"Chocolate Thunder" Speaks out on Race and Basketball

[stevew]

Originally Posted by http://msn.foxsports.com/story/2638592

Dawkins on hoops in black and white
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Charley Rosen / Special to FOXSports.com
Posted: 3 days ago



Darryl Dawkins has never worried about being politically correct. Ever since he made headlines in 1975 when he became the first schoolboy to be drafted into the NBA (Philadelphia — fifth pick overall), Dawkins was never shy about speaking his mind.

According to Dawkins, the outcome of the upcoming Olympic basketball tournament hinges on a subject no one else dares to fully address — the racial components that define basketball as we know it.
"The game is the same," says Dawkins. "The object is for the good guys to score and to keep the bad guys from scoring. But there's a big difference between black basketball and white basketball."


Darryl Dawkins isn't afraid to sound off on the "big difference between black basketball and white basketball." (NBA Photos / GettyImages)

Growing up poor (but happy) near Orlando, Fla., Dawkins learned the former before he learned the latter. "Black basketball is much more individualistic," he says. "With so many other opportunities closed to young black kids, the basketball court in the playground or the schoolyard is one of the few places where they can assert themselves in a positive way. So if somebody makes you look bad with a shake-and-bake move, then you've got to come right back at him with something better, something more stylish. And if someone fouls you hard, you've got to foul him even harder. It's all about honor, pride, and establishing yourself as a man."

Once the black game moves indoors and becomes more organized, the pressure to establish bona fides increases. "Now you're talking about high school hoops," says Dawkins. "So if you're not scoring beaucoup points, if your picture isn't in the papers, if you don't have a trophy, then you ain't the man and you ain't nothing. Being second-best is just as bad as being last. And if a teammate hits nine shots in a row, the black attitude is, 'Screw him. Now it's my turn to get it on.'"

If young black players usually cherish untrammeled creativity, white hooplings mostly value more team-oriented concepts. "White basketball means passing the hell out of the ball," says Dawkins. "White guys are more willing to do something when somebody else has the ball — setting picks, boxing out, cutting just to clear a space for a teammate, making the pass that leads to an assist pass. In white basketball, there's a more of a sense of discipline, of running set plays and only taking wide open shots. If a guy gets hot, he'll get the ball until he cools off."

Why is white basketball so structured and team-oriented?

"Because the white culture places more of a premium on winning," Dawkins believes, "and less on self-indulgent preening and chest-beating. That's because there are so many other situations in the white culture where a young kid can express himself."

As the twig is bent, so grows the tree. When Dawkins and the Sixers squared off against the Portland Trail Blazers for the NBA championship in 1977, Philadelphia's most dynamic players were Julius Erving, George McGinnis, World B. Free, and Dawkins.

"They beat us in six games," Dawkins recalls, "and the series marked the most blatant example of the racial difference in NBA game plans. We were much more flamboyant than Portland, and certainly more talented. We had more individual moves, more off-balance shots, more fancy passes, more dunks, and more entertaining stuff. But everybody wanted to shoot and be a star (including me), and nobody was willing to do the behind-the-scenes dirty work."

Meanwhile, the white players at the core of Portland's eventual success were Dave Twardzik, Bobby Gross, Larry Steele and Bill Walton. Dawkins notes that "Even the black guys like Lionel Hollins, Mo Lucas, Johnny Davis, Lloyd Neal played disciplined, unselfish white basketball. Credit their coach, Jack Ramsay, for getting everybody on the same page."

As much as Dawkins respected Portland's game plan, however, he was never crazy about Walton. "The guy was a good player who could really pass and had a nice jump hook," Dawkins opines. "What made Walton so effective was that he was surrounded by talented players who wanted to win and weren't concerned with being stars. Personally, I think that Walton was, and still is, full of baloney. Back then, he had this mountain-man image, he smoked lots of pot, and I don't think he bathed regularly. And the league let him play with a red bandana tied around his head. To say nothing of his involvement with Patty Hearst.

"If a black player ever tried any of that kind of stuff he would've been banished from the NBA in a heartbeat. Yet in spite of all the messed up things Walton did as a player, now that he's a TV announcer all he does is tear down everybody else. The guy still ticks me off."

