Another bombshell black eye for the Catholic Church....

[SirFozzie]

This time in Ireland.

Thousands beaten, raped in Irish reform schools - Boston.com

The report, unveiled by High Court Justice Sean Ryan, found that molestation and rape were "endemic" in boys' facilities, chiefly run by the Christian Brothers, and supervisors pursued policies that increased the danger. Girls supervised by orders of nuns, chiefly the Sisters of Mercy, suffered much less sexual abuse but frequent assaults and humiliation designed to make them feel worthless.

"In some schools a high level of ritualized beating was routine. ... Girls were struck with implements designed to maximize pain and were struck on all parts of the body," the report said. "Personal and family denigration was widespread."

Looks like the Church sued the commission to keep all names, dead or alive, out of the report. Typical. Deny, Coverup, and keep those who committed crimes (not just sin, but crimes), from being named, shamed and charged.

Oh. I love this part.

The commission dismissed as implausible a central defense of the religious orders -- that, in bygone days, people did not recognize the sexual abuse of a child as a criminal offense, but rather as a sin that required repentance.

In their testimony, religious orders typically cited this as the principal reason why sex-predator priests and brothers were sheltered within the system and moved to new posts where they could still maintain daily contact with children.

Unfucking believeable. This is a fucking outrage. Every single one of them should be named in the report, named, shamed, and charged with child abuse, and sent to jail.

[RainMaker]

Pretty amazing too how above the law the Church is. If any of us would have allowed known pedophiles to continue raping children at our schools, we'd be in jail as an accessory.

[JediKooter]

Never hear of anything like that coming out of atheist reform schools...

[Fidatelo]

What does it say that when I read the contents of SirFozzie's post my initial reaction was that the title was incorrect. I went in thinking 'holy moly, what did they do now?' and then switched to 'oh, just more child molestation'.

[Noop]

They might need to do away with not allowing the priest to marry.

[panerd]

Bill Maher (I know, not always the best messenger but still) said it best when he said if the CEO of a chain of day care centers did half of what the Catholic Church has covered up the CEO and all of those involved would be in prison.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Never hear of anything like that coming out of atheist reform schools...

You know, to be fair there are no atheist reform schools and if there were this might be just as much a problem.

I'm against religion as most reasonable people out there, but by the same token I don't think that any Christian religion condones sexual abuse against children.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I'm against religion as most reasonable people out there.....

So people who consider themselves to be religious are unreasonable? I'm sure the question will cause a shit storm, but I that assertion is asinine.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

You know, to be fair there are no atheist reform schools and if there were this might be just as much a problem.

If there were, I don't think it would be. Celibacy plays a pretty big part in it I think.

I'm against religion as most reasonable people out there, but by the same token I don't think that any Christian religion condones sexual abuse against children.

It may not condone it, but I think it'd be very tough to argue that it does enough to punish priests who take part in it.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

So people who consider themselves to be religious are unreasonable? I'm sure the question will cause a shit storm, but I that assertion is asinine.

What I meant was that I am as reasonable as most people against religion; I wasn't saying that people who consider themselves to be religious are unreasonable.

There are some who are atheists that are completely unreasonable; I don't consider myself one of them.

[KWhit]

The commission dismissed as implausible a central defense of the religious orders -- that, in bygone days, people did not recognize the sexual abuse of a child as a criminal offense, but rather as a sin that required repentance.

Wow. Holy fuck!? That was seriously their defense?

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

It may not condone it, but I think it'd be very tough to argue that it does enough to punish priests who take part in it.

If it goes unpunished (as has happened over and over again in the church) it IS being condoned.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

You know, to be fair there are no atheist reform schools and if there were this might be just as much a problem.

I'm against religion as most reasonable people out there, but by the same token I don't think that any Christian religion condones sexual abuse against children.

To be honest, my quote was very tongue in cheek.

However, given the Catholic church's past record on child molestation, I would have to say they do condone it until they are caught and sued.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Noop

They might need to do away with not allowing the priest to marry.

