Ping: History PhD's

DaddyTorgo · 07-12-2005, 09:57 PM

Don't know if we have any here on the board, but it's something I've been considering a lot. But I know the statistics aren't great for jobs afterwards in teaching particularly and I'm also curious about what other types of jobs are out there. So I'm conducting a little FOFC survey of any history PhD's that we have here on the board, or anyone who knows a history PhD. What do you/they do now with their degree? Would you/they do it again?

thanks

CHEMICAL SOLDIER · 07-12-2005, 10:03 PM

Dont you have to do extensive studies to get a phD? How long do yout papers have to be?

DaddyTorgo · 07-12-2005, 10:06 PM

oh yeah. years and years of school. nice long dissertations, etc. but the thing is, i really REALLY love school, love learning, love writing scholarly papers...all that sort of stuff. So that doesn't scare me. I actually would love that. I'm just wondering what sorts of jobs would be out there for me after it. Cuz if I do that and then end up working back at Starbucks say, well then what's the point.

sachmo71 · 07-12-2005, 10:15 PM

http://www.library.csi.cuny.edu/dept...ry/career.html

sachmo71 · 07-12-2005, 10:17 PM

dola...

\\\\\\\\Old man RANT!!\\\\\\

If I had half the sense God gave rocks, I would have probably been able to tell you first hand. Now, I can only encourage you to follow your dreams.

\\\\\\\\Old man RANT!!\\\\\\

DaddyTorgo · 07-12-2005, 11:00 PM

thanks old man

Peregrine · 07-12-2005, 11:09 PM

Well honestly when I was working on my MA in History, I fully intended to go on and get my doctorate, but in the end I decided not to, that the job market and the amount of debt I'd have to take on would mean a very precarious financial situation. A lot of people I knew at the time did decide to go on and get their doctorates, and many of them have struggled to find low-paying assistant (or temporary) professor work. So I can see the attraction but it's something you'll have to think over carefully. Personally leaving grad school turned out to be great for me, as I moved to a new place, got involved in IT, and ended up making good money in that field.

Mr. Wednesday · 07-12-2005, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHEMICAL SOLDIER

Dont you have to do extensive studies to get a phD? How long do yout papers have to be?

A PhD generally takes four to five years. In engineering, dissertations are published as a book containing hundreds of pages.

CHEMICAL SOLDIER · 07-12-2005, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sachmo71

dola...

\\\\\\\\Old man RANT!!\\\\\\

If I had half the sense God gave rocks, I would have probably been able to tell you first hand. Now, I can only encourage you to follow your dreams.

\\\\\\\\Old man RANT!!\\\\\\

Listen everyone! An old man is speaking!

CHEMICAL SOLDIER · 07-12-2005, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

A PhD generally takes four to five years. In engineering, dissertations are published as a book containing hundreds of pages.

Ok! Thanks for answering that question.

Klinglerware · 07-12-2005, 11:34 PM

Length of time depends on the discipline here in the US. Sciences can be done in 4-5, social science Ph.D. students tend to be in their programs 7-8+ years. Most students here in the US who enter Ph.D. programs don't complete them. I started a Ph.D. program in 1996. I decided it wasn't for me and left to try out the working world in 1998. I returned in 2003 to finish my M.A. requirements and get the hell out of there. When I returned 7 years after I started (with 40 other entering students), 1 or 2 people in my program had completed their Ph.D.'s, a couple of others were still finishing their dissertations, the rest transferred out or dropped out... That's not so out of bounds for a Social Science/Humanities program, but it's better in the hard sciences.

I spoke with an acquaintance who finished his Ph.D. in the UK. He says that most people finish there, typically in 3 or 4 years. He attributes this to the fact that undergrads in the UK are more specialized when they graduate so they can begin their research in earnest once they hit grad school. In the US, people tend to do combined M.A./Ph.D. programs, where they essentially have to learn the cannon of their discipline in the first two years of their Ph.D program, then go on to their dissertation research.

Also, whatever you do, don't go without funding (non-loan departmental or other fellowship/grant/assistant funding)--unless you are independently wealthy and are doing this for kicks, it's probably not worth it otherwise.

