Baseball Official Scorekeeping Rule Change

[Huckleberry]

Not that it's an at all unusual situation, but in tonight's St. Louis @ Houston game, Wandy Rodríguez pitched a great game (especially for him) and the Astros had a 3-0 lead going into the top of the 9th. José Valverde promptly gave up 3 runs in the top of the inning before the Astros won it in the bottom half.

So he gets the win. A blown save, but he gets the win.

Why hasn't it been considered to make a pitcher that gets a blown save ineligible for the win? I don't really pay attention to wins and losses, especially for relievers, but doesn't it seem fair that Rodríguez get the win? You know, give the win to the pitcher previously eligible for it before the guy blew the save. Unless the game goes extra innings, for example, and a reliever that comes in after the goat performs well.

Just slightly irritating.

[DaddyTorgo]

I agree. Or just say "nobody gets the win"

[Subby]

Lots of things need to be changed with respect to relief pitcher stats, starting with what defines a save.

[lungs]

Pitcher wins should be outlawed.

[Toddzilla]

The great sabermetric article from a few weeks ago made a fantastic point about how meaningless and idiotic unearned runs are.

One of the things that makes baseball the greatest sport in the world is how much of its history is woven into todays game, but sometimes history makes it hard to give up the bad things, too.

[korme]

Dude the only thing that matters is wins (says Paul Daugherty, idiot)

[molson]

I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think I heard an announcer once say that the official scorekeeper actually has the discretion to award the "Win" to another pitcher in this kind of situation. They hardly ever actually do so, but I'm almost sure I've heard of it happening before.

Edit: Upon looking up the rule, I think I'm confusing it with the "save discretion" rule. The official scorer doesn't HAVE to award a save (if say, someone pitches the last 3 innings and gives up 10 runs, and his team wins 20-10).

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

Dude the only thing that matters is wins (says Paul Daugherty, idiot)

Thats because everyone knows the good pitchers have the ability to pitch to the score.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think I heard an announcer once say that the official scorekeeper actually has the discretion to award the "Win" to another pitcher in this kind of situation. They hardly ever actually do so, but I'm almost sure I've heard of it happening before.

Edit: Upon looking up the rule, I think I'm confusing it with the "save discretion" rule. The official scorer doesn't HAVE to award a save (if say, someone pitches the last 3 innings and gives up 10 runs, and his team wins 20-10).

Looks like there is discretion, dunno how often it gets used however. And it only applies to subsequent relievers.

10.17 Winning And Losing Pitcher
(a) The official scorer shall credit as the winning pitcher that pitcher whose team assumes a lead while such pitcher is in the game, or during the inning on offense in which such pitcher is removed from the game, and does not relinquish such lead, unless
(1) such pitcher is a starting pitcher and Rule 10.17(b) applies; or
(2) Rule 10.17(c) applies.
Rule 10.17(a) Comment: Whenever the score is tied, the game becomes a new contest insofar as the winning pitcher is concerned. Once the opposing team assumes the lead, all pitchers who have pitched up to that point and have been replaced are excluded from being credited with the victory. If the pitcher against whose pitching the opposing team gained the lead continues to pitch until his team regains the lead, which it holds to the finish of the game, that pitcher shall be the winning pitcher.
(b) If the pitcher whose team assumes a lead while such pitcher is in the game, or during the inning on offense in which such pitcher is removed from the game, and does not relinquish such lead, is a starting pitcher who has not completed
(1) five innings of a game that lasts six or more innings on defense, or
(2) four innings of a game that lasts five innings on defense, then the official scorer shall credit as the winning pitcher the relief pitcher, if there is only one relief pitcher, or the relief pitcher who, in the official scorer’s judgment was the most effective, if there is more than one relief pitcher.
Rule 10.17(b) Comment: It is the intent of Rule 10.17(b) that a relief pitcher pitch at least one complete inning or pitch when a crucial out is made, within the context of the game (including the score), in order to be credited as the winning pitcher. If the first relief pitcher pitches effectively, the official scorer should not presumptively credit that pitcher with the win, because the rule requires that the win be credited to the pitcher who was the most effective, and a subsequent relief pitcher may have been most effective. The official scorer, in determining which relief pitcher was the most effective, should consider the number of runs, earned runs and base runners given up by each relief pitcher and the context of the game at the time of each relief pitcher’s appearance. If two or more relief pitchers were similarly effective, the official scorer should give the presumption to the earlier pitcher as the winning pitcher.
(c) The official scorer shall not credit as the winning pitcher a relief pitcher who is ineffective in a brief appearance, when at least one succeeding relief pitcher pitches effectively in helping his team maintain its lead. In such a case, the official scorer shall credit as the winning pitcher the succeeding relief pitcher who was most effective, in the judgment of the official scorer.
Rule 10.17(c) Comment: The official scorer generally should, but is not required to, consider the appearance of a relief pitcher to be ineffective and brief if such relief pitcher pitches less than one inning and allows two or more earned runs to score (even if such runs are charged to a previous pitcher). Rule 10.17(b) Comment provides guidance on choosing the winning pitcher from among several succeeding relief pitchers.
(d) A losing pitcher is a pitcher who is responsible for the run that gives the winning team a lead that the winning team does not relinquish.
Rule 10.17(d) Comment: Whenever the score is tied, the game becomes a new contest insofar as the losing pitcher is concerned.
(e) A league may designate a non-championship game (for example, the Major League All-Star Game) for which Rules 10.17(a)(1) and 10.17(b) do not apply. In such games, the official scorer shall credit as the winning pitcher that pitcher whose team assumes a lead while such pitcher is in the game, or during the inning on offense in which such pitcher is removed from the game, and does not relinquish such lead, unless such pitcher is knocked out after the winning team has attained a commanding lead and the official scorer concludes that a subsequent pitcher is entitled to credit as the winning pitcher.

[Maple Leafs]

If the official scorer had the discretion to give additional wins to the starter, some teams would have a staff full of 25-game winners.

[Nice Guy Eddie]

well, A win is a win is a win, and I think maybe that's just the nature of baseball. So while on the surface a win in the given situation may LOOK unearned, or even invalid, it is still a win under the parameters of the game, and those rules were put in place for a reason.

[cuervo72]

We need a "Bad Guy Freddie" now.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Generally speaking, a closer's ideal record would be 0-0. The reason is because the vast majority of their appearances happen when their team has a lead. If they have a loss, it means they likely blew a lead. If they have a win, it means they likely blew a lead and then their team ended up bailing them out. Either way, it's not an ideal result.

[panerd]

Add this one. Pitcher commits error himself and then doesn't get charged any earned runs for any runs he gives up.

[LloydLungs]

Well, everyone knows not to put any value in closer wins. I'll be happy when people figure out that the save stat is only marginally more relevant. Honestly, if Joe Borowski racking up 40+ saves didn't make that ridiculous stat irrelevant I don't know what will.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by panerd

Add this one. Pitcher commits error himself and then doesn't get charged any earned runs for any runs he gives up.

I don't mind this. You should separate his pitching performance from his fielding performance.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Generally speaking, a closer's ideal record would be 0-0. The reason is because the vast majority of their appearances happen when their team has a lead. If they have a loss, it means they likely blew a lead. If they have a win, it means they likely blew a lead and then their team ended up bailing them out. Either way, it's not an ideal result.

except that since there can be situations where a save is impossible to attain, many closers are brought into tie games in the top of the 9th to preserve the tie, and then get the win when their team scoresin the bottom of the inning...from my baseball watching experience, that happens alot more often than the "they likely blew a lead and then their team ended up bailing them out" scenario.