Student Loan Debt bailout

[Young Drachma]

With all of the talk of bailouts, I've been wondering for the past few months now, whether a student loan debtor bailout of say, lenders within a certain range, aimed at helping those who have had to grapple with increasing college costs, etc., and as a result, aren't able to contribute to the economy at large, as their grandparents and parents might have been able to do.

Philosophically, I don't support the idea. But if we're going to bailout major corporations, banks and the such, so they can continue to loan people money and let them stay in debt, then I don't see how this wouldn't be something they'd consider.

People under 35-40 are paying social security to ensure the old can live okay, they're being saddled with huge deficits that the folks making them will be too old and dead to care once it comes time to pay the piper on them and so...student loan debtor bailout, capped per borrower at a certain amount would surely be less than the $700bn paid to the banks and would result in people free to do what their generation does best.

Spend.

Discuss.

Again, I don't support it. But I wanted to create a wider dialogue on the subject, as it's been clanging around in my head for a while. I know off hand why it'd be infeasible and why it'd never happen. But so is most of the shit that's happened in the past decade that we've seen occur.

I'm wondering how it could happen and what it would look like and the benefits of it would be, since it's just not been mentioned short of a few random blog posts I've looked at a few months ago.

[JPhillips]

I'd be much happier if that money went to making school more affordable in the first place, thus reducing the need for student loans. I have students that are leaving undergrad with 40-70k in student loans and no prospects of paying that off for decades.

[Noop]

40-70k? Jebus Thrist, I just graduated (well one class left but I walked) and I owe a grand total of 213.43 and that's most due to the fact I didn't know that the money I got for my books when I was short was a loan. I thought it was apart of the school's scholarship thingy.

I expect to have some debt when I go to law school but I have been working and save for two years now. I don't anticipate leaving law school in excess of 20k; maybe less... Come to think of it I know a couple of friends who are in debt. They took the money when they really didn't need it and as a result face a mountain of debt.

[SportsDino]

I don't think a student loan bailout would help all that much. The idea of just throwing money around to everyone because we made the dumb mistake of throwing money at a bunch of banks is a logical mess.

Ultimately all sorts of massive debt forgiveness will come in the form of inflation... it just happens to wipe out savings and investments at the same time. Its the road we are heading down if the bailout train keeps chugging.

[miked]

I went to a state school (go RU) and left with 3k of insanely low interest gov't loans, that I deferred for a few years while I was in grad school. When I got my postdoc job they sent me a letter saying they were going to withdraw $50 a month until like 2011 or something. Whatever.

But the problem isn't the loans per se, it's that Universities are charging 40k a year. Not to mention the overhead they get from the government on grants...

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I'd be much happier if that money went to making school more affordable in the first place, thus reducing the need for student loans. I have students that are leaving undergrad with 40-70k in student loans and no prospects of paying that off for decades.

If they just got rid of federal loan programs all together, schools would have to lower their tuitions, merge, raise more money or close.

I favor this.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by miked

But the problem isn't the loans per se, it's that Universities are charging 40k a year. Not to mention the overhead they get from the government on grants...

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Noop

40-70k? Jebus Thrist, I just graduated (well one class left but I walked) and I owe a grand total of 213.43 and that's most due to the fact I didn't know that the money I got for my books when I was short was a loan. I thought it was apart of the school's scholarship thingy.

I expect to have some debt when I go to law school but I have been working and save for two years now. I don't anticipate leaving law school in excess of 20k; maybe less... Come to think of it I know a couple of friends who are in debt. They took the money when they really didn't need it and as a result face a mountain of debt.

Maybe law school is different than medical school, but I would have considered it a miracle to get away with under 20k in loans in 1 year, much less 4 years. I went to my home state medical school and still had to take out well over 100k in loans. I didn't have any loans in undergraduate though, so at least I don't have over 250k in loans like most of my graduating class had.

[Fidatelo]

I hate the idea of bailing out student loans. My wife has a friend that has lived like a Rockerfeller for years on student loans. Now that she has finally hit the real world and has to pay them back, she is facing the reality that maybe racking up 80k+ in debt while wearing $200 blue jeans was a bad idea. This is called a life lesson, and I'll be damned if my tax dollars are going to keep her from learning it.

[bob]

I am very much against this - you make choices in life, and you live with them.