That being said, I'd give it a go if you have a passion for it. Despite the problems with my program, I really enjoyed doing my own research. It is rare in life that you have an opportunity to focus your energies on what you truly want to do...

Vince · 07-12-2005, 11:38 PM

I have a B.A. in History. I'm currently unemployed.

That's about all I have to contribute to the discussion. I want to get my MA at some point, but the added debt is daunting...

Peregrine · 07-12-2005, 11:42 PM

I know the feeling Vince. I was lucky to be able to get my History MA without incurring any debt (being a teaching assistant, getting a fellowship and some other minor scholarship money, etc) but that was pretty lucky, I knew I wouldn't be as fortunate in a doctoral program.

Desnudo · 07-12-2005, 11:57 PM

A friend of mine is in a PhD program, one of the life sciences. He supplements his income by working for lumber companies as an advisor. And by having a wife that works.

CHEMICAL SOLDIER · 07-13-2005, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desnudo

A friend of mine is in a PhD program, one of the life sciences. He supplements his income by working for lumber companies as an advisor. And by having a wife that works.

Put that woman to work!

Is it hard to find work for a history major?

cody8200 · 07-13-2005, 08:56 AM

I'm 6 credits away from having my BA in history...job opportunities look fairly bleak...

WSUCougar · 07-13-2005, 09:12 AM

After getting my bachelor's in history at WSU I went into a PhD history program in military history at Temple University. Although I got to study under Russ Weigley (a true icon in the field of American military history), and also met my future wife there, the experience was otherwise negative. Two very bitter strikes (teacher's union vs. school administration) were the main problems, but the student/professor ratio was also a big issue. In all honesty, I needed guidance and didn't get it, so I floundered and eventually bailed on it after three years of blood, sweat, and tears.

My advice is to be damn sure it's what you want to do, and to do your homework when picking a doctoral program. Know what you're getting into and find a place that is a great fit for what your needs are.

All that being said, there are some other options out there. Drop me a PM with your specific career interests and I might be able to offer some insights for you.

Samdari · 07-13-2005, 09:24 AM

I also went through a PhD program, finished all of my credits, passed the qualifying exams, did 90% of the research and 1/2 the writing for a dissertation, then bagged it all because I could not stand that life anymore.

From a cynic's point of view, here is what graduate school is like (and I mean "real" graduate school, not a master's program you or some other outside source pays for):

You will end up being a research assistant for some professor, most likely the one who you choose for a dissertation advisor. To the professor, this means you are his slave. You will do most of the gruntwork for his classes, do most of the research that gets published in his name, and occaisionally teach them when he is out of town presenting your work as his own. For this, you will get your tuition paid, and a "stipend" having you live right around the poverty line.

The professor will spend all of his time writing grant proposals. Its not entirely his fault, with cuts in federal funding available to universities, there is more pressure then ever from administrators to bring in research dollars. This is pretty much how the quality of professor is judged these days - attracting dollars is considered good research these days, regardless of how the resulting publication is viewed. There is more competition for the available dollars, meaning that there is less chance of success for each proposal, and thus they need to write more proposals than ever. This means, however, that you will be asked to do more of what was traditionally the professor's job than ever, and the available assistantship money will be spread thinner than ever.

In short, I would recommend to everyone that they avoid this life, unless they feel they cannot be happy in life without being a college professor (i.e. you like writing grant proposals) or have dreamed about having/earning the PhD for your whole life.

Klinglerware · 07-13-2005, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

My advice is to be damn sure it's what you want to do, and to do your homework when picking a doctoral program. Know what you're getting into and find a place that is a great fit for what your needs are.

My experiences in my program were similar to yours: well regarded department but horribly administered graduate program. I too was swayed by the idea of studying under superstars (Bob Jervis, Fareed Zakaria, etc.) in a great city...

Your advice about knowing exactly what you want to research and finding a place that fits your needs are crucial. When deciding on my programs, I actually had a couple of other choices that were better regarded for what I was interested in studying and which offerred better funding. Ultimately, I went with my heart than with my head--I took the risk of it not working out, and it didn't, but I knew the risks coming in and don't regret my time there...

