Pilots overshoot destination by 150 miles

[fantom1979]

Didn't see this listed already. I guess it could have been much worse, they could have missed it by an hour or more, instead of just 14 minutes.

Two Northwest Airlines pilots who overshot their destination by 150 miles before turning back should have had numerous warnings as they approached and passed Minneapolis: cockpit displays, controllers trying repeatedly to reach, the city lights twinkling below.
Yet the pilots didn't discover their mistake until a flight attendant in the cabin contacted them by intercom, said a source close to the investigation who wasn't authorized to talk publicly and spoke on condition of anonymity. By that time, the plane was over Eau Claire, Wis., and the pilots had been out of communication with air traffic controllers for over an hour........

Pilots should have had warning of airport approach - Yahoo! News

[M GO BLUE!!!]

They were talking about Soupy Sales!

[weegeebored]

The "official" story is that the pilots were arguing and lost track of things. Nice. But the real story is that they probably fell asleep. Even nicer.

I am glad that I don't fly.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

ping PilotMan

Yeah, I think someone forgot to wake up from their nap.

[miked]

Apparently they lost contact for over an hour, I wonder what they were arguing about so that they never even descended until they were 150 miles past the airport

[spleen1015]

They were probably having a threesome with a stewardess.

That sounds better anyway.

[JHandley]

Bah. I was gonna title my thread on this: "Are we there yet?"

They don't load up a whole lot more fuel than what's required to get to their destination. They're damn lucky they woke up before getting too far away from Minneapolis.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

They were probably having a threesome with a stewardess.

That sounds better anyway.

One of two theories...#1 involves one thumb in the ass...#2 involves two getting stuck.

[Abe Sargent]

If they are overshooting their plane, I wonder what else they are....

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by weegeebored

The "official" story is that the pilots were arguing and lost track of things. Nice. But the real story is that they probably fell asleep. Even nicer.

I am glad that I don't fly.

"As of Thursday, NTSB investigators had not yet examined the plane's cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder, which were being sent to Washington for analysis."

So...isn't this "heated argument" deal a really dumb lie? Unless the airline decides it's in their best interests to cover up the fact that both pilots were sleeping, I can't understand why they would do it.

[weegeebored]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

...I can't understand why they would do it.

Idiocy begets more idiocy?

[PilotMan]

Well it's certainly embarrassing for sure. The CVR won't lie. It's funny how they say Northwest Airlines, when it's really Delta. So this along with the 767 incident earlier this week in Atlanta are both events that you just shake your head at. It's really too bad. I am sure that all the pilots involved are going to lose their jobs, and don't worry, the company won't try and cover anything up. They can't it's out of their hands, and with the NTSB.

And yes, it's my guess that they were very likely sleeping. They didn't mean to of course. It's not like they sat up there and planned it.

With all the fatigue questions out there it just adds more fuel to the discussion.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Chuck Norris could have landed the plane, had sex with all the stewardesses & decapitated several persons on the wrong side of an airline safety procedure argument, all while taking a pleasant nap.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

It's funny how they say Northwest Airlines, when it's really Delta.

Aren't they really the same airline now, just with the original names?

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

Chuck Norris could have landed the plane, had sex with all the stewardesses & decapitated several persons on the wrong side of an airline safety procedure argument, all while taking a pleasant nap.

Chuck Norris doesn't travel. He just pulls the location towards him.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

Steven Seagal could have landed the plane, had sex with all the stewardesses & decapitated several persons on the wrong side of an airline safety procedure argument, all while taking a pleasant nap.

Fixed

[PilotMan]

The NW brand will be gone by the end of the year. It will all be Delta, it's just a matter of FCC approval and getting all the planes painted.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

It's funny how they say Northwest Airlines, when it's really Delta. So this along with the 767 incident earlier this week in Atlanta are both events that you just shake your head at.

My wife is on a Delta flight right now

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Lathum

My wife is on a Delta flight right now

At least they won't be painting her plane while she is flying, since they are keeping the Delta name and colors.

[BrianD]

I had a couple of friends that were on this flight. They were not pleased about the delay, but hadn't heard anything other than the heated argument line.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Lathum

My wife is on a Delta flight right now

Well, at least you know what to blame it on if her plan arrival is running late.

[cartman]

FlightAware > Northwest Airlines Inc. #188 > 21-Oct-2009 > KSAN-KMSP

If you zoom in on the map, you can see the exact "Oh Shit!" moment where the pilots realized where they were.

[stevew]

LOFL

Oh shiiiii....

[PilotMan]

Remember that thing that you did when you were little and you got caught and you knew that there was no way out, and out and you were really going to pay for it?

That must have been on long, quiet flight back to MSP. It's the moment where you see your entire career and life, past and future flash before your eyes.

