anyone watching Dollhouse (FOX show)?

[cthomer5000]

Anyone watching Dollhouse? The newest Joss Whedon show (Firefly, Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Angel).

First episode premiered tonight on Fox. So i guess i've started this thread to discuss the show.

I'll admit up front that I'm a massive Whedon fan, but I'm also criticial as shit of things I like. So I won't be a fanboy if this thing is a turd.

First impression:

'Good' first episode. The premise has promise, but I'm slightly concerned about Eliza Dushku's ability to be the chameleon that should be necessary of the lead character.

[samifan24]

What's the story with this show? I remember reading about all the hype surrounding it and now its premiere episode airs on a Friday night? What happened to this show? It was supposed to be the next big thing, the new Whedon project everyone would watch, and now it's on Friday nights? Seems strange that such a big change would occur before a single episode aired.

[cthomer5000]

No idea. I'm honestly very, very disconnected from TV. My DVR is full of soccer games and Simpsons episodes. I only watched this because it's my boy Whedon.

FOX has treated him really roughly in the past (take a minute to read up on the airing history of 'Firefly' and you would swear they were actively submarining the show).

FWIW it is following the Terminator show, which was apparently moved to Fridays. I know i've seen more than a few promos pushing the two together.

I quit on Terminator after season 1, so I'm not sure if that got moved because it wasn't pulling it's weight, or if these two were specifically bundled to try to boost Friday night and provide a strong lead-in for Dollhouse.

Someone a little more in the groove with TV could probably offer some input.

[Eaglesfan27]

We DVR'd it and will be watching it sometime this weekend. I'm also a Whedon fan.

[FrogMan]

I've also recorded it and plan on watching it over the weekend. Quite intrigued by it.

FM

[Travis]

Favorite writer, check.

Favorite actress from a...male perspective, check.

Other actors I've liked from other series, check.

I'll be watching this until Fox cancels it in about 10 episodes.

[ISiddiqui]

Thought it was pretty decent first episode. I tend to think Joss Whedon is incredibly overrated, but it has some promise. We'll see where they tend to go with it.

Spoiler

I'm guessing a bit part will be preventing "leakage" of the Dollhouse life to "engagement" personalities

[EagleFan]

Was out tonight and missed it but since it has Eliza Dushku I am definitely going to be watching.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I quit on Terminator after season 1, so I'm not sure if that got moved because it wasn't pulling it's weight, or if these two were specifically bundled to try to boost Friday night and provide a strong lead-in for Dollhouse.

Oddly enough I just finished reading an article about the show earlier tonight which is the only way I had any idea it existed/was premiering. Boiled down, it seems the network has very little confidence in the show being able to pull its weight in viewers, so they're figuring the best chance to give it time would be on Friday night when expectations are lower (because the number of Households Using Television or HUT is lower). The pairing with Terminator is no accident, figuring the two might be compatible.

Media Life Magazine - 'Dollhouse,' headscratcher but for a few

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Oddly enough I just finished reading an article about the show earlier tonight which is the only way I had any idea it existed/was premiering. Boiled down, it seems the network has very little confidence in the show being able to pull its weight in viewers, so they're figuring the best chance to give it time would be on Friday night when expectations are lower (because the number of Households Using Television or HUT is lower). The pairing with Terminator is no accident, figuring the two might be compatible.

Media Life Magazine - 'Dollhouse,' headscratcher but for a few

The pairing makes sense for some obvious reasons... they shows both have a sci-fi basis, and on a smaller level, there are probably a lot of Whedon nerds watching Terminator simply because Summer Glau is in it (she was a major cast member of Firefly).

I'm hoping for the best, expecting the worst after what happened with Firefly. As long as Fox actually tries to support this show, i think it will make it to a second season. I mean, Buffy and Angel were pretty damn successful shows, so it's not like Whedon hasn't succceeded in TV before.

Also, this is a mid-season show, so FOX only has one foot in the water to begin with. They didn't come out flying with 20+ episodes.

edit: Also, i wouldn't be surprised if Whedon received some assurances when agreeing to do this show. Stuff like actually airing the shows in the right order, and in a standard timeslot.

[ISiddiqui]

I mean, Buffy and Angel were pretty damn successful shows, so it's not like Whedon hasn't succceeded in TV before.

IIRC, both were on the CW (or predecessors), right?

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

IIRC, both were on the CW (or predecessors), right?

Fair point. Buffy move between WB and UPN for the last 2 years i think as well. So still not quite major league success.

[ISiddiqui]

I think that's the problem. These type of interesting sci-fi, fantasy premises can work very well on a network like the CW or cable, but usually have problems expanding beyond that to the general audience of the big network channels. And the premise for this show is even more esoteric than, say, vampire hunting.

