OT: Kerry Wood's Pitch Count

INDalltheway · 05-10-2003, 03:27 PM

Today, (through 7 innings) Kerry Wood has thrown 141 pitches. That is crazy for a guy comming back from elbow trouble. He hasn't walked or struck out a huge number of people, but it seems the every Cardinal has fouled off 3 or more pitches in each AB. What do you guys think about the Cubbies having him out there throwing that many pitches? Here is his stat line...
IP H R ER BB SO
7.0 4 1 1 3 8

oykib · 05-10-2003, 03:50 PM

Dusty Baker, as great as he is, routinely leads the world in abusing his pitchers arms. You should check some of the counts he's laid on Livan Hernandez's arm...

markprior22 · 05-10-2003, 04:05 PM

141 is absolutely nuts.....

lynchjm24 · 05-10-2003, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oykib
Dusty Baker, as great as he is, routinely leads the world in abusing his pitchers arms. You should check some of the counts he's laid on Livan Hernandez's arm...

If you are going to abuse someone, abuse guys like Livan. Leave Kerry alone.

Today the Yankees are beating the A's 4-0 in the seventh, Macha is taking Zito out at 110 pitches.

Rich1033 · 05-10-2003, 05:06 PM

Dusty is well known for doing this. I actually thought about it when he was hired. He is a great guy to lead a veteran team but I wouldnt trust him with the young arms of Prior, Cruz, Zambrano(sp?)and the injury history of Wood.

44Niners · 05-10-2003, 05:19 PM

Livan could throw 200 pitches - he has that kind of arm

Can't really get anybody out, but he sure can throw a lot of pitches

sterlingice · 05-10-2003, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oykib
Dusty Baker, as great as he is, routinely leads the world in abusing his pitchers arms. You should check some of the counts he's laid on Livan Hernandez's arm...

I disagree- I think he's second to the man who was managing in the other dugout today. La Russa is the most abusive manager out there on pitchers.

SI

clintl · 05-10-2003, 05:58 PM

Neither of them could touch Billy Martin for abusing pitchers. He ruined a whole starting staff with the A's.

lynchjm24 · 05-10-2003, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sterlingice
I disagree- I think he's second to the man who was managing in the other dugout today. La Russa is the most abusive manager out there on pitchers.

SI

Well I'd have him second to Jeff Torborg.

MizzouRah · 05-10-2003, 09:06 PM

I know I'll get blasted for this, but I think pitch counts are overrated. He looked good, probably told Dusty he felt good, so he kept him in.

The bonehead decision was replacing Alfonseca after a 1, 2, 3 8th innng.

Todd

MizzouRah · 05-10-2003, 09:13 PM

dola,

Way to go Eldred! Another one bites the dust. The Cardinals can't win the close ones so far this year. I think Izzy is the key, if he doesn't come back, we are done. If he comes back, it will have a domino effect on the rest of the bullpen.

Todd

kcchief19 · 05-10-2003, 09:56 PM

You're not the only one, MizzouRah. Worry about pitch counts has ruined pitching. They take kids who have been used to pitching all the time in little league, high school and maybe college and put them in a minor league system where they cut their pitching down significantly. The results are pitchers that can't throw more than 200-225 innings per year.

Now Billy Martin did ruin the A's young arms in the '80s, but they was beyond the extreme -- he had a four-man staff, nobody missed a start and they all logged upwards of 300 innings. NOW that will kill you, unless you have a rubber arm.

That said, letting a guy coming off arm surgery going that long is asking for trouble.

clintl · 05-11-2003, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kcchief19
You're not the only one, MizzouRah. Worry about pitch counts has ruined pitching. They take kids who have been used to pitching all the time in little league, high school and maybe college and put them in a minor league system where they cut their pitching down significantly. The results are pitchers that can't throw more than 200-225 innings per year.

Actually, from what I've read, pitch counts are something legitimate to worry about. Pitchers are most susceptible to injuries when they have thrown a lot of pitches in a game, and are getting tired. However, pitchers pitching in a 4-man vs. 5-man rotation are not any more likely to get injured, and perform better. The 5-man rotation is what has ruined pitching (that, and not throwing as much between starts).

andy m · 05-11-2003, 11:50 AM

clint sums it up nicely, that's how i understand it too. some pitchers can handle a higher pitch count but the danger is when someone pitches whilst tired.

sterlingice · 05-11-2003, 02:48 PM

Well, they've started creating stats like "pressure pitches" and the like because it's a lot easier to pitch when you're not reaching back to get something extra on every pitch.

