#3 should be #1!

[Havok]

wow.... Blackader is right on the money

I won't pay Jeter half of what he makes now.

[Alan T]

Originally posted by EagleFan
What happened to your boy Maddux? You've been stroking him the whole thread and now you bail?

I saw many games in the 80s when Ryan was with the Astros that he got shelled. I can't think of many pitchers that I haven't ever seen shelled at some point.

Like I said before, I don't really think Ryan is overrated.. but for a fact I -know- you are underrating Maddux.

[oykib]

Originally posted by EagleFan
What happened to your boy Maddux? You've been stroking him the whole thread and now you bail?

I mentioned him once as being better than Ryan. Then I defended my selection. Ryan played on decent teams. They weren't terrible. Here's a very simple stat:

Maddux - Four Cy Young Awards
Ryan - Zero Cy Young Awards

Maddux was the best NL pitcher during his prime. Ryan was never the best pitcher in his league. Ryan's stats like CG and shutouts are better. But he was playing in an era where there was a lot less offense. When you compare Maddux to the league, he is far superior to Ryan.

I'd take Maddux in a big game over Ryan. Ryan was, as you said, unhittable at his best. But those seven no-hitters are just seven wins. Maddux is just about unbeatable when he's on as well. But he's a lot more likely to be at his best than Ryan.

All things being equal you should go with the strikeout pitcher. But things aren't equal between Maddux and Ryan.

You mentioned Ryan's nearly six thousand Ks. But you didn't mention his nearly three thousand walks. You listed opponent batting average. But you didn't list WHIP or opponent on base average, which are much more closely tied to runs.

[pjstp20]

Originally posted by Blackadar
Read any statistical breakdown of range, players vs. backups, etc. and Jeter is always close to last for shortstops.

So.....what? Jeter should be playing behind Wilson??? If your going to be enamored by statistics there should be no doubt than, that Ryan is better than Maddox. Some people don't realize there is a thing called intangibles that can't be expressed statistically which encompass things like intelligence, instincts, and work ethic.

[Alan T]

Originally posted by pjstp20
So.....what? Jeter should be playing behind Wilson??? If your going to be enamored by statistics there should be no doubt than, that Ryan is better than Maddox. Some people don't realize there is a thing called intangibles that can't be expressed statistically which encompass things like intelligence, instincts, and work ethic.

If the Shortstop was only supposed to help you defensively, then year I would play tons of guys before Jeter, perhaps even Wilson. That does not consider the offensive side in which Jeter had a couple of fantastic years and several better than average ones. Overall that makes Jeter one of the better Shortstops of today. The point is though that he is not a sure fire best shortstop of his era like many claim, since his offense is not as good as several other Shortstops, and his defense is not as good as those same shortstops as well as many others.

Would I want Jeter on my team? Sure if a few other Shortstops were not available before him. His bat makes up for alot of what his defense gives up (although that has been fading the past two years).

[Marmel]

Originally posted by Alan T
The point is though that he is not a sure fire best shortstop of his era like many claim,

Who are these people claiming this? Even if you find me somebody who thinks Jeter is the best SS, show me where they think he is a sure fire best SS.

Like I said before he is one of the top SS's in the league, and I would take him over the others because of the whole package he brings to the table.

By the way, did you see that great play Nomar was involved in last night?

[Marmel]

Originally posted by Blackadar
Just because you play for a team that can afford (and does) buy the World Series doesn't mean that you're a winner. If you think anything else, you're just kidding yourself.

This is my favorite Yankee hater argument.

1) Why didn't the Yankees win in 2001 and 2002?
2) Are the Yankees the only high payroll team? Compare their payroll to some other teams 1998-2002 payrolls. Not a very big differnece.
3) Sorry that we have a team and an owner that plays by the rules of baseball in order to put the best team out on the field every single year.

There is nothing that negates the rest of a person's argument than bringing up the payroll. Does it give an advantage? Of course! Is it the reason they win? Of course not!

[ISiddiqui]

Alan, right on! No one is claiming Jeter is shit. What people are claiming is that he isn't as great defensively as people seem to think he is. His main value is offensive (though he does need to reverse the downward sliding trend).

There is nothing that negates the rest of a person's argument than bringing up the payroll. Does it give an advantage? Of course! Is it the reason they win? Of course not!

What do you mean that it give an advantage but isn't the reason they win? Isn't that a bit contradictory? Unless you are saying it isn't the ONLY reason they win... however, a high payroll has great advantages which allows teams to win.

