Utah state lawmakers discuss eliminating the 12th grade

[Young Drachma]

Story

Contending 12th grade is a wasted year for most high school students, Sen. Chris Buttars, R-West Jordan, suggested Monday that the state could save $102 million by compressing high school into three years.
It's uncertain whether Buttars' idea would fly with most Utahns, but the state's top higher education official said the state needs to invest more, not less, in 12th grade.

Buttars outlined his proposal for members of the Public Education Appropriations Subcommittee, dismissing 12th grade as a uniquely American tradition that is followed for reasons no one can identify. He acknowledged getting rid of it won't be easy.
"Sure there's some challenges, but there's answers of most of them," he said, including online classes for students who can't finish high school by the end of 11th grade.

One subcommittee member, Rep. Francis D. Gibson, R-Mapleton, didn't dismiss the proposal out of hand. "Drastic times call for drastic measures," he said. But others said compressing high school wouldn't be good for kids, or the state.

"This is a great training ground for the leaders in our community because this is the time when students get their maturity," said Rep. Marie Poulson, a Cottonwood Heights Democrat and former high school teacher. "Because of our budget concerns, should we lower our expectations and requirements of our kids and decide we will be satisfied with a substandard education?"
Buttars, who also suggested that 11th grade could be optional, told subcommittee members that Utah Valley University President Matthew Holland is a proponent of "accelerated graduation," as Buttars calls his 12th-grade proposal. But when contacted Monday by The Tribune , Holland said he has not endorsed the idea and declined comment.

Commissioner of Higher Education William Sederburg, meanwhile, holds an opinion that is "diametrically" opposed to Buttars', although he agrees too many high school seniors coast.

"The critical need in Utah is to make a serious 12th grade with college preparatory classes," Sederburg said. "There's a lot of money that can be saved by doing it right. You could save money on all the remedial math and English classes."
Buttars likened education subsidies to picking taxpayers' pockets and denounced the Legislature's use of one-time money to bail out education year after year. That not only fails to solve the state's budget problems, he said, but further obligates Utah to the federal government. Buttars plans to formalize his proposal next week, along with another that would eliminate busing for urban high schools, which would generate $15 million in savings.

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Story

LOL!

I say this to all my co workers, if I ever move back to Utah my kids will go to private school there.

The public ed system isn't the best there (It's not the worst either) but I look at the education my kids are getting here in Clarence Center, NY and there is major difference.

[JonInMiddleGA]

To some extent the guy probably has a point but unless the power of the teacher's union in Utah is dramatically different than other places I'm more familiar with then he's got about as much chance of getting this passed as I have of being elected Pope while monkeys fly out of my butt.

[JPhillips]

I don't mind looking at restructuring HS education for educational reasons, but cutting 12th grade for budgetary reasons is a terrible idea.

[Dutch]

Maybe they could combine kindergarten and 1st grade together. Parents are sending their kids to school a year later anyway these days.

[Mustang]

12th grade for me was a waste of time. I had already enlisted in the Air Force and I could have graduated at the half way point, but because my Mom didn't want me to, I went the entire year and ended up skipping half of my classes in the 2nd semester except for World History which was the only one I needed.

I would agree though, restructure for educational reasons and not to save money.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Maybe they could combine kindergarten and 1st grade together. Parents are sending their kids to school a year later anyway these days.

Huh? We didn't start until I was 5 (back in the 70's), now Georgia starts at 4 and the optional programs (combination pre-pre-k and glorified state funded daycare) start at 3.

[lungs]

If 12th grade is a wasted year and they use that reason to eliminate it, soon 11th grade will be a wasted year also.

Senior-itis will always be senior-itis whether its in the 11th year or 12th year.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by lungs

Senior-itis will always be senior-itis whether its in the 11th year or 12th year.

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't believe senioritis has anything to do with the "wasted year" component of it.

It struck me as more about the reality that much of 12th grade seems to be spent on either AP classes (and the corresponding chance to save college time & money for individuals at the expense of the state) or on classes that do little to better prepare marginal students for college or wasting time on college prep classes for students that will never (or should never) waste a minute of their time in a college classroom or is simply taxpayer funded daycare for teenagers.

[Young Drachma]

My biggest problem with this (quite possibly, my only real opposition) is the way laws are shaped in this country. You're not an adult until you're 18, so it seems setting kids loose a year or two early when parents are still subsidizing them and yet, they're note legally able to do much in the status quo...it'd cause all sorts of issues that I doubt society is prepared for.

