Top 5 Sports Franchises

[Marmel]

I came up with this topic from some conversation in the Pujols/Soriano thread.

Put away your team loyalty for a minute and tell us what the top 5 franchises in sports are. It is tough to narrow it down to 5, but I will start with these, in no particular order:

New York Yankees - More Titles than any other professional team, Ruth, Gehrig, Monument Park, Bronx Magic in October, the list is endless.

St. Louis Cardinals - There is nothing like baseball in St. Louis. the fans completely embrace the team, and a day at Busch Stadium is perfect.

LA Lakers - Hard for me to like this team, but they go hand in hand with the NBA, and their success speaks for itself.

San Francisco 49ers - 20 years of being the favorites to win it all, having 2 incredible QBs, the best WR ever, and all those rings make them the best in football.

Montreal Canadians - Their reputation has taken a hit in recent years, but historically, they are right there with the above 4 teams.


Close, but didn't make the cut for me:

Dallas Cowboys (America's team? Not.)
Boston Red Sox, if they could have won a few World Series Titles.
Green Bay Packers, Lombardi.
Detroit Red Wings
Boston Celtics

[MrIllini]

Yankees
Cardinals
Lakers
Packers
either Canadiens or Maple Leafs

[condors]

Real Madrid 1 more title in 4 less years of existance than the yankees

[JeeberD]

Soccer doesn't count, silly...

[MizzouRah]

Yankees
Cardinals
Steelers
Cowboys
Redwings (not a Canadian team, but I've heard going to a game here is unreal)

Todd

[Franklinnoble]

Originally posted by Marmel

San Francisco 49ers - 20 years of being the favorites to win it all, having 2 incredible QBs, the best WR ever, and all those rings make them the best in football.

Jerry Rice plays for Oakland, and Joe Montana was last seen in Kansas City.

[Franklinnoble]

... unless, of course, you're referring to Jeff Garcia, Tim Rattay, and Terrel Owens.

[Frozenrope]

Yankees
Lakers
Canadians
49ers
Celtics

Close behind:
Red Wings
Cowboys

Cardinals are one of the more over-rated franchises....but that could be a biased opinion.

[oykib]

I don't think that Real stacks up against the Yanks. The best soccer is not necessarily being played in Spain every year. But there is really no question that the team that wins the World Series is the best team in the world ( or at least won the best league ).

[scooper]

Originally posted by MrIllini
Yankees
Cardinals
Lakers
Packers
either Canadiens or Maple Leafs

I think the Packers when way too long between good teams to be considered one of the top 5. They're good, but not top 5.

[condors]

oykib-i am not a fan of real madrid but i think they could win whatever league they play in if you want to debate it send me a pm so we don't threadjack

[Anrhydeddu]

Yankees (just awesome to think about their dominance in nearly every decade since the 1920s)
Cardinals (the Gem of MLB)
Cowboys (40 years of doing good)
Celtics
Canadiens

Runner-ups:
Raiders
Lakers

I didn't put the 49ers up there since their success is only in the past 23 years. Also, you can count the number of really good Packers teams on two hands.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally posted by MrIllini
either Canadiens or Maple Leafs

The Habs have more Cups and haven't had anywhere near the low periods the Leafs went through in the 80s. On the other hand, the Leafs have arguably the best fan support of any pro team, period. Tough call...

[bosshogg23]

Yanks
Lakers
Canadiens
Cowboys
49ers

Raiders and Celtics were close.

[vtbub]

Yanks
Lakers
Celts
Habs
Pack

[KWhit]

Originally posted by JeeberD
Soccer doesn't count, silly...

Neither should hockey.

*ducks*

[JeeberD]

Yanks (but I hate 'em)
Lakers (but I hate 'em)
Niners (but I hate 'em)
Red Sox
and of course, my beloved Cowboys...

