TEEN BOOBS HERE

[Fritz]

this may liven up the place for a while
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/s...060may10.story

School tries to patch up student art controversy

Wheeling High School officials' response to a student's revealing self-portrait has sparked a schoolwide controversy about censorship

By Colleen Mastony
Tribune staff reporter

May 10, 2003

High school artist Mary Loeffler wanted her self-portrait to make a statement about freedom and women's bodies. Instead, it prompted a schoolwide discussion about age-appropriate art and censorship.

Loeffler, 17, painted a life-size portrait of herself wearing a bright red dress with her left breast exposed. On Wednesday, she hung the painting in the lobby outside the Wheeling High School cafeteria.

Within an hour, administrators asked her to take it down.

"It did disrupt the learning environment," said Principal Dottie Sievert. "It may be a wonderful picture, but it is not appropriate for a school."

On Friday, the painting was back on the wall. Loeffler, a senior who plans to attend the School of the Chicago Art Institute next year, had covered the offending breast with a fluorescent green construction-paper patch--and wore a matching one over her own left breast.

"Censoring me was a ridiculous act, so I countered with an equally ridiculous act," she said.

The painting became the center of controversy at the school Friday as administrators indulged a daylong protest and students decried what they called an act of censorship.

Halls filled with teenagers arguing about free speech. Dozens wore green patches on their chests to support Loeffler. Some boys put patches over their groin area, insisting they were mature enough to appreciate art. Others wore tape with the word "censored" over their mouths.

And, as happens with teenagers, there was lots of talk about breasts. Male students were particularly eager to prove they were experienced in such matters.

"I just think some people really, like, aren't really, like, mature enough to see a woman's chest," said Michael Nixon, 15, a freshman. "Look at `Family Business' [a program on Showtime]. There are breasts on every show!"

Sievert said some students behaved inappropriately when the painting was first hung. She recalled gawking and boys kissing the glass.

She also was concerned about how the painting would affect younger students, including the 100 1st graders who toured the high school Friday morning. And she worried that students from other cultures might be uncomfortable with the painting.

Yet many students were angry the portrait had to be covered.

"It's just ridiculous," said Angie Haban, 15, a sophomore. "What's next? Are they going to start crossing words out of books in the library?"

Students hung signs around the painting: "Self-expression. R.I.P." "Censorship is wrong." "Open your mind."

Along the road in front of the school, about 40 students waved at cars, cheered and held signs that read: "Wheeling Censors Art." A boy with fluorescent orange hair wore a shirt that said, "Self-expression is dead."

Sievert said protesting students were allowed outside as long as they were on the sidewalk, off the grass, not in the road and not skipping class.

Loeffler, who wore all black except for the patch, stood with the protesters. She said she had hung a seminude painting in the school before--but it was abstract--so administrators might not have noticed. "If you looked at it, there [were] two breasts at the top. They were right there!" Loeffler said she assumed seminude paintings were acceptable.

"I thought people here were more honest and accepting. Obviously, they aren't."

Some teenage boys insisted they didn't want to look at a woman's breast. Girls argued for baring it all.

"We don't think she should have to cover it," said Angie Haban. Next to her, Samantha Mozal, 15, a freshman, said the picture wasn't about sex. "It's about vulnerability," Mozal said.

David Lee, 17, a stocky football player, didn't care. "I prefer not to walk by pictures of breasts when I'm walking to class," he said, taking an unpopular position. "The administration has an obligation to create an appropriate learning environment."

Two boys debated in the middle of a crowd.

"First of all, the breast is not a sexual object," said Chris Ranvestel, 18, a senior who was backed up by a throng of girls.

"You can't always hide behind the title of art," shot back Billy Caputo, 18, a senior and baseball player who was quickly outnumbered.

Freshman Robert Skoglund, 15, held a small replica of Michaelangelo's David and questioned why teachers hadn't covered the statue's bare buttocks.

"Sexism," another boy replied.

Watching the protesters outside, Sievert sighed. "This is giving them lots of attention, and they thrive off attention."


Copyright © 2003, Chicago Tribune

[sachmo71]

I wonder how we would view these situations if our country had been founded by druids instead of puritans? Or maybe hedonists? Although technically, would a hedonist even accept the concept of a country?