That said, universities and community colleges could use this as an innovative way to increase enrollment and funding (public ones, you know) because so many of them are offering remedial courses anyway, that it would allow them to siphon some of the lower level students who might then transfer or stay; but it might give high achievers a chance to pursue something they want to do a lot faster, too.

Canada's system is somewhat instructive, in that, until 2003, Ontario actually had 13 grades (which was phased out due to budget cuts and to make them more in-line with the rest of the continent) and Quebec still does end HS with 11th grade, but you still have to do a year of community college (or two years if you go to a Quebec one) to get into university, you can't get into university with a Quebec HS diploma alone.

I prefer early college programs that allow high achievers to get out of HS at grade 10, start community college after that and graduate what would be 12th grade with an associates degree. But that's not a model I think I'd favor for everyone.

[molson]

I really don't know if this is a good idea, but Utah has definitely been something of an innovator in creating a more efficient state government. Their 4-day government work day has worked out really well.

[SportsDino]

Replace the 12th year with full trade classes or college prep, perhaps with the trade path being a precursor to an actual job or internship. Maybe require some basic life courses (like home finance) to round out both. Would be nice to get future auto mechanics for instance to be getting experiences and connections with a shop looking for trainees, instead of wasting everyone's time distracting college prep.

[tyketime]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I don't mind looking at restructuring HS education for educational reasons, but cutting 12th grade for budgetary reasons is a terrible idea.

As the US continues to slip further & further back in overall (The United States is no longer the world leader in secondary education, according to the rankings of an international organization. The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development places the United States 18th among the 36 nations examined.), taking the cheap/easy way out again shows our misplaced priorities.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

To some extent the guy probably has a point but unless the power of the teacher's union in Utah is dramatically different than other places I'm more familiar with then he's got about as much chance of getting this passed as I have of being elected Pope while monkeys fly out of my butt.

I didn't know you were even catholic

In think the more practical idea, as mentioned by Dutch is to look at the starting point. I understand Kindergarten is meant to be an assimilation process, but do kids really benefit from spending half a day playing with play dough and taking a nap?

You could alter first grade to include more of the socialization skills Kindgergarten teaches, along with starting the basic educational foundation and then ramp things up in second grade. I would think that would save more money, since there are many more elementary schools than high schools.

12th grade should be all about college prep and transitioning into the "real" world and eliminating it won't help kids IMO. Especially in Utah, where high school would only be 2 years if they did that since 9th graders attend middle school.

To piggyback on what Macro said about the Utah educational system. I was a bad kid in 9th grade and was stuck in arts and crafts as an elective that year, which I hated. The teacher only made the experience worse, so me and several others pretty much made his life hell. At the end of the year he called 4 of us up and told us he was going to fail us the final semester......unless we ditched his class for the final 2 weeks and if we did he would pass us. We did, he get his word and didn't even mark us absent and we passed. As a dick head 14 year old I thought this was cool, as an adult I wish he would have failed me so I had to make up that elective credit in high School and learned a lesson for being a punk. Again it is not a bad system, just needs some tweaking.

[JPhillips]

A well run kindergarten program has proven educational benefits that increase chances of success throughout schooling. Cuts in early education, when children are most able to learn is a very bad idea.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

You could alter first grade to include more of the socialization skills Kindgergarten teaches, along with starting the basic educational foundation and then ramp things up in second grade. I would think that would save more money, since there are many more elementary schools than high schools.

We're probably getting into a serious mileage variance by state but if anything, the foundation items in the early grades are one of the places where Georgia often struggles vs the rest of the country. Basically we're already not doing enough to get concepts across soon enough so I'm not sure that cutting into the foundation time would be something that's ultimately successful.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

We're probably getting into a serious mileage variance by state but if anything, the foundation items in the early grades are one of the places where Georgia often struggles vs the rest of the country. Basically we're already not doing enough to get concepts across soon enough so I'm not sure that cutting into the foundation time would be something that's ultimately successful.

That's an interesting viewpoint, since one would think that the first 2 years of school would be the easiset to implement uniform standards, that could be implemented across the country. what specifically do you see as the biggest issue in Georgia?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Huh? We didn't start until I was 5 (back in the 70's), now Georgia starts at 4 and the optional programs (combination pre-pre-k and glorified state funded daycare) start at 3.