Edit: Yeah, as others have mentioned, you have to be truly passionate about the subject matter. You absolutely cannot half-ass it and expect to make it through.

flere-imsaho · 07-13-2005, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

My advice is to be damn sure it's what you want to do, and to do your homework when picking a doctoral program. Know what you're getting into and find a place that is a great fit for what your needs are.

Quoted for truth. I have an M.Litt. (basically 1/2 a Ph.D.) in medieval history from Oxford as well as a history/political science B.A. I decided against getting a Ph.D. because I knew that your first few years are spent doing 6-month sabattical covers all around the country for peanuts. And even these positions are highly competitive.

Instead, I had the good luck to return to the States in 99, and I knew computers. Six years later, after going through several technical positions, I'm now in more of a strategy role. I've found the writing, research & critical thinking skills I developed from my studies have been valuable in my career so far.

On another front, I have a good friend who got his Ph.D. in history from Harvard two years ago. He's gone through two years of sabbatical coverage, but has now landed a tenure-track position at a university in San Diego, so we're really happy for him.

He's a very good example of the kind of person you need to be able to succeed as an academic, though. He really lives his studies, and is always immersed. I think you really need to be completely and fully focused on your era of speciality if you're going to succeed. For what it's worth, his advice to any undergrads he teaches is not to do graduate work. He figures if someone is determined enough to make it, they'll be determined enough to ignore his advice.

Anyway, best of luck!

07-12-2005, 10:03 PM	#2
CHEMICAL SOLDIER College Starter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Henderson, Nevada	Dont you have to do extensive studies to get a phD? How long do yout papers have to be? __________________ Toujour Pret

07-12-2005, 11:34 PM	#11
Klinglerware College Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: The DMV	Length of time depends on the discipline here in the US. Sciences can be done in 4-5, social science Ph.D. students tend to be in their programs 7-8+ years. Most students here in the US who enter Ph.D. programs don't complete them. I started a Ph.D. program in 1996. I decided it wasn't for me and left to try out the working world in 1998. I returned in 2003 to finish my M.A. requirements and get the hell out of there. When I returned 7 years after I started (with 40 other entering students), 1 or 2 people in my program had completed their Ph.D.'s, a couple of others were still finishing their dissertations, the rest transferred out or dropped out... That's not so out of bounds for a Social Science/Humanities program, but it's better in the hard sciences. I spoke with an acquaintance who finished his Ph.D. in the UK. He says that most people finish there, typically in 3 or 4 years. He attributes this to the fact that undergrads in the UK are more specialized when they graduate so they can begin their research in earnest once they hit grad school. In the US, people tend to do combined M.A./Ph.D. programs, where they essentially have to learn the cannon of their discipline in the first two years of their Ph.D program, then go on to their dissertation research. Also, whatever you do, don't go without funding (non-loan departmental or other fellowship/grant/assistant funding)--unless you are independently wealthy and are doing this for kicks, it's probably not worth it otherwise. That being said, I'd give it a go if you have a passion for it. Despite the problems with my program, I really enjoyed doing my own research. It is rare in life that you have an opportunity to focus your energies on what you truly want to do... Last edited by Klinglerware : 07-13-2005 at 12:04 AM.

07-12-2005, 11:38 PM	#12
Vince Pro Starter Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Willow Glen, CA	I have a B.A. in History. I'm currently unemployed. That's about all I have to contribute to the discussion. I want to get my MA at some point, but the added debt is daunting... __________________ Every time a Dodger scores a run, an angel has its wings ripped off by a demon, and is forced to tearfully beg the demon to cauterize the wounds.The demon will refuse, and the sobbing angel will lie in a puddle of angel blood and feathers for eternity, wondering why the Dodgers are allowed to score runs.That’s not me talking: that’s science. McCoveyChronicles.com.