Does that really help though? These guys seem to like fucking little boys. I mean if someone tells me I'm not allowed to marry a woman, I don't start scouring the local little leagues.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Does that really help though? These guys seem to like fucking little boys. I mean if someone tells me I'm not allowed to marry a woman, I don't start scouring the local little leagues.

Guys in prison don't just like fucking men. The natural desire to have sex is stronger than the unnatural attempt to stop yourself.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Guys in prison don't just like fucking men. The natural desire to have sex is stronger than the unnatural attempt to stop yourself.

But guys in prison really don't have a choice in the matter. A Priest can still go out on the town and fuck a couple chicks if he wants.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

But guys in prison really don't have a choice in the matter. A Priest can still go out on the town and fuck a couple chicks if he wants.

No he couldn't, and that's the problem. His access to women is far more limited than his access to vulnerable children.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Does that really help though? These guys seem to like fucking little boys. I mean if someone tells me I'm not allowed to marry a woman, I don't start scouring the local little leagues.

I believe Groundhog has stated what I felt and did so in a manner better then I would have as well. If these guys are sexually repressed and are acting out on children as a result then maybe the who celibacy needs to be done away with in the priesthood.

Then again I wonder how many priest were pedophiles who decided to become priest for easier access to children. I think this has been going on for a long time and if what I suspect is true then the Catholic Church is truly an evil institution.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Noop

If these guys are sexually repressed and are acting out on children as a result then maybe the who celibacy needs to be done away with in the priesthood.

The idiotic thing about clerical celibacy is that, much like numerous other Catholic traditions, the bible never actually demands it.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Noop

I believe Groundhog has stated what I felt and did so in a manner better then I would have as well. If these guys are sexually repressed and are acting out on children as a result then maybe the who celibacy needs to be done away with in the priesthood.

Then again I wonder how many priest were pedophiles who decided to become priest for easier access to children. I think this has been going on for a long time and if what I suspect is true then the Catholic Church is truly an evil institution.

I think that could be the case about them being pedophiles going in. To dedicate your life to the Church and take an oath of celibacy, you probably don't have the same desires that the average man has.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think that could be the case about them being pedophiles going in. To dedicate your life to the Church and take an oath of celibacy, you probably don't have the same desires that the average man has.

EVERYONE has that natural desire. Some more so than others, sure, but after a long enough period of abstinence, well...

As for the pedophiles joining the church, yeah, it probably does happen, but I think with what would be involved in becoming a priest, it would be the exception rather than the rule when it comes to the priest kiddy-fiddlers.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

The idiotic thing about clerical celibacy is that, much like numerous other Catholic traditions, the bible never actually demands it.

Closest it comes is Paul talking about how beating the crap out of himself helped him overcome sexual desire as he encourages celibacy among men in the Church.

Which maybe explains a lot. People don't join the priesthood because they like punching themselves in the nuts.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

The idiotic thing about clerical celibacy is that, much like numerous other Catholic traditions, the bible never actually demands it.

It actually started in the fuedal times - the church instituted this rule because Priests were starting the leave land in their parishes to their children. No children, it all reverts back to the church.

[Mac Howard]

The Judeo/Christian/Islamic tradition has always had problems with sexuality. From the Garden of Eden, Sodom and Gomorrah (the "sin" always assumed to be sexual but never defined), Paul's self-flagellation, celibacy, the Catholic Church's 1300 year demonisation of Mary Magdeline as a prostitute, right down to the Islamic burka and young men being banned from college dances. It's no wonder with such a neurotic approach to mankind's primary instinct that this should result in repression and perverse behaviour.

Why the Catholic Church? I guess because the Protestant churches do not insist on celibacy. But, if Lawrence's Seven Pillars of Wisdom is correct, then buggery of young boys - the avoidance of the sexual power over men by women - is common in the Islamic world also.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

EVERYONE has that natural desire.

Are you married?

[Icy]

The most frustrating thing of all that is that the church made an agreement with the Ireland gob so the abusers names won't be made public nor they will face the justice.

They should be known, judged and root in jail. Maybe there they will learn the pleasures of being forced and raped.

[Icy]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Guys in prison don't just like fucking men. The natural desire to have sex is stronger than the unnatural attempt to stop yourself.