During his 15-year tenure in the NBA, Dawkins' signature move was bulldozing to the basket and smashing the Plexiglas backboard to smithereens. He was brash, outlandish, funny, and irresistible. He called himself "Chocolate Thunder," claimed to be from the planet Lovetron, and devised names for his more awesome dunks — among the most noteworthy were In Your Face Disgrace, Cover Yo Damn Head, Sexophonic Turbo Delight, and his classic If You Ain't Groovin' Best Get Movin'-Chocolate Thunder Flyin'-Robinzine Cryin'-Teeth Shakin'-Glass Breakin'-Rump Roastin'-Bun Toastin'-Glass Still Flyin' Wham-Bam-I-Am Jam!

For the past four years, the 6-foot-11, 285-pound Dawkins has been coaching the Pennsylvania Valley Dawgs in the summertime United States Basketball League. In so doing, he's won two championships (2002 and 2004) and distinguished himself as a superior motivator and big man coach, as well as the kind of on- and off-court teacher who can help transform wild young hooplings into mature gamers. As a by-product of his own maturation, Dawkins can also see the pluses and minuses of both black and white basketball.

"The black game by itself," he says, "is too chaotic and much too selfish. No one player is good enough to beat five opponents on a consistent basis. The black style also creates animosities among the players because everybody ends up arguing about who's shooting too much and who's not shooting enough."

But the white game also has its drawbacks: "It can get too predictable and even too cautious because guys can be afraid to take risks and make mistakes."

Dawkins believes that the best NBA teams combine the best of both. "In basketball and in civilian life," Dawkins says, "freedom without structure winds up being chaotic and destructive. Only when it operates within a system can freedom create something worthwhile."

And, according to Dawkins, this is the most difficult task at hand for Larry Brown. "Only Tim Duncan and Carlos Boozer are willing to play white basketball. All the other guys on Team USA really want to go off on their own.

"Unless Brown can bleach some of the selfish funk from their game, they'll be lucky to win the bronze."

I just stumbled across this article and thought that some might find it interesting. I think his whole "white basketball" and "black basketball" theories are a bit to simplified, but I understand the point he is trying to make.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by stevew

I just stumbled across this article and thought that some might find it interesting. I think his whole "white basketball" and "black basketball" theories are a bit to simplified, but I understand the point he is trying to make.

Agreed. A bit too simplified, but I see his point (and his theory on the underlying cultural reasons are interesting as well...)

[Samdari]

Did you just use "daryl dawkins" and "theory" in the same sentence?

Interesting.

[Ksyrup]

Bill Walton's full of baloney (among other things). Check.
Bill Walton smokes pot. Check.
Bil Walton avoids showers - no personal knowledge, but I can believe it. Check.

Bill Walton and Patty Hearst. What's the story there?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Bill Walton and Patty Hearst. What's the story there?

Walton, was a friend of Jack Scott (later Walton's business adviser I believe).

"Scott, who never shied away from a good dose of publicity, once again found himself in the spotlight in 1975 when a Pennsylvania grand jury subpoenaed him during an investigation into the Patty Hearst case. Hearst had been kidnapped by the Symbionese Liberation Army a year earlier and had subsequently joined her abductors in a number of crimes. At the time, Scott had been writing a book about the Symbionese revolutionaries, and he was privileged enough to meet with Hearst after a Los Angeles shoot-out left six of her radical cohorts dead. Ultimately, he declined the invitation to testify before the grand jury, citing governmental misconduct, but it later became clear that Scott had driven Hearst and two of her co-conspirators across the country, eluding one of the most famous manhunts in U.S. history. Even so, Scott was never charged for any crime.
http://www.oberlin.edu/stupub/ocrevi...orts/time.html

Walton was questioned by the FBI during the Hearst kidnapping. It remains unclear whether he had direct involvement in the incident or if his only connection was being friends with those involved.

[Ksyrup]

I knew it. That's what happens when you listen to the Greatful [He's] Dead.

[Huckleberry]

Let's pretend for a second that he used "inner-city" in place of "black" and "suburban" instead of "white".

What is your response now? How can his logic be argued with if he simply replaced the politically incorrect words with more acceptable ones?

