Is Brees Really a "Comeback" Player?

Abe Sargent · 01-06-2005, 09:57 AM

Brees won Best Comeback, leading me to ask what, really, is a comeback?

All Brees did was breakout, and if you want to have an award for best breakout, then that would be acceptable, but comeback? All he did was explode for goodness during his fourth? (third?) year, which a lot of young guys do. That hardly seems like a comeback to me.

-Anxiety

WSUCougar · 01-06-2005, 10:04 AM

He was basically cast aside by the Chargers last season, and the drafting of Rivers was viewed by almost everyone as the nail in his coffin (at least in San Diego). I think he qualifies.

Eaglesfan27 · 01-06-2005, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

He was basically cast aside by the Chargers last season, and the drafting of Rivers was viewed by almost everyone as the nail in his coffin (at least in San Diego). I think he qualifies.

I completely agree.

Ksyrup · 01-06-2005, 10:12 AM

It's a fine line, but I don't think he is a "comeback" player. Going through what Tommy Maddox did, although he was never much of anything in the NFL before, is a comeback. Being the 2nd pick of the draft 3 years ago and having your team draft another guy as #1 the draft before you finally have a good season in your 3rd year, is not a "comeback." That's called a "natural progression" or "QB learning curve coupled with an impatient team."

gstelmack · 01-06-2005, 10:27 AM

It's also called "contract year".

sachmo71 · 01-06-2005, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

It's a fine line, but I don't think he is a "comeback" player. Going through what Tommy Maddox did, although he was never much of anything in the NFL before, is a comeback. Being the 2nd pick of the draft 3 years ago and having your team draft another guy as #1 the draft before you finally have a good season in your 3rd year, is not a "comeback." That's called a "natural progression" or "QB learning curve coupled with an impatient team."

People were starting to "Ryan Leaf" him. Coming back from that is...well, a comeback, IMO.

Deattribution · 01-06-2005, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

It's a fine line, but I don't think he is a "comeback" player. Going through what Tommy Maddox did, although he was never much of anything in the NFL before, is a comeback. Being the 2nd pick of the draft 3 years ago and having your team draft another guy as #1 the draft before you finally have a good season in your 3rd year, is not a "comeback." That's called a "natural progression" or "QB learning curve coupled with an impatient team."

I agree.

They better get ready to give it to Carson Palmer, or David Carr next now, since it'll be about the same case when they hit there stride, aside from the Rivers thing.

He's had a great season, pro bowl for sure, but this award would better suited named Breakout Player instead of Comeback Player.. It'd cover both cases.

Eaglesfan27 · 01-06-2005, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deattribution

I agree.

They better get ready to give it to Carson Palmer, or David Carr next now, since it'll be about the same case when they hit there stride, aside from the Rivers thing.

He's had a great season, pro bowl for sure, but this award would better suited named Breakout Player instead of Comeback Player.. It'd cover both cases.

Apples and Oranges. Carson Palmer and David Carr were never written off by team officials and media "experts" alike. There was talk at the beginning of the year that Brees was never going to be a starter again after this year, that he would be replaced by midyear. I think if Rivers hadn't held out, Brees might never have started. If he didn't start, he likely would have ended up a backup somewhere next year. Palmer and Carr were never in this position. As Sachmo said, he came back from being considered a big time bust.

Ksyrup · 01-06-2005, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sachmo71

People were starting to "Ryan Leaf" him. Coming back from that is...well, a comeback, IMO.

No way was he Ryan Leaf. Leaf had issues above and beyond his ability to play football, which he never showed an inkling of being able to do. Brees not only had some decent success early on, before he had a bad 2nd half last year which coincided with his team tanking it, but I don't recall hearing of any personal issues.

People who said that just did so because Leaf was with the Chargers and failed, and they assumed (wrongly, it appears) that Brees would as well.

Let me ask you this...did Aikman win comeback player of the year in 1991?

