Sammy Sosa calls it quits?!??

[Captain2711]

Apparently he rejected the Washington Nationals deal because he didn't want hang on to long.

What he meant to say was that I hit .220 and had only 14 homeruns and since they banned steroids I have completely lost my game. Gone just a day and I miss his arrogant hop already.

[Draft Dodger]

well, .220 is a rather anabolic output.

er, anemic. I meant to say anemic.

[Captain2711]

The real question is, is whether he is a HOF'er or not? To me, his production dropped off too much since the steroid scandal.

[TredWel]

I'd say almost certainly, but definitely not on the first ballot. Time heals all wounds, and his production was so far above the HOF line that even after taking into account a level of steroid inflation, his numbers would still get him in.

[ThunderingHERD]

Good riddance. Can't stand the guy.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by TredWel

I'd say almost certainly, but definitely not on the first ballot. Time heals all wounds, and his production was so far above the HOF line that even after taking into account a level of steroid inflation, his numbers would still get him in.

No way should he be in the hall. Ever.

Steroids. Corked bat.

No way.

[Draft Dodger]

588 home runs is a lot of homers to keep out of the hall without some definitive proof that he was on the juice. If he doesn't get in, he'll have over a hundred bombs more than any other non-HOFer...

don't get me wrong, I think he cheated for sure, but without proof...

[Coffee Warlord]

Good riddance to the biggest "Me First" player in the league.

[watravaler]

Baseball is a "me-first" game, so I can't fault the guy for over-inflating himself. He was fun to watch, regardless of any unknown substances he may have used to get better. I don't believe you can leave a guy with 588 homers out of the hall. He may not be a first-ballot, or even a ten-ballot, or whatever, but Sammy was an all-time great, and I don't think they can keep him out for long. Accoring to Bill James he is a lock...

I also don't buy the "he didn't make his team better" argument. Sosa was the Cubs for a decade, blame the GM.

[Captain2711]

He reminded me of Reggie with his high HR totals and his high Strikeouts, but Reggie proved his worth by winning five titles and making good teams great

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

588 home runs is a lot of homers to keep out of the hall without some definitive proof that he was on the juice. If he doesn't get in, he'll have over a hundred bombs more than any other non-HOFer...

don't get me wrong, I think he cheated for sure, but without proof...

Here's how I've decided to come down on this issue, after giving this way too much thought for someone who isn't paid to give opinions on this sort of stuff. There can be no proof that any of these guys did steroids back in the 90s. The best you'll get is a confession (yeah right), but in reality, all we'll have is anecdotal evidence and possibly a teammate or trainer or someone who claims X player was juicing. There were no tests, so there can't even be some sort of Lance Armstrong-type claim about a test from years ago.

So our definitive proof is not going to happen. But we do know that steroids were in the game. There's no question about that. And we also know that the player's union did whatever they could, under the guise of privacy issues, to keep players from having to be tested, when it was clearly in the players' (just from a health perspective, if nothing else) and the sports' best interests to have the game be clean. So what I've decided is that if the writers and the public and whomever else decides that the guys who defined this era (McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Bonds) aren't Hall-worthy, then they've got no one to blame but themselves and their union. They might be legit, but they lost the right to argue that point now by sitting on their asses and doing nothing about the steroid issue for 15 years. So if that means a clean, but corked bat, egotistical, self-centered Sosa doesn't make the Hall, then dems da breaks, pancho.

[duckman]

Originally Posted by Captain2711

He reminded me of Reggie with his high HR totals and his high Strikeouts, but Reggie proved his worth by winning five titles and making good teams great

Except for that winning five titles and making good teams great part.....

[Captain2711]

Well, Palmeiro is done, McGwire all but admitted it, as did Giambi. I would respect someone's decision to give Giambi the nod at being a better player than Sosa simply for the fact that he has produced power post steroids. Both he and Bonds to me are absolved considering their production last September.

[clintl]

He will get elected. The corked bat is a non-issue - one, corked bats don't work, and two, throwing spitters and related pitches never kept any pitchers out of the Hall, and those pitches actually do give a pitcher an advantage. On the cheating scale, corked bats are like spitters - you serve your suspension if you get caught, and move on, and everyone forgets about it except when they're making a joke about it. Palmeiro's a question mark because he actually got caught in addition to having a suspicious career path, but I don't think that in the end, enough Hall voters are going to withhold votes based only on suspicion.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Captain2711

Both he and Bonds to me are absolved considering their production last September.

Crazy talk.

[Vince]

Originally Posted by KWhit

Crazy talk.

Even as a huge Bonds apologist, I also believe that he should not be absolved simply because he hit a few more homeruns.