Hmmm, I have a Sophomore who is 15 and is one of the youngest of his grade and a Freshman who is 14 and is also one of the youngest...most are a year up on them. They started off in California.

EDIT: And they are in a DoDDS school system which means it's student populaton comes from schooling started in all 50 states.

[molson]

Originally Posted by rowech

It's because most of the other countries don't waste their resources on students who are not college bound type students. They make those decisions on kids very early and don't waste the time/money if they don't fit that mold.

I don't know what they do in other countries but that's definitely an issue in this country. We need to leave more children behind. We need to find the best and brightest and invest in them, especially when those kids are in poor, shitty public schools.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

what specifically do you see as the biggest issue in Georgia?

An excess of children of stupid parents maybe? And the dumbing down of standards to accommodate them.

Here's a longer example of what I'm referring to, maybe it'll give you a better idea of what I was concerned about. I'll use a personal example but our experience is very much what I hear consistently from around the state.

My son is currently in 6th grade at one of the consistently highest performing private schools in the state. He arrived there in fifth grade after two years at a good but lesser performing private school. When he arrived we found that he was roughly 1-2 years behind his new peers in math specifically.

Go back to his most recent previous school, the good but not great one. He arrived there in 3rd grade coming from a so-so private school where he'd been since pre-K. Upon arrival we found that he was roughly 1-2 years behind his new peers in math specifically and to lesser extents in science & foreign language.

Now go back to the school where he spent Pre-K through Grade 2. They were doing work that wasn't seen until as high as 5th grade in the public school.

Now go back to where he is now, by pretty much every standard a high performing private school in not only the state but in the region. Our high performers, that routinely head off to every Ivy school, to the service academies, to Cal Tech & MIT, and to universities around the world ... those same kids test out to the 50th percentile when given exams that are the norm for private schools in the northeast. In other words, even our best are no better than average compared to what would ostensibly be their peers in terms of socio-economic demographics. So just how bad off are the ones they're literally years ahead of from the very beginning of the education process?

[chesapeake]

I don't fault the guy for trying to think outside of the box -- even if I don't agree with his idea. Politicians don't do enough of that kind of thinking because of the likely political fallout.

I think some in this thread have touched upon a fundamental problem with the American education system. It does not differentiate between kids that will go to 4-year colleges, kids that will go to 2-year or trade schools and kids that will likely pursue employment right after graduation.

A number of school districts I have worked with over the years have tried to tackle this problem and have made significant improvements in their vocational education programs to try and better serve kids in the latter two categories; however, they are a lot more expensive than traditional academic programs. I haven't seen one that has been able to finance a really robust program as yet.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Hmmm, I have a Sophomore who is 15 and is one of the youngest of his grade and a Freshman who is 14 and is also one of the youngest...most are a year up on them. They started off in California.

EDIT: And they are in a DoDDS school system which means it's student populaton comes from schooling started in all 50 states.

FWIW - I had a similar reaction to Jon. My wife was a Kindergarten teacher, now a reading specialist. Kids start Kindergarten at 5 generally, but sometimes 4 - RARELY 6. The "date cut-off" in VA is the same as it was when I was in school here.

I think the idea of cutting K and combining it with 1st is a terrible idea. I wonder if some people thinking that are thinking of K when we went to school. If so, it's an entirely different animal now. K now is basically what 1st was when we were in school.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by rowech

I've constantly said that 11th and 12th grade need to be reformed. Mandatory education up through 10th grade I am fine with. At that point, we should evaluate students for wehther they really need to continue in that kind of academic track. Instead 11th and 12th should be purely for college bound students.

I would agree, especially if we bring back vocational education as an option for those other tracks. Some kids are ready for a career at McDonald's right out of 10th, others could go to a plumbing / electrical / mechanical trade school from there, while 11th/12th remain college prep. Might even have the advantage of doing away with the junior college / community college programs in places like Florida where they slow down regular university education to let the juco kids catch up, if they could instead focus more heavily on those kids in 11th/12th.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't believe senioritis has anything to do with the "wasted year" component of it.