I don't agree, a lot of men doesn't have a woman to have sex with and it doesn't mean they fuck other men or kids. I think masturbation is a good substitute and unless you are homosexual, it should be better than having sex with another man.

I can underestand men or women not able to avoid masturbating (and they shouldn't anyway) as sex desire is human nature, but to have sex with your same gender you must feel an attraction for it, the same about kids.

As heterosexual, I would break my wrist jerking off before wanting to have sex with another man, and kids are not even something that could cross my mind without wanting to puke.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Icy

I don't agree, a lot of men doesn't have a woman to have sex with and it doesn't mean they fuck other men or kids. I think masturbation is a good substitute and unless you are homosexual, it should be better than having sex with another man.

I can underestand men or women not able to avoid masturbating (and they shouldn't anyway) as sex desire is human nature, but to have sex with your same gender you must feel an attraction for it, the same about kids.

As heterosexual, I would break my wrist jerking off before wanting to have sex with another man, and kids are not even something that could cross my mind without wanting to puke.

I think we can safely state that Icy enjoys the comforts of a man's hand, namely his own.

[Kodos]

Icy hit my point.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Icy

I don't agree, a lot of men doesn't have a woman to have sex with and it doesn't mean they fuck other men or kids. I think masturbation is a good substitute and unless you are homosexual, it should be better than having sex with another man.

I can underestand men or women not able to avoid masturbating (and they shouldn't anyway) as sex desire is human nature, but to have sex with your same gender you must feel an attraction for it, the same about kids.

As heterosexual, I would break my wrist jerking off before wanting to have sex with another man, and kids are not even something that could cross my mind without wanting to puke.

I am most definitely not well read on this subject but I am pretty sure there is research out there. I think prison sex is more about control and power than about sexual urges. Not sure what priest/alterboy sex is about but it could be much of the same.

[Warhammer]

So for FOFC Secret Santa this year, Icy is getting a wrist brace, right?

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by panerd

I am most definitely not well read on this subject but I am pretty sure there is research out there. I think prison sex is more about control and power than about sexual urges. Not sure what priest/alterboy sex is about but it could be much of the same.

The church is all about power and control with a candy coated wrapping. How else can you keep the tithe filled?

This is the same church that says that masturbation is a sin. Bascially, everything related to sex or sexualness other than breeding, is a sin. No wonder there is rampant stories like this and probably won't stop until the taboo of sex is lifted in this organization.

[Icy]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I think we can safely state that Icy enjoys the comforts of a man's hand, namely his own.

Originally Posted by Warhammer

So for FOFC Secret Santa this year, Icy is getting a wrist brace, right?

Hehe, i'm happily married and sexually satisfied (as much as a married man with an 1.5 years old kid can be, i was one of those ingenuous that thought that once married would have more sex) but i won't forget my right hand after all that she has done for me in the past, nobody knows what i like like she does.

[molson]

The preisthood is also a place where a lot of gay guys (and pedophiles) could hide out in the 60s and 70s, during a time when being single and in your 30s was odd and suspicious. My father, who went through Lutheran seminary (where there's no restrictions on marraige or kids), has told me that there were even a lot of gay guys there, becoming pastors, I suspect for similar reasons.

It's really bizarre that otherwise socially liberal people can suddenly come to the conclusion that homosexuality and pedophilia are caused by - not getting laid enough (or at all)? That's incredibly ridiculous. It's interesting how people can change their opinions based on their bias. In regular contexts, homosexuality is inherent, not learned (or a choice), but if a church is involved, it's their restrictions that can actually turn people gay (or into child molesters).

[Sgran]

Originally Posted by molson

The preisthood is also a place where a lot of gay guys (and pedophiles) have hidden out since the Renaissance, during a time when being single and in your 30s was odd and suspicious.

Fixed

[RainMaker]

[revrew]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Never hear of anything like that coming out of atheist reform schools...

I don't know why you don't "hear about it", but according to a U.S. Dept of Ed study, sexual abuse by teachers in the public school system (okay, not quite "atheist reform school", but some people would call it that) is significantly worse that it is by Catholic clergy. And this is from teachers/workers/administrators who have no celibacy requirement.

