Do you care about Vick coming back?

[PilotMan]

So Vick gets out this week. There is already a great deal of discussion about him. There certainly will be a media circus around this. So what is the result going to be? He will play this year, IMO, but what impact will he have on the league or the team that he goes to?

[DaddyTorgo]

I voted "Seeing him fail" but "Not seeing him" sounds good too. There wasn't an option for "Seeing him savagely mauled by a tiger."

[Kodos]

I'd be happy if there wasn't a team out there that was willing to give him a chance, and he ended up playing for the Birmingham Brown Trout or something.

[molson]

I don't mind him trying to make a living in the only (legal) thing he's probably qualified to do, but I really don't want to see him become the face of some franchise and have the media portray it as some feel-good story.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Since we weren't lucky enough for him to be killed in prison I hope he steps in front of an oncoming bus as soon as possible. And I wish nothing except utter & complete misery, misfortune, and disaster upon whichever franchise sells their souls and signs him.

I went with "not seeing him" because the only time I want to see anything about him is when they publish his obit.

[Samdari]

I think he has been punished commensurate with his crime, and want to see him be allowed to pursue an NFL job.

Beyond that, I don't care if he succeeds or not - although I think his face of the franchise days are long behind him.

[Big Fo]

I'd like to see him at least land a backup job/wildcat QB spot. For not stealing from or hurting any people he's gotten a really harsh punishment.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

I'd like to see him at least land a backup job/wildcat QB spot. For not stealing from or hurting any people he's gotten a really harsh punishment.

not a dog owner hmm?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Since we weren't lucky enough for him to be killed in prison I hope he steps in front of an oncoming bus as soon as possible. And I wish nothing except utter & complete misery, misfortune, and disaster upon whichever franchise sells their souls and signs him.

I went with "not seeing him" because the only time I want to see anything about him is when they publish his obit.

I <3 you!

[molson]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

not a dog owner hmm?

I was just reading some of the posts in the original Vick dog fighting thread here and it's incredibly disturbing.

Apparently, people are only against dog fighting because its a "black thing". (goes one theory)

I am kind of glad that Vick ultimately took responsibility and pled guilty (even though that was in his best interest). If he really fought this, or made it a racial issue, he would have had plenty of support, and things would have gotten really ugly.

[DaddyTorgo]

I don't think anyone is against it because it's a black thing...I think people are against it because it's cruel and inhumane. Just so happens in this instance him+his associates were black. I have no doubt there's plenty of rednecks who dogfight and i wish them equally as painful a death.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I don't think anyone is against it because it's a black thing...I think people are against it because it's cruel and inhumane. Just so happens in this instance him+his associates were black. I have no doubt there's plenty of rednecks who dogfight and i wish them equally as painful a death.

Certain "race-card pullers" here at FOFC made the claim (I don't remember if it was directly or indirectly) in the original thread.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Certain "race-card pullers" here at FOFC made the claim (I don't remember if it was directly or indirectly) in the original thread.

aaah. well there's a few bad apples in every bunch

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by molson

I am kind of glad that Vick ultimately took responsibility and pled guilty (even though that was in his best interest). If he really fought this, or made it a racial issue, he would have had plenty of support, and things would have gotten really ugly.

Part of the reason I voted "don't care to see him", is it appears the only reason he has admitted anything is because it is in his best interest. He has repeatedly lied and attempted to cover-up, even after there were clear facts proving what really happened.

In all of this, he has not appeared to show any genuine remorse. I believe that if he could be 100% guaranteed that he would not be caught, he'd go right back to it.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I voted "Seeing him fail" but "Not seeing him" sounds good too. There wasn't an option for "Seeing him savagely mauled by a tiger."

What, "flesh-eating trout" aren't good enough for you?

Anyway, I'm with Jon, but I'll freely admit my opinion is somewhat colored by being horrified at the level of cruelty he visited upon another living thing, especially a mammal, specifically a dog.

Also, he's clearly not remorseful. Sure, he may have paid his debt to society, but I'll bet good money he still thinks he did nothing wrong. And plenty of people agree with him, which is unfortunate.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

What, "flesh-eating trout" aren't good enough for you?

Anyway, I'm with Jon, but I'll freely admit my opinion is somewhat colored by being horrified at the level of cruelty he visited upon another living thing, especially a mammal, specifically a dog.