Also, there was a great article in USA Today, I believe it was, at the beginning of the year. It stated that if you throw a young pitcher more than 60 higher than previous yearly highs, they will have a much worse year the next year and be on the fast track to arm surgery. Three on the top of the list that I remember were Roy Oswalt, Jason Jennings, and Brian Lawrence, who all threw 200 IP last year after never pitching near that. All three are pitching worse than last year. There is a lot of credence to the argument of not abusing young arms.

SI

MizzouRah · 05-11-2003, 04:15 PM

Young arms are a different story. Ha, forgot to add that to my post. I have read where pitch counts and young arms do matter (little league through college).

It varies for players that have taken or have been taken care of at younger ages. I just think Wood was getting stronger as the game wore on.

Todd

oykib · 05-11-2003, 09:02 PM

Actually, Baseball Prospeectus keeps track of a stat called Picthcer Abuse Points (PaP). Basically, pitchers start accumulating PaPs after pitch 106 or so. It's one point for the first eight, then two points for the next eight, and so on, or something like that.

It's a useful stat because even though we don't know what the truly dangerous pitch count is, it sticks out when guys rack up a lot of double digit PaPs in a short strech. It's also good because it can be easily matched up with important games.

For instance, Riggelman injured Wood's arm by abusing it mercilessly in his rookie year. But the cubs wound up in the playoffs. Though they only barely made it. They wound up tied with the Giants for the wildcard and had to play a game 163 with them. So, you can easily understand why he did it. He needed every game that season. Sometimes, though, you see it in situations that make absolutely no sense.

sterlingice · 05-11-2003, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oykib
For instance, Riggelman injured Wood's arm by abusing it mercilessly in his rookie year. But the cubs wound up in the playoffs. Though they only barely made it. They wound up tied with the Giants for the wildcard and had to play a game 163 with them. So, you can easily understand why he did it. He needed every game that season. Sometimes, though, you see it in situations that make absolutely no sense.

Yeah, he definately abused Wood's arm in 1998, I think it was. I remember Terry Mullholland was cap'n rubber arm that year, too: he'd get a spot start and then two days later would be doing three innings of middle relief. Mullholland, Beck, and Wood basically willed that pitching staff to make the playoffs.

SI

INDalltheway · 05-11-2003, 10:25 PM

That was a great summer... Sammy hitting bombs, Wood striking everyone out, and the Cubs actually making the playoffs. On another note, did anyone watch today's Cubs game? That wind was crazy!

sterlingice · 05-11-2003, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by INDalltheway
That was a great summer... Sammy hitting bombs, Wood striking everyone out, and the Cubs actually making the playoffs. On another note, did anyone watch today's Cubs game? That wind was crazy!

Yeah- that reminded me of some of those 19-18 type games with the Phillies but those are usually sunny.

SI

CHEMICAL SOLDIER · 05-12-2003, 12:56 AM

How many pitches did Wood throw overall ?
Wonder what the record is for Pitches thrown in a 9 inning game ?

andy m · 05-12-2003, 03:35 AM

he threw 141 because he came out after the 7th.

cincyreds · 05-12-2003, 07:39 AM

Quote:

I disagree- I think he's second to the man who was managing in the other dugout today. La Russa is the most abusive manager out there on pitchers.

Tony LaRussa is obviously the most abusive manager when it comes to pitchers. He truly lives for the "now" moment without thinking of what impact it may have on a young kid in the future. I just hope he doesn't ruin Jimmy Journel, the next ace for the Cardinals.

Rick Ankiel for one. He has ruined this young mans confidence and his arm. Ankiel should sue, seriously.

Alan Benes, Matt Morris....to name a few.

Baker should be fired! 141 pitches is absurd. If I were Woods' agent. I would have been on the phone screaming, "what the H-Bomb is Dusty doing to my client?"

Jeff Torborg had it coming a long time ago.

MizzouRah · 05-12-2003, 08:19 AM

Tony LaRussa is obviously the most abusive manager when it comes to pitchers. He truly lives for the "now" moment without thinking of what impact it may have on a young kid in the future. I just hope he doesn't ruin Jimmy Journel, the next ace for the Cardinals.

I'll disagree on this one. Watching almost every Cardinals game every year, Tony pulls pitchers out just like any other manager. This year is different, however, with his closer Izzy out, he's been keeping pitchers in a little longer than normal and that is usually only veterans like Woody, Matty Mo, and Tomko.

Rick Ankiel for one. He has ruined this young mans confidence and his arm. Ankiel should sue, seriously.

This must be a joke, are you kidding me? Sue for what? Throwing the ball to the backstop? I guess LaRussa's to blame for Ankiel's complete meltdown. Funny how a kid becomes rich, has losers for parents, maybe can't take all the pressure from the media comparing him to Koufax, and it's the manager's fault for running him out there so he could try to snap out of it? I say bs!