I REALLY wanted to go to Notre Dame. I had a full ride at Georgia Tech due to Hope Scholarship and smaller scholarship. I went to Tech, got a great education, and graduated debt free. You don't have to go to a $25K / year school to get a good education.

I'd be a more likely to support medical school loan forgiveness if it came with required service hours in clinics.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

As someone without a mortgage, and with little debt remaining from school, I could really get behind a new "Give Me Money Because I Did Shit Right" bill.

[bob]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

As someone without a mortgage, and with little debt remaining from school, I could really get behind a new "Give Me Money Because I Did Shit Right" bill.

Agreed. I made the financially right choice for college, busted my ass to get a good job, bought a reasonable house, made the right choices. I have no problem with a safety net for helping people out when bad luck happens (layoffs, medical issues). But that's different than "I don't think I should have to pay the student loans that I agreed to."

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

As someone without a mortgage, and with little debt remaining from school, I could really get behind a new "Give Me Money Because I Did Shit Right" bill.

Now thats a truly revolutionary idea - reward people for doing the right thing so it encourages others to do so also ......

Nahhh, can't see any politician buying that one

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Maybe law school is different than medical school, but I would have considered it a miracle to get away with under 20k in loans in 1 year, much less 4 years. I went to my home state medical school and still had to take out well over 100k in loans. I didn't have any loans in undergraduate though, so at least I don't have over 250k in loans like most of my graduating class had.

I have saved a lot and have generous family who have been assisting in saving as well. If I get into Georgetown then I expect my loans to be pretty high however in case I don't and I go to Florida State or North Carolina the cost of living in those areas aren't as high as Georgetown.

Perhaps I am being a little fool-hearted into believing that I can walk away from law school relatively debt free I have eight months before I find out. I have a meeting with the advisors in a few weeks so I will know by then.

[Young Drachma]

I'll bump this thread again when Barry decides to push something like this. lol

[lungs]

I certainly didn't do it right. I never worked in college, besides a few weekends here and there and summer breaks. I racked up plenty of debt (20k). But the interest rates are so low that it is the least of my debt priorities. Minimum payment each month. I'll pay down my higher interest car loan first.

A student loan bailout would not be some tremendous weight off my shoulders. Maybe it is for others, but they should've thought about that before they racked up so much debt studying a field that either doesn't pay that kind of return or has become so saturated it's impossible to find a job.

[RedKingGold]

I'd be thrilled if the government paid my school debt.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by lungs

Maybe it is for others, but they should've thought about that before they racked up so much debt studying a field that either doesn't pay that kind of return or has become so saturated it's impossible to find a job.

QFT.

[CU Tiger]

The law school debt thing scared me, and life happened which kinda negated my plans.
But while I can see justifying 200k in debt to be a doc (hell bad and lazy ones make 200k/year) there are a whole bunch of lawyers making <50k.

I just couldnt pull the trigger. SC Law was going to run me 50k/year, with a no work your first 2 year rule.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I just couldnt pull the trigger. SC Law was going to run me 50k/year, with a no work your first 2 year rule.

That's news to me. I'm pretty sure the ABA mandates that law students cannot work in a law-related profession for only the first semester of school.

However, is that a state law? That might be why.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Noop

I have saved a lot and have generous family who have been assisting in saving as well. If I get into Georgetown then I expect my loans to be pretty high however in case I don't and I go to Florida State or North Carolina the cost of living in those areas aren't as high as Georgetown.

Perhaps I am being a little fool-hearted into believing that I can walk away from law school relatively debt free I have eight months before I find out. I have a meeting with the advisors in a few weeks so I will know by then.

Ahh, that makes a huge difference. My family is/was generous but broke. I payed for everything during those 4 years with the exception of the small amount of money my wife made the last 2 years of medical school. I had to take loans for basic things such as rent and food, and we lived frugally during those years. Anyway, I've got no complaints as my debt is very manageable.

[digamma]

To this point we haven't seen student loans default rates rise to the point to where a bailout is close to necessary. Additionally, student loan obligors often have greater access to forbearance or renegotiation options than a mortgage lender.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Noop

I expect to have some debt when I go to law school but I have been working and save for two years now. I don't anticipate leaving law school in excess of 20k; maybe less... Come to think of it I know a couple of friends who are in debt. They took the money when they really didn't need it and as a result face a mountain of debt.

