FOFC Literature Draft - Picks Thread

[Buccaneer]

I just realized I could also be describing the Scriptures (individual books around a central theme) but as Chief said, a person of faith believes this collection to be a canon.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Cartman, I was told by lord scarlet that that pick would not count as a series, that its considered one book.

I guess we'll have to wait for a public ruling then, as his description of the category fits those books to a T. Yes, it was conceived as a single work, but for obvious reasons was split into three titles for publishing, and the release dates of each book were separated by a period of time as well (July 1954, Sept. 1954, and Oct. 1955)

[st.cronin]

Cartman, as I mentioned in a pm, lord scarlet explicitly rejected that choice when it was on a list I submitted to him. There was no room left for interpretation.

[MrDNA]

Two picks, two controversies - if they came out as separate books, no matter whose choice it was, doesn't that make it a series of books?

[BYU 14]

Only 36 posts on Chief Rums first pick before Cartman selected......Next time try and drum up a little more controversy Chief

LOTR an excellent choice BTW.

[st.cronin]

This is the text of his pm to me:

Oh, and just a heads up: I do believe Lord of the Rings is technically one book. The "trilogy" is really just 3 chapters. I don't know if that is going to come up and be a problem with people or not.

Not quite as clearcut a ruling as I remembered.

[cartman]

Really, isn't any story that is published in separate books that is supposed to be read in a sequential order "one book"?

[st.cronin]

If cartman is happy with his pick, I'm ready to go. But I would like him to confirm that he's sticking with that pick.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

st.cronin is correct. It was simply the publisher's choice to break it apart. Not knowing all of Tolkien, are his other related books considered part of a Middle Earth collection or series, or were they just individual books around a central theme?

So, we're going to disregard physical reality and arbitrarily decide what something was supposed to be rather than what it actually was when it was created? I understand the attempt but think it's a bit misguided and needlessly complicated.

I content that Moby Dick was originally intended to be a short story about a tuna fisherman and a rogue dolphin and I object to it being categorized as anything else. If I create a wiki I can get a cite to back me up on that even.

I don't care for that much subjectivity in the rules since it moves the discussion from the value of the literature itself and puts it on the trivia around it.

[st.cronin]

Personally, I think its a valid pick. But lord scarlet does make a good point - Tolkien repeatedly denied that it was a trilogy, he insisted it was one book, published in three volumes.

[Izulde]

This gets into the question of authorial intent (Normally a BS argument, but in this case valid apparently) vs. popular opinion.

Yes, Tolkien evidently viewed it as one book, published in 3 volumes, but I would argue that because it was published in 3 volumes, that makes it a series, to say nothing of the repeated mention of it in popular culture for sure, possibly even critical circles (this one I'm not sure on), as a trilogy.

Furthermore, if we view LotR as one book, what of other texts that are arguably one book, but done in volume form? Are they one book or are they a series?

[Greyroofoo]

its amazing how fast a draft can go down the shithole

[Axxon]

As you might imagine. I vote that Cartman's choice stand if he still wants that choice and it comes to a vote.

[cartman]

Yep, I'm sticking with LotR as my pick, so feel free to make yours, st.c.

[st.cronin]

"His soul swooned slowly as he heard the snow falling faintly through the universe and faintly falling, like the descent of their last end, upon all the living and the dead." - James Joyce, The Dead

Widely considered the greatest short story ever written, and concluding with what some have described as the greatest sentence ever composed in the English language, Joyce's The Dead topped my ranking of short stories, with a massive gap between #1 and #2. This would have been my pick had I had the first overall pick, too.

1. Fiction
2. Single Short Story - The Dead, James Joyce
3. Poem
4. Fantasy/Science Fiction
5. Series (A set of books continuing the same story and intended to be read sequentially)
6. Sport Related
7. Children's
8. Non-Fiction
9. Biography/Autobiography
10. History

[Warhammer]

I would just like to point out that LotR is not really a series per se. It was one book released in sections.

Minor point, but I think in this day and age that is probably the strongest pick for #1.

[Warhammer]

Wow, I've never even heard of The Dead before...

[Warhammer]

I think we need to stick with authorial intent in the case of what category a book is in. There have been books that have been released chapter by chapter in magazines. That does not make that a series even though it was released piecemeal, nor does it make that book a series of short stories.

