Who is the AL MVP?

[samifan24]

Same drill, fellas.

[Suicane75]

I gotta go with Sheffield here, people overlook the fact that Arod had a down year, Jeter was horrid for half the season, there was no Giambi, and the pitching was average at best. Sheff carried that team on his back to the best record in the AL.

[McSweeny]

you might want to add David Ortiz

[SackAttack]

What, Michael Young and Alfonso Soriano don't deserve consideration?

[MizzouRah]

Me like Vlad.


Todd

[McSweeny]

as for my vote, i don't see there's anyway it can be anyone but Manny. He's got better numbers than Sheff across the board and he carried the injury-ridden Red Sox for pretty much the entire first half of the seaon.

309/398/616 vs. 292/395/542

and

43 HR and 130 RBI vs. 36 HR and 119 RBI

Manny it is

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

you might want to add David Ortiz

Originally Posted by SackAttack

What, Michael Young and Alfonso Soriano don't deserve consideration?

I only included Manny, Vlad, and Sheff because I want FOFCers to choose between those three so I can see if you HAD to pick one of them, who among those three you felt was MVP-worthy.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

as for my vote, i don't see there's anyway it can be anyone but Manny. He's got better numbers than Sheff across the board and he carried the injury-ridden Red Sox for pretty much the entire first half of the seaon.

309/398/616 vs. 292/395/542

and

43 HR and 130 RBI vs. 36 HR and 119 RBI

Manny it is

I think you could argue that Sheffield did alot more carrying than Manny.
To say that a guy who had Schilling and Pedro out there 2 out of every 5 days, and Damon and Ortiz surrounding him carried his team is a bit of a stretch.

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

as for my vote, i don't see there's anyway it can be anyone but Manny. He's got better numbers than Sheff across the board and he carried the injury-ridden Red Sox for pretty much the entire first half of the seaon.

309/398/616 vs. 292/395/542

and

43 HR and 130 RBI vs. 36 HR and 119 RBI

Manny it is

Agreed.

I have a feeling that Sheff will end up with it though as Ortiz and Manny will likely split a lot of votes.

[Izulde]

I voted Vlad because I don't think the Angels would be vying for a playoff spot without him.

[Suicane75]

Dola,
As for the Texas guys, I don't think any of them had quite MVP level seasons although they all were quite good. I think Soriano, Blalock, Young and Texeria all played fabulously all season.

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I think you could argue that Sheffield did alot more carrying than Manny.
To say that a guy who had Schilling and Pedro out there 2 out of every 5 days, and Damon and Ortiz surrounding him carried his team is a bit of a stretch.

by your own logic it could also be a bit of a stretch to say Sheff carried a team with Arod, Jeter, Vazquez, and Mussina

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

by your own logic it could also be a bit of a stretch to say Sheff carried a team with Arod, Jeter, Vazquez, and Mussina

An average Arod & below average Mussina and a horrid Jeter & Vazquez.

I dont think you can even start to argue that the 4 Boston players I mentioned had years far and above any of the 4 NY guys you mentioned.

[The_herd]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

An average Arod & below average Mussina and a horrid Jeter & Vazquez.

An average A-Rod is still a top 10ish player. .290 with 35 homers isn't exactly crippling the offense and Jeter's second half play has been downplayed. All that gets attention is the bad 1st half. The guy got his average up to .290 after the horrid start. I don't think Shef has had to carry a team that has scored 881 runs.

[Suicane75]

I'm not saying that he singlehandidly made people forget about Babe Ruth, but he has taken a team that has alot less production from it's stars to the best record in the AL, better than Boston, who as I said, has gotten alot more production from the guys around Manny than around Sheff. Not to mention 2 of the top 5 starters in the league.

[valhalla]

Ichiro gets my vote, 257+ hits in a season is insane..

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I'm not saying that he singlehandidly made people forget about Babe Ruth, but he has taken a team that has alot less production from it's stars to the best record in the AL, better than Boston, who as I said, has gotten alot more production from the guys around Manny than around Sheff. Not to mention 2 of the top 5 starters in the league.

As well as one of the worst 5.......

Boston had more then their share of injuries this year too. Nomar and Nixon missed most of the year, Bellhorn/Pokey were out for a while. Williamson has pitched less then 30IP, Kim summered in Korea and Pawtucket. Mueller missed 6 weeks and Millar left his bat at home for the entire first half. The Yankees aren't the only team with injuries and disappointing performances.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by SoxWin

As well as one of the worst 5.......