20k for law school would be tremendous (I think the average is around $70k now, with MANY in six figures that are fighting over low paying, entry level jobs.)

I would support enhanced student loan forgiveness programs for those who work in low-paying public service jobs. The Federal Government, States, and many universities already have such programs. I received $15k from my school against my loans for three years in public service. I don't think this would particularly help the recession though.

But hand-outs? No way, it's once again insulting and unfair to those who manage their financial lives with sanity. Those who take on insane debt loads deserve to have the credit rating impacted - maybe that'll keep them from getting mortgages they can't afford.

How about tax credits for those with excellent credit?

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

That's news to me. I'm pretty sure the ABA mandates that law students cannot work in a law-related profession for only the first semester of school.

However, is that a state law? That might be why.

Honestly Im not sure. Its been the better part of a decade, and I am not positive I ever knew the reason, just that I got put on point in my interview when I mentioned working. And for what its worth it was not restricted just to law fields, it was you can not have a job at McDonald's.

I was acccepted and researched it a bit then, and as I recall there really was no check in place except that you had to sign a student pledge, which presumably if you could later be proven to have broken would not sit well with the ethics and code of conduct provisions.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

If they just got rid of federal loan programs all together, schools would have to lower their tuitions, merge, raise more money or close.

I favor this.

How do you think they'll lower tuition? Most colleges are not profitible. They'd have to dramatically lower expenses. That means reducing the money they put into their facilities and programs. Skimping on salaries for professors.

I don't think the solution is to make our school's shittier. China and India are kicking our asses enough as it is in the education department these days.

[RainMaker]

I'm against just about all the bailouts with the exception of the educational field. We should be doing everything we can to lessen the burden on people who want to further their education and enhance their minds. This is not only essential to our future economy, but our national security.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

How do you think they'll lower tuition? Most colleges are not profitible. They'd have to dramatically lower expenses. That means reducing the money they put into their facilities and programs. Skimping on salaries for professors.

I don't think the solution is to make our school's shittier. China and India are kicking our asses enough as it is in the education department these days.

I understand all of this. You think those countries you cited are spending money on swanky dorms and athletic facilities for semi-pro "college teams?" Uh, no.

Lots of schools would need to cut costs the same way businesses do, not being subsidized by public largess or stupid 18-year olds who wouldn't be allowed to borrow that sum of money for anything else.

Making schools start to merge or find other solutions wouldn't erode our education at the higher ed level, it'd make it better.

Well that and deemphasizing how many kids go to college right after HS because they feel they "have" to. Vocational education needs to find its way back.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

I understand all of this. You think those countries you cited are spending money on swanky dorms and athletic facilities for semi-pro "college teams?" Uh, no.

Lots of schools would need to cut costs the same way businesses do, not being subsidized by public largess or stupid 18-year olds who wouldn't be allowed to borrow that sum of money for anything else.

Making schools start to merge or find other solutions wouldn't erode our education at the higher ed level, it'd make it better.

Well that and deemphasizing how many kids go to college right after HS because they feel they "have" to. Vocational education needs to find its way back.

You're talking about a handful of schools in this country. For every Big Ten University, there are 5-10 small schools struggling to get by with sub-par facilities.

I went to Winona State, a nice state school in Minnesota. We had 50+ year old dormitories that I'd hardly call swanky. The school was cute, had it's nice parts, but it wasn't the Taj Mahal. The college was constantly fighting the state to fix their boilers so that the school could be heated. Take a walk around some state schools in your state and you'll notice they aren't as nice as you think.

And shouldn't de-emphasizing how many kids go to college be a bad thing? I'd personally prefer that we drilled it in the heads of kids that they need to get an education. Even drilled in their heads that they need to become skilled in some area. All I know is China and other countries are churning out engineers, doctors, scientists, and more at an astounding clip to what we are doing. If you don't think that will catch up to this country, I don't know what to say.

Making it harder to get an education, telling people they don't need to go, and making schools struggle even more to get by seems to be going the wrong direction.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You're talking about a handful of schools in this country. For every Big Ten University, there are 5-10 small schools struggling to get by with sub-par facilities.