[Shkspr]

I don't know that anyone is arguing against his thesis. (I'll see your 'theory' and raise you one.)

[Logan]

Dawkins lives in the town next to me (Colts Neck, NJ).

A few years back, I walked into a local convenience store and saw him standing at the register. I've seen a fair share of huge athletes, but I guess since I wasn't expecting to see this monster standing there, it surprised me.

Anyway, he was rattling off numbers to the guy manning the lottery machine. He kept on going. I walked over to the deli counter and ordered a sub. After the few minutes it took to make, I went to go pay, and he finally stopped. The guy behind the counter handed him a stack of tickets that had to be 3 inches thick.

Dawkins pulled out a huge wad of hundreds to pay the guy with. I don't know how much he spent exactly, but he spent a nice amount of time pulling out those bills and handing them over.

I guess post-NBA life is boring.

[Buccaneer]

"Because the white culture places more of a premium on winning," Dawkins believes, "and less on self-indulgent preening and chest-beating. That's because there are so many other situations in the white culture where a young kid can express himself."

and his theory on the underlying cultural reasons are interesting as well..

Can you or someone expand upon the cultural reasons? If there are real truths to this (which admittedly, I concur with more than I should), do you think this is one of the fundamental sources for racism and bigotry? To me, it has always been about the content of character (and how one acts) and not about the color of skin. But if cultural pressures demand that you become a selfish, preening showboat on the field or court, then there will be those that will react very much against that.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

...if cultural pressures demand that you become a selfish, preening showboat on the field or court...

Well, I could post an essay that would make Chief Rum look like a short story writer, and make John Galt look like a moderate based just off of that fragment alone, but I'll try to keep it relatively brief.

Let's start with one question, based on the statement above:

What if one culture calls it being a "selfish, preening showboat", while another calls it "being a man?"

Which culture is "right?"

I'm not saying that is exactly the way it is, but as someone who has spent a lot of time in different aspects of both "black" and "white" culture, I'd say that the question I posed above is *often* the root of misunderstandings. I'll give an example from just yesterday:

My wife plays on a recreational tennis team with a group of women from the Tucker area. There are around 8 or 9 white women and two black women on her team, but the "culture" of the team is definitely traditional "white" tennis. All of the teams that they play during the regular season are that way as well. However, the first round of the playoffs, which encompass all of Atlanta, was this weekend. Yesterday, they played a match against an all-black team from an all-black section of town-- definitely a culturally "black" team and culturally black supporters. As you no doubt have observed, in "black" cultural settings, there is a substantial amount more open expressiveness. This manifests itself in many ways. One way is that at virtually all sporting events, even small ones like recreational tennis matches, black crowds tend to cheer for their beloved team (or friends and family members in this particular case) in a much more loud, rowdy and boisterous manner than white crowds. During the regular season, I am quite certain at their "black" vs. "black" tennis matches both crowds were doing what SWMBO's opponents' supporters were doing yesterday: cheering loudly for every point that their team score (even unforced errors), doing a few chants in unison, and generally having a good ol' time. Now, several of the supporters of SWMBO's team were absolutely aghast at this behavior. Again, my question is this: Which one is "right?" Should the "black" way of things been suppressed because they were playing a "white" team, or should the "white" way of doing things taken a back seat to the "black" way of things, and therefore the white supporters not have been appalled at the behavior??? The point is this, either way, someone has to very much compromise what they think is the "right" way to behave at a tennis match in order to accomodate. That didn't happen yesterday, and as a result, most of the white crowd left thinking that the black folks were being rude, and most of the black folks left thinking that the white folks were being racist for calling them rude.

I'm not claiming that I have any answers to situations such as these, but I just wanted to point out that I believe it is a *very* real part of racially-oriented misunderstandings in our society today. The reality for black folks is that in areas such as standard English, standard dress, and the things that Bill Cosby (rightfully, I think), has been talking about lately, we generally have to compromise a part of our culture to succeed in a society that is still very much dominated by "white" culture. For me personally, this isn't a big deal, but I do understand why some assimilate in the essential areas, but (probably subconciously) want to hold on to the non-essentials: "Hey, I'll speak standard English at work and stop showing up on C.P.T., but dadgummit, I'm still gonna chant 'You go, girl' at the top of my lungs and clap in rhythm with my friends every time my sistah wins a point in that tennis match!"