[MrDNA]

Short story is a tough category - really only one sprang to my mind when I was brainstorming - but it sure wasn't "the Dead" Maybe a good pick, but probably one you could have waited on and nabbed a more popular author in the first round.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

I think we need to stick with authorial intent in the case of what category a book is in. There have been books that have been released chapter by chapter in magazines. That does not make that a series even though it was released piecemeal, nor does it make that book a series of short stories.

But the rules stated that being published in a magazine doesn't count. From the rules:

Must be published in a book. This is an unfortunate rule that has been made to reduce shenanigans. Each work must be published in a book, not a periodical (or book anthologizing a specific periodical). Publication year will be based on the first time published in a book.

Since the first time LOTR was published in a book, it was published in 3 books, I'd say it counts as a series. People can argue and debate over the author's original intent, you can't argue over how it was originally published.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by MrDNA

Short story is a tough category - really only one sprang to my mind when I was brainstorming - but it sure wasn't "the Dead" Maybe a good pick, but probably one you could have waited on and nabbed a more popular author in the first round.

PM me what you had, I'm curious.

[Eaglesfan27]

The Dead is an excellent story, but I think it was a reach this early in the draft.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

I think we need to stick with authorial intent in the case of what category a book is in. There have been books that have been released chapter by chapter in magazines. That does not make that a series even though it was released piecemeal, nor does it make that book a series of short stories.

To be clear, if we can find a cite showing that the author intended a book be released in a different year than it was we will use that year instead of the published year as well?

I know it's not about the category but if we are actually going to use intent as the criteria then why not use it for all the criteria.

Honestly though, it seems better to use objective criteria rather than subjective criteria so again, the focus is on the work itself.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

The Dead is an excellent story, but I think it was a reach this early in the draft.

I agree.

Though I'm a little disappointed that this knocks out all the rest of Joyce. Ulysses and Portrait of the Artist As A Young Man were worthy candidates to appear in someone's Fiction category.

[timmynausea]

I don't think The Dead is a big reach there, really. Cronin gets one of the elite names in literature in one of the tougher categories to fill.

[Super Ugly]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

2. Single Short Story - The Dead, James Joyce

Ooh, nice pick. The Dead is one of my favourite short stories.

Awesome idea for a draft - I'll enjoy following this one.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by timmynausea

I don't think The Dead is a big reach there, really. Cronin gets one of the elite names in literature in one of the tougher categories to fill.

To me, it's actually one of the easiest categories to fill.

I can think of at least three or four high-quality candidates just off the top of my head.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Wow, I've never even heard of The Dead before...

BTW, as a public service. I won't quote as it's the entire story.

hxxp://www.online-literature.com/james_joyce/958/

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Izulde

To me, it's actually one of the easiest categories to fill.

I can think of at least three or four high-quality candidates just off the top of my head.

I know. At first I thought it might be hard but I have my shortlist and I'll get an A List guy here most likely.

[MrBug708]

For me, it is Araby

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Izulde

To me, it's actually one of the easiest categories to fill.

I can think of at least three or four high-quality candidates just off the top of my head.

Agreed. Once I thought about things, it really is one of the easiest categories to fill.

[Calis]

Originally Posted by MrDNA

dola - is it bad form to suggest what the other good series picks might be? I feel like that is a bit close to tampering...

Did you SEE the video game draft? People were massacred for doing such things.

Interesting draft, I'm anxious to follow it if it doesn't veer too far off course..and I think the worst was put out of the way early so that's good.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

st.cronin is correct. It was simply the publisher's choice to break it apart. Not knowing all of Tolkien, are his other related books considered part of a Middle Earth collection or series, or were they just individual books around a central theme?

This is certainly something to consider, but I can think of at least one other Tolkien work that could find its way into this draft.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

This is certainly something to consider, but I can think of at least one other Tolkien work that could find its way into this draft.

Nope. Once an author's taken, none of their other works can be used.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

This is certainly something to consider, but I can think of at least one other Tolkien work that could find its way into this draft.

Not anymore. One work per author.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

This is certainly something to consider, but I can think of at least one other Tolkien work that could find its way into this draft.

Not any more it can't.

Unless you have one of Christopher's works in mind.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

PM me what you had, I'm curious.

Please do not do this. That would be tampering.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Please do not do this. That would be tampering.

