Would the last team in the Big East please turn out the lights?

[SirFozzie]

Rumors are spreading that the ACC may decide to buy off the Big East threats by co-opting two more schools and turning into a two division, 14 team division.

The two teams are rumored to be UConn and Virginia Tech.

Geez, the ACC might be turning into Microsoft right before our eyes

[sabotai]

Not on topic, but after a little looking at the threads, I beleive this thread was the 10,000th thread posted! HURRAY!!!

As I look at the forum page, it says 10,000 threads right now and this thread has the latest time for the first post.

[SirFozzie]

Wooohoo! Happy dance!

[Marmel]

Originally posted by SirFozzie
Wooohoo! Happy dance!

Please don't fall down and break another appendage while dancing.

How's the arm doing anyway Foz?

[SirFozzie]

I get the soft cast off tommorrow, and that'll be the end of that part of it.

Of course, I think the muscles (such as they are) have atrophied a bit from the casts (hard and then soft)

[atatange1]

As a Va Tech fan I'm glad we'll get to in the ACC instead of being left in the Big East after Miami leaves. I hope that plan goes through.

[Marmel]

First V Tech wants to go.

Then they want to keep the Big East together (with a lawsuit as well).

now they want to go again.

I wish that place would stop being a bunch of hypocrites and make up their minds on what they want to do.

Same with UConn.

[Samdari]

Linkies???

[SirFozzie]

Probable replacements, VTech and UConn say "Take us With you!"

[ScottVib]

Actually this is something that Maryland AD Debbie Yow said last month in an interview on the John Thompson show (former G'Town coach has an afternoon talk show in the area).

Among the points she made:

"Who said we're stopping at 12... what's wrong with 14?"

"I think Virginia Tech is a good fit in the ACC."

"I expect that before I retire for college athletics to be dominated by 5 or 6 14 team conferences."

Also..

"We'd be pretty stupid to go public with this unless everything was as finalized as possible without having the signatures on paper."


As a UConn fan, I hate the Big East's demise.. but the ACC would probably be their best option if it were offered. It's been reported in the northeastern newspapers that part of the reason that BC has been so gung ho about leaving (frequently they were reported as the Big East team most ready to leave) is that they view this as a "once in a lifetime" opportunity, and if this came up a few years later or UConn had gone 1-A in football earlier, the Huskies and not BC would be the third team in the expansion talks right now.

Also ESPN has an interesting article that says this whole thing came out of a threat FSU made to the ACC to leave the conference unless it brought in Miami:

It's in the box on the side of the article.
http://espn.go.com/ncaa/news/2003/0611/1566481.html

[Wolfpack]

It's been said before and it should be noted again, going beyohd 12 does not make sense from a revenue-sharing standpoint, not to mention makes it that much easier to pry the league apart in the future (see WAC, circa 1998).

At this point, the holdups to ACC expansion are Duke, UNC, and Virginia. Most ACC fans (at least on message boards) are making assumptions that UVa has it's hands tied by the good folks in Richmond and that UNC and Duke are holding out for something, since there is plenty of evidence that contradicts the statements of each school's presidents that they are afraid of all the travel and lost school time, if one looks at the schedules of the various teams they have.

This is not to say that this blocking action is a popular move, though. FSU, Tech, and Clemson fans are rattling sabres about jumping ship (it was rumored that FSU and Tech made a play on the conference call either yesterday or day before that they would consider departing the ACC if expansion fell apart), and several other ACC member fan bases, who all generally loathe UNC and Duke in one way or another, view this as a sort of grandstanding by the two schools and have furthered their dislike of the two and mostly have come to like expansion because they know it'll weaken the power of the two in the conference further.

The question that has been rattling around, then, is if expansion falls through due to the above three schools, does the ACC itself come undone? FSU and Tech are the two newest members of the conference and therefore don't have much fealty to the ACC. Both fan bases have made grumblings in the past that they were more suited to be in the SEC. Clemson also has had a tough time in the ACC as it is a football school in a conference that is dominated by basketball. (Though it should be noted that when the ACC was founded, it was for football purposes. The basketball prowess emerged quickly, though, as Everett Case built NC State and then Frank McGuire built UNC and won the NCAA title over Wilt and Kansas in 1957.)