It would be very good if both black and white cultures could ask teh question much more often, "Why am I insisting that my way is 'right'?"

OK. Let the "SkyDog has gone liberal" flames begin.

[Buccaneer]

But where does it come from? I don't think, culturally and historically, it has always been this way?

[Buccaneer]

substantial amount more open expressiveness.

Sort of like white churches and black churches, huh? You wouldn't like our SS class or worship services. Everyone sits politely and reverently with our hands in our laps.

This could be a root in explaining the cultural differences but again, I do wonder where it came from. I am familiar with the slave culture of the Old South but I think that only explains part of it and not what we have seen as a modern trend in sports.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

But where does it come from? I don't think, culturally and historically, it has always been this way?

Hmmm....I think *some* elements of it have been there for a long time, but have remained suppressed due to pressure to be more "mainstream" (ie--"white"-cultured). A classic example would be the evolution of hip-hop. Just 20 years ago, the vast majority of black radio stations wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole. In my home town, the first rap you heard on the radio was Run-DMC's "Walk This Way"--on white radio stations. Why? My opinion is that because the brash braggadacio that one would see in hip-hop--one that I believe has been a part of black culture for a LONG time (due in part to the reasons that Dawkins brings up)--was just too "black" even for black radio stations to embrace. "Doing the dozens" (or "playing the dozens) had been around for decades before it made its way into mainstream culture, primarily through the vehicles of hip-hop, and movies that began to arise from the 80's on that began to put authentic black cultural experiences on the big screen--from somewhat-overstated-yet-basically-realistic characters in movies like "Coming To America", to today's more everyday situations such as seen in the two "Barbershop" movies.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Sort of like white churches and black churches, huh? You wouldn't like our SS class or worship services. Everyone sits politely and reverently with our hands in our laps.

Funny you should mention that. It was *exactly* the other example I was thinking of giving, but cut out in the interest of succinctness.

[Buccaneer]

There is an evolution from african dialects to plantation pigdin to the jivers of Haarlem and then on to Mr Spoons. But it took a mutant form away from jive and hip to get to rap from the Philly ghetto (Perrey P and Grandmaster Tone?) and into the other ghettos. I see original "hip hop" as more of the old form from jive but now just a sanitized version of rap.

[Ben E Lou]

Heh. I realized that I didn't really finish my thought in the 8:41 post. The addendum would be this: I think it is due partly to the evolutions and/or mutations of that form in particular, and partly due to a "we-can-get-away-with-more-than-we-could-have-in-public-in-the-past." The "preening showboat" stuff you see on TV now is stuff you would have seen in my back yard 20-25 years ago every single afternoon and evening during the summers, where sometimes as many as 30 youngsters from my neighborhood would gather to hang out and play ball. It has been a part of black culture for longer than you might realize. The difference is that at the time it was a part of black culture that whites rarely saw, but now they see all the time.

[Ben E Lou]

Dola:

A movie that may have helped accelerate the movement of this sort of stuff from the back yard to the public could possibly have been "White Men Can't Jump."

[Buccaneer]

What about your parent's generation?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

What about your parent's generation?

I don't know for sure about how sports were back then, but as stated in the Bill Cosby threads, they told us in almost these exact words over and over again, "It is fine to talk like that around us, but you also need to learn how to talk around white folks to make it." That generally supports what I'm trying to say.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Dola:

A movie that may have helped accelerate the movement of this sort of stuff from the back yard to the public could possibly have been "White Men Can't Jump."

I think you have to go back farther than that. That movie is much too recent. I would go with "White Shadow" on TV.

But if were to be more accurate about it, instead of just thinking within the limited view of our experiences, I think the Civil Rights movement and the accompanying riots in the mid-late 1960s had something to do with becoming more "openly expressive". About that time then came the ABA with its flash and dash style of hoops, which many termed as a "circus". But then again, I think this happened to be a natural expression but from what in sports, I don't know. What was it like on the playgrounds in the ghettos and the rural black communities of the 40s and 50s?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I think you have to go back farther than that. That movie is much too recent. I would go with "White Shadow" on TV.