Boston had more then their share of injuries this year too. Nomar and Nixon missed most of the year, Bellhorn/Pokey were out for a while. Williamson has pitched less then 30IP, Kim summered in Korea and Pawtucket. Mueller missed 6 weeks and Millar left his bat at home for the entire first half. The Yankees aren't the only team with injuries and disappointing performances.

I'm not saying they are, i'm simply pointing out that Manny had much better production around him all year than Sheffield did IMO.

[Blackadar]

Easily Manny. Best stats across the board. Sheffield doesn't even deserve to be a consideration. A-Rod's stats are about as good as Sheffy's. Hell, so are Matsui's.


A-Rod: .290/.381/.514 35 HRs, 102 RBIs, 111 Runs
Sheffy: .292/.346/.542 36 HRs, 119 RBIs, 117 Runs
Matsui: .292/.389/.514 29 HRS, 106 RBIs, 102 Runs

To say that Sheffield has carried that team is entirely inaccurate.

Ichiro is having a great year, but it's hard to consider him for the MVP given how little he's really done for his team. An OBA of .414 and a slugging of .457 isn't that great. Seattle winning 61 games is kind of hard to justify his inclusion.

Vlad is another case. He has the stats to compare to Manny (stats that across the board are better than Sheffield's, by the way) and is better in the field.

But I really think that Manny deserves it. After his offseason (the off-again, on-again A-Rod trade) and the way he was crucified in the press, he could have just mailed this season in. Instead, he's become a clubhouse leader on a team that desperately needed one and a model citizen.

[Suicane75]

Well, the stats are the stats and I cant argue with the comparability between Sheff, Matsui and Arod, but i can tell you this. To say that Sheff hasn't carried the Yankees is completely inacurate, while the other 2 guys have comparable stats, neither of them has provided the sparks, clutch hits, or great defensive play Sheffield has.

[Blackadar]

So even the statistics lie now? You're a Yankees fan and therefore are rooting for Sheffy. That's ok. That's good enough to bias your opinion. But it doesn't mean that Sheffy is as good or as deserving as Manny or Vlad.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

So even the statistics lie now? You're a Yankees fan and therefore are rooting for Sheffy. That's ok. That's good enough to bias your opinion. But it doesn't mean that Sheffy is as good or as deserving as Manny or Vlad.

Man, I try to be contrite to your opinion and you call me a biased Yankees fan? Jesus dude, calm the fuck down. I'm not a Yankee fan nor do I particuraly like Sheffield, I just know from watching a large portion of Yankees games that he has been the cataylst to the best team in the league and has comparable numbers to Manny. And where the fuck did I say that the numbers lie? I said "the numbers are the numbers and i can't argue with them." Are you trying to be a jackass?

[ISiddiqui]

Looking at the stats, I don't see how Sheffield has 'carried the Yankees'. The stats are the stats. Manny's got no one similar in his lineup.

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Man, I try to be contrite to your opinion and you call me a biased Yankees fan? Jesus dude, calm the fuck down. I'm not a Yankee fan nor do I particuraly like Sheffield, I just know from watching a large portion of Yankees games that he has been the cataylst to the best team in the league and has comparable numbers to Manny. And where the fuck did I say that the numbers lie? I said "the numbers are the numbers and i can't argue with them." Are you trying to be a jackass?

the thing is, that his numbers are not really that comparable to Manny's. Look at the huge difference in slugging percentage, RBI, and Homeruns. If the numbers were slightly closer, then maybe we could bring Sheff carrying the Yankees into play. But in my opinion Manny's numbers are just better all around and any conjecture about things that cannot be measured should not come into play

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Looking at the stats, I don't see how Sheffield has 'carried the Yankees'. The stats are the stats. Manny's got no one similar in his lineup.

And my point is, stats aside, that Sheffield has been the team leader, clutch hitter, and spark plug to the Yankees. You can't look at stats and see intangibles. Now I havn't seen more than 10 red sox games all year, so i cant argue against what manny has meant to that team, but if it were up to me, based on what i've seen, I would give it to Sheffield, and I think that everyone who thinks Manny is a shoo in will be surprised when the voting comes out.

[Suicane75]

Well, I dont think 7HR and 11RBI are far and away better numbers, especially since Sheff has scored 9 more runs. The run production is basicaly equal.