If those three bolt, either to another conference or to begin working on a new conference with Miami, BC, and Syracuse, what becomes of the remaining six members in the ACC, and for that matter the remainders in the Big East?

Granted, this sort of situation is pretty drastic, but it is being tossed around like crazy on the ACC team boards as a very real possibility, especially from those in the "expand or die" camp.

[cthomer5000]

going beyond 12 is also fairly insane from a football perspective. If forces you to play 6 division games, and then play the teams from the other division once every 3 years at best.

[cthomer5000]

dola

It certainly sounds as if Virginia's hands have been tied with political rope. They appear to be in the "Virginia Tech or no expansion" camp, and I think they are there all alone. Since Virginia Tech cleary isn't at the top of the list, Virginia will be forced to vote no. That's 3 teams against expansion.. and am I correct in saying they need 7 votes?

[Marmel]

Duke or UNC will change their vote. They just want to have their asses kissed for another week or two. They are pompous, and they enjoy making other teams suck up to them, even if they are not even in the driver's seat when you look at the big picture.

I hate everything there is to hate about Syracuse going to the ACC, but I am going to love having UNC and Duke come up to the snowy wasteland that is Syracuse in mid-February and be one of the 35,000+ watching the Orangemen beat the crap out of these guys. I cannot wait to look at that rat face Shitshevski as his team shuffles out of the Dome with a big L.....and to see Roy W. crying again.

[Marmel]

dola....

I hope the whole deal falls apart and FSU and Clemson and GTech leave for greener football pastures. the rest of the Big East and ACC can form a new conference, while Duke and UNC can form their own little 2 team basketabll only conference.

[SirFozzie]

Gee Marm, Bitter Much?

[Samdari]

well, cthomer, apparently both UNC and Duke voted yes in the initial vote that officially started the expansion process. Virginia was the only no.

You do appear to be correct in that Virginia's hands are tied with political rope, and that they need 7 of 9 current schools to vote to invited Miami, BC and Syracuse to join.

I think current ACC members need to realize the following, which has become abundantly clear during this process: Miami and FSU are going to be in a conference together. Period. Do they want it to be the ACC, the Big East, or the SEC?

[scooper]

It won't be in the SEC. The SEC already has the ability to gain two BCS spots each year so adding any schools would not add enough bowl revenue to offset the cost of more schools to share with.

[Samdari]

I am not thinking the SEC would expand for Miami and FSU, they would replace South Carolina and Arkansas with Miami and FSU. A longshot, but apparently any combination of schools is possible.

I agree Marmel needs a Midol, but part of his rant has a grain of truth. If nothing could prevent three schools from leaving the Big East, nothing could prevent 5 Big East and 7 ACC schools from leaving to form the Great Eastern Seaboard Conference (I hereby copyright the name, you are all witnesses) that would generate a tremendous amount of income. Another longshot, of course, but something those schools need to consider. If FSU leaves, does the ACC have enough to keep a BCS bid? If not, isn't it in many schools best interests to seek a conference that would?

[SirFozzie]

Samdari: I was getting Marm's goat, it wasn't mean spirited. ACC without FSU=No BCS bid., I agree.

Either the Big East extorts some kind of compensatory price from the ACC or the ACC adds VTech and UConn as well

[scooper]

Kicking out Arkansas and South Carolina would provoke a much much uglier legal battle than the one going on now.

(No, not as ugly as a girl with too many tatoos and piercings)

[Marmel]

Rumor has it that SEC has an open invitation on the table for FSU. They would kick out Arkansas, who would go to the Big 12, who would kick out Baylor to make room.

As a fan of one of these schools in limbo, yes it does piss me off. Get it done or move on.

[SirFozzie]

Hey Marm, forget who I support?

Hell, it's providing talk about college football during a normally down time. Ain't no bad here.

[Radii]

Marmel, my biggest disappointment after coming to accept that the ACC will be shaken up in some way, was the disappointment that the only quality basketball team from the Big East coming our way would be Syracuse. I've been listening to Big East fans for years try to explain that their conference is just as good as the ACC in basketball, and it's a shame that only Syracuse gets to learn the truth firsthand, and not UConn and Georgetown and the rest of the basketball schools.