It struck me as more about the reality that much of 12th grade seems to be spent on either AP classes (and the corresponding chance to save college time & money for individuals at the expense of the state) or on classes that do little to better prepare marginal students for college or wasting time on college prep classes for students that will never (or should never) waste a minute of their time in a college classroom or is simply taxpayer funded daycare for teenagers.

you're hilarious. i don't think i know anyone else who would call AP classes "a chance to save college time & money for individuals at the expense of the state."

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by wade moore

I wonder if some people thinking that are thinking of K when we went to school. If so, it's an entirely different animal now. K now is basically what 1st was when we were in school.

I have to admit that I am totally out of touch there, since by Kindergarten experience was identifying shapes, playing with Lincoln logs, eating a snack of Carrot sticks and milk and taking a nap before going home at noon. It hadn't changed a whole lot when my kids started either.

I can see the problems at the 12th grade level however and it varies wildly from district to district here in AZ. The complexity of the two districts I have coached in is like night and day. Seniors where I coach now (I should use past tense since I am retiring from coaching, but not in full acceptance, LOL) take courses that compare to the standard sophomore ciriculum in my old district. We had a player who will be graduatiing this year with a 4.72 GPA! Granted, he is very smart, but the top 5 percentile at the other school was in the 4.20 to 4.30 range and I am sure those kids were every bit as intelligent.

I guess my point was (again without knowing the foundation as it exists now) that to me it makes more sense to start with more national standardization and cut a year there, then it does to cut a year at the end. By the time kids are seniors, that gap that exists district to district, state to state with what they learn at the beginning, has become a chasm by the time they graduate.

For the record I don't think the education process here should be cut anywhere, but if it happened, I think it is easier to do when you are introducing kids to education vs preparing them for life/college or whatever they choose to do after high school. Take those funds you can save and make 12th grade a combination of things. College prep/vocational training/life skills.

The motivation to take advantage of this type system and implement the benefits lies in the home, but at least the opportunity will be provided.

[Young Drachma]

Community colleges do a great job of providing an educational resource to non-traditional students in a lot of communities. While more and more are focusing on trying to recruit traditional age students for various reasons, their main audience is still largely the non-traditional age student who without it's programs would never realistically have an opportunity to pursue a post-secondary education.

So I don't think phasing those programs out ought to be part of any solution.

Touching earlier on the point someone made about unions, if this has an effect of diluting the power of K-12 teachers unions, then I'm all for it. Not that there aren't unions at universities and community colleges, but they don't wield nearly the power that their counterparts at the lower levels do.

An investment in vocational education would be a valuable thing, but...it's not sexy and thus, no one seems to want to invest money in it. But our country suffers in the process.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I have to admit that I am totally out of touch there, since by Kindergarten experience was identifying shapes, playing with Lincoln logs, eating a snack of Carrot sticks and milk and taking a nap before going home at noon. It hadn't changed a whole lot when my kids started either.

I can see the problems at the 12th grade level however and it varies wildly from district to district here in AZ. The complexity of the two districts I have coached in is like night and day. Seniors where I coach now (I should use past tense since I am retiring from coaching, but not in full acceptance, LOL) take courses that compare to the standard sophomore ciriculum in my old district. We had a player who will be graduatiing this year with a 4.72 GPA! Granted, he is very smart, but the top 5 percentile at the other school was in the 4.20 to 4.30 range and I am sure those kids were every bit as intelligent.

I guess my point was (again without knowing the foundation as it exists now) that to me it makes more sense to start with more national standardization and cut a year there, then it does to cut a year at the end. By the time kids are seniors, that gap that exists district to district, state to state with what they learn at the beginning, has become a chasm by the time they graduate.

For the record I don't think the education process here should be cut anywhere, but if it happened, I think it is easier to do when you are introducing kids to education vs preparing them for life/college or whatever they choose to do after high school. Take those funds you can save and make 12th grade a combination of things. College prep/vocational training/life skills.

The motivation to take advantage of this type system and implement the benefits lies in the home, but at least the opportunity will be provided.

Yeah, I just think you're way off base here. If you don't get the basics, you're screwed for the rest of your life.

Kindergarten in Virginia is way different now than when I was there. I don't know the exact specifics, but you have to be able to do 1 to 100, know the entire alphabet lowers and capitals, be able to read to some extent, etc, etc. It's not just shapes and colors anymore.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by molson

I really don't know if this is a good idea, but Utah has definitely been something of an innovator in creating a more efficient state government. Their 4-day government work day has worked out really well.