07-13-2005, 09:12 AM	#17
WSUCougar Rider Of Rohan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Port Angeles, WA or Helm's Deep	After getting my bachelor's in history at WSU I went into a PhD history program in military history at Temple University. Although I got to study under Russ Weigley (a true icon in the field of American military history), and also met my future wife there, the experience was otherwise negative. Two very bitter strikes (teacher's union vs. school administration) were the main problems, but the student/professor ratio was also a big issue. In all honesty, I needed guidance and didn't get it, so I floundered and eventually bailed on it after three years of blood, sweat, and tears. My advice is to be damn sure it's what you want to do, and to do your homework when picking a doctoral program. Know what you're getting into and find a place that is a great fit for what your needs are. All that being said, there are some other options out there. Drop me a PM with your specific career interests and I might be able to offer some insights for you. __________________ It's not the years...it's the mileage.

07-13-2005, 09:24 AM	#18
Samdari Roster Filler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Cicero	I also went through a PhD program, finished all of my credits, passed the qualifying exams, did 90% of the research and 1/2 the writing for a dissertation, then bagged it all because I could not stand that life anymore. From a cynic's point of view, here is what graduate school is like (and I mean "real" graduate school, not a master's program you or some other outside source pays for): You will end up being a research assistant for some professor, most likely the one who you choose for a dissertation advisor. To the professor, this means you are his slave. You will do most of the gruntwork for his classes, do most of the research that gets published in his name, and occaisionally teach them when he is out of town presenting your work as his own. For this, you will get your tuition paid, and a "stipend" having you live right around the poverty line. The professor will spend all of his time writing grant proposals. Its not entirely his fault, with cuts in federal funding available to universities, there is more pressure then ever from administrators to bring in research dollars. This is pretty much how the quality of professor is judged these days - attracting dollars is considered good research these days, regardless of how the resulting publication is viewed. There is more competition for the available dollars, meaning that there is less chance of success for each proposal, and thus they need to write more proposals than ever. This means, however, that you will be asked to do more of what was traditionally the professor's job than ever, and the available assistantship money will be spread thinner than ever. In short, I would recommend to everyone that they avoid this life, unless they feel they cannot be happy in life without being a college professor (i.e. you like writing grant proposals) or have dreamed about having/earning the PhD for your whole life. __________________ http://www.nateandellie.net Now featuring twice the babies for the same low price!

07-12-2005, 10:06 PM	#3
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	oh yeah. years and years of school. nice long dissertations, etc. but the thing is, i really REALLY love school, love learning, love writing scholarly papers...all that sort of stuff. So that doesn't scare me. I actually would love that. I'm just wondering what sorts of jobs would be out there for me after it. Cuz if I do that and then end up working back at Starbucks say, well then what's the point.

07-12-2005, 10:15 PM	#4
sachmo71 The boy who cried Trout Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: TX	http://www.library.csi.cuny.edu/dept...ry/career.html

07-12-2005, 10:17 PM	#5
sachmo71 The boy who cried Trout Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: TX	dola... \\\\\\\\Old man RANT!!\\\\\\ If I had half the sense God gave rocks, I would have probably been able to tell you first hand. Now, I can only encourage you to follow your dreams. \\\\\\\\Old man RANT!!\\\\\\

07-12-2005, 11:00 PM	#6
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	thanks old man

07-12-2005, 11:09 PM	#7
Peregrine Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Cary, NC	Well honestly when I was working on my MA in History, I fully intended to go on and get my doctorate, but in the end I decided not to, that the job market and the amount of debt I'd have to take on would mean a very precarious financial situation. A lot of people I knew at the time did decide to go on and get their doctorates, and many of them have struggled to find low-paying assistant (or temporary) professor work. So I can see the attraction but it's something you'll have to think over carefully. Personally leaving grad school turned out to be great for me, as I moved to a new place, got involved in IT, and ended up making good money in that field.

07-12-2005, 11:42 PM	#13
Peregrine Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Cary, NC	I know the feeling Vince. I was lucky to be able to get my History MA without incurring any debt (being a teaching assistant, getting a fellowship and some other minor scholarship money, etc) but that was pretty lucky, I knew I wouldn't be as fortunate in a doctoral program.

07-12-2005, 11:57 PM	#14
Desnudo Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Here and There	A friend of mine is in a PhD program, one of the life sciences. He supplements his income by working for lumber companies as an advisor. And by having a wife that works.

07-13-2005, 08:56 AM	#16
cody8200 High School Varsity Join Date: Nov 2000	I'm 6 credits away from having my BA in history...job opportunities look fairly bleak...

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