[PilotMan]

So the pilots are on the record as saying that there were not sleeping. So I ask you what's worse?

A pair of pilots who accidentally fell asleep? Or losing track of what you are getting paid to do, to the extent that you fly for at least an hour and totally forget what you are doing, where you are, what you need to do next?

My opinion is that the latter is far worse, and much more damaging from a professional point of view.

[Eaglesfan27]

I'm with you Pilotman. I think it would be much better to have fallen asleep than to being arguing so intensely that you didn't hear any of the crew, controllers, or realize on your own that you were way past your destination.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

They were probably having a threesome with a stewardess.

my money is on this with the latest comments

[Lathum]

And know they are going to get caught in a lie, which compounds the original problem.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

So I ask you what's worse?

A pair of pilots who accidentally fell asleep? Or losing track of what you are getting paid to do, to the extent that you fly for at least an hour and totally forget what you are doing, where you are, what you need to do next?

The latter's worse. I assume there are automated systems in place to BEEP VERY LOUDLY should intervention actually be needed.

I'm also surprised that no passengers said anything as they passed the Twin Cities. Of course 150 miles isn't a lot, and could be taken as just settling into a holding pattern (from a passenger's point of view).

[PilotMan]

No big surprise here....

Or losing track of what you are getting paid to do, to the extent that you fly for at least an hour and totally forget what you are doing, where you are, what you need to do next?

Annnnnnd, I think I am right here too.

Now my biggest fear is that this one off, outlier event turns into some kind of referendum on airline pilots. Clearly, this isn't a widespread problem, we don't have planes overflying airports all the time. Let's not get the government involved to reinvent the whole process.

These are guys who have been doing their jobs for a combined 36 years and 31,000 flight hours (over 3.5 years of their lives combined), and neither one had any incidents, accidents or violations over that time. Here in this one event, their careers are over. No malpractice, no second option. Done.

That is aviation ladies and gentlemen. A lifetime of clean living and one event ends it all. Now, it was by their own hand, but how many careers out there is this even a remote possibility? I can't think of any offhand.

These guys just made all our jobs that much harder. It sucks. Do you have any idea how many times in the last few days I have had people say "you guys got enough sleep?" or "you don't have laptops do you?" or "We aren't going to overfly the airport today are we?"

I am so sick of being insulted in my place of work, and people think it's funny. People complain when I go to the front of security, they complain when I ride in the back and bring my bags on the plane (when I am working, I am allowed to bring everything on.)

Alright, I'm off my soapbox now. Shit like this just sucks.

[SnowMan]

Regionals up here have it so good. Our passengers actually appreciate us or they don't get home, unless they take a boat or a dogsled. We're all less than 60 seats, no TSA to bother us, no crazy backups at LAX to fight with. Just some silly weather now and then, but that's about it.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Now my biggest fear is that this one off, outlier event turns into some kind of referendum on airline pilots. Clearly, this isn't a widespread problem, we don't have planes overflying airports all the time. Let's not get the government involved to reinvent the whole process.

I don't think you have to worry about that. Planes rarely crash and you almost never hear of incidents on the news like this. I actually think the harsh actions from the FAA is a good thing. It shows the public that these actions are unacceptable. If the FAA had fumbled around on the issue and we heard all sorts of excuses for months that made it look like a cover-up, then you'd lose some confidence.

[Logan]

PilotMan, just out of curiosity, when that story came out about the pilot who either flew or showed up drunk (don't remember the exact details), did passengers make those kinds of sarcastic comments asking if you were sober?

I'm going to guess not, and people didn't make those jokes because lives were, or could have been, in danger, and this situation is more of a "wow those pilots were stupid, haha" kind of thing.

[molson]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I am so sick of being insulted in my place of work, and people think it's funny. People complain when I go to the front of security, they complain when I ride in the back and bring my bags on the plane (when I am working, I am allowed to bring everything on.)

Those people should be banned from flying.

Most of us know what a tough job it is. Douchebags are just better at drawing attention to themselves.

[PilotMan]

Actually I was just talking about this yesterday. Yes, it has happened that way. They ask or make jokes, however, we have a secret weapon, so you will remember to never do that again (unless you are dead serious) .

If someone does make a joke or question about that exact thing, then the captain has the option to suspend the flight and send the pilots out for alcohol testing. That's going to delay the flight a couple hours at least. The point being that the integrity of the crew has been brought in to question and if order to protect ourselves we have to take that seriously, and react accordingly. And of course, will make a PA to make sure everyone else knows why the flight is going to be leaving late.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by Logan

PilotMan, just out of curiosity, when that story came out about the pilot who either flew or showed up drunk (don't remember the exact details), did passengers make those kinds of sarcastic comments asking if you were sober?