I don't know about you, but I really don't want to work 4 days in one work day.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I have to admit that I am totally out of touch there, since by Kindergarten experience was identifying shapes, playing with Lincoln logs, eating a snack of Carrot sticks and milk and taking a nap before going home at noon. It hadn't changed a whole lot when my kids started either.

I can see the problems at the 12th grade level however and it varies wildly from district to district here in AZ. The complexity of the two districts I have coached in is like night and day. Seniors where I coach now (I should use past tense since I am retiring from coaching, but not in full acceptance, LOL) take courses that compare to the standard sophomore ciriculum in my old district. We had a player who will be graduatiing this year with a 4.72 GPA! Granted, he is very smart, but the top 5 percentile at the other school was in the 4.20 to 4.30 range and I am sure those kids were every bit as intelligent.

I guess my point was (again without knowing the foundation as it exists now) that to me it makes more sense to start with more national standardization and cut a year there, then it does to cut a year at the end. By the time kids are seniors, that gap that exists district to district, state to state with what they learn at the beginning, has become a chasm by the time they graduate.

For the record I don't think the education process here should be cut anywhere, but if it happened, I think it is easier to do when you are introducing kids to education vs preparing them for life/college or whatever they choose to do after high school. Take those funds you can save and make 12th grade a combination of things. College prep/vocational training/life skills.

The motivation to take advantage of this type system and implement the benefits lies in the home, but at least the opportunity will be provided.

Again, there's plenty of research that shows the value of early education. Brains are most elastic in the first few years of life and after that learning gets progressively more difficult. If the basics of education and a love of learning aren't instilled early there's not much you can do to narrow that gap in 12th grade.

[SportsDino]

I would consider AP courses as a way to save personal money at the expense of the state.

Lets see, spend 70-80 per test (I think) and avoid an entire semester of college work on a subject? My $400-$500 total investment in AP (well not my money, my mother, who didn't like the idea at the time) ended up being worth about a whole year of a college education (I was capable of graduating after three years, I stayed longer to take more advanced junk and line up my PhD run).

Sure, some of that burden gets passed on to the high school, except they would have had to pay a teacher to babysit me for all those hours anyway at great expense. However much it costs to run an AP program, as far as net benefit for education it actually is a fiscal power move. Less debt for college students, higher efficiency of all that wasted time in high school, less time in college taking remedial garbage at much higher cost than what you could have done in high school. Net win for just about everyone.


As for public versus private. As a person who suffered through the prison... er public school system, if you are smart and strong willed, you can do just fine. If you are smart and average, you will very likely be dumbed down by the sheer number of morons pulling you back. If you are super-genius and strong willed, you will make 90% of the private schoolers also look like chumps, but you will still be behind the best private schools (or public schools) when you show up in the classroom. Overall, basic talent dominates over accumulated knowledge, but even switching public schools as a kid I went from super-genius, to 1 year behind at the better public school. I caught up and surpassed (1 year head) in just a year, but the quality of students around you does end up playing a role. When I spend most of the third grade playing on the computer or hiding in the reading nook we had because I was done with the entire days work in an hour? Or being at a better school where it takes me three hours to get all the work done before i goof off?

The better school simply had higher calibre students who don't slow down the speed demons. They also have a lot less social maladjustments as well (fighting, drugs, disruptions during lectures, etc....)

I've seen people who had home environments where their parents not only don't give a crap, but actively work against intelligence in their kids. These kids get sent off in the morning as little heat seeking missiles of negativity, and until they learn their parents are loser garbage they bring down as much as they can. Its a question of their own willpower whether they turn it around (some did, some did not... and it wasn't always the most intelligent who succeeded either).

If I were to pick where to invest, invest early... by 12th grade most of them are just thinking about the next time they are going to get laid or party anyway. If they are somewhat smart early on, hopefully by the time they get to that point they think about getting laid and partying, but have already finished their homework for the day out of habit. If anything learning habits are more important than acquired knowledge... transitioning to college I had some pain because I had zero discipline from never facing a challenge. But because I was just used to doing some things naturally, I got into the flow of things with little adjustment. If you put all sorts of money at me at the tail-end of high school I wouldn't have done any better in college, I picked up the natural traits for the basics back in elementary and just kept applying them.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I don't know about you, but I really don't want to work 4 days in one work day.

Well...we still need to invent a time contraction machine to pull it off but we're on the brink of it.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I don't know about you, but I really don't want to work 4 days in one work day.

