Turning Liabilites into assets by suing debt collectors

[Airhog]

An article about a guy that sues the debt collectors attempting to collect on him for breaking the law when attempting to collect the debt.

http://www.dallasobserver.com/conten...ersion/1653972

[DaddyTorgo]

Or this asshole could you know...pay his debts and be a responsible consumer instead of gaming the system and remaining in debt.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Debtors, either because they feel morally obligated or because they don't know their options, get backed into a corner by their creditors and believe they have to repay their debts, he says. Not so with Cunningham. "I don't have to do anything but stay black and die," he says, a small, smug smile on his lips.

This converges nicely with the recent "bleeding heart" thread.

[dubb93]

I don't feel sorry for either of them to be honest.

I guess I might be more sympathetic to the collectors if I didn't have to threaten debt collectors that call my house all the time asking for someone who obviously gave them a bogus number. I understand that people are going to say that you have the wrong number if they don't want to pay you, but how hard is it to run a quick check of the phone number and realize the name you have and the name on the phone number don't match.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by dubb93

I don't feel sorry for either of them to be honest.

I guess I might be more sympathetic to the collectors if I didn't have to threaten debt collectors that call my house all the time asking for someone who obviously gave them a bogus number. I understand that people are going to say that you have the wrong number if they don't want to pay you, but how hard is it to run a quick check of the phone number and realize the name you have and the name on the phone number don't match.

DOLA:

Although I guess that maybe I could sue these assholes for calling me to collect on a debt I don't owe?

[miked]

On one hand, this guy sounds like an asshole deadbeat. But on the other hand, good for him. Debt collection is a loosely-regulated business in most states and most collectors go above and beyond the law. My mom had a guy calling her house every hour for a debt she didn't owe. She sent them (and the company that sold her "debt") canceled checks showing that she paid, and proof that the account was in good standing. Turns out this guy just had accounts and numbers mixed up. End of story, right? No, he called her work, her bosses, etc, demanding that they convince her to pay, even though he acknowledged the debt was unlikely hers.

Luckily she had a good friend who is a lawyer who helped end it (by threatening to sue), but he told her they've gotten payments from people that owed no money just by behavior like this. So if this asshole baits these people into violating the law, good for him, maybe the debt collectors should train their people better on what they are actually allowed to do.

[JPhillips]

We've been getting regular automated calls for "Deborah" from the first week we had a phone. Even returning calls and getting the rep to agree we weren't Deborah hasn't stopped the calls. Hard for me to feel sorry for the debt collection industry.

[DaddyTorgo]

i don't necessarily feel bad for the debt collection agencies because they do resort to a lot of shameful tactics and shit.

i guess i just don't feel good for this guy because he's an actual deadbeat (and a decent sized one at that).

if he was just somebody who the debt collectors were calling by mistake and harassing i'd be 100% behind what he was doing. but the fact that he's doing it so that he can avoid having to pay debts that he legally owes makes him pretty scummy IMO.

[dacman]

I have little sympathy for the debt collectors. I lived a two year waking nightmare including continual threatening letters, phone calls, and even 2 lawsuits because when I moved to a new town, the phone company in their infinite wisdom assigned me the phone number of a bankrupt property management company that hadn't paid their bills .

It didn't matter how many times I told them they had the wrong person (technically they had the right phone number, but nothing else), they continued nearly ceaselessly. Eventually they matched up the phone number to my new address (the address of the defunct business was completely different), and the letters and eventually the lawsuits weren't far behind. It wasn't until I countersued that they realized their mistake the issue eventually got resolved.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by dacman

I have little sympathy for the debt collectors. I lived a two year waking nightmare including continual threatening letters, phone calls, and even 2 lawsuits because when I moved to a new town, the phone company in their infinite wisdom assigned me the phone number of a bankrupt property management company that hadn't paid their bills . I didn't matter how many times I told them they had the wrong person (technically they had the right phone number, but nothing else), they continued nearly ceaselessly. Eventually they matched up the phone number to my address, and the letters and eventually the lawsuits weren't far behind. It wasn't until I countersued that they realized their mistake the issue eventually got resolved.

kudos to you. that's the kind of story i like!

this guy is still a sleazeball though.

