Text Sim Developer's Blog

[21C]

Clay Dreslough, the developer of Baseball Mogul, has started a blog where he has been giving some insights on running a text sim business. It makes for interesting reading as he talks about revenues from his Mogul products. I'm sure a lot of it applies to other indie developers.

You can see it here.

[AgustusM]

great find - interesting stuff

[Celeval]

Good stuff to read. Thanks for the headsup.

[Solecismic]

That's a good read. Clay has built quite a bit there - his sales figures are amazing, something I could never approach without retail, and probably not even with retail exposure.

I've had the opportunity to meet Clay, and also Marc Vaughan and Tom Tippett over the years. I've enjoyed those meetings, and appreciate how much we all have in common - that desire to get the sim right, to frame the experience for our respective target audiences (Mogul has a broader appeal).

I agree with him completely about the competition aspect. A successful game brings customers to the marketplace. It gets people thinking about text sims, it gets them on message boards where other products are discussed. Eventually, people will try other products. They will be more likely to try other products if they've had a positive experience in the genre.

[ScottVib]

Excellent blog, just like Clay's competition blog says FOF (actually the demo of FOF2 and the first EA Sports version) was actually the gateway product for me to move onto BBMogul and eventually the other games I play.

[Radii]

Very interesting reading, thanks for posting this.

[Dutch]

I just bought BBM2007 today, I'm doing the "one-pitch" route which was a favorite of mine back in the old Tony LaRussa 3 days. So far so good.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I just bought BBM2007 today, I'm doing the "one-pitch" route which was a favorite of mine back in the old Tony LaRussa 3 days. So far so good.

I've come close to buying this on several occasions. I'd be interested in hearing if you notice if the AI moves prospects up to the majors when they are ready or lets them languish in the minors even when fully developed.

[stevew]

100k units? Seriously, that seems extremely high.

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by stevew

100k units? Seriously, that seems extremely high.

Agreed.

[KWhit]

Very interesting blog so far. It's hard to believe he only gets 2.87 per game for the ones that sell in retail stores.

It's also hard to believe that he sells around 100,000 copies in a good year.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by stevew

100k units? Seriously, that seems extremely high.

Then again, BM is in Wal-Mart stores. They have over 3,000 U.S. locations. Thirty copies per store? Seems like a lot, but I'll bet it's plausible. Wal-Mart customers will buy almost anything.

And I don't mean that as a knock against Clay and BM -- I mean that as a knock against Wal-Mart customers.

[Mac Howard]

I don't know if I've read the entire blog but I didn't see anything about the difficulty of retaining creative control over the game which, in my experience, is something that is always a problem for the independant developer. That's particularly true of text sims which retailers consider have little direct appeal to their customers and like to see "put right". Did I miss something?

His experience with BM 2000 - when his royalties didn't appear - is also something that corresponds with my experience of other developers who have been similarly ripped off.

And suing a retailer? That's another experience I wish I hadn't had

It's a tough life as an independant developer but I can recommend it for the lifestyle if not the financial returns

[stevew]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Then again, BM is in Wal-Mart stores. They have over 3,000 U.S. locations. Thirty copies per store? Seems like a lot, but I'll bet it's plausible. Wal-Mart customers will buy almost anything.

And I don't mean that as a knock against Clay and BM -- I mean that as a knock against Wal-Mart customers.

Yeah, i considered the math on that. I guess it's possible.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Then again, BM is in Wal-Mart stores. They have over 3,000 U.S. locations. Thirty copies per store? Seems like a lot, but I'll bet it's plausible. Wal-Mart customers will buy almost anything.

And I don't mean that as a knock against Clay and BM -- I mean that as a knock against poor people.

Fixed it for you.

[Shaun Sullivan]

Wow, great blog.

A bit depressing for me considering PureSim's sales numbers To me, the key is retail regardless of royalties, and I know Clay realizes this too. With retail, the games are exposed to hundreds of thousands of folks that never would have seen them. Even if 2 or 3 people pick up the game at each Wal Mart you are still talking 6-figure returns, not to mention maket share and the chance that they'll buy future products direct (online) with much higher royalties. Look at what "Season Ticket Baseball" did for Markus.

I also totally agree with Clay's take on the fact that we all benefit in the genre when a given game of the text sim ilk has a hit.

I will be following his blog with great interest -- I think I can learn a lot.