Also, he's clearly not remorseful. Sure, he may have paid his debt to society, but I'll bet good money he still thinks he did nothing wrong. And plenty of people agree with him, which is unfortunate.

oh i didn't realize that was "interested in seeing him attacked by flesh-eating trout"

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

oh i didn't realize that was "interested in seeing him attacked by flesh-eating trout"

+1

[lordscarlet]

WEll, I think there is some validity in the race statement. Not that people dislike it because it's a black-thing, but there are other "sports" that arguably have cruelty toward animals as well that are legal. None of them go to the extents that dog fighting does, but horse racing and rodeo are not exactly pleasant for the animals involved. That's pretty much the argument. That white people do those other "sports" and it is legal. But dog fighting is a "black thing" so it's illegal. Do I buy it? No. While those other sports are not pleasent for the animal, they don't pit the animals against each other in a fight to the death (or near death).

Just thought I'd try to give a reasoned explanation to the race card theory. I assume (without going back to look at the old thread) that this is the argument that someone may have attempted to get to. It typically is used as "it's only eillegal because we're black." When in reality, dog fighting is illegal because it should be and perhaps horse racing, dog racing, rodeo, etc should be re-evaluated as to whether they should be allowed.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I was and still am horrified by what he did. I'm a dog lover and it was pretty savage. He only want to prison for the gambling aspect of it, so he never really "paid" for this cruelty to animal crimes.

That said, I think he should be allowed back into the NFL at some point, assuming some team will have him. I will not be a fan of that team (even if it is the Lions) and will not want that team or Vick to succeed. But, I will leave it at that.

I have to say I am slightly conflicted. I mean, how many dogs did this guy torture and kill over the years and years he ran this operation simply to satisfy some base urge to compete or gamble or whatever it is that drives someone to do something like that. Then I think about how many animals have been tortured and killed to simply satisfy my asethic taste for meat? Did the pigs/cows in those factory farms really have a better life and/or death than Vick's dogs? Sure, I wasn't the one who did the actual torturing and killing, but I, in essence, just had someone do it for me.

Just something I've been thinking about as I re-evaluate things...

It doesn't mean I have any more sympathy for Vick (or others like him) or feel any less disgusted by the whole thing, just need to check my moral outrage for a moment.

[miked]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

WEll, I think there is some validity in the race statement. Not that people dislike it because it's a black-thing, but there are other "sports" that arguably have cruelty toward animals as well that are legal. None of them go to the extents that dog fighting does, but horse racing and rodeo are not exactly pleasant for the animals involved. That's pretty much the argument. That white people do those other "sports" and it is legal. But dog fighting is a "black thing" so it's illegal. Do I buy it? No. While those other sports are not pleasent for the animal, they don't pit the animals against each other in a fight to the death (or near death).

Just thought I'd try to give a reasoned explanation to the race card theory. I assume (without going back to look at the old thread) that this is the argument that someone may have attempted to get to. It typically is used as "it's only eillegal because we're black." When in reality, dog fighting is illegal because it should be and perhaps horse racing, dog racing, rodeo, etc should be re-evaluated as to whether they should be allowed.

Plus, at the end of the race, the owners don't go on the horse race track and electrocute, beat, or strangle the losing ones. I know there are some injured ones that get put down on the track, but really there is nothing more vile than pitting 2 animals against each other and letting them fight to the death. As a Falcons fan who was at the game when he gave the crowd the finger, I hope he finds a nice career pouring concrete and spends the rest of whatever he has left fighting more court cases.

Let's not forget also that during his bankruptcy proceedings, he was found to have taken 1.35M in pension money from his "company", as well as spending tens of thousands each month to support his family. And his shady charities that spent 10% on charitable activities and paid friends large sums for running them.

I actually think a fitting job would be to wear one of those padded suits to train police dogs all day.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by miked

I actually think a fitting job would be to wear one of those padded suits to train police dogs all day.

Better yet, just let somebody use him as a padded suit or the blocker pad for training police dogs all day.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by miked

Plus, at the end of the race, the owners don't go on the horse race track and electrocute, beat, or strangle the losing ones. .

They usually wait a few days/weeks and sell them to glue factories.

Originally Posted by miked

his shady charities that spent 10% on charitable activities and paid friends large sums for running them. .

I never knew the united way was a Mike Vick charity?

[miked]

Originally Posted by Samdari

They usually wait a few days/weeks and sell them to glue factories.



I never knew the united way was a Mike Vick charity?

Actually, he did give money to the United Way. But several of his charities were shelved even before the dog fighting. In fact, according to Wiki..