[Wolfpack]

The first conference-wide vote two weeks ago was 7-2 with UNC and Duke against and UVa repeatedly saying they were voting for it only if VaTech came along. With the fight lost, UNC and Duke figured they needed to have a say in who got in and both voted for the current candidates. UVa's posturing did not get VaTech added to the list as that vote fell 6-3. UVa I think voted against either or both Syracuse and BC in that case. (Don't know who opposed VT in the ACC, but probably it'd be Wake, Duke, and UNC...Wake is keen on expansion surprisingly because the three new members are all private schools like they are and they don't have to feel like a token Vandy anymore).

Duke and UNC have never been wild on the expansion idea. The ABCD (anybody but Carolina and Duke) fan base in the ACC have daydreamed a world without them, so Marmel may get his wish if the chips fall a certain way. I've entertained the thought myself, just pop UConn and VaTech in their place and there you go. Even so, I have a very hard time envisioning any of the Big Four in NC breaking away to join others in a new conference. There is a really strong attachment to the history and a great sense of pride among the Big Four schools that would be very difficult to break apart. But, if all they have is each other after the dust settles from this affair, what good is that?

[SirFozzie]

Hey BC's pretty darn good themselves, you overgrown radish!

[Samdari]

Originally posted by SirFozzie
Samdari: I was getting Marm's goat, it wasn't mean spirited. ACC without FSU=No BCS bid., I agree.

Either the Big East extorts some kind of compensatory price from the ACC or the ACC adds VTech and UConn as well

Well, the hangup now is not the Big East teams being able to leave, but the ACC welcoming them.

I see one of two possibilities.
1) Many divisional alignments have been discussed. RUMORS have it that UNC and/or Duke will only vote yes if they are in the same division with all of the NC schools. Wake is rumored to want this badly as well.

2) This could have been an elaborate ruse. According to the most popular rumors, UNC and Duke were against this from the get-go. UVa would have been the 7th yes had VPI been part of the plan. At the time, it was reported/rumored that Duke (although now I hear Duke and UNC) changed their vote to make sure that if expansion happened, it happened right (i.e. without VPI). What if that promised yes vote was a bait and switch?

Conspiracy theorists unite! What if UNC and Duke promised to vote yes to keep everyone pointing towards this merger, which would keep them all from seeking others? String everyone along, fooling them into thinking expansion was going swimmingly (other than a futile and expected lawsuit) all the while knowing that you had done so to ensure a third no vote (UVa) and at the same time dragging the process out long enough to prevent anyone (FSU) from making other arrangements?

[SirFozzie]

Samdari: I think sooner or later Duke or NC would get convinced (maybe they'd get the right to set the conferences, or something)

And I don't think they're sneaky enough to pull it off.

Having gone this far, I would not want to piss off FSU by trying it either. If by losing FSU you lose 12-15 million a year from the BCS bid.. BAD idea

[Samdari]

Damn, a perfectly good conspiracy theory, and noone is buying.

[albionmoonlight]

I don't know how much Duke and UNC have to hide. They are doing very well where they are. They are two of the top schools in one of the most lucrative conferences in the country. And the tradition of basketball among the Carolina schools is very powerful. If it were up to them, things would stay right where they are forever. That's pretty much out in the open, I think.

It's too bad about the BCS $$. I'd be happy if FSU left the ACC.

And, Marm, I can understand your Duke/UNC two school conference idea. If I were a fan of another school, I would not want to have to play UNC twice a year, either.

[Marmel]

yes albion, it is tough having an NIT team on your schedule twice a year.

I bet you cannot wait to see the "Tears of Roy" every March now.