[Dutch]

The Manager Mode in Baseball Mogul is very fun.

[cubboyroy1826]

Very good stuff.

[yabanci]

I was in Circuit City the other day and saw BM2007 on the shelf. If he's got the game in every Walmart, Circuit City, and similar stores (Target, Best Buy maybe?), sales of 100k wouldn't be surprising at all.

[sovereignstar]

5,980 members at the Baseball Mogul boards. Wal-Mart customers don't have internet access?

[yabanci]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

5,980 members at the Baseball Mogul boards. Wal-Mart customers don't have internet access?

mmkay

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by yabanci

I was in Circuit City the other day and saw BM2007 on the shelf. If he's got the game in every Walmart, Circuit City, and similar stores (Target, Best Buy maybe?), sales of 100k wouldn't be surprising at all.

I've seen various versions of BM in Best Buy and Target.

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by yabanci

mmkay

nice link, dickhead

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by yabanci

I was in Circuit City the other day and saw BM2007 on the shelf. If he's got the game in every Walmart, Circuit City, and similar stores (Target, Best Buy maybe?), sales of 100k wouldn't be surprising at all.

I'm very happy for Clay if he's achieving 100k sales with BM2007, with text-sims currently being a 'niche' market in America its very much all for one and one for all imho ... one game has to 'break' the mainstream before any of them have a chance to make large sales imho (heck I'm not proud I've been cheering for EA's American Football titles in the hopes that'd do it ).

PS> With regards to recieved revenue for a small developer from retail sales bear in mind that its always only a small percentage of the price that the retailer purchases the game at NOT its eventual sale price. For instance in the UK generally stores purchase games at approximately £18 (rough as I don't have figures to hand) and the royalty is a percentage of that NOT the £29.99 price you see in the stores.
I'm not certain of the 'mark-up' which games recieve in America but its possible the figures given are wholly accurate (although if they are and he's shifting the units indicated I'd suggest renegotiating somewhat next year ).

[yabanci]

Interesting post. I wonder who the alleged guilty party is. There are only so many competitors in the baseball text sim niche...

Cheating in Games
July 20th, 2006

I recently found out directly from a game reviewer that someone attempted to bribe him/her (and/or his/her employer) to not publish a positive review of Baseball Mogul 2007. They turned it down.

(Please excuse the vagueness of the above description — I’m trying to keep it anonymous. But based on some other rumors I’ve heard, I’m 95% sure his/her story is true).

I’m basically speechless so I don’t have much to add. All I can say is that if you thought there were underhanded things going on in the game industry, you were right. And if you’re a member of the media, please stick to your guns like they did. Integrity isn’t always rewarded, but the game developers and game buyers of the world appreciate it!

http://www.sportsmogul.com/wordpress/

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by yabanci

Interesting post. I wonder who the alleged guilty party is. There are only so many competitors in the baseball text sim niche...

No source? This "revelation" was posted on the offended party's site?

Total and utter lying bullshit.

[Schmidty]

Dola.

Not that I care, of course. I am no company's fanboy.

[Schmidty]

Except for Dr. Scholl's. My arches suck.

Sorry for the dolas, but I just had to be truthful.

[ThunderingHERD]

I really have a hard time believing that. Why won't the source just come out and make it public if they were offered a bribe? This is a terrible way to handle the situation and I'd be really pissed if I were Markus or Shaun. Assuming they didn't do it.

[FBPro]

BM=BS? FFT

[st.cronin]

deja vu?

[SirFozzie]

So now no review that is the slightest bit negative about BM can be posted, because then suckers who saw this would believe they took a bribe. Well played. Extremely slimy, but well played.

If you think SI Games/Matrix Games would pull something like this.. then you probably think the Moon Landing was faked.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

So now no review that is the slightest bit negative about BM can be posted, because then suckers who saw this would believe they took a bribe. Well played. Extremely slimy, but well played.

If you think SI Games/Matrix Games would pull something like this.. then you probably think the Moon Landing was faked.

Yep.

This makes BM look really shitty (heh!). I think people should let them know how completely corrupt this makes them seem.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

deja vu?

I am feeling that same deja vu. Can't quite place it though.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Yep.

This makes BM look really shitty (heh!). I think people should let them know how completely corrupt this makes them seem.