[JonInMiddleGA]

As others have already pointed out, the debt collection industry isn't one that I can gin up much sympathy for.

[sabotai]

"Americans as a whole owe some $2.5 trillion in consumer debt, according to the Federal Reserve, a figure that doesn't include home mortgages."

Wow....

EDIT: 300 mil people, so that's only $8,333 per person. But only $8000 in consumer debt (per person) is still a lot of money if that also doesn't include things like student loans.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by sabotai

EDIT: 300 mil people, so that's only $8,333 per person. But only $8000 in consumer debt (per person) is still a lot of money if that also doesn't include things like student loans.

Given the size of the figure I can't imagine it includes student loans.

[sabotai]

Right. According to wikipedia, "consumer debt" is credit card debt, payday loans and other forms of lending to consumers. So no mortgage or long term loans.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by sabotai

"Americans as a whole owe some $2.5 trillion in consumer debt, according to the Federal Reserve, a figure that doesn't include home mortgages."

Wow....

EDIT: 300 mil people, so that's only $8,333 per person. But only $8000 in consumer debt (per person) is still a lot of money if that also doesn't include things like student loans.

Let's work that number out differently too, see what happens with credit cards (cause I was curious)

Working with numbers from this website, which includes enough citations to make me think it's fairly accurate.

-- $972.73 billion in credit card debt in 2008
-- 78% of US households have 1 or more credit cards, so about 91.1m hh

An average of $10,677.61 in cc debt per household with a card
An average of about $8,337.69 per (all) household in cc debt

Interesting how close that comes out to the "all consumer debt" figure.
Hmm ... hey math wizards, does that mean that households that don't have credit cards carry about the same in other forms of consumer debt that households with cards carry on them?

[molson]

Does calling people a lot get them to pay their debts faster? I never understood that. Is that a successful strategy?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

Does calling people a lot get them to pay their debts faster? I never understood that. Is that a successful strategy?

I'd say it's more effective than anything short of a lawsuit. Countless bills are paid each month just to get the damned phone to stop ringing.

[miked]

Originally Posted by molson

Does calling people a lot get them to pay their debts faster? I never understood that. Is that a successful strategy?

Yes, especially from old people who may not understand the sliminess of these people. And definitely when they start calling work and/or calling you threatening to freeze your bank accounts, cards, etc.

[gstelmack]

Since I pay all my bills with credit cards these days, thanks to Check21 ruining checks as a viable form of payment, I often have a few thousand sitting on the credit card, but I pay it off every month.

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Hmm ... hey math wizards, does that mean that households that don't have credit cards carry about the same in other forms of consumer debt that households with cards carry on them?

Not looking at it from the math side, but it could also mean that households with cards also carry additional consumer debt.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Celeval

Not looking at it from the math side, but it could also mean that households with cards also carry additional consumer debt.

Yeah, I thought about that last bit but dismissed it as being less likely. I mean, if you've got enough credit to get yourself nearly $10k in credit card debt then are you also the primary market for payday loans? My thinking was that payday loans & such are being used as an alternative to credit card debt (just top of minding a little here)

[lungs]

Some deadbeat that used to work for my dad (before I came home from college) had bill collectors after him. And he happened to use my office line as his phone number. After telling them several times that the guy doesn't work for us anymore, I took out a telephone book and gave them his actual phone number.

Maybe he didn't pay his phone bill because they were calling again two days later. Finally I just switched that line to a fax line

[RainMaker]

I think him paying back his debt isn't the story. Sure he should just like everyone else who gets into debt.

But debt collectors break the law all the time. There are laws in place about when you can call, who you can call, what you can say, and so on. I was someone in debt right out of college that dealt with a couple collection agencies and I will tell you that they are the scum of the Earth. Telling me I'd be going to jail and all sorts of lies. They'd call at odd hours to annoy me and would lie about deals made.

Sorry, but the law is the law and if you break it, you deserve to be taken to court.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think him paying back his debt isn't the story. Sure he should just like everyone else who gets into debt.