That's why America is falling behind.

[King of New York]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Yeah, I just think you're way off base here. If you don't get the basics, you're screwed for the rest of your life.

Kindergarten in Virginia is way different now than when I was there. I don't know the exact specifics, but you have to be able to do 1 to 100, know the entire alphabet lowers and capitals, be able to read to some extent, etc, etc. It's not just shapes and colors anymore.

+1

I am amazed at the sort of work that kindergartners do these days, at least in this part of Virginia--and first graders, second graders, and so on. My kindergartner has already done more homework than I ever had to do before I took AP classes as a senior in high school. Granted, that might just be a function of school districts rather than generational change.

Rethinking 11th and 12th grade makes much more sense to me than does collapsing Kindergarten and First Grade.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by wade moore

FWIW - I had a similar reaction to Jon. My wife was a Kindergarten teacher, now a reading specialist. Kids start Kindergarten at 5 generally, but sometimes 4 - RARELY 6. The "date cut-off" in VA is the same as it was when I was in school here.

I'm not sure where all these "old" high school kids are coming from, I'm guessing not Virginia and Georgia.

I think the idea of cutting K and combining it with 1st is a terrible idea. I wonder if some people thinking that are thinking of K when we went to school. If so, it's an entirely different animal now. K now is basically what 1st was when we were in school.

Well, I'm certainly not advocating we do this. Just generating discussion on better options if anybody had to do it.

In order, obviously I'd prefer...

1. K-12
2. 1-12
3. K-11

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by King of New York

Rethinking 11th and 12th grade makes much more sense to me than does collapsing Kindergarten and First Grade.

I'd say that rethinking K and 1st grade would make more sense than collapsing 11th and 12th grade.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by King of New York

+1

I am amazed at the sort of work that kindergartners do these days, at least in this part of Virginia--and first graders, second graders, and so on. My kindergartner has already done more homework than I ever had to do before I took AP classes as a senior in high school. Granted, that might just be a function of school districts rather than generational change.

Well, it's probably a little of both. You and I are of course talking about the same school district, but much of what they are doing is to drive to the state SOL standards. (For those reading, there are Virginia SOL standards for K, even though testing does not start until 3rd)

[sterlingice]

Utahns? Isn't that missing a vowel somewhere?

SI

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Yeah, I just think you're way off base here. If you don't get the basics, you're screwed for the rest of your life.

Kindergarten in Virginia is way different now than when I was there. I don't know the exact specifics, but you have to be able to do 1 to 100, know the entire alphabet lowers and capitals, be able to read to some extent, etc, etc. It's not just shapes and colors anymore.

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Again, there's plenty of research that shows the value of early education. Brains are most elastic in the first few years of life and after that learning gets progressively more difficult. If the basics of education and a love of learning aren't instilled early there's not much you can do to narrow that gap in 12th grade.

I agree with you both and maybe I am not making my case eloquently enough. I saying those first 2-3 years where you learn the basics need to be more consistent and looking at things from my perspective (the end of public education) it is painfully obvious there is a huge gap that began in those early years, which to me is where the process is broken in some areas of the country.

Hell I see it when kids get to 9th grade, the work ethic, expectations and commitment are not there and that started from an early age, not when they hit puberty. I had freshmen players this year ineligibile because they failed ceramics, phys ed (now called wellness) and spanish (which the kid already spoke)

Jphilips, there should not be a gap to close in the 12th grade and the fact that there is illustrates the problem, and that problem stems from grade school and as I also mentioned in the home. The purpose of your last year of High School IMO should be to get you ready for the next step of your life, whether that be College, a contruction job, or joining the Military. (Not taking 2 electives and then leaving campus at 10:30 to go to your job at Taco Bell or whatever)

Overall we are on the same page, I guess our disagreement stems from how and when to start and how and when to finish.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Dutch

In order, obviously I'd prefer...

1. K-12
2. 1-12
3. K-11

I would agree

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

you're hilarious. i don't think i know anyone else who would call AP classes "a chance to save college time & money for individuals at the expense of the state."

{shrug} They are what they are. It's what they were when I was in HS back in the medieval times, it's what they are now except that it's much more prevalent today.