Exactly. Don't throw innuendo out there, that's nearly as bad as what you're accusing "other companies" of, except instead of fighting it out in a computer magazine (which is a dying industry, if you ask me), you're throwing mud in the most pernicious of markets, the Court of Public Opinion.

So, Clay and folks. You have names? Name em. Notice how they say they're 95% sure this is real? Well, 100% of stats made up on the fly are pulled out of someone's ass.

[Franklinnoble]

Wait... I'm just reading this thread for the first time.

So, is it a great blog, or total B.S.? I can't tell. Should I bother reading it now?

[Franklinnoble]

Ok... now I know he's lying:

I keep in touch with Jim Gindin, creator of Front Office Football, about what games we’re working on and when we plan to release them.

Bah! Jim's release dates are the most closely guarded secrets this side of the Kennedy assassination.

[Johnny Slick]

I don't buy the accusation that Shaun or Markus or one of their cronies tried to bribe someone to cover up a good review of Mogul. I've talked with all those guys and they just seem to too invested in their work to piss it all away with one scandal. And yes, if word ever got out that this was true and who it was, it would be a scandal, and I think it would be big enough to effectively kill the game.

The text community is too close. There are rivalries to be sure, but most of us have, I am sure, bought at least 2 of the sports games right now and a sizeable minority purchase virtually everything semi-promising. There's way more to be lost with allegations of dirty pool than to be gained by trying to get folks to choose one game over another because at this point the majority of text-sim fans don't choose one game over another so much.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Johnny Slick

I don't buy the accusation that Shaun or Markus or one of their cronies tried to bribe someone to cover up a good review of Mogul. I've talked with all those guys and they just seem to too invested in their work to piss it all away with one scandal. And yes, if word ever got out that this was true and who it was, it would be a scandal, and I think it would be big enough to effectively kill the game.

The text community is too close. There are rivalries to be sure, but most of us have, I am sure, bought at least 2 of the sports games right now and a sizeable minority purchase virtually everything semi-promising. There's way more to be lost with allegations of dirty pool than to be gained by trying to get folks to choose one game over another because at this point the majority of text-sim fans don't choose one game over another so much.

Bah, that's all well and good, but if you're going to rake the whole fucking industry in the mud, then give a fucking source.

If you don't, you are either a giant fucking vagina, or a giant fucking liar.

[Schmidty]

Dola. That's a lot of fucking.

I think it's obvious that my wife's put of town.

[Johnny Slick]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Bah, that's all well and good, but if you're going to rake the whole fucking industry in the mud, then give a fucking source.

If you don't, you are either a giant fucking vagina, or a giant fucking liar.

Yeah, completely agree. Or at least say which company did it and let them (try to) deny it (if applicable). Granted, you'd still need to pony up the proof.

The more I think about this, the more it hacks me off that Clay Dreslough's not getting more shit for it.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Ok... now I know he's lying:



Bah! Jim's release dates are the most closely guarded secrets this side of the Kennedy assassination.

Maybe there's a super-secret society of good-guy developers?

In all seriousness, having communicated privately a good bit with various people in the text sim world and having developed a pretty significant level of trust with quite sensitive information with some, it wouldn't surprise me a bit to learn that Jim and Clay communicate privately regarding information that would normally be considered "super-sensitive." I find this particularly plausible when I think about the history of Solecismic and Infinite Monkey/Sportsmogul. Remember, they released the first football and baseball text sims within, I think, less a year of each other, and Clay used to post a bit on The Sideline, even before Infinite Monkey had any message board, official or unofficial. Jim and Clay were the only two Americans in this genre for a pretty good while there. Ultimately, Clay STARTED this genre in this country, and Jim wasn't far behind. They were doing different sports, with VERY similar audiences--a HUGE opportunity for the success of one to help the other. They certainly had ample motive to exchange information, ideas, commiserate over the difficulties of the genre, and ultimately to develop a pretty strong level of trust and comfort with one another. I know in my own dealings with various developers that years of demonstrated ability to be trusted with private information has led to deeper levels of trust developing on both sides. [Morgado]shurg[/Morgado]

[ice4277]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Maybe there's a super-secret society of good-guy developers?