See the following article for stats and explanations:
hxxp://wnd.ha-hosting.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=83705

Now, I'm not Catholic, and I agree the celibacy requirement is both harmful and unbiblical, and the cover-ups and individual tragedies are awful. But the reality is - according to the US Dept of Ed's own numbers - the Catholic church is actually doing a BETTER job of keeping sexual abuse down than our atheist (or at least, secularized) reform (okay, public) schools.

[molson]

Originally Posted by revrew

I don't know why you don't "hear about it", but according to a U.S. Dept of Ed study, sexual abuse by teachers in the public school system (okay, not quite "atheist reform school", but some people would call it that) is significantly worse that it is by Catholic clergy. And this is from teachers/workers/administrators who have no celibacy requirement.

See the following article for stats and explanations:
hxxp://wnd.ha-hosting.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=83705

Now, I'm not Catholic, and I agree the celibacy requirement is both harmful and unbiblical, and the cover-ups and individual tragedies are awful. But the reality is - according to the US Dept of Ed's own numbers - the Catholic church is actually doing a BETTER job of keeping sexual abuse down than our atheist (or at least, secularized) reform (okay, public) schools.

It's much bigger news when a church is involved because it fans one of the culturally acceptable forms of hatred in this country.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by revrew

I don't know why you don't "hear about it", but according to a U.S. Dept of Ed study, sexual abuse by teachers in the public school system (okay, not quite "atheist reform school", but some people would call it that) is significantly worse that it is by Catholic clergy. And this is from teachers/workers/administrators who have no celibacy requirement.

See the following article for stats and explanations:
hxxp://wnd.ha-hosting.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=83705

Now, I'm not Catholic, and I agree the celibacy requirement is both harmful and unbiblical, and the cover-ups and individual tragedies are awful. But the reality is - according to the US Dept of Ed's own numbers - the Catholic church is actually doing a BETTER job of keeping sexual abuse down than our atheist (or at least, secularized) reform (okay, public) schools.

I think there are two things that make the Church stories so big.

1) The fact that these are Priests. Sure it's bad when a teacher turns out to be a pedophile, but it's a little more shocking when it's about a man who has dedicated himself to good and serving the lord.

2) The cover-ups is what kills them. If a superintendent finds out a teacher is molesting kids at the school, most of the time they will get rid of him immediately. The Church on the other hand advocated it, protected the Priests, and were essentially accessories to the crime.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by revrew

I don't know why you don't "hear about it", but according to a U.S. Dept of Ed study, sexual abuse by teachers in the public school system (okay, not quite "atheist reform school", but some people would call it that) is significantly worse that it is by Catholic clergy. And this is from teachers/workers/administrators who have no celibacy requirement.

See the following article for stats and explanations:
hxxp://wnd.ha-hosting.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=83705

Now, I'm not Catholic, and I agree the celibacy requirement is both harmful and unbiblical, and the cover-ups and individual tragedies are awful. But the reality is - according to the US Dept of Ed's own numbers - the Catholic church is actually doing a BETTER job of keeping sexual abuse down than our atheist (or at least, secularized) reform (okay, public) schools.

Even though my original comment was not a serious comment...the BIG difference is, when a teacher or whatever in a public school is caught, they are not moved to another district to continue the molesations. They are arrested, fired and put in jail when found guilty. No government deals, no amnesty, nothing.

On top of that, I think the correct line should be "the Catholic church is actually doing a BETTER job of keeping sexual abuses from being discovered than public schools". Besides, I'd be very wary of an article from the WND.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Even though my original comment was not a serious comment...the BIG difference is, when a teacher or whatever in a public school is caught, they are not moved to another district to continue the molesations. They are arrested, fired and put in jail when found guilty. No government deals, no amnesty, nothing.