[Drake]

The wife and I watched this tonight, and I was struck, once again, by a couple of ongoing themes that permeate Whedon's work.

Essentially, Dollhouse is another window into Whedon's fascination with the fembot from Buffy. I'm not sure why this idea fascinates him so much, but I think it has something to do with his inner conflict about writing for television/movies/media. He's enamored of this idea of "roles". His archetypal role is the "badass hottie" (i.e., Buffy, Faith, River from Serenity), but equally fascinated by how people undermine those roles by thinking for themselves (Faith's transformation from bad to good, River overcoming her programming, the fembot overcoming/expanding her programming and turning into something dangerous).

Then you've got vampires that act like good guys, Watchers that act like bad guys, space outlaws who are really heroes, etc.

But I'm getting off topic. The essence of the fembot thing is this idea that there are all of these women who are completely blank slates -- they can be programmed to fit into any role the creator devises...except they always find a way to subvert the program. Doing so makes them dangerous (in sometimes bad, sometimes good and always interesting ways). When you think about it, that isn't much different from the relationship a television writer/creator/producer has to the actors performing his script.

In some ways, Buffy was a fembot. She was the Once in Every Generation...who ended up completely subverting the "program" written for her life/destiny. River was a fembot -- a perfect killing machine engineered from childhood, who also subverted the role foisted upon her. And we're already seeing Echo countermanding the role in which she's been cast through glitches in her neural programming.

It'll be interesting to see how he continues to explore this theme.

[Drake]

dola...

It's also entirely possible that this "theme" is a combination of Whedon's frustration with women not behaving the way he thinks they "should" and his own personal masturbation fantasy.

I mean, if I got to work with Eliza Dushku all the time, I'd be conflicted about theme vs. masturbation fantasy, too.

[Travis]

In some ways I'll agree with you Drake, but from what I've read this wasn't just Whedon's vision but a collaboration with Dushku. I'm definitely giving this show a lot of leash as I've been a big fan of most of Whedon's work, but one thing I really liked about the first episode was that for the most part they went with a finesse approach vs just slayering her up Faith style. I'm assuming we'll see her in more of an action role going forward, but nice to see they aren't afraid to go this route too.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I recorded it and will watch it.

Whedon's involvement gives it the benefit of every doubt. He's never steered me wrong before. He's been responsible for 3 out of my top 10 TV shows of all time pretty much. Buffy, Angel, and Firefly were all great.

[MrDNA]

Gosh, I can't imagine FOX (Arrested Development) screwing around (Futurama) with good (Firefly) shows! uke:

[Crapshoot]

Shit, I wanted to - but didn't know it was on tonight (watched Firefly with some friends ). Replaying somewhere?

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Shit, I wanted to - but didn't know it was on tonight (watched Firefly with some friends ). Replaying somewhere?

With Fox it should be on hulu.

[sterlingice]

Or Fox's website

SI

[cthomer5000]

It's definitely on hulu.com

[RainMaker]

I have seen zero advertising for this show besides a weird ad they have inside Battlefield: Bad Company online. I was shooting at some guys, turned left, and noticed a broken billboard for the show. One of the weirdest uses of online advertising I've seen.

[Crapshoot]

Just watched it. Not sure how I feel. It could be interesting, but it didn't grab me initially the way Firefly I did. That being said, its Whedon, so its an extended look from me.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Drake

dola...

It's also entirely possible that this "theme" is a combination of Whedon's frustration with women not behaving the way he thinks they "should" and his own personal masturbation fantasy.

I mean, if I got to work with Eliza Dushku all the time, I'd be conflicted about theme vs. masturbation fantasy, too.

I don't follow this part of your interpretation at all.

[cthomer5000]

To expand upon my major concern for this show...

The show itself is, in theory, going to be about this one central character (Echo), who is programmed to be a different person week to week. I would expect this to require a pretty flexible actress, one able to convince us she is a totally different person weekly, not just the same chick in a different costume. I've seen Duskhu extensively in Buffy, and in a movie here or there. I don't think anyone would describe her as too skilled an actress. She was at her best just doing the 'tough chick' role in Buffy.

And this is what begins to bother me about the politics of getting a show on the air. I'm sure Whedon needed a name to sell to FOX to get this thing greenlit in the first place. Unfortunately, i highly doubt it's best for the show for her to be the lead. I mean, even on the same show, i'm guessing Amy Acker (appeared as the sort of house physician in the first episode), would be a better fit for the lead role. Or an unknown who actually seems to have real acting talent.