[SplitPersonality1]

Brewers
Bengals
Clippers
Expos

and...oh crap...wrong thread

[AKnightofNi]

yankees
cowboys
canadiens
celtics
notre dame (you didn't say pro, just franchises, and since they have their own tv deal, they are just like a franchise) (but I hate them)

[oykib]

Originally posted by condors
oykib-i am not a fan of real madrid but i think they could win whatever league they play in if you want to debate it send me a pm so we don't threadjack

Why? I love to threadjack. I think that in recent years they have been the best team in the world. But, not knowing soccer history very well, have they been the head and shoulders best team every time that they have won Spain. UEFA and Champions League tournaments haven't been around forever. So, i don't think there is a decisive answer.

We know that he Yanks were better than everybody when they won.

[revrew]

I think the Yanks are indisputable (y'know, I respelled that word 4 times and I'm still not sure that's right). They've been on everyone's list thus far, and the evidence is beyond argument.

So the question is, who are the next 4?

I don't think the Cards enjoy as much nationwide honor as sports historians give them. Every time I hear Card talk it goes back to before I was born, or at least before I cared. (Ozzie Smith being the exception.) Perhaps the Yanks have just set the bar so high, no other baseball team will make this list. Or perhaps it's just the demise of "America's Pasttime"

In Football, I have to give the Packers the nod. I know they haven't been great throughout their history, but added to Favre, Lombardi, and the ghosts is the incredibly unusual arrangement with the fans owning the team. Even if you dispute how accurate that statement is, the fans believe they own the team, and the spirit of Packer football among the faithful is more worthy of honor than perhaps any other franchise's fan base in any of the big 4 sports. (And no, I'm not one of them. I'm a Bronco and Bear fan).

Also worthy of discussion in football: Cowboys, 49ers, Bears, maybe Raiders (but I say Al Davis just shoots that argument in the foot) ... think that's about it.

The NBA has to offer 2 teams or none at all. The Lakers and Celtics are the most storied franchises in that league. Championships, dynasties, and stars throughout their histories. I've heard Lakers, but didn't the Celtics win 8 straight? The Bulls and 76ers might whine about it, but MJ and Dr. J aside, it's about Boston and L.A. in the NBA.

Hockey? How do you pick from among the original teams? Montreal, Detroit probably lead the class, though Boston might try.

What defines a "great franchise"? I suggest it's the team whose long-standing history is most synonymous with the spirit of the game. They've had to be good, but when you think of the "golden era" of sports, that team had better be there. And when you think about today, that team better still have a solid reputation, an honorable place (this shoots the Bulls' and Cowboys' chances, for example). And lastly, the faithful fans have to Love their squad.

I vote for:
Yankees
Packers
Lakers
Celtics
Red Wings

[cthomer5000]

It really becomes an exercise in weighing current performance (last 10 years) vs. historical performance. It's easiest when a team has been highly successful during both (yankees).


Baseball
Yankees, NO contest. And I absolutely detest them and all of MLB, so I'm not biased.

Football
I think it's got to be the Cowboys.

You can make an argument for:
San Francisco
New York Giants
Pittsburgh Steelers
Cleveland Browns
Green Bay Packers


Hockey
I'm a bit out of my realm now, but I think this has to be Montreal. You could make an argument for a few other of the original 8.

Basketball
Lakers vs. Celtics here. you pick.

[Franklinnoble]

The UC-Santa Cruz Fighting Banana Slugs

[Maple Leafs]

Originally posted by revrew
Hockey? How do you pick from among the original teams? Montreal, Detroit probably lead the class, though Boston might try.

That's it, I'm coming down there.

[revrew]

Sorry, Maple. But I've never seen an ESPN special on the great old days of Leaf hockey. I haven't watched Toronto bring home a cup. I don't see Leafs peppering the record books much. I'm a casual hockey fan (at most), and the Leafs just don't make a very big splash, either now nor then.

"Quick, honey, name 10 hockey teams."

"Okay, um, Red Wings, Blackhawks, Canadiens...Boston has a team, don't they? Who did Gretsky play for? The Avalanche have been good. Couple of teams in New York, right? Shoot, I don't know."

"Okay, take your time. Make a list of 20 and hand it to me tomorrow."

Ya know what? She can give me 20, but Toronto ain't on the list.