But debt collectors break the law all the time. There are laws in place about when you can call, who you can call, what you can say, and so on. I was someone in debt right out of college that dealt with a couple collection agencies and I will tell you that they are the scum of the Earth. Telling me I'd be going to jail and all sorts of lies. They'd call at odd hours to annoy me and would lie about deals made.

Sorry, but the law is the law and if you break it, you deserve to be taken to court.

judges should mandate that his winnings go back to the companies to pay the debts he owes them though

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Does calling people a lot get them to pay their debts faster? I never understood that. Is that a successful strategy?

Yes it is. It also helps when they make up stories about how they will take away your possessions, garnish wages, have you arrested, sue family members. Eventually when you call enough and someone doesn't know their rights, they'll hit a button that will get you to do anything to pay.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

judges should mandate that his winnings go back to the companies to pay the debts he owes them though

Until they sue him for the money and a judge rules in their favor, he doesn't owe them anything.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

judges should mandate that his winnings go back to the companies to pay the debts he owes them though

Except that once a company transfers the account to a collector, they give up their legal rights to the amount owed. Usually what happens is that a company sells their past due accounts receivables to a collection company for a fraction of the total amount.

[DaddyTorgo]

the companies=the debt collection companies in my sentence

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

the companies=the debt collection companies in my sentence

So, while attempting to recover money, you can violate the law repeatedly, then when said claimant sues you and wins you get the money owed and achieve your goal? Unless you want to impose additional jail time on the debt collectors (which I wouldn't oppose) I don't think you quite thought this through.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

So, while attempting to recover money, you can violate the law repeatedly, then when said claimant sues you and wins you get the money owed and achieve your goal? Unless you want to impose additional jail time on the debt collectors (which I wouldn't oppose) I don't think you quite thought this through.

nah...i figured there'd be some breakdown...either he'd get more from his suit then he owed the debt collectors, or else he would pay back x%, or some other arrangement.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

So, while attempting to recover money, you can violate the law repeatedly, then when said claimant sues you and wins you get the money owed and achieve your goal? Unless you want to impose additional jail time on the debt collectors (which I wouldn't oppose) I don't think you quite thought this through.

All without actually having to prove that the person owes you the money in a court of law.

That's the other issue out there. Many of these debts that are out there are either bogus or well past the Statute of Limitations. I went through a check of my credit report 6 months ago and noticed something coming up under collections. I called the number and it was from a company that claimed I had a debt of $100 some odd dollars with BMG. I informed the lady that I had not bought a CD in over 10 years and that the address they had on file for me was for UPS store box I rented a year ago for business deliveries. She basically just said "that's what you owe and you can either pay it or not". I said no way and had to dispute it with 2 of the 3 credit agencies (didn't show up on one) to which it was taken off.

So either someone completely made up the debt from an old list they had, or it's from when I was with Columbia House club back in high school 13 years ago (which I'm certain I paid off). Scary that they had my SS# and an address I don't really use for anything. As some people have mentioned, they seem to just grab any number/address they can find associated to someone and use it even if they don't live there.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

nah...i figured there'd be some breakdown...either he'd get more from his suit then he owed the debt collectors, or else he would pay back x%, or some other arrangement.

You keep leaving out the most important part. The debt companies have not proven anything in a court of law. A judge can't just "take their word for it" in delegating payouts in a completely unrelated case.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You keep leaving out the most important part. The debt companies have not proven anything in a court of law. A judge can't just "take their word for it" in delegating payouts in a completely unrelated case.

fair enough.


whatever - you guys are trying to make it like it was some serious policy-proposal of mine. for chrissakes it was just an off-the-cuff statement and i hadn't thought through all of the possible ways it would work

[jbergey22]

That guy sounds like a real fukin gnat on society.

So basically he gets to steal 100,000 dollars with no intentions of ever paying it back and he is cocky as hell about it. No wonder why the country is having financial problems.

Bite the system and it will bite back. I am sure we will see him spend years in jail for some type of tax evasion.

[stevew]

When you make a purchase at Sears, we usually record your phone number in the database. Basically so Sears can harass you, and I think it also registers the warranty.

