Security Deposit: Landlord side

[panerd]

So my wife and I just got done renting her house and are now involved in a security deposit dispute...

So their lease was up on Sept 30 but they had verbally agreed to renew for another year. On Sept 17 they notified us that they were not coming back for another year. Suffice to say this pissed us off.. So when we went into the house Oct 1 they had damaged the back light, their dog broke a screen door, and they were burning incense or something and the ceilings had black lines on all of them. My wife wanted to keep all of the deposit figuring notifying us on the 17th was half the deposit and the rest added up to $1000. I told her it was probably best to not do that or we would end up dealing with nonsense so we came up with this...

Late notice : $150
Light at Lowes: $75
Paint for ceiling: $27/can x 4 = $108
Broken screen door: $75.

So basically about $400 off their deposit.

Well now the guy is coming back saying he wants all his money back and is "suing" us. Well I tend to not get as worked up as my wife but was wondering what worst case scenerio was...

Specifically: Can they actually sue us for more than the $400, such as attorney fees? Is the late notice going to stick if they really get an attorney or even go small claims court? Are the broken light and door "normal wear and tear" like he claims? Can I counter sue and actually get more money since this guy wants to be an asshole or is the judge going to say I can't add charges? I look forward to going to court (which I am guessing he is just blowing smoke anyways) but am I going to regret this? Its not like we are in the wrong but don't want to end up losing more than $400.

[Marc Vaughan]

So long as your contract with him indicated what the deposit was for and you have detailed information showing what the money was kept back for (photos will help) then good luck to him in the UK at least he'd have no chance at anything and it'd go through the small claims court ... I presume the same would be true here pretty much as the amount involved is so puny that either side getting a lawyer involved would be stupid.

[digamma]

Was your lease in writing?

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

So long as your contract with him indicated what the deposit was for and you have detailed information showing what the money was kept back for (photos will help) then good luck to him in the UK at least he'd have no chance at anything and it'd go through the small claims court ... I presume the same would be true here pretty much as the amount involved is so puny that either side getting a lawyer involved would be stupid.

Yes I was thinking small claims as well and we do have pictures and details but my only worry was some friend or fly by night lawyer that does it for them and includes like $500 attorney fees or something on top of the disputed money. He is also a little weird... ex military, had a camera system on a $100,000 valued rental house, the ceilings that I worry about non-legal repurcusions.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by digamma

Was your lease in writing?

Yes a standard one off the internet. We kind of came up with the $150 late fee out of our ass but I would think we could have actually charged them more, the language of the lease says that both parties must give 30 days notice. Of course I am also a math teacher and not an attorney.

[Logan]

I think you're fine, and if anything, maybe the paint charges could fall under "normal wear and tear". I think in NYC discoloration is covered and the landlord technically is required to repaint between tenants, but I could be off on that.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Logan

I think you're fine, and if anything, maybe the paint charges could fall under "normal wear and tear". I think in NYC discoloration is covered and the landlord technically is required to repaint between tenants, but I could be off on that.

Yeah this was some serious soot that made solid black lines where all the ceiling joists were and black all over the vents and ceiling fans. At first we thought it was mold and then we smelled it it smelled really good so that is why we figure it was candles or incense. (Our friend thinks they smoked a lot of pot) I have never done that to my ceiling and thought that is outside of normal wear and tear but you may be right.

[BishopMVP]

I'll preface everything by saying I'm not a lawyer, and I've never been to Missouri. But I did read a few John Grisham novels!

Originally Posted by panerd

Specifically: Can they actually sue us for more than the $400, such as attorney fees?

I can't see any court tacking on lawyer fees in excess of the amount when they're the ones bringing the suit.

Is the late notice going to stick if they really get an attorney or even go small claims court?

If you have 30 days in writing, and they gave you 13, yes. If anything you probably could have charged them for a whole month.

Are the broken light and door "normal wear and tear" like he claims?

No. The black marks on the wall are up for debate - pictures help, probably also if you had some sort of no open flames clause in the contract.

Can I counter sue and actually get more money since this guy wants to be an asshole or is the judge going to say I can't add charges?

Doubt he will let you add charges once in court, but if you haven't given him back his portion of the security deposit or the itemized list of what you took out of his security deposit you could probably up the late fee to a whole months rent.

I really wouldn't worry about going to court in your shoes at all. Whether you want to is a whole different question, especially if you're worried about him retaliating against you outside of court.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by panerd

Yeah this was some serious soot that made solid black lines where all the ceiling joists were and black all over the vents and ceiling fans. At first we thought it was mold and then we smelled it it smelled really good so that is why we figure it was candles or incense. (Our friend thinks they smoked a lot of pot) I have never done that to my ceiling and thought that is outside of normal wear and tear but you may be right.

Not even sure if it's worth bringing up since I don't see how it helps you now, but where I'm from a security system on a $100k rental house would be a decent indication he was selling drugs. But maybe you just have a bad crime area or more anti-government people than we do.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Not even sure if it's worth bringing up since I don't see how it helps you now, but where I'm from a security system on a $100k rental house would be a decent indication he was selling drugs. But maybe you just have a bad crime area or more anti-government people than we do.