Ksyrup · 01-06-2005, 10:37 AM

He had a bad half-year (since he got benched, he didn't play as much as he should have) on a team that sucked and mailed it in. That, after a pretty promising first year. The team gave up on him too quickly, he wasn't a bust (at that point yet, anyway).

sachmo71 · 01-06-2005, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

No way was he Ryan Leaf. Leaf had issues above and beyond his ability to play football, which he never showed an inkling of being able to do. Brees not only had some decent success early on, before he had a bad 2nd half last year which coincided with his team tanking it, but I don't recall hearing of any personal issues.

People who said that just did so because Leaf was with the Chargers and failed, and they assumed (wrongly, it appears) that Brees would as well.

Let me ask you this...did Aikman win comeback player of the year in 1991?

Did they have that award in 91? I can't think that far back.

I just know that a lot of the "experts" were questioning his ability AND potential. He proved them wrong. He came back from the dead. He is the Lazarus of the NFL.

Deattribution · 01-06-2005, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Apples and Oranges. Carson Palmer and David Carr were never written off by team officials and media "experts" alike. There was talk at the beginning of the year that Brees was never going to be a starter again after this year, that he would be replaced by midyear. I think if Rivers hadn't held out, Brees might never have started. If he didn't start, he likely would have ended up a backup somewhere next year. Palmer and Carr were never in this position. As Sachmo said, he came back from being considered a big time bust.

And if he had came back from that 'adversity' and sucked? Would he still be a canidate for Comeback Player?

He wasn't considered a big time bust since they only had a 2nd rounder invested in him, and he only played 2 years prior.. He was written off, yes but then I guess a better example would be Joey Harrington - Does he win the award if he plays well next year?

Ksyrup · 01-06-2005, 10:40 AM

That show really took a dive when Amy Yasbeck joined the cast - which was right around the time Lowell left (maybe they overlapped by a year or so).

sachmo71 · 01-06-2005, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deattribution

And if he had came back from that 'adversity' and sucked? Would he still be a canidate for Comeback Player?

He wasn't considered a big time bust since they only had a 2nd rounder invested in him, and he only played 2 years prior.. He was written off, yes but then I guess a better example would be Joey Harrington - Does he win the award if he plays well next year?

Are people considering him a bust? Sheesh, am I out of the loop.

sachmo71 · 01-06-2005, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

That show really took a dive when Amy Yasbeck joined the cast - which was right around the time Lowell left (maybe they overlapped by a year or so).

HAHA!

Deattribution · 01-06-2005, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sachmo71

Are people considering him a bust? Sheesh, am I out of the loop.

Harrington? yes and no, some people are still holding out some hope while others have been crying since mid season for Mike Mcmahon. Similiar enough to Brees case.

Franklinnoble · 01-06-2005, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sachmo71

I just know that a lot of the "experts" were questioning his ability AND potential. He proved them wrong. He came back from the dead. He is the Lazarus of the NFL.

Let's not be silly. This isn't like Korey Stringer putting up Pro Bowl numbers in 2004 or anything.

WSUCougar · 01-06-2005, 10:44 AM

Did either the Cowboys in 1991 or the Lions (no) pick a quarterback first in the draft with Aikman or Harrington already aboard?

Suicane75 · 01-06-2005, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

That show really took a dive when Amy Yasbeck joined the cast - which was right around the time Lowell left (maybe they overlapped by a year or so).

Farah Forke leaving was the deathknell for that show.
And If Ron Dayne had gained 1,000 yards that would be a "comeback", Drew Brees is not a "comeback".

spleen1015 · 01-06-2005, 10:51 AM

Don't you have to go somewhere before you can comeback there? He wasn't worth a crap before this year, so he didn't 'comeback'. Breakout, yes he did.

Deattribution · 01-06-2005, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Did either the Cowboys in 1991 or the Lions (no) pick a quarterback first in the draft with Aikman or Harrington already aboard?