[DanGarion]

Wow I didn't know it came out that Sosa did steriods. You guys going to judge him and hang him... Very classy.

[I. J. Reilly]

The sad part about this is that Sosa may be a victim of timing here. He’s 38 years old, and that’s a Latin 38. It’s not inconceivable that he just got old at the wrong time. I think he probably was on steroids, but it’s not out of the realm of possibilities that he was clean and simply lost some bat speed. There have been plenty of players who go from great to out of the game over the course of one or two seasons.

[Bee]

And perhaps he started eating at Subway, which would explain the massive weight loss he experienced when they started drug testing.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Bee

And perhaps he started eating at Subway, which would explain the massive weight loss he experienced when they started drug testing.

Do you have anything for reference on this that I can read, or is this just an assumption?

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by I. J. Reilly

The sad part about this is that Sosa may be a victim of timing here. He’s 38 years old, and that’s a Latin 38. It’s not inconceivable that he just got old at the wrong time. I think he probably was on steroids, but it’s not out of the realm of possibilities that he was clean and simply lost some bat speed. There have been plenty of players who go from great to out of the game over the course of one or two seasons.

That's a fair point. Many athletes fade rather quickly after they hit a certain age.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Captain2711

The real question is, is whether he is a HOF'er or not? To me, his production dropped off too much since the steroid scandal.

Originally Posted by I. J. Reilly

The sad part about this is that Sosa may be a victim of timing here. He’s 38 years old, and that’s a Latin 38. It’s not inconceivable that he just got old at the wrong time. I think he probably was on steroids, but it’s not out of the realm of possibilities that he was clean and simply lost some bat speed. There have been plenty of players who go from great to out of the game over the course of one or two seasons.

Yeah, see- I think this explains the dropoff much more than the steroid thing. Barry Bonds notwithstanding, so few hitters produce at that age, and that's if he's even the age he was claimed (not that anyone has doubted that before). I mean, geez, players like Dale Murphy and Jim Rice fell off a cliff 5 years earlier but it's not because of steroid use- it's just the age where players start to "get old".

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Captain2711

He reminded me of Reggie with his high HR totals and his high Strikeouts, but Reggie proved his worth by winning five titles and making good teams great

Yeah... uh, no. See- this is why the football:baseball analogy just doesn't work. Despite what some Jeter-lovers and others would like to believe, you can't "make your teammates" better through some magical leadership force in baseball. You could be a good influence in the clubhouse and that's somewhat immeasurable but baseball's just not a physical game where there's mentality and effort can really trump skill sometimes like football or basketball and usually, quite the opposite- try too hard and you'll just choke. Sure, your stellar defense could save your teammates some mistakes or your big bat could provide some protection in the lineup so pitchers have to pitch to someone else. But those are fairly quantifiable and not some magical "intangibles"- those just aren't really there in baseball.

SI

[wishbone]

Originally Posted by I. J. Reilly

...He’s 38 years old, and that’s a Latin 38.

What does this mean? Is there some kind of modifier for Latinos that makes time pass differently for them? I'm not criticizing here or offended by the remark but am honestly curious what that means.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by wishbone

What does this mean? Is there some kind of modifier for Latinos that makes time pass differently for them? I'm not criticizing here or offended by the remark but am honestly curious what that means.

I believe this is what he's referring to:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today.../agechart.html
http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/stark...n/1339359.html
http://strikethree.com/02/02/26/jason.shtml

There's a large tendency for players from Latin countries, particularly the Dominican Republic, to have lied on birth certificates. If you're 19 and looking to sign a big league contract in a country where there aren't that many accurate records, it looks a lot better if you say you're 17 and have the skill set of a 19yo- you're a lot better prospect.

SI

[oykib]

Originally Posted by wishbone

What does this mean? Is there some kind of modifier for Latinos that makes time pass differently for them? I'm not criticizing here or offended by the remark but am honestly curious what that means.

There is a lot of falsification of age records for latin ballplayers.

A player who performs at an average level at AA at 24 is probably never going to make the majors, at 21 is probably going to get at least a cup of coffee at some point, at 18 is probably going to be a superstar.

So it's in the interest of players to pretend to be younger. Two years is a fairly common amount. If that's true for Sammy, then he'd really be 40 this year.

[I. J. Reilly]

Originally Posted by wishbone

What does this mean? Is there some kind of modifier for Latinos that makes time pass differently for them? I'm not criticizing here or offended by the remark but am honestly curious what that means.

Sorry, should have clarified that.
It's a bit of a joke in major league baseball that the Latin players aren't completely truthful about their birthdates. Most of these guys are pretty raw when they are first scouted, and they know that a raw 16 year old is much more valuable then a raw 19 year old. Apparently birth records in the Dominican or Puerto Rico are a little bit more flexible then they are here.