Yeah it was a little weird and his explanation was even sketchier (neighbor kids throwing a ball in the yard). He did have a really nice girlfriend though so I don't know I guess I figure they just couldn't afford to buy a house.

On the retaliation that you mention though... even though the keys were do not duplicate I worry that somehow he decides to take out $400 of damage on our currently vacant house. Wouldn't be hard to prove who would have a motive but still would be a thorn in our side we don't want.

EDIT: I'm the anti-government guy but don't have any cameras.

[miked]

I went to small claims court in Boston, so it's a caviat. As they are suing you, the burden is on them to prove they should get their money back. If you have evidence of the damage, and they were living there, then it seems open and close. People who are jerks tend to come off as jerks in court and it doesn't do them favors. In Boston, it wasn't an actual judge or courtroom. They called our case and a clerk took us to a small room and had the hearing there. They ruled on the spot. It costs money to file a small claims court case, so if they win they get that and that's it.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by panerd

Yes a standard one off the internet. We kind of came up with the $150 late fee out of our ass but I would think we could have actually charged them more, the language of the lease says that both parties must give 30 days notice. Of course I am also a math teacher and not an attorney.

So, if I were to just state the law, I'd say the typical default provision here under contract law is that the lease extends for a one month period and their notice is effective for termination at the end of the 13th month.

And if I were hypothetically posed with a similar situation I might respond to the threat with a bill for the full month's rent plus the amount of the security deposit you withheld and expect him to go away.

[Flasch186]

For like $150 you could probably talk to a Real estate attorney to look over the lease etc and give you some advice...

[SteveMax58]

I'm a landlord as well. I've been reasonably lucky to not have to deal with this kind of crap so far but here's my take.

Everything I've heard so far is dependent on the lease agreement. Everything from the amount of notice to vacate or renew (barring some state law), to having open flames (such as the incense/candle and associated damage), to the expected condition of the property once the tenant vacates.

My lease agreement states tenant will restore property to same condition as they received it to include entire house cleaning & even steamcleaning of carpets (yes, it says that...and yes, tenants do that though this may depend on the condition and pricepoint of the property). And they will provide written notice 45 days in advance of the expiration of the lease agreement of their intent to vacate or renew.

One item my lease agreement states (and I believe it is state law here), is that I have 15 days after the tenant vacates to inform them of a claim against their security deposit in writing. If you did not do that...better check on the lease and/or state law.

I think your claims seem pretty justified. Certainly the light is NOT wear & tear...its broke! (A dead light bulb is wear & tear) The rent thing is perfectly legit as well imho. If they vacated middle of the month of September, and lease ended on the last day of September, then half months rent is perfectly justified as they technically gave you half a month of notice (albeit because they are out). But if they called you on the 17th & still vacated at the normal lease expiration...then they provided no formal notice to you. I'm pretty leniant when it comes to the written formality but best believe they better live to their word or else they will be held to the legal formality if they backtrack like these people did. History could also come into play...been there a few years & new job...more leniency, etc. Either way...sounds like you charged them half (or less) of a months rent & thats being pretty nice imo.

As for the taking you to court part. Maybe he does...probably depends on how much money that is to this guy. If what you've written is also basically the story...I can't see this guy bothering. Especially if he's a pothead...too lazy and isnt about to get all "legal" about it nor show his face at a courthouse any more than necessary. And I agree with your friend...1st thing that comes to mind when I hear incense is "potheads".

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by digamma

So, if I were to just state the law, I'd say the typical default provision here under contract law is that the lease extends for a one month period and their notice is effective for termination at the end of the 13th month.

And if I were hypothetically posed with a similar situation I might respond to the threat with a bill for the full month's rent plus the amount of the security deposit you withheld and expect him to go away.

+1

If I wanted to counter a tenant threat in this situation...my lease agreement states that the lease continues on under these same terms on a month by month basis with either party able to terminate with written notice. Technically, if neither party has provided that notice...its a valid enough threat to make a psuedo-lawyer-tenant at least consider their position & most likely back off their threats.

Though I suspect (in my non-professional opinion mind you) that a judge in small claims court would state that the lease was terminated the moment he took back the property from the tenant (Oct 1 it sounds like).

[GrantDawg]

What did the lease say the penalty was for the late-notice? I would guess they actually owe you for a whole other month, and you are letting him off cheap. If he goes to court, he has next to no chance to actually win. I would guess that he actually never files, and is hoping to scare you into giving him all the money.

[Coffee Warlord]

If it's ANYTHING like Illinois.

At $400, it's going to small claims court if they really decide to persue this. You've got a contract on your side, you presented them a VERY generous itemized bill (I'da charged more), and you have photos of the damages. I doubt you have much to worry about.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

What did the lease say the penalty was for the late-notice? I would guess they actually owe you for a whole other month, and you are letting him off cheap. If he goes to court, he has next to no chance to actually win. I would guess that he actually never files, and is hoping to scare you into giving him all the money.

This the 'lawyer' attack seems to be thrown around an awful lot in my neck of the woods - but I've never actually seen anything go to court yet.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

If it's ANYTHING like Illinois.