I was on a flight once from Chicago to Milwaukee, waiting and they couldn't find the pilots. The people at the gate where 'joking' that they should go look in the bars for them. I hate flying in the first place and I didn't find it humorous and asked for them to provide alternate means to Milwaukee due to their 'jokes'. Which they did.

[molson]

Do we know what these pilots were doing on their laptops that was so darm distracting?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by molson

Do we know what these pilots were doing on their laptops that was so darm distracting?

Pron

or WoW

[flere-imsaho]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/27/us...=pilots&st=cse

The pilots told the National Transportation Safety Board that they missed their destination because they had taken out their personal laptops in the cockpit, a violation of airline policy, so the first officer, Richard I. Cole, could tutor the captain, Timothy B. Cheney, in a new scheduling system put in place by Delta Air Lines, which acquired Northwest last fall.

[Passacaglia]

All these mergers are putting innocent lives at risk!!!!!!!

[molson]

It must be the most riveting sheduling system EVER!

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Actually I was just talking about this yesterday. Yes, it has happened that way. They ask or make jokes, however, we have a secret weapon, so you will remember to never do that again (unless you are dead serious) .

If someone does make a joke or question about that exact thing, then the captain has the option to suspend the flight and send the pilots out for alcohol testing. That's going to delay the flight a couple hours at least. The point being that the integrity of the crew has been brought in to question and if order to protect ourselves we have to take that seriously, and react accordingly. And of course, will make a PA to make sure everyone else knows why the flight is going to be leaving late.

Nothing like abusing your power because you can't take a joke.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Actually I was just talking about this yesterday. Yes, it has happened that way. They ask or make jokes, however, we have a secret weapon, so you will remember to never do that again (unless you are dead serious) .

If someone does make a joke or question about that exact thing, then the captain has the option to suspend the flight and send the pilots out for alcohol testing. That's going to delay the flight a couple hours at least. The point being that the integrity of the crew has been brought in to question and if order to protect ourselves we have to take that seriously, and react accordingly. And of course, will make a PA to make sure everyone else knows why the flight is going to be leaving late.

I'm sure that would go over well. Probably not the best move for job security given the state of economy and the economic situations of a number of airlines. Your call of course, I'm just saying it doesn't seem like something worth the rather obvious risk of making the big picture worse instead of better (and believe me, the media could have a field day with anyone who tried that purely trying to make a point or be a wiseass, and the follow up from paying customers wouldn't be nearly as pleasant as some jokes).

I was initially sympathetic to the situation you described but to be honest, how many professions don't have some jokes associated with them? Lawyers? Doctors? Car salesmen? Insurance salesmen? Pastors? Teachers? Traveling salesmen? Hell, the hottest thing going for media buyers the past couple of weeks has been a whack-a-mole style online game where you select a weapon and blow the heads off of media sales reps whose speech balloons feature all their favorite buzz words and catch phrases. And you're sensitive about some jokes? I'd say you ought to be happy that Adult Swim hasn't created an online distract-the-pilot-in-the-cockpit game ... yet.

Damn sorry but it sounds to me like you've got a little sand in a sensitive spot.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm sure that would go over well. Probably not the best move for job security given the state of economy and the economic situations of a number of airlines. Your call of course, I'm just saying it doesn't seem like something worth the rather obvious risk of making the big picture worse instead of better (and believe me, the media could have a field day with anyone who tried that purely trying to make a point or be a wiseass, and the follow up from paying customers wouldn't be nearly as pleasant as some jokes).

I was initially sympathetic to the situation you described but to be honest, how many professions don't have some jokes associated with them? Lawyers? Doctors? Car salesmen? Insurance salesmen? Pastors? Teachers? Traveling salesmen? Hell, the hottest thing going for media buyers the past couple of weeks has been a whack-a-mole style online game where you select a weapon and blow the heads off of media sales reps whose speech balloons feature all their favorite buzz words and catch phrases. And you're sensitive about some jokes? I'd say you ought to be happy that Adult Swim hasn't created an online distract-the-pilot-in-the-cockpit game ... yet.

Damn sorry but it sounds to me like you've got a little sand in a sensitive spot.

Seriously. It's not like anyone handed you a job application.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Chubby

Nothing like abusing your power because you can't take a joke.

Actually no, there is no humor in this industry at all. None. There are little protections in place if said person decides to follow through and actually make a complaint.

In fact our company policy dictates that if pilots are even suspected we have to. Now, when is it humor or not? That's a judgment call but certainly not one that I am willing to put my career on the line for.

It's more about following the letter of the law, that provides the most protection for my ability to feed my kids.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm sure that would go over well. Probably not the best move for job security given the state of economy and the economic situations of a number of airlines. Your call of course, I'm just saying it doesn't seem like something worth the rather obvious risk of making the big picture worse instead of better (and believe me, the media could have a field day with anyone who tried that purely trying to make a point or be a wiseass, and the follow up from paying customers wouldn't be nearly as pleasant as some jokes).