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Well, I dont think 7HR and 11RBI are far and away better numbers, especially since Sheff has scored 9 more runs. The run production is basicaly equal.

i didn't say far and away, though he does destroy Sheffield in slugging percentage. Things like clutch, and spark plug cannot be measured at all. You yourself even say you hardly watched Manny play this season. I don't see how you can base an argument on something that cannot be measured or something that you did not look for or have a chance to look for in the other MVP possibilities.

I hope that makes a little bit of sense...

[ISiddiqui]

my point is, stats aside, that Sheffield has been the team leader, clutch hitter, and spark plug to the Yankees

And has two other players who have ~30 HRs and over 100 RBIs each. So who cares if he's the "team leader"? That didn't make me think Jeter was a better SS than A-Rod. And besides, being a 'clutch hitter' is a myth.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Man, I try to be contrite to your opinion and you call me a biased Yankees fan? Jesus dude, calm the fuck down. I'm not a Yankee fan nor do I particuraly like Sheffield, I just know from watching a large portion of Yankees games that he has been the cataylst to the best team in the league and has comparable numbers to Manny. And where the fuck did I say that the numbers lie? I said "the numbers are the numbers and i can't argue with them." Are you trying to be a jackass?

Being from NJ, I inferred that you are a Yankees fan. Of course, you've also attended or watched a "large portion of Yankees games". Most people don't do that if they're not fans.

And you are trying to argue with the numbers. Once it was shown that Sheffy has two other equivalent hitters in the lineup, including one that hits BEHIND Sheffy and therefore protects him in the lineup, you then went to phase two: trot out things that are harder to disprove like leadership, spark plug, clutch hitting.

I could make the same case with any of the other aforementioned players.

Manny's best numbers were when the Red Sox were devistated by injuries. No Nixon. No Varitek. No Nomar. No matter. Manny put them on his back and carried that team. He's been the clubhouse leader and calming force, despite everything that happened to him in the offseason.

Vlad came in and also carried a team wracked by injuries. Erstad played in only 121 games. Glaus played in 54. Tim Salmon in 60. Garret Anderson played in 109. Guillen is the only one in that lineup to even have hit more than 20 HRs (besides Vlad himself). Only Guillen and Vlad have more than 75 RBIs. So if we want to look at unprotected production, Vlad may have the strongest case of them all.

Again, I just don't see where Sheffield can be considered even equal to either Vlad or Manny. His numbers are clearly inferior and he was far more protected in his lineup batting behind A-Rod. His "intangibles" don't seem to be in any way superior to Vlad or Manny. I just don't see where a logical case can be made for Sheffield to win the AL MVP.

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Looking at the stats, I don't see how Sheffield has 'carried the Yankees'. The stats are the stats. Manny's got no one similar in his lineup.

I'm a Red Sox fan but that's just wrong.

David Ortiz says hi.

300/378/600/978 40hr's 136rbi's 92runs

Edit. Not to mention only 10 less doubles then Matsui/ARod combined.

[ISiddiqui]

Ok, so he has no two similar in his lineup .

I didn't realize Ortiz was having that good of a year.

[Chief Rum]

I picked Vlad, but I must admit I haven't looked at the overall numbers of the three players in question (or others, like Ortiz). I'm just a shameless homer.

CR

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Ok, so he has no two similar in his lineup .

I didn't realize Ortiz was having that good of a year.

He's a frigging monster.

Personally, I think he's the biggest reason behind Manny becoming more vocal and media friendly this year (thus they've taken to annointing Manny as a team leader) The Sox as a team just seem to enjoy playing together, and imo, that started last year with Millar and Ortiz being acquired.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Being from NJ, I inferred that you are a Yankees fan. Of course, you've also attended or watched a "large portion of Yankees games". Most people don't do that if they're not fans.

And you are trying to argue with the numbers. Once it was shown that Sheffy has two other equivalent hitters in the lineup, including one that hits BEHIND Sheffy and therefore protects him in the lineup, you then went to phase two: trot out things that are harder to disprove like leadership, spark plug, clutch hitting.

I could make the same case with any of the other aforementioned players.

Manny's best numbers were when the Red Sox were devistated by injuries. No Nixon. No Varitek. No Nomar. No matter. Manny put them on his back and carried that team. He's been the clubhouse leader and calming force, despite everything that happened to him in the offseason.

Vlad came in and also carried a team wracked by injuries. Erstad played in only 121 games. Glaus played in 54. Tim Salmon in 60. Garret Anderson played in 109. Guillen is the only one in that lineup to even have hit more than 20 HRs (besides Vlad himself). Only Guillen and Vlad have more than 75 RBIs. So if we want to look at unprotected production, Vlad may have the strongest case of them all.

