Who is the greatest competitor of all time?

[Kodos]

Who do you think is the greatest single competitor in all of sport or in the gaming world (such as Chess)?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Who do you think is the greatest single competitor in all of sport or in the gaming world (such as Chess)?

Not sure anybody tops MJ.
(if I'm understanding the question correctly)

[digamma]

Julie Moss, 1982 Ironman World Championship. Poop down the legs, crawling to the finish. Came up just short. But man what competitive spirit.

[cartman]

Super Dave Osborne

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by digamma

Julie Moss, 1982 Ironman World Championship. Poop down the legs, crawling to the finish. Came up just short. But man what competitive spirit.

So funny, I played her video (and the corresponding radiolab story) this morning to my sociology class. If was for the unit "What Can I Do?"

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Not sure anybody tops MJ.
(if I'm understanding the question correctly)

I think I agree with you. Certainly the best in sport that I have seen.

As for the question, I didn't want to limit it to sport. Felt like chess should be included in the conversation, and maybe other competitions that don't initially spring to mind for me. I thought of the question while reading a Wikipedia article on Bobby Fischer, which stemmed from reading an article on the movie Searching For Bobby Fischer.

[tarcone]

Bobby Knight

Nothing got in his way. If they did he made sure they paid.

[cartman]

Tiger Woods has to be near the top.

[CrescentMoonie]

Do we have to list someone who succeeded to the very top level of their field? MJ, Fischer, Brady, Montana, etc are all great, but what about someone like Russell Westbrook? Maybe Walter Payton? Great talents that didn't make it all the way to being a champion but put as much into their game as anyone.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Kodos

As for the question, I didn't want to limit it to sport.

I think my question about the question was more about whether I interpreted the intent of word choice being "competitor" correctly.

I felt like it was something about "competitive fire" or some other unquantifiable trait. My perception of MJ is that he'd go at you just as hard in tiddly winks as he would in a Finals Game 7, that it's just his mental/emotional makeup.

Then I start factoring his success & performance level next to others that I perceive as having the same makeup. And that's how he ended up on top of my list.

[jbergey22]

Nolan Ryan

from the different stories Ive heard perhaps Bob Gibson.

MJ
Tiger
Phelps
Bird
Nadal

such a difficult question

[Coffee Warlord]

Yeah, the way this was worded, MJ immediately came front and center to my mind.

[thesloppy]

Same for me, the particular word 'competitor' points directly to Jordan in my mind. There are plentiful stories about how ruthless he is at golf and/or gambling, and I remember a few NBAers telling tales of Jordan spending competitively, simply to show them/you/anybody that he could spend more money, in better fashion.

[cartman]

Stu Ungar is a lesser-known name that would rank at or near the top.

[CrescentMoonie]

Two more who might be a bit out of the box.

Gordie Howe. 26 years at the top level is pretty amazing.

Dale Earnhardt Sr. Between what we know on the track, and some of the rumored stuff that Days of Thunder was supposedly based on, I'm not sure if there was a more intense competitor.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Not sure anybody tops MJ.
(if I'm understanding the question correctly)

Agreed sir.

[albionmoonlight]

MJ

To throw out another name--Al Davis. The dude basically took on his own league. That's someone who relishes the fight and the win.

[thesloppy]

It just popped into my head hours later, and now it seems both completely obvious and a glaring omission so far:

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

How about the great competitors with little to no talent?

Tom Waddle. Imagine what this guy could have been with Jerry Rice's talent!



Found this on a website describing the game

"The Bears made the play-offs & faced Dallas in a game that became Waddles defining game & cemented his place in Bears lore. Any Bears fan who watched the game will never forget it. Waddle had 9 catches for 104 yards and was hit hard after most of them. He was knocked out of the game 3 times. After the third time he was revived with smelling salts & helped from the field. In his absence a Bears rush on the goal-line was stuffed. After only one play out he staggered back into the game & caught a 6 yard TD from Harbaugh for the only Bears T.D of the game. Anyone who has not seen clips to this game needs to go straight to YouTube & find it. While Waddle never made a Pro-Bowl he did make the All-Madden team, a tribute to the toughest, no nonsense players of the game, after the 1991 season. "

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

Sorry for the size of the picture, oops

[tarcone]

Michael Jordan is the name I thought of also. I just threw Bobby Knoght out there for grins.

Want it Bird who asked his competitors int he the 3 point contest "Who is finishing 2nd?"

