let's not forget what the BCS is for, to pit 1 vs. 2. All the other teams need to do is win their conference championship or finish in the top 12. The Irish are finishing in the top 12, so according to the BCS itself, they are worthy of the bid.

Let me ask this, was the 1983 NC State basketball team unworthy because they had 10 losses? No, because they won the championship according to the rules for the sport. Were they a better team than Houston? No, but they were on the day that it mattered.

The question is who is more deserving.

MrBigglesworth · 11-28-2005, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Let's not forget, ND's first two wins were against ranked teams. The fact that they were not as good as hyped is not ND's fault.

ND played a schedule that looked to be brutal at the start of the season.

That is the whole point, they got their high poll position because of the hype of the teams they beat. Their schedule did look brutal, and their first two wins looked really good. Turns out, their schedule was average and the teams they beat were below average. Only the initial impressions get taken into account with the polling though, not reality.

Warhammer · 11-28-2005, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

The question is who is more deserving.

According to the bowl committees, it looks like ND is. After all, the bowls are big evil corporations out to make a few bucks!

Warhammer · 11-28-2005, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

That is the whole point, they got their high poll position because of the hype of the teams they beat. Their schedule did look brutal, and their first two wins looked really good. Turns out, their schedule was average and the teams they beat were below average. Only the initial impressions get taken into account with the polling though, not reality.

But, their SOS is pretty good compared to the other teams up for the spot. Personally, I agree with the sentiment that things should never come to this, but that is the system.

For everyone who says that the NCAA football schedule is one big playoff, this is an example of how it isn't. If it was, there would be a clear cut team that deserves to go.

kcchief19 · 11-28-2005, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

The question is who is more deserving.

In an ideal world, yes. But college football is not an ideal world.

You can't blame the bowls or Notre Dame for this. Blame the six BCS conferences who conspired to lockup the championship game for themselves by locking out the other conferences and then bent over and let Notre Dame walk all over them in establishing criteria for how the Irish qualify for the BCS. Then you can also blame the public who will post higher TV ratings for Notre Dame in a bowl game than any almost any other school you could get.

panerd · 11-28-2005, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Let's not forget what the BCS is for, to pit 1 vs. 2. All the other teams need to do is win their conference championship or finish in the top 12. The Irish are finishing in the top 12, so according to the BCS itself, they are worthy of the bid.

I think people lose sight of what the BCS was created for. It isn't an alternative to a tournament, but it definitely is better than what we had 10-15 years ago. Where your undeafeated teams might have been from the big 8 and the pac 10 and instead of playing each other they played in seperate bowls. And if you want to talk about the little guys, at least they have some say in this current system. Not a chance in hell that any smaller school is playing in a New Year's Day bowl before the revamped BCS.

Joe · 11-28-2005, 09:22 PM

why is it that Notre Dame fans are so quick to point out that ND lost the USC game in the final moments, and yet forget to mention that they barely won the Stanford game in the final moments?

Warhammer · 11-28-2005, 10:15 PM

I'll gladly say that is what happened. However, the Irish did not have to resort to a penalty to score the winning points a la Reggie Bush pushing Lienart in.

Mr. Wednesday · 11-28-2005, 10:22 PM

Get off the thing about Bush pushing Leinart in -- that penalty is almost never called under any circumstances.

Huckleberry · 11-28-2005, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warhammer

I'll gladly say that is what happened. However, the Irish did not have to resort to a penalty to score the winning points a la Reggie Bush pushing Lienart in.

Only if you don't consider blatant holding and offensive PI penalties.

(The offensive PI not being on Stovall's last catch but moreso on about 3 different long passes on the evening)

MrBigglesworth · 11-28-2005, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcchief19

In an ideal world, yes. But college football is not an ideal world.

GWB's question is who is more deserving.

cthomer5000 · 11-28-2005, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

GWB's question is who is more deserving.

The question is flawed.

How about this question? Which college football team from New Jersey is most deserving of a BCS bid?

11-28-2005, 03:08 PM	#6
Butter Coordinator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Dayton, OH	B is Ohio State, C is Notre Dame. I'm guessing A is Miami? __________________ My listening habits

11-28-2005, 03:09 PM	#9
Butter Coordinator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Dayton, OH	Can anyone spot the touchy ND fan here? __________________ My listening habits

11-28-2005, 03:10 PM	#11
pennywisesb College Benchwarmer Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Los Angeles, California	How about O for Oregon? 10-1 __________________ Myspace Profile

11-28-2005, 03:13 PM	#14
Butter Coordinator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Dayton, OH	Unfortunately for Auburn, there's no way in hell they get an at large BCS bid. However, if the BCS ends up taking Oregon and ND as at-larges, then you have an attractive BCS undercard in the Capital One Bowl with Ohio St. - Auburn. We need a playoff. Probably not for this season, but for the previous 4 seasons and the 4 ahead where the top few teams are barely differentiable. __________________ My listening habits

11-28-2005, 03:46 PM	#30
Huckleberry College Starter Join Date: Dec 2001	Auburn is frequently brought up regarding preseason impact on championship résumés. Now they may not have been able to pass OU or USC regardless, but the fact is they weren't undone by preseason polls as much as everyone wants to think. They were a unanimous #3 in the computers. The computers don't care about last season. Auburn was closer to #1 in the human polls than they were to #2 in the computer polls. Their non-conference schedule was Louisiana-Monroe, The Citadel, and Louisiana Tech. Creampuff. __________________ The one thing all your failed relationships have in common is you. The Barking Carnival (Longhorn-centered sports blog) College Football Adjusted Stats and Ratings

11-28-2005, 03:06 PM	#2
gstelmack Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cary, NC	Team B. I'm guessing C is Notre Dame? __________________ -- Greg -- Author of various FOF utilities Last edited by gstelmack : 11-28-2005 at 03:07 PM.