That's not always true:

AP: Sexual Misconduct Plagues US Schools - washingtonpost.com

The big similarity is ignorance - we know more about these issues than we did even 20 years ago. Both the public schools and the church made huge mistakes. There was an idea, both in churches and schools and society in general, that the adult was being seduced by the child, and the adult just needed to be seperated from that child. Similar "mistakes", if made today, would or should be criminal. Hopefully things are better today.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by revrew

See the following article for stats and explanations:
hxxp://wnd.ha-hosting.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=83705

But the reality is - according to the US Dept of Ed's own numbers - the Catholic church is actually doing a BETTER job of keeping sexual abuse down than our atheist (or at least, secularized) reform (okay, public) schools.

That conclusion cannot be made on the basis of the quoted research. They are comparing two different studies, with two different methodologies and two different data sets. A more rigorous way to properly do the comparison would be to compare the rate of abuse of public school students vs catholic school students during the same time period with the same sampling methodology. The same survey has to be given to both groups (I believe that the Department of Ed study was survey research). No inference can be made from the catholic church study, because no comparison is made to the public sector. No inference can be made from the Department of Ed study either-I took a cursory look at the quoted article, and the survey population was public-school only, with no attempt to look at catholic schools.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by molson

That's not always true:

AP: Sexual Misconduct Plagues US Schools - washingtonpost.com

The big similarity is ignorance - we know more about these issues than we did even 20 years ago. Both the public schools and the church made huge mistakes. Similar "mistakes", if made today, would or should be criminal. Hopefully things are better today.

Yes, we definitely know more about these issues now, however, no public school that I am aware of is making deals with the government to limit their liability such as the case in Ireland. I honestly don't think that the catholic church would be able to strike a deal with our government.

It sounds like to me, public schools are doing a better job (today) in firing teachers and others than the catholic church, in my opinion.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

with no attempt to look at catholic schools.

Because the World Nut Daily is a christian/conservative based 'news' agency. You don't bite the hand that feeds you...

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by molson

It's really bizarre that otherwise socially liberal people can suddenly come to the conclusion that homosexuality and pedophilia are caused by - not getting laid enough (or at all)? That's incredibly ridiculous. It's interesting how people can change their opinions based on their bias. In regular contexts, homosexuality is inherent, not learned (or a choice), but if a church is involved, it's their restrictions that can actually turn people gay (or into child molesters).

It doesn't turn them gay. Are people serving life in prison who bugger each other gay? If they were out on the streets, I don't suspect they'd be doing it.

You're missing the whole point. It's opportunistic.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

It doesn't turn them gay. Are people serving life in prison who bugger each other gay? If they were out on the streets, I don't suspect they'd be doing it.

You're missing the whole point. It's opportunistic.

So you're saying that if a heterosexual doesn't get laid for a while, he'll resort to homosexual acts (or pedophilia), but not turn entirely gay (he can still be "cured" from the gay behavior, he just needs to get around women again).

That still doesn't sound particularly progressive. You're still saying that sexual attraction and behavior is learned. With sets the gay movement back decades.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by molson

So you're saying that if a heterosexual doesn't get laid for a while, he'll resort to homosexual acts (or pedophilia), but not turn entirely gay (he can still be "cured" from the gay behavior, he just needs to get around women again).

That still doesn't sound particularly progressive. You're still saying that sexual attraction and behavior is learned. With sets the gay movement back decades.

No.

What I'm saying is if someone doesn't get laid for a long while and has no opportunity to "mingle" with the opposite sex, they may do things that they wouldn't usually do under normal circumstances.

It's nothing at all to do with being gay, so I don't see how it "sets the gay movement back decades".

[lungs]

I'm on a pretty long drought myself, but I haven't resorted to men or the animals on my farm.

My left hand works pretty well. Can't prisoners just rub one out?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

No.

What I'm saying is if someone doesn't get laid for a long while and has no opportunity to "mingle" with the opposite sex, they may do things that they wouldn't usually do under normal circumstances.

Like fuck a guy in the ass?

I guess we'll just disagree on that one....

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by lungs

I'm on a pretty long drought myself, but I haven't resorted to men or the animals on my farm.

My left hand works pretty well. Can't prisoners just rub one out?

Yeah, but your access to women is on par with your access to men (I'd think).