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

"The Bears made the play-offs & faced Dallas in a game that became Waddles defining game & cemented his place in Bears lore. Any Bears fan who watched the game will never forget it. Waddle had 9 catches for 104 yards and was hit hard after most of them. He was knocked out of the game 3 times. After the third time he was revived with smelling salts & helped from the field. In his absence a Bears rush on the goal-line was stuffed. After only one play out he staggered back into the game & caught a 6 yard TD from Harbaugh for the only Bears T.D of the game. Anyone who has not seen clips to this game needs to go straight to YouTube & find it. While Waddle never made a Pro-Bowl he did make the All-Madden team, a tribute to the toughest, no nonsense players of the game, after the 1991 season. "

JE-sus, that's hardcore! And not in a good way. I know "times were different" and such, but that was only ~25 years ago and you'd think common medical sense would tell you waking a dude up from concussion and immediately sending him out onto a football field is some suspect shit, let alone doing it 3 times in the space of a couple hours. Props to dude's 'intestinal fortitude', I hope he can still spell his name.

[Groundhog]

Heavy basketball bias, but I can't go past MJ either.

[Carman Bulldog]

I'll echo MJ. That was the first thought that came to my head.

While his legacy is now tarnished, in my mind, Lance Armstrong would have also had to have been considered in this conversation at one point in history.

Finally, I'll throw out the name Dick Hoyt (or perhaps it should be Team Hoyt). If you are not familiar with Dick Hoyt, he's completed over 1100 endurance events, including 72 marathons and 7 Ironman triathalons while pushing his son, who has cerebral palsy.

[tarcone]

How Could I forget this man? Dan Gable.

This guy worked his ass off. And he didnt lose. Well, once. He lost his only match ever in his final college wrestling tourney. He was a 3 time national champion. After that loss, he went to the olympics and won a gold medal. Dominating the competition. And he was wrestling Eastern Europenas and Soviets in the midst of the cold war.
Gable continued winning as a coach. At Iowa he won 20 straight B1G titles and 9 national championships in a row. And while he was coaching he would continue wrestling his athletes. And he would dominate them. He was a low weight wrestler and he would beat up on the heavy weights that were 20 years younger.

This man is the most competitive man I know.

[Fidatelo]

I think you could make a case for Bobby Clarke.

[JPhillips]

Rulon Gardner needs to be considered. His Olympic victory is one of the greatest upsets of all time.

[hollmt]

While my first thought was also of Jordan, there are many, many, many others that are as competitive if not more so than him. Jordan gets a lot of love because he was also a winner. I think that can possibly skew your idea of the greatest single competitor. It is hard to imagine obviously, but ask yourself if you would hold him in the same status had he never actually won, but still competed in the same way/passion/fire he did?

I'm only focusing on his Basketball world too, not the other stories that may or may not even be true and could be embellished (kind of like the 'flu' game was )

[NobodyHere]

I vote Rudy from that movie.

I have no idea how close the real life story is.

[stevew]

MJ, with Kobe a close second.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by Carman Bulldog

Finally, I'll throw out the name Dick Hoyt (or perhaps it should be Team Hoyt). If you are not familiar with Dick Hoyt, he's completed over 1100 endurance events, including 72 marathons and 7 Ironman triathalons while pushing his son, who has cerebral palsy.

That's a great one. I'll modernize it a bit with both Scott Jurek and Dean Karnazes. Crazy ultramarathoners who do things like run the 2168 mile Appalachian Trail in 46 days (Jurek) and 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 consecutive days (Karnazes).

[MrBug708]

Kobe. I dont think his competitive nature was in the right place, but dude had a work ethic like nobody else in basketball.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by hollmt

While my first thought was also of Jordan, there are many, many, many others that are as competitive if not more so than him. Jordan gets a lot of love because he was also a winner. I think that can possibly skew your idea of the greatest single competitor. It is hard to imagine obviously, but ask yourself if you would hold him in the same status had he never actually won, but still competed in the same way/passion/fire he did?

I'm only focusing on his Basketball world too, not the other stories that may or may not even be true and could be embellished (kind of like the 'flu' game was )

I don't have to ask myself. No, I would not hold him up as one of the biggest competitors of all time if there wasn't winning with it. We are talking about a trait that is incredibly hard to see. The way guys get separated in this is by doing something extraordinary. That means wins. I'm sure there is some draft prospect putting in 18 hour days and WANTS it more than anything in the world. That guy may have all the drive in the world and not make it. He may even be more competitive than Jordan and Kobe put together. He isn't going to be in this conversation because he doesn't have 6 titles. Sorry, life sucks.