Alan Benes, Matt Morris....to name a few.

Benes? Morris? They seem fine to me, although Alan has had some injury trouble in the past, but I don't think it's from pitching too much. Matt Morris had the same problems most pitchers do nowdays and had Tommy John surgery to correct it. It's not uncommon nowdays, in fact I bet in the future some pitchers will get this surgery without even needing it as it has shown to improve pitching speed.

Baker should be fired! 141 pitches is absurd. If I were Woods' agent. I would have been on the phone screaming, "what the H-Bomb is Dusty doing to my client?"

And I would have told you to be an agent and I will be a manager. Fire Dusty? I guess he doesn't know what he's doing, heck he just went seven games in the World Series.

It's payback time for your Reds starting tomorrow!

Todd

oykib · 05-12-2003, 08:25 AM

I think that the 'fire Dusty' bit was going too far. It's up to upper management to tell Dusty about protecting their investments ( i.e. Wood, Prior, Zambrano )-- not the players' repective agents.

But Tony La Russa did contribute to the downfall of Morris and, especially, Benes. With La Russa, like with Dusty, you have to give him a lot of rope because he always has his team in the pennant chase. The idea is to win. With guys that consistently do that not much can be said to impeach them. I made the same argument about Riggelman in '98.

cuervo72 · 05-12-2003, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cincyreds

Jeff Torborg had it coming a long time ago.

Yeah, too bad he took out half of the Marlins' young starters first.

MizzouRah · 05-12-2003, 09:54 AM

Believe me, overall, I don't think LaRussa is the best pitching manager out there or has been. In fact, I'm beginning to doubt his use of position players as well.

Todd

05-11-2003, 11:50 AM	#14
andy m High School Varsity Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: norwich, UK	clint sums it up nicely, that's how i understand it too. some pitchers can handle a higher pitch count but the danger is when someone pitches whilst tired. __________________ mostly harmless FOFL 2009 champs - Norwich Quagmire

05-11-2003, 02:48 PM	#15
sterlingice Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Back in Houston!	Well, they've started creating stats like "pressure pitches" and the like because it's a lot easier to pitch when you're not reaching back to get something extra on every pitch. Also, there was a great article in USA Today, I believe it was, at the beginning of the year. It stated that if you throw a young pitcher more than 60 higher than previous yearly highs, they will have a much worse year the next year and be on the fast track to arm surgery. Three on the top of the list that I remember were Roy Oswalt, Jason Jennings, and Brian Lawrence, who all threw 200 IP last year after never pitching near that. All three are pitching worse than last year. There is a lot of credence to the argument of not abusing young arms. SI __________________ Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!"

05-11-2003, 09:02 PM	#17
oykib College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	Actually, Baseball Prospeectus keeps track of a stat called Picthcer Abuse Points (PaP). Basically, pitchers start accumulating PaPs after pitch 106 or so. It's one point for the first eight, then two points for the next eight, and so on, or something like that. It's a useful stat because even though we don't know what the truly dangerous pitch count is, it sticks out when guys rack up a lot of double digit PaPs in a short strech. It's also good because it can be easily matched up with important games. For instance, Riggelman injured Wood's arm by abusing it mercilessly in his rookie year. But the cubs wound up in the playoffs. Though they only barely made it. They wound up tied with the Giants for the wildcard and had to play a game 163 with them. So, you can easily understand why he did it. He needed every game that season. Sometimes, though, you see it in situations that make absolutely no sense. Last edited by oykib : 05-11-2003 at 09:03 PM.

05-12-2003, 12:56 AM	#21
CHEMICAL SOLDIER College Starter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Henderson, Nevada	How many pitches did Wood throw overall ? Wonder what the record is for Pitches thrown in a 9 inning game ? __________________ Toujour Pret

05-12-2003, 03:35 AM	#22
andy m High School Varsity Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: norwich, UK	he threw 141 because he came out after the 7th. __________________ mostly harmless FOFL 2009 champs - Norwich Quagmire

05-10-2003, 03:50 PM	#2
oykib College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	Dusty Baker, as great as he is, routinely leads the world in abusing his pitchers arms. You should check some of the counts he's laid on Livan Hernandez's arm...

05-10-2003, 04:05 PM	#3
markprior22 High School Varsity Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: springfield, il	141 is absolutely nuts.....

05-10-2003, 05:06 PM	#5
Rich1033 High School Varsity Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sylvania, Ohio	Dusty is well known for doing this. I actually thought about it when he was hired. He is a great guy to lead a veteran team but I wouldnt trust him with the young arms of Prior, Cruz, Zambrano(sp?)and the injury history of Wood.