And how many snaps did that first round pick take to win Brees this award?

sachmo71 · 01-06-2005, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Did either the Cowboys in 1991 or the Lions (no) pick a quarterback first in the draft with Aikman or Harrington already aboard?

No, not that I know of.

Franklin: Brees is the second coming of you-know-who. AND he's the comeback player of the year. *shurg*

rkmsuf · 01-06-2005, 11:06 AM

I don't think he came back from anything. In fact teams were talking about signing him to start for them once Rivers took over.

rafini · 01-06-2005, 11:08 AM

I always considered this award as one for a player coming back from a serious injury or from being out of the league. My pick would've been McGahee.

rkmsuf · 01-06-2005, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rafini

I always considered this award as one for player coming back from a serious injury or from being out of the league. My pick would've been McGahee.

yeah but he never was. Gaining 1 yard would be an improvement.

DeToxRox · 01-06-2005, 11:12 AM

We had this same debate last year when Kitna won.

Surtt · 01-06-2005, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Did either the Cowboys in 1991 or the Lions (no) pick a quarterback first in the draft with Aikman or Harrington already aboard?

Actually, yes Dallas did.
They took Steve Walsh in the supplement draft with their 1st round pick.
(it cost them their 1st round pick in 1992 which I think was around number 3)

Suicane75 · 01-06-2005, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surtt

Actualy, yes Dalis did.
The took Steve Walsh in the suplament draft with there 1st rond pick.
(it cost them their 1 round pick in 1992 which I think was around number 3)

I wish I could remember who it was, but i just heard or saw an interview in the past week where a guy was talking about how Dallas wanted to have options and mutliple talent at QB, which is why they got both Walsh and Aikman. I think it was someone in the Cowboys organization talking about Hensen and how having too much talent at 1 position is never a bad thing and how getting another young QB is not out of the question.

JeeberD · 01-06-2005, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

It's a fine line, but I don't think he is a "comeback" player. Going through what Tommy Maddox did, although he was never much of anything in the NFL before, is a comeback. Being the 2nd pick of the draft 3 years ago and having your team draft another guy as #1 the draft before you finally have a good season in your 3rd year, is not a "comeback." That's called a "natural progression" or "QB learning curve coupled with an impatient team."

Drew was the #2 overall pick?

Ksyrup · 01-06-2005, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Drew was the #2 overall pick?

I meant 2nd round pick. That makes him even less of an immediate bust.

Suicane75 · 01-06-2005, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Drew was the #2 overall pick?

Ya know whats odd. That emoticon looks EXACTLY like you.

henry296 · 01-06-2005, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I wish I could remember who it was, but i just heard or saw an interview in the past week where a guy was talking about how Dallas wanted to have options and mutliple talent at QB, which is why they got both Walsh and Aikman. I think it was someone in the Cowboys organization talking about Hensen and how having too much talent at 1 position is never a bad thing and how getting another young QB is not out of the question.

I think that was Jerry Jones during the Sunday night game.

scooper · 01-06-2005, 11:37 AM

Darn. I was hoping T.J. Houskabushkaramalamadingdong would win it. That would be two Bengals in a row (Kitna)

JeeberD · 01-06-2005, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Ya know whats odd. That emoticon looks EXACTLY like you.

I wish I could raise one eyebrow but not the other...

cthomer5000 · 01-06-2005, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Did either the Cowboys in 1991 or the Lions (no) pick a quarterback first in the draft with Aikman or Harrington already aboard?

Steve Walsh was a #1 in the supplemental draft, no?

scooper · 01-06-2005, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeeberD

I wish I could raise one eyebrow but not the other...

My wife can do that. And we just found out a few days ago that so can my 12-week-old son. I'm not sure what we did to him to piss him off, though.

cthomer5000 · 01-06-2005, 11:42 AM

I always thought the award would be for someone coming back from out of the league or from a serious injury. Not just 'coming back' from a bad season (like the last 2 winners have).

Surtt · 01-06-2005, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Steve Walsh was a #1 in the supplemental draft, no?