[Radii]

"It's just ridiculous," said Angie Haban, 15, a sophomore. "What's next? Are they going to start crossing words out of books in the library?"

heh

[Franklinnoble]

Originally posted by sachmo71
I wonder how we would view these situations if our country had been founded by druids instead of puritans? Or maybe hedonists? Although technically, would a hedonist even accept the concept of a country?

Druids wouldn't have made it across the ocean.

[Qwikshot]

Originally posted by Franklinnoble
Druids wouldn't have made it across the ocean.

The Vikings did tho

[Samdari]

Originally posted by Franklinnoble
Druids wouldn't have made it across the ocean.

Couldn't they have just walked?

[dawgfan]

What, no picture of the painting included in the story? Shoddy journalism!

[Fritz]

is it only kiddie porn if adults do it?

[sachmo71]

I hear the druids had some good drugs. They probably could have swum while buzzing.

[bbor]

Tease

[JeeberD]

Boobies rock....

[cuervo72]

Some teenage boys insisted they didn't want to look at a woman's breast. Girls argued for baring it all.

Um, what? What kind of boys are these? And these girls should have gone to my school

"First of all, the breast is not a sexual object," said Chris Ranvestel, 18, a senior who was backed up by a throng of girls.

Again.....WHAT??

[Fonzie]

Originally posted by Franklinnoble
Druids wouldn't have made it across the ocean.

Level 1 Druids wouldn't have made it, but I'll bet the 12th level Druids might have. They've got some bitchin' spells.

[Calis]

Damn, I read Druids as Droids...now that I look again it's not near as cool.

[mckerney]

cuervo72:

A. I'm not sure what kind of guys those are. Lesbians probably.

B. The guy was being backed up by 'a throng' of girls, he was just saying that shit to get some action.

[Ksyrup]

Some teenage boys insisted they didn't want to look at a woman's breast. Girls argued for baring it all.

Originally posted by cuervo72
Um, what? What kind of boys are these?

Read between the lines. They said they didn't want to look at a woman's breast. Clearly, they wanted to see BOTH OF THEM!

[Travis]

We had a girl in drama class that ripped open her shirt during a self written monologue in class.

I was sick that day and missed it.

Thank god she was ugly or I would be scarred for having missed it. From what I heard, everybody else was scarred for having witnessed it.

This really has nothing to do with the thread, but it's here now.

[Anrhydeddu]

5 years prison sentence for possessing child pornography, including those of 17 year olds. Are you saying this is very different? How can you tell? Just like the Dub Dub thread, should our minds be open and progressive enough so that we should accept all forms of sexual exploitation and gratification - regardless of age? Okay, so you would draw a line somewhere, but where? What would prevent that line from being drawn lower and lower?

[clintl]

Originally posted by Fritz
is it only kiddie porn if adults do it?

Yes.

[dawgfan]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
5 years prison sentence for possessing child pornography, including those of 17 year olds. Are you saying this is very different? How can you tell? Just like the Dub Dub thread, should our minds be open and progressive enough so that we should accept all forms of sexual exploitation and gratification - regardless of age? Okay, so you would draw a line somewhere, but where? What would prevent that line from being drawn lower and lower?

The line between art/free expression and pornography is one usually left up to local communities when it comes to the law. This is one of those areas where trying to define it in strict legalese terms fails and you have to rely on a case-by-case judgement.

Trying to draw some hard line in the sand will inevitably fail when it comes to judging whether art crosses the line into indecency. Not only does that fail to acknowledge the fact that art transcends simple definitions and descriptions, but it ignores the possibilities that the sensibilities of the community may shift over time. What is considered acceptable art in a liberal community like Bellingham, WA may be considered vulgar in a much more fundamentalist/conservative town elsewhere in the country.

From the description in the paper, it doesn't sound as if this painting suggests pornography. I feel for the school administrators - this is a tough position for them to be. On the one hand, leaving it on display is a great opportunity for the school to discuss and debate free expression, the expressive power of art, the charged meanings implicit in images of women's breasts, etc. On the other hand, I can imagine the outrage some parents, students, administrators, etc. might feel at seeing that displayed in the school, and not want to deal with the headaches that would accompany that. Now, they have to deal with censorship debates.