And yet somehow the average for a "four year degree" is now somewhere in the 5 to 5.5 year range, go figure.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

{shrug} They are what they are. It's what they were when I was in HS back in the medieval times, it's what they are now except that it's much more prevalent today.

in your opinion

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Hmmm, I have a Sophomore who is 15 and is one of the youngest of his grade and a Freshman who is 14 and is also one of the youngest...most are a year up on them. They started off in California.

EDIT: And they are in a DoDDS school system which means it's student populaton comes from schooling started in all 50 states.

The military angle might be the culprit here. Most kids I know that re-took a grade did it when switching schools, so a lot of kids/parents may have decided to repeat a grade did so during one of their moves (presumably to a harder school system).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

in your opinion

What the hell else would you call it? It is what it is. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather see the money spent on that end of the spectrum but it still is what it is.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

What the hell else would you call it? It is what it is. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather see the money spent on that end of the spectrum but it still is what it is.

i'd call it "providing an appropriate challenge for high-achieving or potentially high-achieving students in order to keep them engaged with school and make them more well-rounded and better-prepared students."

(and yes, there are kids in AP classes who shouldn't be, but that's largely dependent on how stringent the school systems are about admission to AP classes)

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

in your opinion

It's a lot different in Georgia than in good Mass HS's like Wellesley and CC. At these, almost all the kids are going on to 4-year college, and almost nobody ever goes off to college early because they are surrounded by intelligent peers and still learning. But in large parts of the rest of the country the smart kids are getting out early or taking all AP classes as they separate from their fellow students who aren't going on to college. That's how you end up with these ridiculous 4.7 and 5.2 GPA's - and the kid with a 3.2 from CC or Wellesley is generally much better prepared as a college freshman.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

It's a lot different in Georgia than in good Mass HS's like Wellesley and CC. At these, almost all the kids are going on to 4-year college, and almost nobody ever goes off to college early because they are surrounded by intelligent peers and still learning. But in large parts of the rest of the country the smart kids are getting out early or taking all AP classes as they separate from their fellow students who aren't going on to college. That's how you end up with these ridiculous 4.7 and 5.2 GPA's - and the kid with a 3.2 from CC or Wellesley is generally much better prepared as a college freshman.

exactly. which is why the blanket stereotyping is harmful, and why i'll continue to contest it whenever i have the opportunity and the time to. there's no one single solution that should be applied as a "blanket solution."

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i'd call it "providing an appropriate challenge for high-achieving or potentially high-achieving students in order to keep them engaged with school and make them more well-rounded and better-prepared students."

LOL, naive much? Take away the college credit opportunity and see how many students take them.

What you're describing (at least here) are now usually Honors courses at least in the schools I'm familiar with.

And apparently, after a quick Google, in schools I'm not familiar with as well.
Take a look at this description from Tamalpais Union High School District in Larkspur, California.

What is the difference between an AP and an Honors class?
An AP (ADVANCED PLACEMENT) class is a course designed to prepare students to take the College Board-sponsored Advanced Placement (AP) exam. These national curricula are developed by both high school and college teachers under the auspices of the College Board. Most universities award college credit based on AP exam scores.

HONORS COURSES are developed locally by district teachers to meet the needs of talented students. An Honors class parallels the curriculum offered in the corresponding regular class, but may cover additional topics or some topics in greater depth. Honors courses may be organized as separate classes, or as extra projects or seminars supplementing a regular course.

Interestingly (but not surprisingly) I'm now hearing about students foregoing AP for Honors because {gasp} some admissions are requiring the latter (and in an amazing coincidence getting a chance to save themselves some of the lost butts in seats for lower level courses as well as some more money for themselves).

[DaddyTorgo]

some schools combine AP and honors. In my school if you wanted to take Honors US History it was AP US History for example.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

In my school if you wanted to take Honors US History it was AP US History for example.

Yep, and in my school some people wore parachute pants back in the day

Sorry, couldn't resist.

What you're describing does still exist, especially in some subjects (although it varies from system to system). The aforementioned Wellesley HS, which I looked up after it was mentioned in the thread, actually still does that style completely best I could tell from trying to skim through their 120ish page curriculum guide.

edit to add: One of the new metrics for measuring school performance, new at least in that I've only started seeing it used in the mainstream media in the past couple of years, is the percentage of the enrollment taking AP classes. Meaning that we'll see even more students pushed into those regardless of what would serve them best.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I didn't go to 12th grade, and look how I turned out. Keep the 12th grade.