I went to Winona State, a nice state school in Minnesota. We had 50+ year old dormitories that I'd hardly call swanky. The school was cute, had it's nice parts, but it wasn't the Taj Mahal. The college was constantly fighting the state to fix their boilers so that the school could be heated. Take a walk around some state schools in your state and you'll notice they aren't as nice as you think.

And shouldn't de-emphasizing how many kids go to college be a bad thing? I'd personally prefer that we drilled it in the heads of kids that they need to get an education. Even drilled in their heads that they need to become skilled in some area. All I know is China and other countries are churning out engineers, doctors, scientists, and more at an astounding clip to what we are doing. If you don't think that will catch up to this country, I don't know what to say.

Making it harder to get an education, telling people they don't need to go, and making schools struggle even more to get by seems to be going the wrong direction.

I'm referring largely to private, secular institutions with less than 5,000 students. There are a glut of them out there, but most folks don't think about that if they went to Olde State U-Branch Campus.

These schools are dragging down the quality that could be better invested elsewhere.

That said, I don't think sending more kids to college is the answer if we can't fix the gaping hole that is K-12 education in this country.

[Young Drachma]

From the Chronicle of Higher Education almanac:

The proportion of college students enrolled at public institutions (Fall 2005)

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

I'm referring largely to private, secular institutions with less than 5,000 students. There are a glut of them out there, but most folks don't think about that if they went to Olde State U-Branch Campus.

These schools are dragging down the quality that could be better invested elsewhere.

That said, I don't think sending more kids to college is the answer if we can't fix the gaping hole that is K-12 education in this country.

Why would you punish those schools? They are the ones that take the burden off the taxpayer. State schools are much cheaper because the taxpayer is subsidizing a large portion of their tuition.

I would rather help a student at a private institution get cheaper loans than to simply hand the tuition to a student at a state school.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Why would you punish those schools? They are the ones that take the burden off the taxpayer. State schools are much cheaper because the taxpayer is subsidizing a large portion of their tuition.

I would rather help a student at a private institution get cheaper loans than to simply hand the tuition to a student at a state school.

There are 921 private institutions that give degrees from Bachelors to Docotorate that have enrollments of less than 10,000 students.

By the same token, only 301 public institutions meet that same criteria.

The federal student aid system props up a lot of inefficient schools that would be better off closing, merging with other institutions or finding market solutions to finding a relevant place in the marketplace, because right now, most have deviated a great deal from their missions and however well-intentioned, most have devolved themselves into an arms race that most are ill equipped to compete in.

I realize that my bias is having spent close to a decade in higher education, so my understanding is coming from a completely different place than someone who just went to school or even someone who say, just teaches at an institution.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

There are 921 private institutions that give degrees from Bachelors to Docotorate that have enrollments of less than 10,000 students.

By the same token, only 301 public institutions meet that same criteria.

The federal student aid system props up a lot of inefficient schools that would be better off closing, merging with other institutions or finding market solutions to finding a relevant place in the marketplace, because right now, most have deviated a great deal from their missions and however well-intentioned, most have devolved themselves into an arms race that most are ill equipped to compete in.

I realize that my bias is having spent close to a decade in higher education, so my understanding is coming from a completely different place than someone who just went to school or even someone who say, just teaches at an institution.

So you're saying that those who choose to attend private schools should receive no assistance toward their school loans. But they should have to pay in taxes that go toward public schools that they have chosen not to attend?

And I have no doubt that there are schools that are poorly run on the private level. But I wouldn't stereotype every school because of some bad apples. Private schools are the choice of many based on religious or career ambitions. There are some students who would prefer to study on a small campus with a more personal feel than a school with 30,000 enrolled.

[ISiddiqui]

The Federal Government, States, and many universities already have such programs.

Not "The Federal Government" as a whole. Each agency has to fund those student loan forgiveness programs. I know that mine has not, regardless of people continuing to petition them (and the fact they want to hire law students).

[Jon]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Maybe law school is different than medical school, but I would have considered it a miracle to get away with under 20k in loans in 1 year, much less 4 years. I went to my home state medical school and still had to take out well over 100k in loans. I didn't have any loans in undergraduate though, so at least I don't have over 250k in loans like most of my graduating class had.

It really depends where you go to law school. If you go to some instate schools, you may be able to get away with under 20K loans in one year. But, I don't know any lawyer who used loans who had less than 20K loans in one year. I have about $100K in student loans from law school.