[Wolfpack]

Samdari: If that were indeed true and it ever came to light, it would pretty much mean the ACC as we know it dies. FSU would go, Tech would go, and Clemson would go, probably. Maryland and UVa both have up and coming football programs and both have been amenable to expansion and dislike the control the North Carolina schools seem to exert on the conference. This sort of shenanigans will only confirm that thought and they will probably leave because of it. Only State and Wake would be somewhat forgiving, and only out of loyalty to the tradition of the Big Four as noted above. Even so, with State becoming a strong football school and after a decade of struggles in basketball, there is some perception that State has become a football school as well.

albion: They may be doing well where they are. However, I have a feeling the threats of FSU's and Tech's departures are not baseless. I also think commish John Swofford (UNC alum and former UNC AD) has probably talked to the TV gurus and determined that the ACC's interests lie with 12 teams not so much because the payout will be greater per team, but because the decrease will be less. Most analysts say the ACC cannot get $9.7 million/school in a 12-team league. What they haven't considered is whether the payout as a nine-team league may drop to, say, $8.5 million after next contract round could be less than a $9.0 million/school payout in a 12-team league. Everyone's trying to forecast dollar growth. What if this is a move to minimize per-dollar loss? True, due to the wealthy alumni base that Duke and UNC have, the per-dollar loss isn't that big a deal for them, but not every school is so well-funded.

[ScottVib]

The ACC actually does expect to stay at around 9.0 million per team. In the same interview I mentioned above Maryland AD Debbie Yow also said she only supported the plan after getting assurances that everyone would "remain whole". Keeping approximately their current level of payout.

I really think that the meeting will result in one of two things... 1) (the least likely in my opinion) the Eastern Mega-Conference, operated under the ACC umbrella. or more likely IMO 2) The Big East tries to negotiate a settlement to drop the lawsuit and let the teams go, probably requiring the ACC to pay the fees for all teams the Big East adds to replace the departing members and some sort of "damages".

If/when things start to turn south in these scenarios I would expect Va Tech, UConn, and Pitt to begin lobbying the ACC for inclusion should they go to 14 teams.

[albionmoonlight]

Also

is everyone in agreement that Miami is being more trouble than it is worth in this whole thing? They decide that they want to be with FSU, so they leave the Big East hanging. But, they tell the ACC, if you take us, you also need to take two other schools from the Big East, and here are the schools.

Whether they stay in the Big East or go to the ACC, they will probably be a pill every 5 years or so because they know that whatever conference they join will have to give them whatever they want so they don't leave.

Maybe they should just become independant and make it better for everyone.

[ISiddiqui]

Well, all that seems clear right now is that nothing is clear .

The lawsuit was a very big trump card thrown in by the Big East, and if the claims of promises are true, Miami and Syracuse probably can't leave. We'll see what they do with it .

[SirFozzie]

all the lawyers are saying the lawsuit is only good as a delaying tactic. With UConn and VA AG's chiming in, it looks like more and more, a five team expansion will be needed

[Samdari]

Yeah, the lawsuit seems to be BS. All of the schools agreed to be in the league knowing that all schools had out clauses, requiring one year notice and $1 million payment. They are meeting their obligations to the other schools. The Virginia and Conn AG's chiming in is just an intimidation tactic - does not actually give the suit any more merit.

IS, Syracuse is not named in the lawsuit, as noone could find a documented record of them making any promises.

[Wolfpack]

Today's twist to the saga is the fact that a columnist/reporter from the Charlotte paper (a reporter that is generally loathed by most in the area, as I understand, for his willingness to write very inflammatory stuff in his columns) wrote a piece a couple of days ago that said the prior president of FSU made an "annex Miami or else" threat a couple of years ago. Yesterday, said ex-president came out and blasted the notion and came a step shy of calling out the reporter for making the accusation.

Other notions from what I've seen seem to indicate that expansion will go through before the end of the month over Duke and UNC's objections. UVa continues to be in a bind now that the state of Virginia, through its AG, has taken the official position of opposing the expansion by jointly filing with the Connecticut AG.

A 14-team league just won't happen, BTW. If Duke and UNC are squealing so much over three teams, there's no way they'll go for five teams. A lot of the other ACC schools would probably balk at that as well. I can only say that four of the current nine would probably be amenable to a 14-team league: FSU, GT, Clemson, and Maryland (if you take AD Debbie Yow's remarks on their face, given above). State and Wake probably would not want two more schools for different reasons. State would probably not want a revenue stream split 14 ways and were a fence-rider for the 12-team expansion. Wake probably would oppose two more large public universities joining the league. Remember, they're going for this because they see a 7-5 split public/private as a healthy thing, but a 9-5 split would once again relegate private schools, particularly a small one like themselves, to the back bench in conference discussions. Virginia would be undecided. They'd get VaTech in and consequently the Virginia government off their back, but I'm not sure they want to go to 14.