Again, I just don't see where Sheffield can be considered even equal to either Vlad or Manny. His numbers are clearly inferior and he was far more protected in his lineup batting behind A-Rod. His "intangibles" don't seem to be in any way superior to Vlad or Manny. I just don't see where a logical case can be made for Sheffield to win the AL MVP.

Well no, I see alot of Yankees games because I get the YES network and i enjoy watching baseball, so besides Phillies games I watch alot of Yankees games.

And go to option #2, intangibles were what I meant when i said he carried them, i didn't come out and explicitly say it, but it's what I meant. And it's not like the numbers blew me out of the water either, as I said run porduction is pretty much equal.

And I don't think it's even close that Manny has a far better quality of all around team around than Sheffield does, heck, I'd take schilling, pedro and ortiz before I took another yankee if we're starting a team right now. Add in the fact that Sheffield has had a comparable season with essentially 1 arm (that has provided a huge spark to the rest of the team) and the fact that the Yankees have the better record and I think he's more deserving.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Ok, so he has no two similar in his lineup .

I didn't realize Ortiz was having that good of a year.

Yea, Ortiz has been a helluva acquisition for Boston. He really has taken to Boston and he is very protected with Manny hitting behind him. But I wouldn't vote for Ortiz - he's played a lot of DH this year and his stats don't justify his inclusion because of that. He'd have to be head-and-shoulders above everyone else to get my vote as a DH.

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Yea, Ortiz has been a helluva acquisition for Boston. He really has taken to Boston and he is very protected with Manny hitting behind him. But I wouldn't vote for Ortiz - he's played a lot of DH this year and his stats don't justify his inclusion because of that. He'd have to be head-and-shoulders above everyone else to get my vote as a DH.

not to quibble, but Manny hits in front of Ortiz

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

not to quibble, but Manny hits in front of Ortiz

Beat me to it.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Well no, I see alot of Yankees games because I get the YES network and i enjoy watching baseball, so besides Phillies games I watch alot of Yankees games.

And go to option #2, intangibles were what I meant when i said he carried them, i didn't come out and explicitly say it, but it's what I meant. And it's not like the numbers blew me out of the water either, as I said run porduction is pretty much equal.

And I don't think it's even close that Manny has a far better quality of all around team around than Sheffield does, heck, I'd take schilling, pedro and ortiz before I took another yankee if we're starting a team right now. Add in the fact that Sheffield has had a comparable season with essentially 1 arm (that has provided a huge spark to the rest of the team) and the fact that the Yankees have the better record and I think he's more deserving.

There's a couple of things I don't get.

1. What does Schilling and Pedro have to do with Manny's hitting stats? Yes, you can look at the W/L column with those guys, but it's not like the Yankees' pitching sucks ass - especially their bullpen. Gordon, Quantrill and Rivera (especially Gordon and Rivera) have been friggin' monsters. If anything, you could say the Yankees pitching is not as talent-rich, but is much deeper. After Schilling and Pedro, the Sox have Wakefield (4.94 ERA) and Lowe (5.43 ERA). That might favor the Sox in the playoffs, but it doesn' help them in the 3 out of 5 games that Curt or Pedro don't pitch.

You can't tell me the $200 million salaried Yankees squad is in any way talent-impared. They have 6 guys with 20 or more home runs. That doesn't count Ruben Sierra, who has 17 in only 300 ABs. The Red Sox have, um, only two guys with 20 or more HRs.

2. If you'd take Ortiz over A-Rod, I'll trade you any day.

3. I didn't know Sheffield was injured or impared in any way. I think he's had a helluva season either way.

4. My feeling about records is that they count only when there's a large disparity between teams. In this case, there's not.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

not to quibble, but Manny hits in front of Ortiz

Ortiz hits in front of Manny far more often.

Red Sox hitters, by batting position.