[Anrhydeddu]

What defines a "great franchise"? I suggest it's the team whose long-standing history is most synonymous with the spirit of the game. They've had to be good, but when you think of the "golden era" of sports, that team had better be there. And when you think about today, that team better still have a solid reputation, an honorable place (this shoots the Bulls' and Cowboys' chances, for example). And lastly, the faithful fans have to Love their squad.

I disagree to some extent, rev. A "great" franchise can clearly be measured in on-field success, that is the only thing that is not subjective. Reputation, honor and faithfulness mean very little in terms of winning and losing. You go on and on about the Packers but your clearly talking about the "Packers Mystique" - they hype that they are better and more special than other franchises, esp. the ones the ones that have won more times than they have in the past 30 years. They have won more titles than any other teams but I would prefer to pick a team that won historically and won recently and some in between.

[Alan T]

1. Yankees - the premiere franchise for american sports... ever
2. Cowboys - Pretty close to the football version of the Yankees
3. Celtics - Pretty much the basketball version
4. Canadians
5. Lakers - A close second to Celtics in Basketball gets them into the list.


Its pretty funny though, I hate all of those teams. Thats one of the reasons I know they are the best picks If a team is truly great, most people will either hate them or love them, few will be indifferent to them.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally posted by revrew
Sorry, Maple. But I've never seen an ESPN special on the great old days of Leaf hockey. I haven't watched Toronto bring home a cup. I don't see Leafs peppering the record books much. I'm a casual hockey fan (at most), and the Leafs just don't make a very big splash, either now nor then.

(Head explodes.)

Fair enough. But the Leafs do have the second most Cups (behind the Habs). None since 1967, that's true, but by that reasoning the Cubs and Red Sox aren't among baseball's elite franchises either.

And if you're going to go by ESPN (or SI) coverage, then yes, I will accept that no Canadian teams will even make the top 30.

[Alan T]

Originally posted by Maple Leafs

Fair enough. But the Leafs do have the second most Cups (behind the Habs). None since 1967, that's true, but by that reasoning the Cubs and Red Sox aren't among baseball's elite franchises either.

I will agree with that reasoning. In each sport you have at least one dominant team who has won alot of championships, and at least some in the last 25 years. The Leafs and Red Sox both would be perhaps top 10, but not able to compete with the top 5.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally posted by Alan T
I will agree with that reasoning. In each sport you have at least one dominant team who has won alot of championships, and at least some in the last 25 years. The Leafs and Red Sox both would be perhaps top 10, but not able to compete with the top 5.

So to clarify, you would rank the New Jersey Devils above, say, the Chicago Blackhawks or Boston Bruins?

[Alan T]

Originally posted by Maple Leafs
So to clarify, you would rank the New Jersey Devils above, say, the Chicago Blackhawks or Boston Bruins?

Sorry.. to Clarify, I would have picked a team who had all time greatness, including the recent past over a team who had all time greatness but not done as much recently. To compare the Canadians and Leafs, I think the Canadians have a slight edge... but its tough in hockey for many teams to compete with the prestige of several of the original teams.

In baseball likewise, the Yankees and Red Sox both won championships.. up till 1918, the Red Sox had won more than New York had. We all know what happened since though. Clearly the edge would go to the Yanks...

I would never say a team like the Bucs who won last year's superbowl would be in the top 10 of all time NFL teams, or the Angels who won the world series would be in the top 10 MLB teams, or such.. Detroit maybe a strong case in hockey, and in basketball the Lakers are really strong.

Hopefully that makes sense

[Marmel]

I think there is a little bit more to it than winning and losing, although that is the bulk. Having all-time great players on your team helps. Having a massive fan base helps as well. Certain singular events, if important enough, can propel your franchise upwards.

[revrew]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
A. A "great" franchise can clearly be measured in on-field success, that is the only thing that is not subjective...

B. Reputation, honor and faithfulness mean very little in terms of winning and losing. You go on and on about the Packers but your clearly talking about the "Packers Mystique" - they hype that they are better and more special than other franchises

C. ...but I would prefer to pick a team that won historically and won recently and some in between.

A. Ornry doodoo (that's how I pronounce it, anyways ), subjective is half the fun! Objectively, a mathematical formula could give us the best franchises. But after watching ESPN mag do their "best franchises" thing mathematically, I'm convinced that ain't the way to go. I prefer the subjectivity behind "greatest" or "top" or "best" rather than "winningest".