Given all that, the league would split 5-4 at best and any attempt to go to 14 is likely to be snuffed out, regardless of lawsuits (which the plantiffs in the current one say won't be dropped regardless of what happens with the ACC voting).

[ScottVib]

http://www.ctnow.com/sports/college/...sports-college

List of the deposition schedule in the lawsuit.

http://espn.go.com/ncaa/news/2003/0612/1567207.html

List of the documents they are seeking.

http://www.ctnow.com/sports/college/...sports-college

Sources now say the votes are there to defeat the expansion, as Virginia has joined the nays under political pressure.

According to this article Swofford is now pressuring UNC to change its stance to get expansion through.... although FSU's President is still saying that the league will expand by the end of next week.

(Note this is a Connecticut based article, so take it with a grain of salt, although the Courant has done pretty well on its coverage so far)

BTW West Viriginia's AG has also joined the suit.

The Washington Post had the following quote:

"Call me a naive optimist, but I am delighted with where things are right now," North Carolina faculty council executive committee chair Sue Estroff said. "Not with the rancor, [but] I think we have very successfully slowed down this process. I think there is a growing consensus that the conference did not do its homework, did not address the concerns of student-athletes at constituents' institutions, and it was ill-advised to be taken on at this time."

Should be an interesting week next week.

[GrantDawg]

If the SEC had to drop two teams, it should be Arkansas (mainly because of geography) and Vanderbilt. Vandy is barely meeting the attendance criteria for staying in Division I, and the only reason they are is because SEC fans travel. I've been to several Vandy games, and the opposing fans always outnumber the home fans. Pathetic.

I know they have a great history and all, but they shouldn't be in the SEC.

[scooper]

But could they legally drop those teams? That would be one heck of a legal battle, I presume. Not to mention, it would not exactly put a good face on the conference.

[MylesKnight]

Let's hurry it up over there ACC/Big East... The Golden Knights are waiting.

And hey, by the way, UConn and VT, you go ahead and move on over to the ACC as well if it makes you happy (or shall I say, so we don't have to hear you crying anymore like 3 Year Old Children). More open spots in the Big East, means an even greater chance you will see UCF as a member of the Conference in the future, as well as USF. Ahh, the Knights and Cow-Patties in the same Conference, what a thought.

Just make sure WVU and Pitt stick around though, as we do need at least a bit of an old Big East presence.

[digamma]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
If the SEC had to drop two teams, it should be Arkansas (mainly because of geography) and Vanderbilt. Vandy is barely meeting the attendance criteria for staying in Division I, and the only reason they are is because SEC fans travel. I've been to several Vandy games, and the opposing fans always outnumber the home fans. Pathetic.

I know they have a great history and all, but they shouldn't be in the SEC.

Vandy would be grandfathered in to the new D-I requirements.

The ACC would not go to 14. I agree with Wolfpack. The finances do not make sense.

I think the deal will get done, but right now, UConn and VPI&SU are putting up more of a fight than people expected. It has put UVA in a precarious position, but everything will get worked out.

This post on a UVA board is about the best synopsis of the situation I've seen: Half-brother Okie.

[MylesKnight]

That is a fabulous link Digamma.. Definitely a MUST READ!!

[scooper]

A couple answers to Digamma's link, ripped from another board:

Dear Harrassed yet Hopeful,

you should be ashamed of yourself. You can refer to them as girlfriends to assuage your guilt, but indeed they are wedded by ceremony and commitment and have even gone so far as to have signed a prenuptial agreement. So, make no mistake. Whether or not their communion is on solid ground, you are a homewrecker of the most sniveling kind, seeking to take advantage of their family troubles.