11-28-2005, 03:07 PM	#3
GrantDawg World Champion Mis-speller Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Covington, Ga.	I need a diagram.

11-28-2005, 03:07 PM	#4
Joe Pro Starter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Minneapolis	yup

11-28-2005, 03:07 PM	#5
Raiders Army Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Black Hole	Too little information. How much were the wins and losses by?

11-28-2005, 03:09 PM	#7
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	B is for Buckeyes. A is for ... hmmm ... Miami?

11-28-2005, 03:11 PM	#12
Joe Pro Starter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Minneapolis	A is for Auburn

11-28-2005, 03:13 PM	#15
BishopMVP Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Concord, MA/UMass	Which one brings in the biggest TV audience and ensures a sell-out?

11-28-2005, 03:14 PM	#16
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	Notre Dame posted a winning record; honestly, they should really be in the championship game.

11-28-2005, 03:20 PM	#18
scooper College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cinn City	College football isn't played in a vaccum. Comparisons are hard to make. Under the BCS rules signed by all of the conferences, ND has qualified. You know darned well that money talks and the Irish will get in. Heck, they will finish in the top 8, how are they not deserving? If any BCS conference teams get left out, maybe they should look at the guaranteed conference champion spots. How is it fair that a team gets hot at the right time but may not be one of the top eight teams in the country? Is ND deserving? Based on the criteria drafted by your conferences, yes. Is Ohio State deserving? Definately. Oregon? Absolutely. I think Auburn is as well. But there are only two at large spots. And the bowls that put up the money get to pick them. That's the bottom line. If you want a perfect college football world, get a playoff. Otherwise, the conferences are stuck with what they signed off on. ND's going to the Fiesta Bowl. Deal with it. And no, I'm not touchy. It is what it is. These are bowl games, not a playoff.

11-28-2005, 03:24 PM	#20
heybrad Norm!!! Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Manassas, VA	Deserve has got nothing to do with it.

11-28-2005, 03:26 PM	#21
KWhit Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Conyers GA	Bowl games are silly exhibitions anyway.

11-28-2005, 03:36 PM	#26
Joe Pro Starter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Minneapolis	it matters BIG TIME, for what VPI already said

11-28-2005, 03:40 PM	#28
MrBigglesworth College Starter Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: PA	As a couple people mentioned, who is deserving of the game is irrelevant. It's why I hate the bowl system. It rewards teams for having alumni support instead of how well they play on the field. Take ND for example. The teams they have beaten that have a winning record are: Michigan (7-4), BYU (6-5), and Navy (6-4). That's a non-BCS resume. I understand that they have to play the teams that are on their schedule, but they also have two losses! The truth is, their place in the polls is due to luck. They played teams early in the season that the pollsters thought would be good (Pitt, Michigan, Purdue, MSU) that turned out to be turds.

11-28-2005, 04:09 PM	#34
Mr. Wednesday Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: South Bend, IN	It may be that Auburn would have played in the Orange Bowl; if that occurred, those of us who follow the mathematical rankings would be talking about how either USC or Oklahoma (whichever one got left out) got screwed. I don't really see where concluding that the polls did the right thing for the wrong reasons gets us. __________________ Hattrick - Brays Bayou FC (70854) / USA III.4 Hockey Arena - Houston Aeros / USA II.1 Thanks to my FOFC Hattrick supporters - Blackout, Brillig, kingfc22, RPI-fan, Rich1033, antbacker, One_to7, ur_land, KevinNU7, and TonyR (PM me if you support me and I've missed you)

11-28-2005, 09:22 PM	#45
Joe Pro Starter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Minneapolis	why is it that Notre Dame fans are so quick to point out that ND lost the USC game in the final moments, and yet forget to mention that they barely won the Stanford game in the final moments?

11-28-2005, 10:15 PM	#46
Warhammer Pro Starter Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Dayton, OH	I'll gladly say that is what happened. However, the Irish did not have to resort to a penalty to score the winning points a la Reggie Bush pushing Lienart in.

11-28-2005, 10:22 PM	#47
Mr. Wednesday Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: South Bend, IN	Get off the thing about Bush pushing Leinart in -- that penalty is almost never called under any circumstances. __________________ Hattrick - Brays Bayou FC (70854) / USA III.4 Hockey Arena - Houston Aeros / USA II.1 Thanks to my FOFC Hattrick supporters - Blackout, Brillig, kingfc22, RPI-fan, Rich1033, antbacker, One_to7, ur_land, KevinNU7, and TonyR (PM me if you support me and I've missed you)

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