How so? He isn't eligible to pick in the category again and it's being done in private in any case. Do we have a no private discussions rule i am unaware of?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

For me, it is Araby

I really hope this doesn't become a draft where the masses are making our choices before we get to them.

[st.cronin]

Eh, I did get a couple of pms Chief but nothing that would change any of my future picks. But I'm ok if we make that a rule.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I really hope this doesn't become a draft where the masses are making our choices before we get to them.

Don't worry, Araby is no longer eligible.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Axxon

How so? He isn't eligible to pick in the category again and it's being done in private in any case. Do we have a no private discussions rule i am unaware of?

Do you know what choice he was considering, or what author? What if the author he tosses out has a strory that could fit in different categories, and then based on that PM, he selects that story and eliminates that author for everyone else. What if that author was also the writer of a work I was waiting to use with my pick (two picks after hios next one)?

That seems to be textbook tampering to me.

I really think we need to be discussing only the picks made, and after the picks, we can discuss the work of the authors selected, as they will then be ineligible.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Nope. Once an author's taken, none of their other works can be used.

So, can only one work from an author be used? (this is facetious, I forgot, and was amused I got three automatic responses...)

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Do you know what choice he was considering, or what author? What if the author he tosses out has a strory that could fit in different categories, and then based on that PM, he selects that story and eliminates that author for everyone else. What if that author was also the writer of a work I was waiting to use with my pick (two picks after hios next one)?

That seems to be textbook tampering to me.

I really think we need to be discussing only the picks made, and after the picks, we can discuss the work of the authors selected, as they will then be ineligible.

The pms I got were only about the category I had already picked in.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Don't worry, Araby is no longer eligible.

Heh...I'm not as familiar with Joyce's works (I probably could only have picked out Ulysses for sure to start).

I do hope people don't throw out "suggestions", though.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

The pms I got were only about the category I had already picked in.

Oh, I believe you, cronin, no more defending of PMs needed on my account. Axxon seemed to have doubts about my point, though, so I felt I needed to respond to him more at length.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Do you know what choice he was considering, or what author? What if the author he tosses out has a strory that could fit in different categories, and then based on that PM, he selects that story and eliminates that author for everyone else. What if that author was also the writer of a work I was waiting to use with my pick (two picks after hios next one)?

That seems to be textbook tampering to me.

I really think we need to be discussing only the picks made, and after the picks, we can discuss the work of the authors selected, as they will then be ineligible.

He had already made the choice so it didn't matter. Sure, someone could have tipped him off to another author but that can be said with any discussion. For the record, I was one of the PM's and was very sure this author isn't going to pop up in any other categories.

So, going forward, participants are not allowed any discussions about the draft outside of this thread? I don't mind but we need to set that rule now as I didn't think it was implied and I didn't mean to cause controversy. I just was enjoying discussing what was a safe move with someone who couldn't any longer use it.

[Maple Leafs]

Sorry for the delay...

Fiction: 1.4 Hamlet, by William Shakespeare
Single Short Story
Poem
Fantasy/Science Fiction
Series
Sport Related
Children's
Non-Fiction
Biography/Autobiography
History

Label your selection like so:

[st.cronin]

Solid.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Axxon

He had already made the choice so it didn't matter. Sure, someone could have tipped him off to another author but that can be said with any discussion. For the record, I was one of the PM's and was very sure this author isn't going to pop up in any other categories.

So, going forward, participants are not allowed any discussions about the draft outside of this thread? I don't mind but we need to set that rule now as I didn't think it was implied and I didn't mean to cause controversy. I just was enjoying discussing what was a safe move with someone who couldn't any longer use it.

I'm glad you're sure. I don't see why it should be an issue to not do this.

As I told you, I don't know what suggestion you made and can't judge whether it might affect his other picks or other categories. For all I know, that will end up affecting his choices later on, whether he says so or not.

Discuss the draft all you want outside of the thread. Just if you are speaking with someone actually in the draft, you should probably avoid talking about other works by other other authors, regardless of category. If you want to talk about that specific work, go for it. If you want to talk about that author, that is fine as well. If you want to bring up another work by an author who has already been selected, that's another way to go. I don't think it's too much to ask that you need do anything that could be construed as tampering.

This is all for fun, but there is some competitive intent here, and I believe we should honor that intent.