At $400, it's going to small claims court if they really decide to persue this. You've got a contract on your side, you presented them a VERY generous itemized bill (I'da charged more), and you have photos of the damages. I doubt you have much to worry about.

I'm with CW.

I think you are being exceptionally generous with your damages. No labor costs to install a new light, paint a ceiling or install a screen door? I think they are getting off pretty easy.

[dzilla77]

Could you also counter-sue him for October rent, since notice wasn't provided? I doubt you would get it, but that way if he wants to pursue, he has some skin in the game.

[bbor]

I'm an agent...mind you i'm in Canada,but for a 1 year lease 60 days written notice must be given if a tenant is not going to renew their lease,other wise they are on the hook for 60 days worth of rent if they leave early.Month to month renters must give 30 days written notice.Bottom line is verbal notice means shit.

A broken light certainly is not "normal wear and tear".....and as far as the discoloration of your ceiling goes,i'm pretty certain your lease would say something to the effect that the property must be turned over to the landlord at the end of term in the same condition that it was given to the leaser "save normal wear and tear"....Having incense burns on your ceiling also would not be covered under "normal wear and tear'.

As far as late payments go....unless you have multiple notices that they have been late on payments(once again in writing) the court ( here at least) is pretty lenient with that. You have to have proof that it was a regular occurrence for the courts to grant you the charge.

[Butter]

I think you're fine, in fact generous in not keeping the entire amount considering short notice and broken light/door.

[panerd]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I was pretty confident we were in the right but I also figured that maybe I was looking at this from our perspective and not being impartial.

As far as charging more or trying to collect October rent I had told my wife that we are spending about $200-300 on supplies and our time should be worth another $200 or so but to keep all of the deposit would almost certainly lead us to more headaches and so I said just to take out the $400 or so and the guy should be happy. Little did I know this would even be disputed we should have just kept it all.

Also as I mentioned the fear of retaliation from this guy if I kept the $1000 with a broken window or paint on the house or something seemed to outweigh keeping the extra money. Though if he actually torched the place he would be doing us a favor as we would rather have a second vacation home at the lake or something instead of 20 miles from our house.

[RendeR]

Honestly you were being very kind. I had an incident like this with a tenant too. She destroyed a carpet with spillage. She ranted and raved a bit over the phone but nothing ever came of it.

As long as you itemize everything clearly and give them a copy of it all you are pretty much covered.

In your case I'd have charged the full months rent, 200 for the door and 50 for the light. Not sure what the monthly rent was.

As a tenant I don't think I ever really understood what I was actually responsible for with my deposits. I know I have been screwed over on at least one. As a landlord I understand it a WHOLE lot better now.

Hope you never hear from this guy again!

[chadritt]

Its sad but as a tenant I always just assume Im losing my entire deposit. Ive heard through the grapevine that even putting nails in the walls to hang framed posters at my current place is enough to lose it. Ive had two places where I got almost the entire thing back and I was beyond shocked.

[panerd]

As far as getting more than the deposit back I am pretty sure that would involve me going to court and wouldn't be worth the time spent especially if it resulted in nothing. As far as withholding the entire deposit... after reading the resposnes here I am kind of kicking myself. My wife was saying she was just going to keep it and I figured $400 would be a good compromise that would end the story and we would never hear from him again. I guess even had I withheld $50 he would have complained. Haven't heard anything since Tuesday so maybe Marc is correct and it's just an empty threat that he figures we would pay him to make it go away.

[Surtt]

You might want to check into the state laws.
This is the MN statutes.

At the end of the tenancy, a landlord must return a tenant’s security deposit plus simple, non-compounded interest, (141) or give the tenant a written explanation as to why the deposit (or any part of the deposit) will not be returned. The landlord must do this within 21 days after the day the tenancy ends, provided that the tenant has given the landlord a forwarding address

If the landlord does not return the deposit or return an explanation in the time allowed, the landlord must pay the tenant a penalty equal to the amount withheld and interest and also pay the tenant the amount of the deposit and interest wrongfully withheld.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Surtt

You might want to check into the state laws.
This is the MN statutes.

Wow that's insane. I realize most states probably have laws that are tilted towards the landlord but I have never seen anything like that in the other direction. Wonder if Jessie Ventura had anything to do with it?

My internet research and conversations with friends who rent seems to show Missouri as a 30-day window for returning security deposits. Of course that could be completely wrong but there seems to be enough information to show that is the case. They do recommend sending a certified letter so my wife and I were kind of lucky that this guy sent us an e-mail "I'm going to sue" rant on October 27. Otherwise I guess they could have claimed we never sent them anything.

[CU Tiger]

We have a few rentals.
Something I started a couple years back has helped tremendously.
When folks move in I give them a packet of info (call this number for repairs etc.) In that packet I establish the value I place on repairs.
A few more common ones
Light Bulbs: $25/bulb left burned out. (Sure the bulbs dont cost $25, but I hire all repairs and electricians bill at $65/hour plus a $50 trip charge)
Carpet Cleaning: $200/room
Painting $200/room
Trash removal $100/room.

Not only does it establish a legal value for determining deposit return, it has done a tremendous job on improving the condition I receive the house back in.