In the end I hope i'm pleasantly surprised, and that Dushku shows us range never previously displayed, but i've got my doubts.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

To expand upon my major concern for this show...

The show itself is, in theory, going to be about this one central character (Echo), who is programmed to be a different person week to week. I would expect this to require a pretty flexible actress, one able to convince us she is a totally different person weekly, not just the same chick in a different costume. I've seen Duskhu extensively in Buffy, and in a movie here or there. I don't think anyone would describe her as too skilled an actress. She was at her best just doing the 'tough chick' role in Buffy.

And this is what begins to bother me about the politics of getting a show on the air. I'm sure Whedon needed a name to sell to FOX to get this thing greenlit in the first place. Unfortunately, i highly doubt it's best for the show for her to be the lead. I mean, even on the same show, i'm guessing Amy Acker (appeared as the sort of house physician in the first episode), would be a better fit for the lead role. Or an unknown who actually seems to have real acting talent.

In the end I hope i'm pleasantly surprised, and that Dushku shows us range never previously displayed, but i've got my doubts.

I'm willing to give Whedon's judgment on this the benefit of the doubt until Dushku proves him wrong. Worst case scenario is this at least uses up one of his remaining two series that Fox has him under contract for, best case is we get treated to another great Whedon series for a prolonged period of time.

[jeff061]

I'm thinking the show is not going to be as static as Eliza in a difference skin every episode. Still not a huge fan of hers.

[Raiders Army]

We watched this yesterday after we had watched Friday night's episode of Battlestar Galactica. Maybe it was because we were invested into the BSG universe and this just seemed...a little confusing and uninteresting.

We watched the "pilot" of Firefly and was meh about it. We didn't watch anything else of Firefly until we watched the DVDs.

I think Whedon's writing is a slow burn. You have to watch a few episodes to get invested into the characters and then it becomes a "must see" show. It's not so much the genre that makes us come back and watch a show, but it's the characters. We'll give it at least a season.

[wade moore]

I am a huge firefly fan, so of course I watched this.

I have VERY much the same concerns as ct. For this show to really work the way it's designed you have to have an actress with a fair amount of range. I haven't seen Dushku much (I didn't watch Buffy et al), but I'm not convinced she has it.

A part of me thinks it would have been smarter not to rely on one of the "actives" but rather have a few that it focuses on and rotates from episode to episode.

We'll see. The pilot was enough for me to record the series, but I'm a little skeptical about its longevity.

[Shkspr]

The beauty of the premise is that they've already worked any range limitations on the part of Dushku into the script.

Unconvincing in a particular imprint? Always has the same mannerisms? That's not bad acting; that's just bleedthrough. Like when you clean a slate, you can always see what's underneath. When Echo comes out looking and sounding the same in every character, that's just fragments of the different imprints building a gestalt personality that persists across treatments.

[jonesz]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I think Whedon's writing is a slow burn. You have to watch a few episodes to get invested into the characters and then it becomes a "must see" show. It's not so much the genre that makes us come back and watch a show, but it's the characters. We'll give it at least a season.

This is a good blog if anyone is interested: "TV Worth Watching"...the writer is a TV critic David Bainculli. He's watched the first handful of episodes and basically reinforces your comment. The first two episodes are slow/confusing, but the third really starts to bring it all together.

I have my concerns about Eliza as well. I was pretty annoyed by her "acting" in the first episode. The other annoying part was the casting of a young actor in the "mindwiper" roll. If he was portrayed as an uber-cybergeek taking orders I'd buy it, but he seems to have way too much autonomy / authority.

Overall I'll give it a shot through the first three episodes, but I'm thinking it may go the way of "Fringe" for me...interesting premise, but not for me.

[DaddyTorgo]

how'd eliza look in it? if she looked hot i might check it out

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

And this is what begins to bother me about the politics of getting a show on the air. I'm sure Whedon needed a name to sell to FOX to get this thing greenlit in the first place.

Actually that's backwards. FOX had Dushku attached to an unnamed show and she called up Whedon and brought him in. If you'll note, Dushku is one of the executive producers of the show.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Media Life Magazine - Fox's Friday 'Dollhouse' debut fizzles

Fewer commercials and a seemingly built-in fanbase of Joss Whedon fanatics couldn’t bring “Dollhouse” to life. Fox’s new drama launched to a mere 4.7 million total viewers Friday at 9 p.m., according to Nielsen.

Adults 18-49 ratings weren’t immediately available. But the much-hyped show, presented with limited commercials in the same model as first-year success “Fringe,” placed third in its slot in viewers, behind CBS’s “Flashpoint” and ABC’s “Supernanny.”