B. Regarding the Pack. Look, I hate the Packers. My extended fam are Packer fans, and I want to gag on their obnoxious superiority complex, too. But...owned by the fans? Isn't that the dream scenario? They are "better and more special than other franchises."

C. According to your criteria, I too would substitute, say, the Cowboys for the Pack. Or the 49ers.

Look, despite my brash talk, I don't mean to offend or harp on you. This is a fun discussion, and I'm just feelin' a bit feisty today. (Oh, and sorry about the ornry doodoo comment, I just couldn't help it after reading the pronounciation thread!)

[Vince]

As much as I dislike them, Duke basketball deserves to be somewhere up there. In terms of longevity, I'm not sure what they were like back in the day, but they've been ridiculously consistent the last decade or so.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally posted by revrew
Ornry doodoo (that's how I pronounce it, anyways ),


.....(Oh, and sorry about the ornry doodoo comment, I just couldn't help it after reading the pronounciation thread!)

Don't apologize for the comment, just put it over in the pronunciation thread where it belongs... that's good stuff, man.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally posted by Alan T
Hopefully that makes sense

No, it does. I just sense the argument was starting to go live this:

The Red Wings have won a lot of Stanley Cups, so they're one of the top two franchises!

(But the Leafs have more Cups.)

OK, but the Red Wings have more Cups in the last ten years.

(But then the Devils and Avs are "all-time" greats.)

OK, but... the Red Wings are American and are on ESPN a lot.

(You win!)

I don't dispute that the Habs are the most successful NHL franchise of all time, hands down, in terms of championships. I just find it strange to weight the "recent past" so heavily in a debate about "all-time" franchises. And remember, while the Leafs currently have a 36 year drought, the Red Wings drought was over 40 years until they won in '97.

[Anrhydeddu]

rev, I didn't think it was brash talk at all. There is something to be said about having a pro football team in Green Bay, Wisconsin but that is as far as I would throw that cheese.

[MrBug708]

Of course I'm biased, but how are the Celtics ont he same list as the Lakers. Granted, the Celtics are easily number 2, but historically? Lakers have won a title in every decade minues the 90's. They didnt have a down period like the Celtics though. ESPN even rated it the 3rd most highly coveted job


As for colleges, you hafta go with the greatest athletic program in UCLA. More NC's combined, tons of Olympic Medals, an NC about every year.

[Anrhydeddu]

Originally posted by MrBug708
Of course I'm biased, but how are the Celtics ont he same list as the Lakers. Granted, the Celtics are easily number 2, but historically? Lakers have won a title in every decade minues the 90's. They didnt have a down period like the Celtics though. ESPN even rated it the 3rd most highly coveted job

You're kidding, right? Number of championships: Celtics = 16, Lakers = 13. The Celtics won in every decade (from 1950s onwards, except the 1990s in which the Lakers did not win either. The 2000s are not over with yet.).

[Radii]

Originally posted by Vince
As much as I dislike them, Duke basketball deserves to be somewhere up there. In terms of longevity, I'm not sure what they were like back in the day, but they've been ridiculously consistent the last decade or so.

I think, in terms of over the past century, Duke is in the top 10 in college basketball. The top 3 would most likely be undisputed, UNC, Kansas, Kentucky, not necessarily in that order. UCLA stakes its amazing championship run claim but has nothing on these 3 in terms of consistant excellence over a long period of time. Indiana is probably ahead of Duke too on the list as well.

[SplitPersonality1]

My real list would be as follows (in no particular order):

The %$%$^#%^ Yankees - as a Red Sox fan, typing this was the single most difficult thing I have done in the past few years - sigh.

Green Bay Packers - the fans are simply amazing. People put their children on the waiting list for season tickets the momemnt they are born, even thought the attrition rate for tickets is somethimg like 15 per year. I believe the waiting stands at nearly 20,000. You do the math.

Lakers/Celtics - this one is a toss-up for me. I don't have much of an opinion of either team now, but I used to love the rivalry that these teams had back in the 80's. Both franchises have a great history and IMO deserve to be on this list.