According to its 2006 federal tax return, the Michael Vick Foundation provided 100 backpacks to poor children in Newport News and paid for an after-school program in 2006. But, during the same period the foundation spent only 12 percent of its budget — $20,590 of $171,823 — on charitable programs, and paid its fund-raiser, Susan Bass Roberts, a former spokeswoman for Vick, $97,000.

It lists nothing else other than some money given after the VT shootings, so I guess from 2001-6, he didn't feel the need to do much but collect money for overthrowing WRs.

[wade moore]

I made the mistake of re-reading the first 10-15 pages of the old thread.

Some people on this board make me so angry.

[molson]

Originally Posted by miked

Plus, at the end of the race, the owners don't go on the horse race track and electrocute, beat, or strangle the losing ones. I know there are some injured ones that get put down on the track, but really there is nothing more vile than pitting 2 animals against each other and letting them fight to the death. As a Falcons fan who was at the game when he gave the crowd the finger, I hope he finds a nice career pouring concrete and spends the rest of whatever he has left fighting more court cases.

The nice thing about legal activities is that they're subject to regulation. Horce racing, dog racing, etc, are out in the open, are very fairly criticized at times, and are subject to constant debate about what restrictions and safeguards should be in place.

Dogs in dogfighting don't have that kind of protection. They're subject only to the whims of the vile criminals who get off seeing them torn apart.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by wade moore

I made the mistake of re-reading the first 10-15 pages of the old thread.

Some people on this board make me so angry.

I don't remember what I said, other than I got into an argument with people. So was I one of the ones that made you angry?

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I don't remember what I said, other than I got into an argument with people. So was I one of the ones that made you angry?

Nah.

[Noop]

I want to see him succeed.

[PilotMan]

Look, instead of rehashing the past what things can Vick do to prove his worth again? What can he do to rebrand himself in society?

I think that if he plays quiet, does good deeds, speaks out against those who are idots in pro football, and generally follows the mantra that people (no matter their race or culture) take responsibility for their own actions, then he can certainly rebuild and rebrand himself in my eyes and make a much bigger impact on football and society as a whole.

Or he could build houses.

He has a chance here to use his name and abilities to affect change. But will he? And will the press or the angry dog lover let him?

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

And will the press or the angry dog lover let him?

No. Especially not the latter.

[Alan T]

I know he won't be anywhere near my team (The Falcons), and for whatever reason I hold much less animosity towards him now then I did a few seasons ago. I guess success for the Falcons last year helped me get to the point now that I just don't care about Vick anymore.

That said, I understand how horrible everyone views his crimes to have been, but all things considered he pretty much has ruined his life due to his downright stupid and foolish mistakes to the point where he likely has sufficiently paid for his crime. When you consider some of the other scum and sleeze that play in the NFL who have done things just as bad or worse and are still allowed to play, I can't help but think Vick deserves the same opportunity to be able to play again.

I guess my hopes are that Vick is allowed to play again, and he is signed by Oakland. It would possibly be further punishment to Vick to have to play there which will make many of you happy. It also would mean the chances of Vick ever being on my tv to be much less likely which will make me happy. And it means the chance that he would actually enjoy success to be very unlikely too. Pretty much win-win-win (unless you are an oakland fan, but I guess there always has to be collateral damage)

[flere-imsaho]

Oh, my money's definitely on the Raiders being the ones to re-sign him.

[wade moore]

FWIW, if Vick would show true remorse I would be more willing to see him in the NFL and maybe even root for his success. If I felt that he really believed now that what he did was "wrong" (vs. "illegal) and that he was perhaps trying to educate others that it was wrong, my view on this would be very different.

[miked]

The best part about the original thread was this tidbit from Ben:

That might give D.J. the chance to get ready. He'd be one of very few guys that could keep the area interested in the Falcons.

[stevew]

I'm indifferent to the dog abuse. But he should be banned for life for heading an illegal gambling ring. Easily becomes a slippery slope of "make sure you win but try to not cover the spread this Sunday.". Let's not let the PETA people make this all about dogs.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I'm no fan of PETA but for me this was always about the dogs.

[molson]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Look, instead of rehashing the past what things can Vick do to prove his worth again? What can he do to rebrand himself in society?

I think that if he plays quiet, does good deeds, speaks out against those who are idots in pro football, and generally follows the mantra that people (no matter their race or culture) take responsibility for their own actions, then he can certainly rebuild and rebrand himself in my eyes and make a much bigger impact on football and society as a whole.

Or he could build houses.

He has a chance here to use his name and abilities to affect change. But will he? And will the press or the angry dog lover let him?