Regardless of the aesthetic quality of the artwork, it would seem that at least part of the aim of the piece has been achieved - by exposing herself in her self-portrait she's proven the power of the female form to inflame passion.

[vex]

Originally posted by Fritz
Sievert said protesting students were allowed outside as long as they were on the sidewalk, off the grass, not in the road and not skipping class.

And this is possible how?

[JeeberD]

Protesting between classes, silly...

And I guess before and after school too...

[Fritz]

Originally posted by clintl
Yes.

well, that is stupid.

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by mckerney
cuervo72:

A. I'm not sure what kind of guys those are. Lesbians probably.

B. The guy was being backed up by 'a throng' of girls, he was just saying that shit to get some action.

True....

I wonder what those same girls' reactions would be if he attempted to grab a hold of a couple of those non-sexual breasts.

[Anrhydeddu]

The bottom line for me is that you/they can't have it both ways. People want to have the openness of sex and free love but none of the consequences of such things (like rape, date rape, molestations, sexual assualts, sexual harrasment, unwanted pregnancies, pornography, etc.).

[Franklinnoble]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
The bottom line for me is that you/they can't have it both ways. People want to have the openness of sex and free love but none of the consequences of such things (like rape, date rape, molestations, sexual assualts, sexual harrasment, unwanted pregnancies, pornography, etc.).

Alright... raise your hands if you don't want pornography.

[dawgfan]

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
The bottom line for me is that you/they can't have it both ways. People want to have the openness of sex and free love but none of the consequences of such things (like rape, date rape, molestations, sexual assualts, sexual harrasment, unwanted pregnancies, pornography, etc.).

I'll have to disagree with you on almost every point here. I don't think there's any good reason why the 'consequences' you've listed are necessary by-products of a more open and enlightened approach to sex and sexuality.

Rape/Date-Rape
Every psychologist/psychiatrist etc. I've heard talking about rape describe it as far more about power than it is about sex. To my knowledge rape is something that has always been a problem in society regardless of sexual attitudes.

Molestations
This is an issue that is tied to mental health and self-control; I don't buy the assertion that a society with more open attitudes about sex fosters more incidences of molestation.

Sexual Assualts
I'm not sure how you're differentiating this from rape or date rape, but I would apply the same arguments to this as I did for rape - it's about power.

Sexual Harrassment
I think sexual harrasment would actually decrease with more enlightened attitudes about sex and sexuality. I think that societies that are repressed about sex are the ones that tend to foster this kind of boorish behavior.

Unwanted Pregnancy
The problem with unwanted pregnancy is real simple - people not using protection when having sex. More education and readily available means of birth control are the best ways to combat this problem, as well as the more subtle but also important issues of poverty and other social problems. An enlightened attitude about sex and sexuality should encourage discussion of the consequences of unprotected sex.

Pornography
You may have a point here, but more in that a society that embraces sex and sexuality is perhaps more open to indulge in consumption of pornography. I don't think porn is necessarily a bad thing; certainly there are some types of porn (child porn, bestiality, abusive/degrading sex) that are cause for concern or disgust, and you don't want porn readily available for children to consume, but in general I think there are things dubbed porn that have a place in a healthy, sexually enlightened society.

What would be interesting is looking at these types of issue in other societies that have a more progressive attitude about sex and sexuality than the rather uptight USA.

[Anrhydeddu]

dawgfan, we will have to disagree then. It is not about doing bad things because of sin as it relates to sex but enjoying the good things because of love. If folks are spending more time and emotion, through whatever issues they may have, engaging in pre-marital or extra-marital sex, masturbating to pornography esp. when married, thinking or talking about lewd acts with a co-worker, etc., that takes away the fulfillment of the act of love that sex can be with your spouse. Why should we encourage, then, acts and thoughts that can degrade and debase sexuality instead of the opposite? This is not to say I am blameless in this regards but such a principle to live by.

[clintl]

I think these types of arguments evade the heart of the matter, which is whether nudity in art is inherently pornographic, and I don't think it is. Without actually seeing the picture, it's hard to tell for sure, but based on the description in the article, I doubt that this picture is any more pornographic than Venus de Milo.

[Anrhydeddu]

clintl, I don't think it's the art either but the attitudes behind it. Art is just the media to change and to acknowledge attitudes. Even from the article, she admits the intent. Remember, I come from the generation of free love. The consequences I saw the changing of attitudes regarding sex from an expression of true love and beauty (as in the case of Michaelangelo) to one of self gratification and objectifaction. That trend still continues and I say that is not a good thing.