If playing the part of interloper wasn't sufficiently despicable, then your walk on the wild side has unveiled the depth of your moral depravity; for, rather than preying on the vulnerability of the three step-sisters, you have chosen to romance their men instead.

Still, advice is my game; and, if I cannot persuade you to display the integrity for which you pay lip service, then I am bound to help.

Here's what you do. Tell Uncle Noel to throw a hissy fit if he does not get his way. After all, this is truly about beach house orgies, the activity of choice for the last decade. Since this relatively newfound activity is more important and more rewarding than the former traditional forms of entertainment and since it was Uncle Noel who introduced it to the group, Uncle Noel should have more say than any of the elders. So, if he threatens to take his brand of deviance elsewhere, Unice and Duke will have no choice but to see it your way.

As a matter of fact, Noel should be able to use this form of persuasion a number of times before anyone tires of it.

I hope I have been of help. Please let me know how things turn out. I'll be especially interested to learn how you handled Fredo's continual refrigerator raids without him ever helping stock it.

By the way, I love how you handle Okie .... but a word of caution. Never, ever let Okie realize that he once co-hosted the Annual Beach Party and actually has been one of the more desired invitees over the last few years while you haven't even been considered. Once this little secret becomes known, Okie will realize that your snotty condescension is based on huff and puff and not accomplishment.

Signed,
Love the one your with Abby.


Dear Harrassed,

(I know Hoo you are, by the way). I think your crabby Uncle and Aunt might be on to something. See, they've met Kane's friends, Otto and Fredo. Turns out that Otto really doesn't want to be at the beach house but he's been threatened into going and he'll show up kicking and screaming. It won't be fun. And then there's Fredo. I think your Uncle and Aunt have figured out that Fredo's been lying all along about how important he is and what he'll add to the vacation. For example, all of that beer and food he says he's bringing? Hah! You haven't seen his refrigerator - it's never filled. Back in his hometown he's known as a deluded deadbeat who thinks he's way more important than he is. He's just a leech. Now I know Uncle Noel's making a fuss about the nasty thing Okie and his crowd have pulled but here's the thing - Uncle Noel might be about to do time anyway, for some illegal gambling and other things he's done that the authorities might finally have to haul his sorry ass in for. So I wouldn't let Uncle Noel be calling the shots here. Bottom line - sometimes the best vacations are with the ones you've been around before.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by digamma
Vandy would be grandfathered in to the new D-I requirements.

Yeah, but the point is if a team can barely muster up enough fans to stay above that level, should they stay in one of the top conferences in the country?

As for can the SEC remove them? That I know nothing about. I've heard from those in the know that it is possible. I think they can throw a carrot out to Arkansas as mentioned earlier (most of their fans would rather be in the Big 12. If they could work out a deal to let them go there). As for Vandy, I don't know.

[tucker342]

anyone else feel like that this whole situation is starting to turn into a bad Mexican Soap Opera???

[ISiddiqui]

tucker: It is well past that .

[ScottVib]

http://www.ctnow.com/sports/college/...sports-college

This article has a couple of key points... first Beano Cook reiterates that even with the expansion the ACC is still only the 5th best conference... and they aren't going to get their TV deal from CBS, as CBS will take one of the other conferences so they can have double headers (CBS owns the SEC rights).

Secondly they are reporting that NC State is now apparently wavering in its support of expansion. You have to think if the tally goes to only 5-4 in favor that the plan might be done.

Edit -

In response to the FSU President mentioning he expects the league to expand (and soon), NC State's President had the following quote:

"It's not at all clear whether expansion will happen ever, let alone next week," Fox said Friday.

Of Wetherell, Fox added, "I don't know why he's so confident."

Also:

Addressing N.C. State's Faculty Athletic Council and the executive committee of the Faculty Senate, Fox said, "I have not made a commitment to vote for or against expansion. This is not a done deal by any means."

Asked by reporters whether she expected expansion to be approved, she said, "There are days when I'm going one way, other days when I'm going another way."


Source: Raleigh News & Observer.

Also a poll on the News & Observer's website asking which school is most to blame for halting ACC expansion has interesting results 48% of the respondants say they "Praise all three" (for halting expansion).

[tucker342]

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
tucker: It is well past that .

good point....