(I posted my response before seeing the other responses).

I am not a fan of a student loan bailout per se, but I think it would be good if they increased the cap on the student loan interest deduction. I think they should also continue to improve loan forgiveness for entering certain types of law. For the longest time, the only way you could get loan forgiveness from the government is if you got a certain type of loan and went into law enforcement (prosecutors only counted). There has been movement to increase loan forgiveness but it hasn't gone far enough. It could be tied to the national service program, possibly.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

The federal student aid system props up a lot of inefficient schools that would be better off closing, merging with other institutions or finding market solutions to finding a relevant place in the marketplace

I realize mileage with vary with geography but in Georgia you just described most of the state/public university system. Outside of UGA (in some fields) and GT (in other fields), the small private colleges blow the rest out of the water. And we compound the problem with the Hope scholarship.

Well that and deemphasizing how many kids go to college right after HS because they feel they "have" to. Vocational education needs to find its way back.

We seem to be in general agreement on this point, and while I've always agreed in general I'm swung more & more in that direction every day. On the one hand we hear how America needs to get back to being a producer of goods, not just a nation of consumers. And on the other hand, we try to maintain the fallacy that every person is college material or even that having them be so is somehow desirable.

[bob]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Outside of UGA (in some fields) and GT (in other fields), the small private colleges blow the rest out of the water.

No love for Georgia State?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by bob

No love for Georgia State?

Went there. By & large one of the biggest jokes I can ever imagine, with a couple of programs being the exceptions rather than the rule.

[Fidatelo]

I agree with DC and JimGA. Put some real learning back into K-12, get rid of the "no child left behind" bullshit, and focus on vocations/trades. What good does it do society to have people in school until they are 25 when they come out and take a job that they could have been specifically trained for in 6-12 months? I know far too many kids that went to university (myself included) simply because that's what they thought they had to do. Luckily I got wise and dropped out after a year, then got into a community college which pumped me out in 18 months. I keep moving up in my field and haven't once been passed over for anything because I don't have a degree.

Get these kids out in the real world earlier, producing value to society and not racking up massive debts. If they want to expand their general base of knowledge let them do it on their own time like people used to do.

[miked]

What's a small private college...Emory? Oglethorpe? Southern Poly? Emory is huge and other 2 are, well, probably in line with GSU. GT offers the best education money can buy. They are in the bottom 10th percentile for in-state tuition (probably way to low, but the polis love to brag) and they have a tuition freeze for freshman (the tuition you pay when you enter is the same when you leave). I'd say the hope is doing pretty well there, and part of UGA.

[bob]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Went there. By & large one of the biggest jokes I can ever imagine, with a couple of programs being the exceptions rather than the rule.

Not to threadjack, but any thoughts on their MBA program (if you know anything about it). I was considering it b/c of the flexibility.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by miked

What's a small private college...Emory? Oglethorpe? Southern Poly? Emory is huge and other 2 are, well, probably in line with GSU. GT offers the best education money can buy. They are in the bottom 10th percentile for in-state tuition (probably way to low, but the polis love to brag) and they have a tuition freeze for freshman (the tuition you pay when you enter is the same when you leave). I'd say the hope is doing pretty well there, and part of UGA.

Emory is around 12k last figure I saw, which puts it close to the 10k threshold being discussed earlier. I'd put Oglethorpe well above GSU and if it isn't, then there's a shitload of money being wasted by a number of parents. Southern didn't even cross my mind to be honest. Mercer comes to mind as one you didn't mention.

I took no issue with the quality of the education at GT, even gave UGA credit for some of their programs. But the directionals, the former 2 year schools that bumped up, etc., and most definitely the majority of Georgia State ...

[Dutch]

Instead of a bailout, how about an equal trade. The American people will give you $10k for every year of military service you give us. You could even work on your masters degree while serving your country.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Instead of a bailout, how about an equal trade. The American people will give you $10k for every year of military service you give us. You could even work on your masters degree while serving your country.

I think that student loan repayment for military service and other types of public service1 (teaching in inner city schools, etc.) is a great idea.

