Baseball error question

[21C]

I watched a game yesterday where a player hit a high fly ball to the outfield, the OF lost the ball in the sun and it landed right next to him - or may have even hit him.

So I'm thinking it's a two base error since the batter reached second. The scoreboard on the TV screen flashes 'hit' and I thought it must have been a mistake. I check the box score today and it was scored as a double.

I know that the official scorer has the option to give the credit to the batter rather than a fielder's miscue but what am I missing here? I'm positive that the ball would have been caught if the OF hadn't lost the ball in the sun.

[GoldenEagle]

If does not touch the glove or the body (or roll underneath the body) it can not be an error.

[21C]

I just went to the MLB rules page and it seems that it could be ruled as an error even if it doesn't touch the player.

"NOTE (2) It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder's legs or a pop fly falls untouched and in the scorer's judgment the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, an error shall be charged."

I'm still reading it to find anything else.

[21C]

Is this supposed to cover it?

"NOTE (3) Mental mistakes or misjudgments are not to be scored as errors unless specifically covered in the rules."

[Mustang]

ERRORS
10.13
An error shall be charged for each misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) which prolongs the time at bat of a batter or which prolongs the life of a runner, or which permits a runner to advance one or more bases. NOTE (1) Slow handling of the ball which does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error. NOTE (2) It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder's legs or a pop fly falls untouched and in the scorer's judgment the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, an error shall be charged. NOTE (3) Mental mistakes or misjudgments are not to be scored as errors unless specifically covered in the rules. (a) An error shall be charged against any fielder when he muffs a foul fly, to prolong the time at bat of a batter whether the batter subsequently reaches first base or is put out. (b) An error shall be charged against any fielder when he catches a thrown ball or a ground ball in time to put out the batter runner and fails to tag first base or the batter runner. (c) An error shall be charged against any fielder when he catches a thrown ball or a ground ball in time to put out any runner on a force play and fails to tag the base or the runner. (d) (1) An error shall be charged against any fielder whose wild throw permits a runner to reach a base safely, when in the scorer's judgment a good throw would have put out the runner. EXCEPTION: No error shall be charged under this section if the wild throw is made attempting to prevent a stolen base. (2) An error shall be charged against any fielder whose wild throw in attempting to prevent a runner's advance permits that runner or any other runner to advance one or more bases beyond the base he would have reached had the throw not been wild. (3) An error shall be charged against any fielder whose throw takes an unnatural bounce, or touches a base or the pitcher's plate, or touches a runner, a fielder or an umpire, thereby permitting any runner to advance. NOTE: Apply this rule even when it appears to be an injustice to a fielder whose throw was accurate. Every base advanced by a runner must be accounted for. (4) Charge only one error on any wild throw, regardless of the number of bases advanced by one or more runners. (e) An error shall be charged against any fielder whose failure to stop, or try to stop, an accurately thrown ball permits a runner to advance, providing there was occasion for the throw. If such throw be made to second base, the scorer shall determine whether it was the duty of the second baseman or the shortstop to stop the ball, and an error shall be charged to the negligent player. NOTE: If in the scorer's judgment there was no occasion for the throw, an error shall be charged to the fielder who threw the ball. (f) When an umpire awards the batter or any runner or runners one or more bases because of interference or obstruction, charge the fielder who committed the interference or obstruction with one error, no matter how many bases the batter, or runner or runners, may be advanced. NOTE: Do not charge an error if obstruction does not change the play in the opinion of the scorer.

10.14
No error shall be charged in the following cases: (a) No error shall be charged against the catcher when after receiving the pitch, he makes a wild throw attempting to prevent a stolen base, unless the wild throw permits the stealing runner to advance one or more extra bases, or permits any other runner to advance one or more bases. (b) No error shall be charged against any fielder who makes a wild throw if in the scorer's judgment the runner would not have been put out with ordinary effort by a good throw, unless such wild throw permits any runner to advance beyond the base he would have reached had the throw not been wild. (c) No error shall be charged against any fielder when he makes a wild throw in attempting to complete a double play or triple play, unless such wild throw enables any runner to advance beyond the base he would have reached had the throw not been wild. NOTE: When a fielder muffs a thrown ball which, if held, would have completed a double play or triple play, charge an error to the fielder who drops the ball and credit an assist to the fielder who made the throw. (d) No error shall be charged against any fielder when, after fumbling a ground ball or dropping a fly ball, a line drive or a thrown ball, he recovers the ball in time to force out a runner at any base. (e) No error shall be charged against any fielder who permits a foul fly to fall safe with a runner on third base before two are out, if in the scorer's judgment the fielder deliberately refuses the catch in order that the runner on third shall not score after the catch. (f) Because the pitcher and catcher handle the ball much more than other fielders, certain misplays on pitched balls are defined in Rule 10.15 as wild pitches and passed balls. No error shall be charged when a wild pitch or passed ball is scored. (1) No error shall be charged when the batter is awarded first base on four called balls or because he was touched by a pitched ball, or when he reaches first base as the result of a wild pitch or passed ball. (i) When the third strike is a wild pitch, permitting the batter to reach first base, score a strikeout and a wild pitch. (ii) When the third strike is a passed ball, permitting the batter to reach first base, score a strikeout and a passed ball. (2) No error shall be charged when a runner or runners advance as the result of a passed ball, a wild pitch or a balk. (i) When the fourth called ball is a wild pitch or a passed ball, and as a result (a) the batter runner advances to a base beyond first base; (b) any runner forced to advance by the base on balls advances more than one base, or (c) any runner, not forced to advance, advances one or more bases, score the base on balls, and also the wild pitch or passed ball, as the case may be; (ii) When the catcher recovers the ball after a wild pitch or passed ball on the third strike, and throws out the batter runner at first base, or tags out the batter runner, but another runner or runners advance, score the strikeout, the putout and assists, if any, and credit the advance of the other runner or runners as having been made on the play.