[Coffee Warlord]

I think this thread has degenerated off what really matters.

WHERE'S THE DAMN BOOBS?!??!

[Franklinnoble]

Originally posted by Coffee Warlord
I think this thread has degenerated off what really matters.

WHERE'S THE DAMN BOOBS?!??!

True that. I expected someone to have posted a photo of a nice teenaged set of hooters by now.

[clintl]

Anrhydeddu, she's a high school kid exploring the limits of artistic expression, which is a very normal and healthy thing to be doing at that age, not someone out to make a buck off of other people's desire to jack off. As far as I can tell from the article, she's a serious and committed art student. Just because your tastes are more conservative than hers doesn't mean she doesn't have a valid viewpoint and message.

[Fritz]

she does not have the adult capacity to make a decision like this

[Fritz]

what would the reaction be if a male teacher/principal did a semi nude painting of her?

[sabotai]

One question...

Since when the hell is pornography an unwanted consequence!?

[dawgfan]

Originally posted by Fritz
what would the reaction be if a male teacher/principal did a semi nude painting of her?

It would be considerably different, because the circumstances would be considerably different. The reaction would undoubtably be almost universally negative.

[dawgfan]

Originally posted by Fritz
she does not have the adult capacity to make a decision like this

Well, since in certain definitions she wouldn't be considered an adult I guess technically speaking you're correct.

Are you seriously suggesting that a High School senior lacks the capacity to make an informed judgement about the decision to do a self-portrait that includes an exposed breast?

[clintl]

Originally posted by Fritz
she does not have the adult capacity to make a decision like this

what would the reaction be if a male teacher/principal did a semi nude painting of her?

She's 17, and legally able to go to any R-rated movie she wants to by herself, where there will likely be a lot more flesh exposed than she exposed in her painting. That's close enough for me as far as her competency to make the decision to paint semi-nude self portrait is concerned. As far as I can tell from the article, no questions her right to paint such a self-portrait; the only issue was whether the school was an appropriate place to display it.

And a self-portrait done on your own volition is not quite the same thing as being persuaded by an authority figure to disrobe and model.

[korme]

whoa whoa whoa, back up the fun bus.

did someone say teen boobs?

[Blade]

I second that! I have been following this discussion waiting for some boobs to be posted!

Hey...I don't have much of a life...I have nothing better to do than wait around here and hope someone posts boobs...

[Marmel]

Originally posted by Blade
I second that! I have been following this discussion waiting for some boobs to be posted!

Hey...I don't have much of a life...I have nothing better to do than wait around here and hope someone posts boobs...

Fritz, for God's sake, will you shut these guys up and just post that picture of you with no shirt on.

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by Marmel
Fritz, for God's sake, will you shut these guys up and just post that picture of you with no shirt on.

It has to be an old picture though - remember, the thread specifies TEEN BOOBS!

[Drake]

What if a 17 year old male art student had done a painting of another underaged student which displayed that student's breasts? Is that pornography? Does it make a difference if the female student models for the painting or if the 17 year old made the image up from observation and imagination? Does it make a difference if the female underaged student consents to having her breasts displayed in his artwork, or if she doesn't (i.e. she does not model, and he paints from his imagination using a school photograph of her for the face, but extrapolates the nude portions)?

Once the painting is done, regardless of the circumstances, who owns the right to decide where/if her nudity is displayed - the artist or the subject of the art?

[Syrinx]

Originally posted by Drake
....

Once the painting is done, regardless of the circumstances, who owns the right to decide where/if her nudity is displayed - the artist or the subject of the art?

Or the facility where the art is to be put on display?

In this particular case, both the artist and the subject (being one and the same) consented to have the nudity displayed. It is the school saying that the subject matter is not appropriate for display on their wall.

[Alf]

Nearly 2 pages, and still no boobs picture. I am disappointed.

[Drake]

Good point, Syrinx. I'm going off on a tangent, I'll admit.

[Anrhydeddu]

Drake, you apparently picked up my bad habit of asking a lot of questions in a post.

[vex]

Where are the boobs already!

[Marmel]

UU