1 Which I know begs the question of what would constitute "public service" for such a program. Without a lot of oversight, it could become a joke as rich kids caddy at their Dad's country club and have it classified as "civic beautification" or something like that. Not to mention the fact that any agency who accepts such employess will probably have to jump through all of the hoops that any agency that accepts federal money has to jump through and . . . well, any sort of expansion comes with problems is what I am saying. The military is, at least, clearly public service.

[Mustang]

Half of college is just horseshit crap that they force upon you to make more money. I'm all for math, science, english and expanding your knowledge base, but in my 4 years I took 1 class that I wanted to and the rest was shoved down my throat. I would have loved to take more programming classes that would have had some relevance to my major, but unfortunately I had to take "Pre-18th Century Polish Love Poems and the Impact on the French Revolution"

College is one big legal scam.

[SportsDino]

I wouldn't mind an increase in tax deductions for student loans. If you are paying back the debt you should be able to deduct it to a greater degree than you can now. Heck, you go to college to get a high paying job, and once you have a high paying job you don't qualify to deduct the student loan interest! Kinda stupid really.

Besides, its one of the tax deductions that are kind of hard to game. Its not like you are going to go out and get thousands of dollars in student loans just so you can deduct a fraction of the interest on your tax return.

So that is an idea that rewards people that are doing the right thing (paying off their debts), and is positive encouragement to the economy.

-----

As for army service, maybe instead of billions in defense contracts we should actually pay our soldiers a decent wage. No need for a handout or some weird tax thing... just increase the pay directly. Until that happens, none of these politicians really support our troops, all they are good at is getting them killed for bullshit reasons.

[Klinglerware]

Not sure why a student loan bailout would be necessary--interest rates tend to be pretty low. Repayment options also tend to be pretty flexible. I carry a pretty hefty student loan debt load. I've always managed the payments--and they do get easier to make with each passing year.

One thing to keep in mind is that, for better or worse, the cachet of an "elite" school may make taking out student loans worth it. Studies have shown that people with an Ivy-type undergrad degree aren't necessarily more productive than state-school graduates, but they do tend to start at higher salaries--the effect of this higher starting salary compounds over time. So in that case, there is a good chance that you will get your money back.

I've also heard the advice that it generally isn't worth it to pay for business school if you can't get into a "top-10" or "top-20" school or whatever--the starting salary bump of a grad from a top-tier MBA program can be huge compared to an average MBA grad. In that case too, it may be worth it to take the loans out if you get into Wharton vs paying out of pocket for a more affordable school. Of course, if the other school choice is free, then that changes the calculus too.

[SportsDino]

I agree a lot of college is idiotic waste. Luckilly I qualified for some cool program at my university which was designed to give you leeway in your course selection (working with an advisor). I completely ditched my advisor for three years (they actually got pissed with me), developed my own program with massive computer science, economics, and business, and was ready to graduate in three years with mostly junior/senior level classes. I did meet with an advisor for the fourth year so they could sign off on my taking 50% graduate work.

Anyway, the point is college should be refactored into a service that is actually worth the money you spend on it (loans, scholarship, or otherwise). And they should stop requiring it for any job that requires menial amounts of thought (you are lucky to get a secretary job it seems without a degree with all the unemployment out there). The U.S. is drowning in waste and inefficiency (as well as corruption and incompetence at the top)... we need to get smart or get passed by other countries.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Half of college is just horseshit crap that they force upon you to make more money. I'm all for math, science, english and expanding your knowledge base, but in my 4 years I took 1 class that I wanted to and the rest was shoved down my throat. I would have loved to take more programming classes that would have had some relevance to my major, but unfortunately I had to take "Pre-18th Century Polish Love Poems and the Impact on the French Revolution"

College is one big legal scam.

Suddenly I believe that. You could stand to take more math classes, for instance.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I think that student loan repayment for military service and other types of public service1 (teaching in inner city schools, etc.) is a great idea.

1 Which I know begs the question of what would constitute "public service" for such a program. Without a lot of oversight, it could become a joke as rich kids caddy at their Dad's country club and have it classified as "civic beautification" or something like that. Not to mention the fact that any agency who accepts such employess will probably have to jump through all of the hoops that any agency that accepts federal money has to jump through and . . . well, any sort of expansion comes with problems is what I am saying. The military is, at least, clearly public service.

It would be nice if they were legit, sure. Public service could be anything that is generally construed as a "sacrifice". And by sacrifice, meaning working for the govt for cheap.