[ice4277]

Originally Posted by 21C

I just went to the MLB rules page and it seems that it could be ruled as an error even if it doesn't touch the player.

"NOTE (2) It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder's legs or a pop fly falls untouched and in the scorer's judgment the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, an error shall be charged."

I'm still reading it to find anything else.

Perhaps, but rarely, if ever, would they actually score it as an error on a fly ball in the outfield.

[DanGarion]

Probably has to do with the fact that because of the sun the player had no play on the ball. That isn't something the player has control over.

[21C]

I know that the benefit of the doubt often goes to the batter in other cases I've seen like this but I've never actually heard that losing it in the sun is a valid reason for 'excusing' an error ( for lack of a better description ).

[21C]

I'm happy to accept the "Mental mistakes or misjudgments" argument in this case even though it's a bit nebulous.

[DanGarion]

Hack Wilson losing the ball in the sun in the 1929 World Series was not an error.

[DanGarion]

Also I see a reference in this game http://www.usatoday.com/sports/score.../100191305.htm

Dimitri Young lost the ball in the sun and it bounced off him and went to left center, but he was not charged with an error.

[21C]

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

It's just that I'd never heard a reference to that in all the years I've been watching. You learn something every day.

[Huckleberry]

I've seen balls that fell to the ground in the outfield ruled errors multiple times. As noted above, though, losing the ball in the sun is not an error. It is not considered ordinary effort to stare directly into the sun to track the ball.

[molson]

How about this scenerio - a few days ago, Wily Mo Pena had a play on a ball in Right Field, he should have made the catch, but he instead deflects the ball over the wall. Has anyone ever been charged an error on an over-the-wall home run? It seems to meet all the criteria of the rule, but I don't think it's ever been called.

[Travis]

No idea where to look, but wasn't Canseco charged with an error on the one he headed over the wall to cause a home run?

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Travis

No idea where to look, but wasn't Canseco charged with an error on the one he headed over the wall to cause a home run?

Yeah but the sun wasn't involved in that only the size of his roid head.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Travis

No idea where to look, but wasn't Canseco charged with an error on the one he headed over the wall to cause a home run?

Nope.

Can't be ruled a HR and an error. (if they did that it'd either be a 4 base error, a double with a 2 base error, etc.)

[panerd]

The baseball rule that I depise is the definition of an earned run. I understand that if the shortstop boots a routine grounder that player later scoring shouldn't effect the pitcher's stats, but if the pitcher screws up that I say all bets are off. Why shouldn't a pitcher be charged with an earned run if he made the error that caused the base runner?

[sterlingice]

In this day and age, it's hard to get something scored an error unless it's an RBI Baseball style "thunk" where it hits the glove and the player stumbles around trying to find it. Not only that, but with all the hometown scorers, they always want to give hits to the home team so the away team doesn't get errors and they rarely want to give their own players an error. They really need some new official scorers.

SI

[stevew]

If the home team guy hit the ball, chances are that it's almost 99% going to be a hit. If the away team hit the ball, It'd be subject to rules interpretation much more closely. Just MHO.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by panerd

The baseball rule that I depise is the definition of an earned run. I understand that if the shortstop boots a routine grounder that player later scoring shouldn't effect the pitcher's stats, but if the pitcher screws up that I say all bets are off. Why shouldn't a pitcher be charged with an earned run if he made the error that caused the base runner?

I think the idea is that ERA is only supposed to measure pitching quality. So if a pitcher is a shitty fielder, then that should be reflected in his fielding stats, but not his ERA.

[Rizon]

I've seen easy ground balls roll through legs, flies bounce of gloves, etc, and they're ruled hits. I think it's ultimately the scorer's decision based on a loose principal of rules.