What ever round pick you use in the supplemental draft is forfeited the next year.
If you use your 1st round pick in the supplemental draft, you don't get one the next year.
Its like buying on credit. but it still costs the draft pick.

cthomer5000 · 01-06-2005, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surtt

What ever round pick you use in the supplemental draft is forfeited the next year.
If you use your 1st round pick in the supplemental draft, you don't get one the next year.
Its like buying on credit. but it still costs the draft pick.

I understand how it works. My point was that the Cowboys did in fact draft another QB very highly.

Surtt · 01-06-2005, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I understand how it works. My point was that the Cowboys did in fact draft another QB very highly.

Sorry, I miss read your post.

korme · 01-06-2005, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooper

Darn. I was hoping T.J. Houskabushkaramalamadingdong would win it. That would be two Bengals in a row (Kitna)

Agreed, big time injury in 2003, before that he was a 4th or 5th option at best.

This season, Warrick goes down and Houshmandzadeh ends up something like 30 yards away for 1,000.

ISiddiqui · 01-06-2005, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deattribution

AHe was written off, yes but then I guess a better example would be Joey Harrington - Does he win the award if he plays well next year?

GREAT example! If Harrington is great next year I don't think he deserves the Comeback Player of the Year, just like Brees doesn't this year.

Suicane75 · 01-06-2005, 02:32 PM

I would say someone like Jerome Bettis would be a much better choice.

ISiddiqui · 01-06-2005, 03:06 PM

I'd probably throw my vote to Bettis.

WSUCougar · 01-06-2005, 03:11 PM

So “coming back” from 811 rushing yards and 7 TDs in 2003 makes Bettis a better candidate?

I would have voted for Mark Fields myself. He came in 2nd after coming back from Hodgkin's Disease.

GrantDawg · 01-06-2005, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

I don't think he came back from anything. In fact teams were talking about signing him to start for them once Rivers took over.

Actually, the Falcons nearly picked him up at the begining of this year to be a long-term back up for Vick. They couldn't come to a final agreement and the deal fell through right after the draft. What would have the Chargers season been like if that trade had been finalized? How much money would Brees had lost?

stevew · 01-06-2005, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I would say someone like Jerome Bettis would be a much better choice.

Agreed. Either him or Corey Dillon would be a better choice.

Suicane75 · 01-06-2005, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

So “coming back” from 811 rushing yards and 7 TDs in 2003 makes Bettis a better candidate?

I would have voted for Mark Fields myself. He came in 2nd after coming back from Hodgkin's Disease.

Well he was relegated to backup and was seen as only a 3rd down back, so i guess thats why I was thinking of him. But Mark Fields is indeed a better choice.

cthomer5000 · 01-06-2005, 03:41 PM

Mark Fields is the only choice, really. Him or someone else who was completely out of the league, then returned to some success.

Yossarian · 01-06-2005, 04:08 PM

Mark Fields.

Anyone else getting comback player is nut (yeah, including brees)

What's a greater accomplishment: Playing really well, where previously you were average?

Or beating CANCER in one year and playing at a really high level.

Sure, brees is a great story this year, but LOTS of players play well where previously they were average. Look at Nick Goings for the panthers. Been in the league 4 years. Been a practice squad / inactive guy.
This year he steps in and gets 4 100+yard games and has a large part to play in the panthers (near) comeback playoff run.

Now, how is he not a comeback candidate? well, the answer is because nobody expected anythign of him.

The point i'm trying to make isn't that NG should be in consideration, its that 'maturation' and 'increase of ability after previous average play' is a normal part of the NFL and dozens of guys do it. Just because they aint all QB's and just because they weren't all high picks doesn't mean that its any less of an achievement.

What Garrison Hearst did, thats a comeback.
What fields did, thats a comeback.