I'll leave my 5th slot open since I do not know that much about the history of hockey. As a kid, I followed the North Stars, but I'm pretty sure they do not rank up there with the Canadiens, the Bruins or the Red Wings.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally posted by SplitPersonality1
... rank up there with the Canadiens, the Bruins or the Red Wings.

That's it, I'm going up to the clocktower...

[MrBug708]

Consistancy Ardy. How many losing seasons have the Celtics had in the past 50 years? Like I said, Celtics are far ahead of whoever you want at number 3, but the Lakers are THE franchise for NBA

Besides, everyone here hates the NBA right now

[sterlingice]

Originally posted by Vince
As much as I dislike them, Duke basketball deserves to be somewhere up there. In terms of longevity, I'm not sure what they were like back in the day, but they've been ridiculously consistent the last decade or so.

Uh, no. The history of Duke basketball can be tracked back the start of The Rat's coaching career and no further. They had long stretches of time out of the entire tourney and a lot of NIT years.

If you want to take college basketball, there are three names: Kentucky, UCLA, and Kansas.
EDIT: and North Carolina (I knew I left one out)

It's like calling Miami (who had 8 total bowl appearances prior to 1980), a traditional football power. Sure, they had some success but not a national caliber level program for many years (ala Notre Dame or Nebraska or Oklahoma)

SI

[SplitPersonality1]

Originally posted by Maple Leafs
That's it, I'm going up to the clocktower...

Or the Maple Leafs.

[Alan T]

Originally posted by Maple Leafs
That's it, I'm going up to the clocktower...

How about the Minnesota Wild? They have to be an all time great right? ???

[MrBug708]

Dola

I think, in terms of over the past century, Duke is in the top 10 in college basketball. The top 3 would most likely be undisputed, UNC, Kansas, Kentucky, not necessarily in that order. UCLA stakes its amazing championship run claim but has nothing on these 3 in terms of consistant excellence over a long period of time. Indiana is probably ahead of Duke too on the list as well.

UCLA isn't near the Top 15 in terms of football, but is probably Top 5 for BB and near the bottom for baseball

However, taking about franchises, UCLA A.D. is probably the most prestigious job in the nation due to the fact that all of UCLA's NC's game from the 40's on and they've won a ridiculous total of about 60ish under now retired A.D. Peter Dalis

[condors]

regarding real madrid they have won the league 28 times and are in postion to win it a 29th time

they have conquered europe 9 times the only thing you may compare that to is winning the internation race of champions 9 times (where they take drivers from different leagues and put them in a iroc's and let them have at it)

they have been around for 99 years that is more than 1 championship every 4 years (not being 2nd place winning the whole thing)

they have won the champions league 3 times in the last decade and may do it this year as well

look at their starpower not even the yankees can match them their raul figo ronaldo zindane carlos etc These guys have won world footballer of the year, year after year. It would be like having 5 marios out on the ice or 8 bonds there is no player that they want they don't get

I don't think winning the world series is as big a deal as winning the champions league there are hundreds of teams that try to compete but only 1 wins

[Alan T]

Originally posted by MrBug708
Consistancy Ardy. How many losing seasons have the Celtics had in the past 50 years? Like I said, Celtics are far ahead of whoever you want at number 3, but the Lakers are THE franchise for NBA

Besides, everyone here hates the NBA right now

Losing seasons: Celtics - 15, Lakers 11.
Championships: Celtics - 16, Lakers 14


If you take only the past 50 years.:

Losing Seasons: Celtics - 11 , Lakers 11
Championships: Celtics - 16, lakers 10



If you take the past 15 years, the Lakers probably have the clear edge. I dont see though all time how one could easily put the Lakers over the Celtics. I put both Lakers and Celtics in my top 5 all time franchises for all sports, but the reason I would rate the Celtics higher is primarily growing up we despised the Celtics more than the Lakers. Bad reason I know. As impartial to both teams though, I think its pretty darn close to a tie. Maybe not after Shaq and Kobe get through the next few years though.

[Alan T]

Edited: Damn double posting garbage... bah