Anyways, sometimes I'll ask for their number, and when the name and info associated with that number pops up on the screen I'll say, are you "John Doe?"

They'll say, "no, actually I'm "John Smith", and I just got a new phone number. But you wouldn't believe how many calls a day I get asking for "John Doe" by bill collectors."

Seems like the phone company could be a bit more helpful to the innocents here. I dunno if they could report a number change to the credit bureaus or not(and be compensated of course).

But regardless it's bullshit when "John Smith" gets a new phone number and answers a million calls intended for "John Doe" just cause Smith got a new phone number.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

That guy sounds like a real fukin gnat on society.

So basically he gets to steal 100,000 dollars with no intentions of ever paying it back and he is cocky as hell about it. No wonder why the country is having financial problems.

Bite the system and it will bite back. I am sure we will see him spend years in jail for some type of tax evasion.

I believe that if a debt is charged off completely, you are required to file a 1099 for it. As it is essentially income that you received for nothing. So, I dunno if the companies actually send the 1099's or not. But I agree that he could possibly do some time for evasion. Especially if the credit companies decide to go on the offensive on his ass.

[jbergey22]

Truth be told debt collectors are in a tough spot.

They are trying to collect money from people that consider them last priority in most situations.

Government should mandate debt consolidation management for people unable to pay their bills. There are a lot of people out there that can actually afford to pay these type of bills IF they can get proper money management skills.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by stevew

When you make a purchase at Sears, we usually record your phone number in the database. Basically so Sears can harass you, and I think it also registers the warranty.

Anyways, sometimes I'll ask for their number, and when the name and info associated with that number pops up on the screen I'll say, are you "John Doe?"

They'll say, "no, actually I'm "John Smith", and I just got a new phone number. But you wouldn't believe how many calls a day I get asking for "John Doe" by bill collectors."

Seems like the phone company could be a bit more helpful to the innocents here. I dunno if they could report a number change to the credit bureaus or not(and be compensated of course).

But regardless it's bullshit when "John Smith" gets a new phone number and answers a million calls intended for "John Doe" just cause Smith got a new phone number.

There's a reason I pay in cash and tell retailers I don't have a phone #.

Originally Posted by jbergey

Truth be told debt collectors are in a tough spot.

They are trying to collect money from people that consider them last priority in most situations.

This guy sounds like a jackass, and I do have some sympathy and respect for debt companies that are legitimately trying to track down and get money from people who knowingly defaulted on an agreement. But everyone I know has a story about being called for a debt that wasn't theirs, or that happened due to some weird/questionable paperwork. Personally I've been bitched at over gym memberships twice - once when I went away to college and was still being charged (I told them to see me in court, but apparently they still repeatedly called my home phone and my mother paid it off without telling me for fear of my future credit score) and once when I paid my monthly debt to the gym and kept getting letters about it 3 months later. I had the manager of the gym call and tell them they were wrong, but now maybe I should think about suing some of them if (when) they do so in the future.

[SportsDino]

Screw the debt collectors, they are using illegal methods, if the debt is real they could go through the courts and win easily... however most of these places are run in such a pathetic state that after a while the debts can lose their paper trail and they are literally running on fumes they couldn't prove. In those cases I think they should be screwed for being incompetent at being a collection agency.

I haven't sued anyone, but I've threatened it when the debt collectors were at their worst and trying to ride illegal things through on top of my legitimate debt. One place essentially lost $700 I owed them because they were so busy trying to game a few bucks that it slipped out they hand no paper on me (I asked to verify the debt because they pulled shenanigans, they couldn't and gave another line of bluster, I prepared to sue to have the debt proven/dropped and they had to eat it or pay my court costs to lose).

This is how the courts are supposed to work. If the debt collectors get their heads about them and were run intelligently, this guy would be in jail, because they want to be slummy, they will fail, good riddance.

I'd say the debt estimates are high because the companies know to a good extent that money is going to come in discounted. They can report their fee-inflated amounts all they want, ultimately that pile is going to be worth only so much, and they know if they push collection it will just unwind the clusterfuck and sink their companies balance sheets into a consumerist form of mutually assured destruction. We are stuck with massive credit debt, unfortunately they are stuck with debt based on our debt that without government help they can't liquidate the pile... which is why all the recent policies coming out of our purchased government are scaring me.