(I need to learn to type faster.)

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Yeah, see- I think this explains the dropoff much more than the steroid thing. Barry Bonds notwithstanding, so few hitters produce at that age, and that's if he's even the age he was claimed (not that anyone has doubted that before). I mean, geez, players like Dale Murphy and Jim Rice fell off a cliff 5 years earlier but it's not because of steroid use- it's just the age where players start to "get old".

SI

And as I stated above, "oh well." They blew their opportunity to make the game cleaner than it has been for the past 20 years, so they deserve whatever fallout comes from it. If Dale Murphy didn't have the body of an accountant for his entire career, then perhaps someone would have questioned whether he just "lost it" or had some artificial help. Sosa, Bonds, etc., may be the victims of unfortunate timing, but they don't get any sympathy from me.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

And as I stated above, "oh well." They blew their opportunity to make the game cleaner than it has been for the past 20 years, so they deserve whatever fallout comes from it. If Dale Murphy didn't have the body of an accountant for his entire career, then perhaps someone would have questioned whether he just "lost it" or had some artificial help. Sosa, Bonds, etc., may be the victims of unfortunate timing, but they don't get any sympathy from me.

Well, my post didn't say whether I thought Sosa was hall worthy or not. However, it does address the argument of "clearly, he sucked post-steroid" when it's not so cut-and-dry.

SI

[wishbone]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I believe this is what he's referring to:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today.../agechart.html
http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/stark...n/1339359.html
http://strikethree.com/02/02/26/jason.shtml

There's a large tendency for players from Latin countries, particularly the Dominican Republic, to have lied on birth certificates. If you're 19 and looking to sign a big league contract in a country where there aren't that many accurate records, it looks a lot better if you say you're 17 and have the skill set of a 19yo- you're a lot better prospect.

SI

Oh, that makes sense. I don't follow baseball and didn't know about this.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Well, my post didn't say whether I thought Sosa was hall worthy or not. However, it does address the argument of "clearly, he sucked post-steroid" when it's not so cut-and-dry.

SI

I understand that, but given the circumstances, I'm not willing to just throw him in with the Dale Murphy's of the world.

[pennywisesb]

Originally Posted by Captain2711

Well, Palmeiro is done, McGwire all but admitted it, as did Giambi. I would respect someone's decision to give Giambi the nod at being a better player than Sosa simply for the fact that he has produced power post steroids. Both he and Bonds to me are absolved considering their production last September.

Why is Giambi being thrown into this argument? He isn't even close to being on the same level performance-wise as the others mentioned here. These guys are legends, Giambi is just a good player.

[Young Drachma]

I think that everyone is too hard on Sammy. People turned on this guy when - in reality - he wasn't much different than he had been before at any point in his career.

As far as steroids, I dunno. I think cheating has always been rampant in baseball - look at the size of some of these guys - and it's just that the guys now are getting hit the hardest as though they're the worst cheaters of all time. And I just don't buy that.

I think time will heal all wounds, because it usually does. The steroid cloud is just passing and it's still relatively fresh. But in a decade or so, it won't be on the radar like it is now.

[Oilers9911]

Lance Armstrong, suspicions of steroids, no proof = American Hero
Sammy Sosa, Suspiscian of steroids, no proof = Villified

Kind of a double standard I would say. If steroid use if proven then he shouldn't get in. Other wise he has to go in.

[st.cronin]

Sammy Sosa and Michael Irvin and others make Halls of Fame totally irrelevant to my life. Put him in the HOF, fine; just don't expect me to take a vacation to see your monuments to egomania.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Sammy Sosa and Michael Irvin and others make Halls of Fame totally irrelevant to my life. Put him in the HOF, fine; just don't expect me to take a vacation to see your monuments to egomania.

Yeah but you could go and like draw a mustache on his monument's face.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

Lance Armstrong, suspicions of steroids, no proof = American Hero
Sammy Sosa, Suspiscian of steroids, no proof = Villified

Kind of a double standard I would say. If steroid use if proven then he shouldn't get in. Other wise he has to go in.

How would we prove steroids for anyone who played during the 80s and 90s other than a confession? That's an impossible standard to begin with.

As far as Sosa/Armstrong...I care about baseball and don't give a lick about cycling. And I'm not alone. If Armstrong admitted steroid use tomorrow, I wouldn't even click the article's link on ESPN. We're not outraged by issues involving events/people we don't care about.