05-10-2003, 05:19 PM	#6
44Niners In The Penalty Box Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Brentwood, CA	Livan could throw 200 pitches - he has that kind of arm Can't really get anybody out, but he sure can throw a lot of pitches

05-10-2003, 05:58 PM	#8
clintl College Starter Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Davis, CA	Neither of them could touch Billy Martin for abusing pitchers. He ruined a whole starting staff with the A's.

05-10-2003, 09:06 PM	#10
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Troy, Mo	I know I'll get blasted for this, but I think pitch counts are overrated. He looked good, probably told Dusty he felt good, so he kept him in. The bonehead decision was replacing Alfonseca after a 1, 2, 3 8th innng. Todd

05-10-2003, 09:13 PM	#11
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Troy, Mo	dola, Way to go Eldred! Another one bites the dust. The Cardinals can't win the close ones so far this year. I think Izzy is the key, if he doesn't come back, we are done. If he comes back, it will have a domino effect on the rest of the bullpen. Todd

05-10-2003, 09:56 PM	#12
kcchief19 Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Kansas City, MO	You're not the only one, MizzouRah. Worry about pitch counts has ruined pitching. They take kids who have been used to pitching all the time in little league, high school and maybe college and put them in a minor league system where they cut their pitching down significantly. The results are pitchers that can't throw more than 200-225 innings per year. Now Billy Martin did ruin the A's young arms in the '80s, but they was beyond the extreme -- he had a four-man staff, nobody missed a start and they all logged upwards of 300 innings. NOW that will kill you, unless you have a rubber arm. That said, letting a guy coming off arm surgery going that long is asking for trouble.

05-11-2003, 04:15 PM	#16
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Troy, Mo	Young arms are a different story. Ha, forgot to add that to my post. I have read where pitch counts and young arms do matter (little league through college). It varies for players that have taken or have been taken care of at younger ages. I just think Wood was getting stronger as the game wore on. Todd

05-11-2003, 10:25 PM	#19
INDalltheway College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Chicago	That was a great summer... Sammy hitting bombs, Wood striking everyone out, and the Cubs actually making the playoffs. On another note, did anyone watch today's Cubs game? That wind was crazy!

05-12-2003, 08:19 AM	#24
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Troy, Mo	Tony LaRussa is obviously the most abusive manager when it comes to pitchers. He truly lives for the "now" moment without thinking of what impact it may have on a young kid in the future. I just hope he doesn't ruin Jimmy Journel, the next ace for the Cardinals. I'll disagree on this one. Watching almost every Cardinals game every year, Tony pulls pitchers out just like any other manager. This year is different, however, with his closer Izzy out, he's been keeping pitchers in a little longer than normal and that is usually only veterans like Woody, Matty Mo, and Tomko. Rick Ankiel for one. He has ruined this young mans confidence and his arm. Ankiel should sue, seriously. This must be a joke, are you kidding me? Sue for what? Throwing the ball to the backstop? I guess LaRussa's to blame for Ankiel's complete meltdown. Funny how a kid becomes rich, has losers for parents, maybe can't take all the pressure from the media comparing him to Koufax, and it's the manager's fault for running him out there so he could try to snap out of it? I say bs! Alan Benes, Matt Morris....to name a few. Benes? Morris? They seem fine to me, although Alan has had some injury trouble in the past, but I don't think it's from pitching too much. Matt Morris had the same problems most pitchers do nowdays and had Tommy John surgery to correct it. It's not uncommon nowdays, in fact I bet in the future some pitchers will get this surgery without even needing it as it has shown to improve pitching speed. Baker should be fired! 141 pitches is absurd. If I were Woods' agent. I would have been on the phone screaming, "what the H-Bomb is Dusty doing to my client?" And I would have told you to be an agent and I will be a manager. Fire Dusty? I guess he doesn't know what he's doing, heck he just went seven games in the World Series. It's payback time for your Reds starting tomorrow! Todd

05-12-2003, 08:25 AM	#25
oykib College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	I think that the 'fire Dusty' bit was going too far. It's up to upper management to tell Dusty about protecting their investments ( i.e. Wood, Prior, Zambrano )-- not the players' repective agents. But Tony La Russa did contribute to the downfall of Morris and, especially, Benes. With La Russa, like with Dusty, you have to give him a lot of rope because he always has his team in the pennant chase. The idea is to win. With guys that consistently do that not much can be said to impeach them. I made the same argument about Riggelman in '98.

05-12-2003, 09:54 AM	#27
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Troy, Mo	Believe me, overall, I don't think LaRussa is the best pitching manager out there or has been. In fact, I'm beginning to doubt his use of position players as well. Todd

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