In all seriousness, having communicated privately a good bit with various people in the text sim world and having developed a pretty significant level of trust with quite sensitive information with some, it wouldn't surprise me a bit to learn that Jim and Clay communicate privately regarding information that would normally be considered "super-sensitive." I find this particularly plausible when I think about the history of Solecismic and Infinite Monkey/Sportsmogul. Remember, they released the first football and baseball text sims within, I think, less a year of each other, and Clay used to post a bit on The Sideline, even before Infinite Monkey had any message board, official or unofficial. Jim and Clay were the only two Americans in this genre for a pretty good while there. Ultimately, Clay STARTED this genre in this country, and Jim wasn't far behind. They were doing different sports, with VERY similar audiences--a HUGE opportunity for the success of one to help the other. They certainly had ample motive to exchange information, ideas, commiserate over the difficulties of the genre, and ultimately to develop a pretty strong level of trust and comfort with one another. I know in my own dealings with various developers that years of demonstrated ability to be trusted with private information has led to deeper levels of trust developing on both sides. [Morgado]shurg[/Morgado]

Agreed. However, I am still curious as to who supposedly tried to pay off a reviewer.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by ice4277

Agreed. However, I am still curious as to who supposedly tried to pay off a reviewer.

Yeah. He probably shouldn't have put that one out there without evidence and naming names. However, I could see from the reviewer's perspective why they wouldn't want to publicly "out" the offender. The cost of defending from the ensuing lawsuit wouldn't be worth it. I'm assuming, of course, that the offender would have gone through some steps to protect himself and sound vague enough to potentially win a lawsuit. If anyone with any savvy and sense of self-protection wanted to pay off a reviewer, they wouldn't just e-mail him and say, "Hey, I'll pay you $x to give Mogul a bad review, or not to publish a good one." If the person had any brains at all, it would be much more subtle than that, to give themselves the ability to deny their intent later on.

[ice4277]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Yeah. He probably shouldn't have put that one out there without evidence and naming names. However, I could see from the reviewer's perspective why they wouldn't want to publicly "out" the offender. The cost of defending from the ensuing lawsuit wouldn't be worth it. I'm assuming, of course, that the offender would have gone through some steps to protect himself and sound vague enough to potentially win a lawsuit. If anyone with any savvy and sense of self-protection wanted to pay off a reviewer, they wouldn't just e-mail him and say, "Hey, I'll pay you $x to give Mogul a bad review, or not to publish a good one." If the person had any brains at all, it would be much more subtle than that, to give themselves the ability to deny their intent later on.

But then the begs the question, why even bring it up on such a public forum in the first place? It's not as if the offender is going to now get a guilty conscience and confess what they've done.

[Solecismic]

Why are we assuming the alleged culprit is Shaun or Markus? Nowhere in Clay's message does it say it was a text-sim company. It doesn't sound like something either Shaun or Markus would do.

It could be some larger publisher that is trying to break into a wider genre and Clay's position as a small player in the retail market makes him an easy target. I don't know. I haven't heard anything about this.

Having been on Clay's end of a similar "dirty trick," I sympathize, of course. But I did learn that the less people talked about it, the faster it went away.

SkyDog is right. My fellow developers know more about what I'm doing than I can talk about here. The reason? Not necessarily trust. It's that sometimes, changes need to be made late in development, or new distribution opportunities come up. That can change promised features, or even release dates. A fellow developer isn't going to get angry about that - he understands the business end.

It's best not to make promises unless you're wielding a major PR campaign and you need to get as many sales as humanly possible in the first three weeks, or your game is not going to be stocked any more. Without retail and without expensive PR, sales made six months from now count just as much as sales made today. So the negatives of the inevitable broken promises far outweigh the positives of having people look forward to a release date.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by ice4277

But then the begs the question, why even bring it up on such a public forum in the first place? It's not as if the offender is going to now get a guilty conscience and confess what they've done.

Did you miss my first full sentence? "He probably shouldn't have put that one out there without evidence and naming names." That was my only comment about Clay saying it. The rest of my theorizing was about the reviewer.

[ice4277]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Did you miss my first full sentence? "He probably shouldn't have put that one out there without evidence and naming names." That was my only comment about Clay saying it. The rest of my theorizing was about the reviewer.

Heh, actually, I did miss that. Sorry its still early

[Draft Dodger]

don't forget all the fake press releases someone's been putting out on the behalf of Markus.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

don't forget all the fake press releases someone's been putting out on the behalf of Markus.

Good point.