Whedon, the creator of “Buffy the Vampire Slayer,” had received loads of hype for the show last year, when Fox picked up the drama. But the network ordered the pilot retooled and then dumped the show on little-watched Friday night, signaling that it had low expectations for the program.

Numbers for the show, and for Friday evening, will be updated when they are released later today.

I would think DVR+7 data would have to help this one but it's definitely not a sizzler out of the box based on this. Which I can't imagine anyone thought it would be.

edit to add: Seeing this reminded me I had the overnights for Atlanta in my inbox. Might be an indicator of what the nationals will show, as the first 15 minutes were #1 in the time slot for total households but dropped over 25% of that audience by the 10:15-10:30 segment, and dropped to fourth in the timeslot by the final quarter hour. Oddly enough the show that appears to have gained that audience? Supernanny. The 18-34 numbers make sense of that, as the ABC show nearly tripled Dollhouse in that demo, but I'll be darned if I would have thought the show would have that sort of strength with the younger demos. Also worth noting (in my mind at least), Dusku & Wheadon drew better with young women in Atlanta (1.1 F18-34) than with young men (0.8 M18-34). I would have figured she would have pulled better with the guys than the gals.

[sterlingice]

JIMGA, what were the numbers for the lead-in (tho, frankly, this is a thinly veiled attempt to get some information about Terminator's pick-up chance for season 3). I've heard that the show's likely not going to be renewed, which is a real shame since it's one of my favorites if not my favorite out there right now

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

Here's some of the speculation about TSCC, which paints an even grimmer picture as it questions whether the episodes already in the can will even air.

The updated overnights from Friday show Dollhouse actually beating TSCC 2.0 vs 1.5 in the P18-49. And unlike Atlanta, Dushku nationally pulled men better than women, actually winning the slot in a couple of younger demos. Terminator meanwhile fares better with women than men. Off that first week I'd say the two shows may not be as compatible as it seemed at first blush, and if not then it wouldn't surprise me to see them go with the last six episodes of Prison Break sooner than planned in order to see if that combination works better.

And if the talk is about whether Terminator will even hold onto it's time slot as originally planned then I'd say the odds of a third season aren't something I'd put any money on.

Something that struck me as being really relevant to both these shows even before having it kind of pointed out in the linked story above is that broadcast probably isn't where either of them belong. 75% of 18-49's who were watching TV on Friday night weren't watching any of the broadcast networks. By Saturday night, albeit a holiday which always makes for screwy numbers, the figure was 90% of 18-49s using television weren't watching broadcast.

It's pretty obvious what the target demo is watching: cable, either basic, tiered, or pay. So why the hell don't shows like this go there where they can be relatively successful instead of being the next failed network show? I'm sure cost of productions plays a big role, some things are just too expensive for cable's more modest revenue but it still seems to me that it's probably better at least for the production companies & the actors to have a cable hit than a network flop. But I've never really gotten a sense that very many of the shows lobby for a cable slot instead of sealing their own fate from the get go.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Here's some of the speculation about TSCC, which paints an even grimmer picture as it questions whether the episodes already in the can will even air.

The updated overnights from Friday show Dollhouse actually beating TSCC 2.0 vs 1.5 in the P18-49. And unlike Atlanta, Dushku nationally pulled men better than women, actually winning the slot in a couple of younger demos. Terminator meanwhile fares better with women than men. Off that first week I'd say the two shows may not be as compatible as it seemed at first blush, and if not then it wouldn't surprise me to see them go with the last six episodes of Prison Break sooner than planned in order to see if that combination works better.

And if the talk is about whether Terminator will even hold onto it's time slot as originally planned then I'd say the odds of a third season aren't something I'd put any money on.

Something that struck me as being really relevant to both these shows even before having it kind of pointed out in the linked story above is that broadcast probably isn't where either of them belong. 75% of 18-49's who were watching TV on Friday night weren't watching any of the broadcast networks. By Saturday night, albeit a holiday which always makes for screwy numbers, the figure was 90% of 18-49s using television weren't watching broadcast.

It's pretty obvious what the target demo is watching: cable, either basic, tiered, or pay. So why the hell don't shows like this go there where they can be relatively successful instead of being the next failed network show? I'm sure cost of productions plays a big role, some things are just too expensive for cable's more modest revenue but it still seems to me that it's probably better at least for the production companies & the actors to have a cable hit than a network flop. But I've never really gotten a sense that very many of the shows lobby for a cable slot instead of sealing their own fate from the get go.

There's really nowhere to go except the Sci-Fi channel and they've slashed their budget. When Stargate Atlantis is too expensive for you, then you have issues. Not only that, but then it's replaced with a couple more reality shows- it's clear there's much more emphasis on controlling cost.