I was initially sympathetic to the situation you described but to be honest, how many professions don't have some jokes associated with them? Lawyers? Doctors? Car salesmen? Insurance salesmen? Pastors? Teachers? Traveling salesmen? Hell, the hottest thing going for media buyers the past couple of weeks has been a whack-a-mole style online game where you select a weapon and blow the heads off of media sales reps whose speech balloons feature all their favorite buzz words and catch phrases. And you're sensitive about some jokes? I'd say you ought to be happy that Adult Swim hasn't created an online distract-the-pilot-in-the-cockpit game ... yet.

Damn sorry but it sounds to me like you've got a little sand in a sensitive spot.

I hear what you are saying and joking about pilots outside work, as well as on tv and whatnot is fine. In fact, I think that MS Flight sim should put laptops in just for humorous fun, but that is one thing.

It's an entirely different story to joke when your life is in my hands. That's like walking up to your accountant and saying "embezzled much money lately?" Or Accusing him of cheating the IRS (in jest) after doing your taxes. What about asking your doctor just before surgury, "you won't fuck up will you?"

There is a time and place for everything. That is neither the time nor the place.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

That's a judgment call but certainly not one that I am willing to put my career on the line for. It's more about following the letter of the law, that provides the most protection for my ability to feed my kids.

Like I said, that's your call. But I'd wager your job would end up at greater risk for pulling out that "weapon" as you referred to it than it would be for disregarding some jokes (even if it's a hundred jokes a day).

Let's be real here: the airline industry isn't one that's held in the highest regard by the public to start with, and in this economy the number of people who are going to be making any flights is lower than it's been in a long time, meaning there's even fewer people who care if you get your panties in a wad or not.

Any pilot (not you specifically nor even that you would do this) who power trips because they don't have a sense of humor or even if they can be perceived as doing so is asking to become a very specific target for something a lot less pleasant than some weak jokes. I can guarantee that the media would have a field day with a scenario like that & I'm extremely confident that the public would happily go along with them. Further, the power of the pilot's unions ain't what it used to be, so I'd at least be hesitant to expect them to expend much of their capital defending someone that a portion of the membership would ultimately perceive as making things worse instead of better.

But hey, it's your call, I'm just killing time before a conference call with some observations from the bleachers.

[PilotMan]

Gonna have to disagree with you Jon. Federal regulations would back the pilot as well as company policy and the union. It might suck, but I am sure that it has happened somewhere.

As far as union's go, even in this case, ALPA has to try and get the pilots back their jobs. May may not always be successful, and may not even want to, but by law, they are obligated to.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Like I said, that's your call. But I'd wager your job would end up at greater risk for pulling out that "weapon" as you referred to it than it would be for disregarding some jokes (even if it's a hundred jokes a day).

Let's be real here: the airline industry isn't one that's held in the highest regard by the public to start with, and in this economy the number of people who are going to be making any flights is lower than it's been in a long time, meaning there's even fewer people who care if you get your panties in a wad or not.

Any pilot (not you specifically nor even that you would do this) who power trips because they don't have a sense of humor or even if they can be perceived as doing so is asking to become a very specific target for something a lot less pleasant than some weak jokes. I can guarantee that the media would have a field day with a scenario like that & I'm extremely confident that the public would happily go along with them. Further, the power of the pilot's unions ain't what it used to be, so I'd at least be hesitant to expect them to expend much of their capital defending someone that a portion of the membership would ultimately perceive as making things worse instead of better.

But hey, it's your call, I'm just killing time before a conference call with some observations from the bleachers.

edit to add because you were replying while I was replying

It's an entirely different story to joke when your life is in my hands. That's like walking up to your accountant and saying "embezzled much money lately?" Or Accusing him of cheating the IRS (in jest) after doing your taxes. What about asking your doctor just before surgury, "you won't fuck up will you?"

I can almost guarantee that you don't mean that like it sounds. I would certainly hope that there's still enough professionalism left among pilots that their performance would not be impacted by anybody's jokes no matter how lame. After all, you've got your life in your hands too (unless there's parachutes up there I'm not familiar with), so that's not exactly any advantage for you. And FTR, I've made a similar joke to a surgeon who replied with a witty comeback of his own, so that probably doesn't apply here either. Come to think of it, I've cracked along similar lines with more than one tax accountant to, each one dealt with it no problem

As much as I advised against taking a punitive approach earlier, I MUCH more strongly & seriously suggest not EVER using that same line about "lives in hands" you used here in front of any passengers, at least not in that context. To be frank, it sounds like a threat to me & I'm sitting in the safety of my basement, not about to get on a plane with you.

[Logan]

Just wondering, are there extensive background checks performed on pilots?