If it gets to the point where they think they have enough government backing to pull the pin on the consumer credit grenade, 'boom' goes the economy and all these correlated variables they are not accounting for (say 'consumer confidence') will turn red and the companies end up sinking themselves.

[Raiders Army]

Hmmm...to say I "know" Craig Cunningham isn't accurate, but I did work with him for a period of about 6 months at Fort Bliss prior to moving to icy Oklahoma.

He's a real piece of work. Maybe work isn't apropos since he rarely came to work. Anyhow, he's the type of guy who games the system as much as humanly possible. Instead of trying to use his intellect towards positive contributions to society, he attempted to get over as much as possible and be a pain the ass to everyone. Suffice it to say that he's nobody's hero. This isn't just my opinion, but literally 100% of the people who have worked with him.

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Yeah, I thought about that last bit but dismissed it as being less likely. I mean, if you've got enough credit to get yourself nearly $10k in credit card debt then are you also the primary market for payday loans? My thinking was that payday loans & such are being used as an alternative to credit card debt (just top of minding a little here)

Actually, I'd think a strong market for payday loans are completely maxxed out credit cards.

But I'm sure it's a mix - there's certainly a percentage of people who don't have credit debt who are getting payday loans and such; but I think the split would be more interesting around people who choose to not have credit cards but still have other consumer debt, against people who can't have credit cards (don't qualify, bad credit, etc) and who do.

[RainMaker]

Story I got last night from a friend. His ex-wife apparently got a Discover Card after they were divorced. For whatever reason, they linked it with him as well (he's not sure if his ex put his name and SS# on it).

In any event, she is in debt and he gets calls from the debt collectors. The guy the other day starts rattling off stuff that's on his Facebook page. Saying shit like "we don't want to have to discuss this with your friend Andrea". Then mentioned the company he works for and I guess one of the Vice Presidents at the company (which is a guy who gave him a recommendation on LinkedIn).

Kind of freaked him out as he said the guy was somewhat threatening. Did file a police report on it. Kind of scary what someone can dig up on you through social networking sites.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Story I got last night from a friend. His ex-wife apparently got a Discover Card after they were divorced. For whatever reason, they linked it with him as well (he's not sure if his ex put his name and SS# on it).

In any event, she is in debt and he gets calls from the debt collectors. The guy the other day starts rattling off stuff that's on his Facebook page. Saying shit like "we don't want to have to discuss this with your friend Andrea". Then mentioned the company he works for and I guess one of the Vice Presidents at the company (which is a guy who gave him a recommendation on LinkedIn).

Kind of freaked him out as he said the guy was somewhat threatening. Did file a police report on it. Kind of scary what someone can dig up on you through social networking sites.

I almost sued a company for doing that. It was actually on myspace and not facebook. They finally backed down when they got the cease and desist letter from my lawyer that I had at the time. They kept calling my wife for something her sister did. Neither one of us were co-signers or anything. The debt collector lady even made the mistake of leaving posts which we took screen shots of and printed. This is a very common practice now of debt collectors/skip finders. Of course everything the debt collector said is in violation of the Debt Collection Act (not the correct name of it, but, something very similar to it). I always would tell them, "Oh by the way, I am recording this call.", that usually got the response of, "I didn't give you permission to." Where I would say that they did because of their disclaimer that the call may be monitored or recorded. That usually got them off the phone real quick.

I'd have your friend check his credit report and make sure nothing else is on there his ex wife may have opened up.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Story I got last night from a friend. His ex-wife apparently got a Discover Card after they were divorced. For whatever reason, they linked it with him as well (he's not sure if his ex put his name and SS# on it).

In any event, she is in debt and he gets calls from the debt collectors. The guy the other day starts rattling off stuff that's on his Facebook page. Saying shit like "we don't want to have to discuss this with your friend Andrea". Then mentioned the company he works for and I guess one of the Vice Presidents at the company (which is a guy who gave him a recommendation on LinkedIn).

He should setup some recording equipment on his phone and try to get a quick civil settlement.