It also sucks if you were a "nice" guy. You won't see Gretzky get mentioned here, you won't see Manning, you won't see Steph Curry (watch some video of how hard that guy had to work to solve his ankle issues), you won't see anyone say Pete Sampras. That isn't fair either because the guys above are all uber competitive or they would not have succeeded. The list will be populated with guys with an edge and a mean streak:

1 - Jordan - No question, no doubt #1 in my mind.

2 - Brady - I hate him with the passion of 10,000 suns, but he'll do anything (including cheat) to win. there is a reason he is still so damned good even when he's so damned old. That passion to win and drive to win is something that permeates that entire locker room.

3 - Kobe - I remember reading about him spending a summer at Nike headquarters working his ass off so they could make him a shoe that protected him but was an ounce lighter. The guy was insane.

4 - Butkis - Watch old videos of the guy. He was a raving lunatic.

5 - Isiah Thomas - I'll throw this out there. That guy was the glue of the Pistons team. He won big at Indiana.


Bonus homer pick: I've read stories where Elway lost a game of pool at his house and would sell the pool table and buy another one the following day because he couldn't take the stench of losing. He has become a solid NFL exec after his HOF playing career. The guy has serious fire.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

JE-sus, that's hardcore! And not in a good way. I know "times were different" and such, but that was only ~25 years ago and you'd think common medical sense would tell you waking a dude up from concussion and immediately sending him out onto a football field is some suspect shit, let alone doing it 3 times in the space of a couple hours. Props to dude's 'intestinal fortitude', I hope he can still spell his name.

I think with all the media scrutiny now it is incredibly easy to forget how "not a big deal" concussions were as recently as 15 or 20 years ago. I had four DIAGNOSED concussions by the time I was 16 (~mid nineties), and no one batted an eye at any of them. Three of them were somewhat severe as well - two involved (brief) loss of consciousness and one was a line drive that fractured my cheekbone right below the orbital.

(Queue the "oh, THAT'S why..." Comments )

People just didn't realize the potential long-term effects, and part of it is that those "effects" are hugely disparate from person to person and concussion to concussion. Personally, I have zero lasting effects from any of them - and I have experienced at least two or three additional non-diagnosed concussions since (golf ball to the dome and a serious car accident where the tire iron clocked me on the noggin come to mind).

Add in the prestige and honor given to "toughing it out," and it's not at all hard to see why the condition was not considered serious for a long time.

[VPI97]

Ronnie Lott

[hollmt]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I don't have to ask myself. No, I would not hold him up as one of the biggest competitors of all time if there wasn't winning with it.

I think you made my point. Winning skews opinions and it is absolutely fine and understandable that it does. But, I know for sure there are Joe Blow's out there that are as competitive if not more than Jordan that do not get the time of day and it is only because they are not in the spotlight or are a 'winner'. Yes, life does suck.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

That's a great one. I'll modernize it a bit with both Scott Jurek and Dean Karnazes. Crazy ultramarathoners who do things like run the 2168 mile Appalachian Trail in 46 days (Jurek) and 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 consecutive days (Karnazes).

And Jurek did crazy things like running ultramarathons with a broken ankle. Dude is crazy.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by TroyF

5 - Isiah Thomas - I'll throw this out there. That guy was the glue of the Pistons team. He won big at Indiana.

Good one. Dude was competitive as fuck.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by hollmt

I think you made my point. Winning skews opinions and it is absolutely fine and understandable that it does. But, I know for sure there are Joe Blow's out there that are as competitive if not more than Jordan that do not get the time of day and it is only because they are not in the spotlight or are a 'winner'. Yes, life does suck.

I agreed with your point. . . and I also told you why it doesn't hold up in any conversation like this.

Emily Dickenson published only about a dozen poems in her lifetime. She's considered one of the greatest poets who ever lived. What if the other 1,800 had never been published? Would any of us know her name? The worlds greatest poet might have been a hermit who burned 20,000 poems in a fireplace before they died.

While I agree with your point, I think you missed mine. I don't give a crap if Bob Johnson from Toledo, OH was a competitive guy at everything in his life, worked on his game for 22 hours a day and was a scrub on his junior college team. he's not getting in this debate and he doesn't belong in it.

[korme]

It took TroyF and post #34 to list Brady. He's there.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by korme

It took TroyF and post #34 to list Brady. He's there.

Mentioned him in post #9.

[hollmt]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I agreed with your point. . . and I also told you why it doesn't hold up in any conversation like this.

Emily Dickenson published only about a dozen poems in her lifetime. She's considered one of the greatest poets who ever lived. What if the other 1,800 had never been published? Would any of us know her name? The worlds greatest poet might have been a hermit who burned 20,000 poems in a fireplace before they died.