Actually, I'd say both helped accelerate the process in their times. I forgot about Coolidge & Company.

What was it like on the playgrounds in the ghettos and the rural black communities of the 40s and 50s?

I think that is a key question, and a missing link in this discussion. There's a large age gap in my family. I have two siblings who are over 50. I'm definitely going to bounce this one off of my brother. He can't tell us about the 40's and 50's, but he was born in '54, and could sure tell me about the climate in the 'hood in the mid-to-late 60's. We didn't live in what would be described as a ghetto by any means, but it was definitely "the 'hood." My family was right on the line between working class and middle class, and we were the "wealthiest" family in our neighborhood. There is a photo a stack of old pictures at my mom's house from the era that fascinates me every time I look at it. It is of four young black good friends, early adolescent males, taken in our neighborhood some time in the mid-60's. One of them was a club and radio DJ for a while, but then his life went down the tubes to alcohol addiction. One became a QB at Georgia Tech, (getting sacked by some guy nicknamed 'Rudy' one afternoon..maybe you've heard of him), and became a successful businessman and family man. One was killed in his early 20's robbing a liquor store. The fourth (my brother) was by all accounts the least "bright" of the group, but made it through college making B's and C's, and now is a well-over-six-figure executive. Go figure.

The point of all of that is that the picture was taken right after a back-yard basketball game, and two of them are grabbing their packages. I get the impression that the braggadacio stuff was going on at least at that time.

[druez]

I don't know about you guys, but white players and black players in just about all sports now are into showboating, celebrating, yelling, dancing etc... Our generation has made that cool and for better or worse (depending on your opinion) black people have helped shape my generation more then any before it. I personally think this is a good thing.

Are there things that I don't like about the black athelete at times? Absolutley. Are there things I don't like about the white athelete? Absolutely. Most old timers don't like how our new generation behaves period, in a wide manner of things.

Anyway, as to Skydog's wifes Tennis Tournament. In Tennis it is considered rude to cheer when someone else messes up. (unforced errors). This is tradition in the sport dating back I guess over a 100 years now. I grew up playing Tennis and I was the captain of my Tennis team. When I was done my match, I yelled and cheered my team on. I clapped when the other team messed up. Yes, I'm white. Yes, I knew differently, but I thought Tennis should be like any other sport and I should be able to cheer when I wish.

Tennis is sport that is usually associated with money. Generally, woman's Tennis teams are comprised of upper middleclass to flat out rich chicks. These people by their very nature are usually a bit stuck up and probably can't deal with the personality the black players brought to the event. BTW did the all black team win the match?

I'm rambling, but issues of race actually bring out the normal side of me in discussions and not my trolling want to be annoying side. I think racial relations are getting better and I would like to think I'm part of the solution. People need to embrace differences in each others culture and not scoff at which they don't understand.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Let's start with one question, based on the statement above:

What if one culture calls it being a "selfish, preening showboat", while another calls it "being a man?"

Which culture is "right?"

When it comes to their actions being a product for sale - the 'culture' doing the buying?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Samdari

When it comes to their actions being a product for sale - the 'culture' doing the buying?

...which circles back to the thought that you see it publicly now because the behavior is more "sell-able" today than it was in the past.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by druez

black people have helped shape my generation more then any before it

Absolutely, and again I'd submit that is why "black" cultural behaviors "sell" today whereas they wouldn't have in the past.

Tennis is sport that is usually associated with money. Generally, woman's Tennis teams are comprised of upper middleclass to flat out rich chicks. These people by their very nature are usually a bit stuck up and probably can't deal with the personality the black players brought to the event.

You're probably right. My wife is pretty sure that one of the women on the team is a flat-out racist. (Not surprisingly, the woman in question is by far the oldest on the team--in her early 60's but still a very solid player--and grew up in a country town in Alabama. She was by a long-shot the most angry/disgusted/indignant.)

BTW did the all black team win the match?

Yes. They crushed my wife's team. That probably didn't help small-town Alabama old woman swallow the behavior.

I'm rambling, but issues of race actually bring out the normal side of me in discussions and not my trolling want to be annoying side.

Well good. I knew you had potential, or I wouldn't let you come back again and again.