01-06-2005, 10:12 AM	#4
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	It's a fine line, but I don't think he is a "comeback" player. Going through what Tommy Maddox did, although he was never much of anything in the NFL before, is a comeback. Being the 2nd pick of the draft 3 years ago and having your team draft another guy as #1 the draft before you finally have a good season in your 3rd year, is not a "comeback." That's called a "natural progression" or "QB learning curve coupled with an impatient team." __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

01-06-2005, 10:27 AM	#5
gstelmack Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cary, NC	It's also called "contract year". __________________ -- Greg -- Author of various FOF utilities

01-06-2005, 10:37 AM	#10
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	He had a bad half-year (since he got benched, he didn't play as much as he should have) on a team that sucked and mailed it in. That, after a pretty promising first year. The team gave up on him too quickly, he wasn't a bust (at that point yet, anyway). __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

01-06-2005, 10:40 AM	#13
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	That show really took a dive when Amy Yasbeck joined the cast - which was right around the time Lowell left (maybe they overlapped by a year or so). __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

01-06-2005, 10:44 AM	#18
WSUCougar Rider Of Rohan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Port Angeles, WA or Helm's Deep	Did either the Cowboys in 1991 or the Lions (no) pick a quarterback first in the draft with Aikman or Harrington already aboard? __________________ It's not the years...it's the mileage.

01-06-2005, 10:04 AM	#2
WSUCougar Rider Of Rohan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Port Angeles, WA or Helm's Deep	He was basically cast aside by the Chargers last season, and the drafting of Rivers was viewed by almost everyone as the nail in his coffin (at least in San Diego). I think he qualifies. __________________ It's not the years...it's the mileage.

01-06-2005, 10:51 AM	#20
spleen1015 Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2003	Don't you have to go somewhere before you can comeback there? He wasn't worth a crap before this year, so he didn't 'comeback'. Breakout, yes he did.

01-06-2005, 11:06 AM	#23
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	I don't think he came back from anything. In fact teams were talking about signing him to start for them once Rivers took over. __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales

01-06-2005, 11:08 AM	#24
rafini High School JV Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Virginia Beach	I always considered this award as one for a player coming back from a serious injury or from being out of the league. My pick would've been McGahee. Last edited by rafini : 01-06-2005 at 11:08 AM.

01-06-2005, 11:12 AM	#26
DeToxRox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Michigan	We had this same debate last year when Kitna won.

01-06-2005, 11:37 AM	#33
scooper College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Cinn City	Darn. I was hoping T.J. Houskabushkaramalamadingdong would win it. That would be two Bengals in a row (Kitna)

01-06-2005, 02:32 PM	#43
Suicane75 Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NJ	I would say someone like Jerome Bettis would be a much better choice.

01-06-2005, 03:06 PM	#44
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	I'd probably throw my vote to Bettis. __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams

01-06-2005, 03:11 PM	#45
WSUCougar Rider Of Rohan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Port Angeles, WA or Helm's Deep	So “coming back” from 811 rushing yards and 7 TDs in 2003 makes Bettis a better candidate? I would have voted for Mark Fields myself. He came in 2nd after coming back from Hodgkin's Disease. __________________ It's not the years...it's the mileage.

01-06-2005, 04:08 PM	#50
Yossarian High School Varsity Join Date: Jul 2003	Mark Fields. Anyone else getting comback player is nut (yeah, including brees) What's a greater accomplishment: Playing really well, where previously you were average? Or beating CANCER in one year and playing at a really high level. Sure, brees is a great story this year, but LOTS of players play well where previously they were average. Look at Nick Goings for the panthers. Been in the league 4 years. Been a practice squad / inactive guy. This year he steps in and gets 4 100+yard games and has a large part to play in the panthers (near) comeback playoff run. Now, how is he not a comeback candidate? well, the answer is because nobody expected anythign of him. The point i'm trying to make isn't that NG should be in consideration, its that 'maturation' and 'increase of ability after previous average play' is a normal part of the NFL and dozens of guys do it. Just because they aint all QB's and just because they weren't all high picks doesn't mean that its any less of an achievement. What Garrison Hearst did, thats a comeback. What fields did, thats a comeback.

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