#POS PLAYER STATS RUNNER-UP (PA)
1. Johnny Damon .860 OPS as #1 batter (680 PA) Mark Bellhorn (37)
2. Mark Bellhorn .820 OPS as #2 batter (449 PA) Bill Mueller (141)
3. David Ortiz .993 OPS as #3 batter (421 PA) Manny Ramirez (208)
4. Manny Ramirez 1.030 OPS as #4 batter (445 PA) David Ortiz (210)
5. Kevin Millar .825 OPS as #5 batter (214 PA) Jason Varitek (208)
6. Kevin Millar .821 OPS as #6 batter (189 PA) Jason Varitek (175)
7. Kevin Millar 1.076 OPS as #7 batter (124 PA) Orlando Cabrera (81)
8. Bill Mueller 1.014 OPS as #8 batter (177 PA) Gabe Kapler (120)
9. Pokey Reese .578 OPS as #9 batter (238 PA) Gabe Kapler (102)

[Bomber]

Sheffield:
Win Shares: 30 (1st in MLB)
WSAA: 14 (1st in MLB)

Ramirez:
Win Shares: 26
WSAA: 10

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

There's a couple of things I don't get.

1. What does Schilling and Pedro have to do with Manny's hitting stats? Yes, you can look at the W/L column with those guys, but it's not like the Yankees' pitching sucks ass - especially their bullpen. Gordon, Quantrill and Rivera (especially Gordon and Rivera) have been friggin' monsters. If anything, you could say the Yankees pitching is not as talent-rich, but is much deeper. After Schilling and Pedro, the Sox have Wakefield (4.94 ERA) and Lowe (5.43 ERA). That might favor the Sox in the playoffs, but it doesn' help them in the 3 out of 5 games that Curt or Pedro don't pitch.

I didnt say it helped his hitting stats. I'm starting off with the basis that the stats are generaly equal and then saying that Sheffield stats came on a team with a better record and less over talent production.

Originally Posted by Blackadar

You can't tell me the $200 million salaried Yankees squad is in any way talent-impared. They have 6 guys with 20 or more home runs. That doesn't count Ruben Sierra, who has 17 in only 300 ABs. The Red Sox have, um, only two guys with 20 or more HRs.

I would never try to argue that they are talent impaired, I just think that Bostons all around production around Manny has been better, and yes, im including pitching in that.

Originally Posted by Blackadar

2. If you'd take Ortiz over A-Rod, I'll trade you any day.

Right now, for the rest of the season, i'd do that deal in a heartbeat, A-ROD has had as quiet and unproductive 35HR, 100RBI season you'll ever see.

Originally Posted by Blackadar

3. I didn't know Sheffield was injured or impared in any way. I think he's had a helluva season either way.

Yeah, he hasn't been able to lift his shoulder since about June, how he hits is a mystery to me.

Originally Posted by Blackadar

4. My feeling about records is that they count only when there's a large disparity between teams. In this case, there's not.

I can respect that.

[Bomber]

Originally Posted by Bomber

Sheffield:
Win Shares: 30 (1st in MLB)
WSAA: 14 (1st in MLB)

Ramirez:
Win Shares: 26
WSAA: 10

No response on this? I know some people don't like sabermetrics, but doesn't having the largest role in the league in your teams wins pretty much define the Most VALUABLE Player.

[Blackadar]

No response. I've never been convinced that Bill James' Win Shares has any great merit. It's certainly one method to look and compare players, but it's not the only or best method by any means. To me, using that method to determine the MVP is like using the BCS to determine the best college football teams.

[McSweeny]

To follow up on the win share bit. 3 win shares is about equal to one win. So using win shares, which as Blackie says are hardly overly convincing, Sheffield is only one win better than Manny. In other words, hardly convincing considering the large gap that Manny has on Sheffield in all ofensive categories

[Fouts]

The Boston and New York voters will split their votes and Vlad will win it.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by McSweeny

To follow up on the win share bit. 3 win shares is about equal to one win. So using win shares, which as Blackie says are hardly overly convincing, Sheffield is only one win better than Manny. In other words, hardly convincing considering the large gap that Manny has on Sheffield in all ofensive categories

There isn't a large gap at all, in fact their run production is very even.

[ISiddiqui]

No response on this? I know some people don't like sabermetrics, but doesn't having the largest role in the league in your teams wins pretty much define the Most VALUABLE Player.

Ah, but you see, there are many different ways people consider the Most Valuable Player. Some of us look at the other talent on the team and not just who is the Best Player.

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

There isn't a large gap at all, in fact their run production is very even.

sure, but run production is a poor idicator of individual performance and is largely dependant on ones team. Look at this slugging percentages. Manny far and away has the lead there. 15 points in batting average and 7 homeruns are also large gaps. Taking all that into account I just don't see how Sheffield can be considered Most Valuable. Sure he's scored more runs, but we've already established that he's got some pretty awesome guy following him in the order.