Unless another competing scifi channel started up or someone wanted to change their format to be more scifi friendly (say, Spike wanted sci-fi Saturday or TNT decided to go with sci-fi Tuesdays or something), there's nowhere to go.

Unfortunately, sci-fi is locked in the eternal struggle of production being expensive but audience being somewhat niche. The only shows that have drawn "large" network audiences in the last 15 years have been mostly rooted in real-life with sci-fi elements (X-Files, Lost, generic psychic stuff like Medium).

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

I could see something like Dollhouse fitting, albeit oddly, into the "characters welcome" theme on USA as one example. Or convince Spike that it fits into their guy programming. Hell, it probably would be a hit for G4 (relative to what they pull anyway).

Granted, the cost of the talent behind & in front of the camera is almost certainly more than a G4 could bear but at some point I do kind of join the networks in feeling as though some things just aren't worth the cost to produce them.

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, I was going to say USA. I think I heard that Whedon has a contract with FOX or something. That could be the reason, but these shows definitely fit more into the cable world. I can see USA or, even, A&E snapping it up.

[Alan T]

I just don't get what FOX is trying to do with Dollhouse. The promos for it and advertisements for it have been nothing short of horrible. I actually did not see a single thing in the advertisements or promos that made me even want to watch it.

I did watch the first episode and it was fine I thought. Will take a few more episodes to decide it I want to continue watching it or if I get bored with it (like I did with the Terminator series). FOX doesn't seem like they ever wanted this show to succeed though, if you compare how they handle a new season of 24 (Another show that i have not yet started to watch so don't know if it is good or not) vs this. Plus they pretty much doomed it by placing it on Friday night to start.

I am suprised that they got the numbers they did for it honestly.

[MikeVic]

I want Terminator to stay on the air, and want Dollhouse to have its chance to succeed.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Plus they pretty much doomed it by placing it on Friday night to start.

Quite frankly, where were they going to put it?

I mean they had to move House, MD to Monday's at 8 because of American Idol. Having a 10:00 PM news limits FOX's options.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Quite frankly, where were they going to put it?

I mean they had to move House, MD to Monday's at 8 because of American Idol. Having a 10:00 PM news limits FOX's options.

Well Friday seems to be the place shows go to die, not where you put new shows to display is all. What does FOX show on Thursdays? If no room on Thursday, then I personally think they should have just waited until AI was over as that eats up nearly half of their slots from Mon - Thur anyways each week.

[ISiddiqui]

Thursdays have Bones at 8 and Hell's Kitchen (which is fairly decent ratings wise) at 9.

If they waited for AI to be over, that's the summer... which is really where broadcast shows go to die.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Thursdays have Bones at 8 and Hell's Kitchen (which is fairly decent ratings wise) at 9.

If they waited for AI to be over, that's the summer... which is really where broadcast shows go to die.

Well, there are several shows currently on Fox that I don't watch that this could have replaced. Such ashame they don't ask me before they do their programming

[ISiddiqui]

You may wish to ask everyone else in the country too then .

I was just looking at Hell's Kitchen ratings, and I believe for last season, they finished in the Top 25.

Basically, Dollhouse would have been their lowest rated show from Monday through Thursday if they stuck it anywhere there.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

You may wish to ask everyone else in the country too then .

I was just looking at Hell's Kitchen ratings, and I believe for last season, they finished in the Top 25.

Basically, Dollhouse would have been their lowest rated show from Monday through Thursday if they stuck it anywhere there.

I think personally I rate Doll House and Lie to Me the same. Both are interesting concept shows that I am trying and think the start was ok. I don't know how long either can last. I bet Lie to Me has a better chance of surviving due to placement and advertisement though. I don't know if I care though since so far I like it better anyhow.

I love House and Prison Break as the two FOX Shows I can't miss. I know American Idol and 24 are huge too. Hell's Kitchen I can also understand gets good ratings.

Is Bones really that popular though? I know TNT carries reruns of it as well, but I don't think I have ever talked to anyone that was a huge Bones fan so it suprises me.

[ISiddiqui]

I'd bet Lie to Me has a better chance of surviving due to content . Crime mysteries with a cranky, super talented man, tend to get big ratings.

Bones has a 9.8 rating this season and has never had a season under 8.9 in the ratings, so while it isn't that popular, it tends to do well for itself.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Is Bones really that popular though? I know TNT carries reruns of it as well, but I don't think I have ever talked to anyone that was a huge Bones fan so it suprises me.

I am a huge Bones fan. A number of people I hang out with probably rate that as one of their top-5. Small sample size, but I believe it is fairly popular.