While I agree with your point, I think you missed mine. I don't give a crap if Bob Johnson from Toledo, OH was a competitive guy at everything in his life, worked on his game for 22 hours a day and was a scrub on his junior college team. he's not getting in this debate and he doesn't belong in it.

Nah, I know you got my point and yes, I got yours. Hence why I said in my first post that my first thought was also of Jordan. He is known. It helps that he is known and won, like it would help anyone else. That is why I agreed with my last statement that 'Yes, life does suck.' It is unfortunate that others dont get the recognition maybe because they don't participate in a mainstream sport or even have really 'won' anything.

I am not at all debating who is the most competitive, at all. Nobody is going to win that argument . I just wanted to throw a thought out there on 'what if' and how would we judge him or really anyone for that matter had he not done all he has. It is a warranted thought whether you agree with that or not, even in this discussion. Winning does skew your opinion on someone though and winning does not equal competitiveness, especially in a team sport.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by korme

It took TroyF and post #34 to list Brady. He's there.

It took a guy who hates Brady to list him? (I know he was mentioned before mine)

What is funny to me about these debates was something else I put in my post. Nice guys? You will simply NEVER hear their names come up in a discussion like this.

With modern legends in hockey, you will hear people talk about Messier and will rarely have Gretzky, Yzerman or Sakic mentioned at all.

Basketball has Jordan, Garnett, Thomas, and others. . . but you won't hear the name Tim Duncan or Dirk come up.

Serious question here: Is this because we feel that to be competitive you have to be a little unlikable too?

[hollmt]

Originally Posted by TroyF

It took a guy who hates Brady to list him? (I know he was mentioned before mine)

What is funny to me about these debates was something else I put in my post. Nice guys? You will simply NEVER hear their names come up in a discussion like this.

With modern legends in hockey, you will hear people talk about Messier and will rarely have Gretzky, Yzerman or Sakic mentioned at all.

Basketball has Jordan, Garnett, Thomas, and others. . . but you won't hear the name Tim Duncan or Dirk come up.

Serious question here: Is this because we feel that to be competitive you have to be a little unlikable too?

Ha!
Yeah, I think so.
I think along with being thought of as competitive comes a little bit of arrogance, cockiness, trash talking, and general overall asshattery. The nice competitive guy is just a really good sportsman...
When you mentioned that niceness thing in your reply to me, it interested me as well, because WHY is that part of the equation also?

[CrescentMoonie]

Do guys like Pervis Ellison, Sam Bowie, and Marcus Dupree fit into the super competitive elite because of their effort to keep playing despite some pretty bad injuries?

[SplitPersonality1]

Jordan, Tiger & Ali are the first names that I think of when talking about great competitors.

Brett Favre hasn't been mentioned yet and he would be on my top 10 list for sure. As would Brady who I despise as well.

[Carman Bulldog]

Originally Posted by TroyF

It took a guy who hates Brady to list him? (I know he was mentioned before mine)

What is funny to me about these debates was something else I put in my post. Nice guys? You will simply NEVER hear their names come up in a discussion like this.

With modern legends in hockey, you will hear people talk about Messier and will rarely have Gretzky, Yzerman or Sakic mentioned at all.

Basketball has Jordan, Garnett, Thomas, and others. . . but you won't hear the name Tim Duncan or Dirk come up.

Serious question here: Is this because we feel that to be competitive you have to be a little unlikable too?

Can we separate drive and competitiveness? I'd argue that if we do, that in turn is what creates the distinction between "nice" guys and many others listed in this thread.

I think the guys you mentioned are among the most driven. If we were to distinguish that from competitiveness, then I would look at competitiveness as a "by any means necessary" approach, with people to their own detriment sometimes even going too far (ie. their competitiveness clouds their judgement).

In turn though, that raises the question, if a person is the most competitive, are they necessarily the greatest competitor, as this thread asked? I think most people in this thread have been referencing the most competitive athletes. Sometimes that is synonymous with the greatest competitor, but perhaps not always. There is something to be said for sportsmanship, knowing when to hold back at the risk of not injuring yourself, and on and on.

[Grammaticus]

If it is based on competitive nature versus simply greatest athlete, Pete Rose is in there.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

If it is based on competitive nature versus simply greatest athlete, Pete Rose is in there.

Certainly in the discussion somewhere, good catch.

[thesloppy]

I think part of the 'catch' in this conversation is that competitiveness is used/seen as a positive thing culturally, particularly in sports, or when viewed from afar, but if someone in your daily/social/work life is remarkably competitive it's a pretty good indicator that they're an asshole, or at least difficult to deal with.