I'm sure any attempts to "give back" would at least be well publicized. Some people would just assume he's not being genuine, but if he makes large donations to animal charities, I could care less how sincere he is, he would be giving back.

[Noop]

So is playing poker with your friends illegal if it is for money?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by stevew

I'm indifferent to the dog abuse. But he should be banned for life for heading an illegal gambling ring. Easily becomes a slippery slope of "make sure you win but try to not cover the spread this Sunday.". Let's not let the PETA people make this all about dogs.

I'm no fan of PETA either, but I could care less about the gambling ring. Gambling is pretty low on my list of wrongs. Unless you have a "gambling problem" (which I do believe exists), it's pretty much a victimless crime.

It's pretty much all about the dogs for me.

[Noop]

Why not horses? Or Greyhounds?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Noop

Why not horses? Or Greyhounds?

It varies by state. Unless the gambling is done online. Then it's a federal issue.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Wow. Noop you are...

rehashing an old thread.

[miked]

Originally Posted by Noop

So is playing poker with your friends illegal if it is for money?

I guess the "true" comparison would be that you are bankrolling some of your friends to play against other friends, and every time somebody loses a hand, they get stabbed. After said friend loses enough of your money and is sufficiently stabbed, you then step in and hook him up to a car battery, or strangle him with an electric cord because he's costing you too much.

But hey, he was only torturing animals for money and personal pleasure. I guess it was more fun for him than torturing 50k fans per week.

[Young Drachma]

Meh. People made way too much of this and him. But then, he really did think he was invincible up until they made a fool of his ass. But that whole house of cards he'd built up was bound to fall anyway and so, in some ways, this probably saved his life...because surely the way it as going for him wasn't going to be anything closely resembling success in life.

I hope he finds a way to be a productive member of society.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by miked

The best part about the original thread was this tidbit from Ben ...

Don't laugh too much, consider this:

Avg home attendance in 2006 w/ Vick & 7-9 record = 70,432 (10th in NFL)
Avg home attendance in 2008 w/ Ryan & 11-5 record = 64,065 (23rd in NFL)

And while I'll grant you this can move based on opponents but
Avg away attendance in 2006 w/ Vick = 70,388 or 99.9% capacity
Avg away attendance in 2008 w/ Ryan = 65,617 or 94.9% capacity

edit to add: And before anyone figures home attendance started slow with low expectations and then built up as the season unfolded, 64,617 were at the Dome to see the Falcons clinch the 5th seed in the season finale. In 2006, 68,834 was the official attendance for Vick to get his 1,000 yard rushing season in a 10-3 loss to Carolina in Week 16.

People in Atlanta generally want Ryan to do well & the team to win & are very happy with his performance & will watch on TV or catch the highlights on the 11pm news sports recap. But people willing to buy tickets for the Falcons wanted to see Vick do his thing even more. Ryan could win three straight Super Bowls & lead a perfect season and still never get to the popularity level with the general public that Vick had.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by stevew

I'm indifferent to the dog abuse. But he should be banned for life for heading an illegal gambling ring. Easily becomes a slippery slope of "make sure you win but try to not cover the spread this Sunday.". Let's not let the PETA people make this all about dogs.

Abusing any form of life purposely like they did is all about the dogs. Sports come second fiddle to life.

[Radii]

If Goodell wants to make an example of Vick and not re-instate him, I'm perfectly fine with that. It became pretty clear when this all went down that Vick isn't the only one in the league involved with dogfighting and taking a tough stand on it wouldn't be a bad thing.

He has served his time though, so if the NFL sees fit to let him back in the league then I'm not going to stop following the sport or anything. But there's no way in hell I'll ever be able to root for him. Hell I'm not sure right now I could even watch him play without feeling disgusted.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I'm no fan of PETA either, but I could care less about the gambling ring. Gambling is pretty low on my list of wrongs. Unless you have a "gambling problem" (which I do believe exists), it's pretty much a victimless crime.

It's pretty much all about the dogs for me.

Regardless we are on the same side that he's a vile piece of shit

If Roger has any sense a lifetime ban is the only solution to this guy.

He can Fuck himself and work construction for the rest of his life.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Wow. Noop you are...

rehashing an old thread.

I was just wondering why one is considered more evil then the other.

[Karlifornia]

I voted "root for him to succeed", but the truth of the matter is that I don't really care, but I'm certainly not rooting for failure or death or whatever.

The man served his time. If he's good enough to get on a team, he should be given the opportunity.