And of course, Armstrong had cancer, and even at the height of his popularity, Sammy was a cancer. He's always been a self-absorbed asshole, and for about 3 years we were too wrapped up in his HRs to really admit it. Now that he's pretty much through, he's got nothing but a shitty personality to fall back on.

I think that about explains the "double standard."

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by KWhit

No way should he be in the hall. Ever.

Steroids. Corked bat.

No way.

Ridiculous over-reaction.

Steroids = No proof
Corked bat = No real advantage of using one and he served his punishment for it already

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Here's how I've decided to come down on this issue, after giving this way too much thought for someone who isn't paid to give opinions on this sort of stuff. There can be no proof that any of these guys did steroids back in the 90s. The best you'll get is a confession (yeah right), but in reality, all we'll have is anecdotal evidence and possibly a teammate or trainer or someone who claims X player was juicing. There were no tests, so there can't even be some sort of Lance Armstrong-type claim about a test from years ago.

So our definitive proof is not going to happen. But we do know that steroids were in the game. There's no question about that. And we also know that the player's union did whatever they could, under the guise of privacy issues, to keep players from having to be tested, when it was clearly in the players' (just from a health perspective, if nothing else) and the sports' best interests to have the game be clean. So what I've decided is that if the writers and the public and whomever else decides that the guys who defined this era (McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Bonds) aren't Hall-worthy, then they've got no one to blame but themselves and their union. They might be legit, but they lost the right to argue that point now by sitting on their asses and doing nothing about the steroid issue for 15 years. So if that means a clean, but corked bat, egotistical, self-centered Sosa doesn't make the Hall, then dems da breaks, pancho.

Change the dates to the '50's, '60's & '70's, the drug to Amphetamines and the names to Mays, Mantle, Morgan & Aaron and would you feel the same way?

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

Lance Armstrong, suspicions of steroids, no proof = American Hero
Sammy Sosa, Suspiscian of steroids, no proof = Villified

Kind of a double standard I would say. If steroid use if proven then he shouldn't get in. Other wise he has to go in.

one humungous difference being, of course, that Armstrong has been subject to rigourous steroid testing. Sosa? not so much.

[rkmsuf]

Sosa can alwasy fall back on not speaking or understanding english well enough. He's in the clear here.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Sammy Sosa and Michael Irvin and others make Halls of Fame totally irrelevant to my life. Put him in the HOF, fine; just don't expect me to take a vacation to see your monuments to egomania.

Because Michael Irvin took steriods right? Oh wait, no he was doing lines of coke and giving money to self employed models...

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Change the dates to the '50's, '60's & '70's, the drug to Amphetamines and the names to Mays, Mantle, Morgan & Aaron and would you feel the same way?

Yes, I would, but those decisions have been made and apparently neither baseball, the writers, the players, or the vast majority of fans give a fuck, as compared to what's going on now. At this point, you can't undo what's already been done.

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

[quote= Bee]Originally Posted by Bee
And perhaps he started eating at Subway, which would explain the massive weight loss he experienced when they started drug testing.

Originally Posted by dangarion

Do you have anything for reference on this that I can read, or is this just an assumption?

Yes, there was a trail of blood and yess he had those bloody gloves and yes he ran away from the police, but I didnt actually see OJ shoot anyone therefore I also believe OJ didn't do it.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Sosa can alwasy fall back on not speaking or understanding english well enough. He's in the clear here.

Is Sosa the jbmagic of baseball. Or is jbmagic the Sosa of this board?

[pennywisesb]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Corked bat = No real advantage of using one and he served his punishment for it already

Yes he did serve his punishment, so we can't really hold him accountable for that. I'm just curious where you got this "no real advantage" information reguarding the corked bat. If thats the case, why are they illegal?

[Bee]

Originally Posted by LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

Yes, there was a trail of blood and yess he had those bloody gloves and yes he ran away from the police, but I didnt actually see OJ shoot anyone therefore I also believe OJ didn't do it.

I tried to find a picture of Sosa going into a Subway, but I came up empty.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by pennywisesb

Yes he did serve his punishment, so we can't really hold him accountable for that.

I'm not really sure I understand this rationale. This isn't a criminal trial and there is no double jeopardy here. We most certainly can hold that, or anything anyone else has done, against him, regardless of whether he served his punishment or not. I guess Palmeiro's a lock for the Hall if none of the voters can factor his positive test into their vote since he served his 10 game suspension...?

[Chubby]

the corked bat goes to show that Sosa has no problem cheating which leads more credence to the argument that he used steroids.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I understand that, but given the circumstances, I'm not willing to just throw him in with the Dale Murphy's of the world.

Especially when Dale Murphy is one of the best of the best when it comes to how he has lived his life on and off the field.