I think racial relations are getting better and I would like to think I'm part of the solution. People need to embrace differences in each others culture and not scoff at which they don't understand.

Yes, they are getting better, and imho a BIG part of the solution is honest dialog, removing chips on shoulders of either "side", and acknowledging and understanding the bottom-line, basic cultural differences that need to be taken into account sometimes. Another example would be the use/definition of the word "redneck". I've known of two situations in particular where it became a *HUGELY* blown-out-of-proportion situation due to differing definitions of the word. I'll give an example of one:

To a good number of Southern whites, "redneck" is synonymous with "hick", "hayseed", etc.--just a good ol' country boy, and they use the word to describe just that (such as the Jeff Foxworthy sketches). However, to a good number of Southern blacks, "redneck" is synonymous with "racist"--period, and they use the word to describe David Duke, the Klan, etc.--it has nothing to to do with chewin' tobacco, drivin' a pickup with big ol' tires, goin' to rasslin' matches, etc. At any rate, at one metro Atlanta high school that had been 95%+ white for years, they used to give out a "biggest redneck" among the senior gag awards in the yearbook to the kid who wore camos to school nearly every day because he had gone huntin' before school, drove the pickup with the biggest tires and most mud on it, etc. When a good number of black students started going to this school, some black parents were absolutely AGHAST that they were honoring the school's biggest racist. The good news is that when they figured out that they were talking about two different things, the award was renamed to "biggest hick", and everybody was satisfied.

[druez]

You know I grew up in New Jersey. I went to a school called Kingsway Regional High School. It was racially mixed. I would venture to guess 50 % white and 25 % Hispanic and 25% Black. For the most part our school was more based on clicks then race. Athletes went to the same parties, white, black Hispanic. You get the point. Moving to Houston 4 years ago, I was 26 at the time, was a culture shock.

To me there is so much more open racism or self segregation its appalling, from both "sides". At my first job, on a smoke brake I went to hang out with the black guys outside and the looked at me, like why are you hanging out here. I was like umm, you smoke Newport’s and so do I and I don't know anybody here.

Anyway, rather then ramble on about this let me tell you a story about today. I live in a planned community called Kingwood, TX. It’s an upper middleclass neighborhood with parks and pools everywhere. It’s pretty expensive to live here and its very "white". I would venture to guess somewhere around 90% white. 10% all over races combined, Latino, Asian, African American etc...

So, I go to the park and play basketball with the kids in the neighborhood. Well there are a couple of black kids in the neighborhood who come there to play. Well we are playing hoops and I can just feel the stares from the people. It was really kind of annoying and creepy. I try and organize games with everyone in the area and just have fun. Its just amazing to me how geographical location and really make so much of a difference in people's attitudes and thought.

The amazing thing to me, these people are all religious zealots in my opinion. They've tried to bring me to god, I can't count how many times, yet they are racist to the bone. Me the pagan, atheist or whatever I am have all the kids over to play hoops or XBOX etc... I don't care what Color you are. I try and expose my daughter to kids of all races, so she understands them and can learn they are just like her.

I'm getting off my soap box now, just something that I felt I had to say.

In a sad way, we really need the older generations to die off, so the hatreds can die with them.

[druez]

DOLA

I work in the oil patch down here. Talk about the biggest bunch of racists ever assembled. Not everyone is of course, but for the most part its a good old boy network. I'm a computer geek, but a few times I've had to goto a rig for a few days. It was a complete shock. I mean total. I just didn't realize people were that openly racist anymore.

The jokes (which weren't funny) the names, the attitude was just unbelievable. You know whats funny. They were all cracking jokes about blacks and I stood up and said, I don't find that funny. You guys need to shut the fuck up. At first they thought I was joking, but they saw the look in my eyes and knew I wasn't. I'm sure they could of beaten me down, but they didn't. Most of them walked away ashamed and one other guy said, I don't think they are funny either.

All it takes is one guy in a room, to start change happening...

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by druez

In a sad way, we really need the older generations to die off, so the hatreds can die with them.

I do believe there is a large degree of truth in this. It appears that each generation is largely more tolerant of other races than those previous.

Just look at the amount of interracial dating/marriage/familes and how much more accepted it is today vs. even 10-15 years ago.