[Marmel]

I am saying it gives teams like the Yankees an advantage.

But, just from the past year or two, look at these teams:

High Payroll, and they suck: Red Sox, Mets
High Payroll and they are good: Yankees and Braves
Lowpayroll and the suck: Detroit, Tampa
Lowpayroll and they are good: Oakland, Minnesota, Seattle

So while having an advantage is nice, it does not mean you are going to win, and not having that advantage does not mean you are going to lose. I think the only thing it does is give you a longer window of opportunity.

[Marmel]

dola....I really dont want to get into a financial discussion here. It is not the Yankees problem, it is baseball's problem and should be fixed. In fact, instead of blaming the Yankees for their high payroll, people should be blaming the teams that pocket the revenue sharing that goes on and keep a low payroll. They are as much at fault for creating a disparity in payroll and talent as the Yankees.

Anyway, lets keep this as an overrated athlete thread, please.

[McSweeny]

Originally posted by Marmel
By the way, did you see that great play Nomar was involved in last night?

we were simming MLBEuro last night in a chat room and a bunch of us had the sox game on... and when that ended we were like, oh i bet Marm is already posting some wise crack

[oykib]

I agree with you, Marmel. But the Mariners are a high payroll team. They are second tier. But they are at the top of the second tier.

[McSweeny]

Originally posted by Marmel
High Payroll, and they suck: Red Sox

second place teams DO NOT suck

[ISiddiqui]

McSweeny is correct .

So while having an advantage is nice, it does not mean you are going to win, and not having that advantage does not mean you are going to lose.

The 'advantage' however gives you a much better chance to win! The Oakland's and Minnesota's are exceptions to the rule. The playoffs are usually filled with Top 50% payroll teams.

In fact, instead of blaming the Yankees for their high payroll, people should be blaming the teams that pocket the revenue sharing that goes on and keep a low payroll.

To fix both there should a salary cap and salary floor. You can only spend between those two numbers.

[Alan T]

I will tell you what a high payroll/budget gives you:

It gives you bigger room for error. You can bring in some unknown with huge upside and take a risk on him (Like a Jose Contreras). You can get an older pitcher who is pitching great, and if he stops pitching great, you can eat the contract and find someone else.


What it will not do for you is:

Pick the best players. Make wise personal choices.


So that means:

Teams like Baltimore and the Mets that spent like mad, but spent it on really poor personal choices, end up with a payroll that has little return. See the Rangers in this as well.

Teams that do well have spent it wiser.. spent it on their farm system, made better investments such as the Braves and Yankees.


I somewhat hate the Yankees, and acknowledge the extra money is an advantage, but the advantage is as I wrote above. it doesn't auto-buy the championship.

(Even when Florida did it in 1997, they still had to make wise choices on which players to bring in.)

[Daimyo]

Originally posted by pjstp20
If your going to be enamored by statistics there should be no doubt than, that Ryan is better than Maddox.

Sure.. maybe if you're enamored with the wrong statistics...

[Marmel]

Originally posted by McSweeny
we were simming MLBEuro last night in a chat room and a bunch of us had the sox game on... and when that ended we were like, oh i bet Marm is already posting some wise crack

I would have, but the Yankees had a bad outting last night as well.

[thealmighty]

Can't we get a little love here.

High Payroll, and they suck: Red Sox, Mets

Where the hell are the Rangers?

[McSweeny]

ahem

Originally posted by McSweeny
second place teams DO NOT suck

[Neuqua]

Didn't Nomar have like a 25 game hit streak this year? And at this point isn't he batting something like .341?

Shut up Marm

[ISiddiqui]

Nomar is excellent this year. He might be better than A-Rod at this momentary point in time .

[tucker342]

Maybe in some parallel universe Nomar is better than Jeter, but not this one

[Neuqua]

Over time I've become so burnt out over these "Who's better" arguments over the shortstops that I simply do not have the energy to continue this one.

[ISiddiqui]

Maybe in some parallel universe Nomar is better than Jeter, but not this one

No, definetly this one.

[Blackadar]

Originally posted by Marmel
I am saying it gives teams like the Yankees an advantage.

But, just from the past year or two, look at these teams:

High Payroll, and they suck: Red Sox, Mets
High Payroll and they are good: Yankees and Braves
Lowpayroll and the suck: Detroit, Tampa
Lowpayroll and they are good: Oakland, Minnesota, Seattle

So while having an advantage is nice, it does not mean you are going to win, and not having that advantage does not mean you are going to lose. I think the only thing it does is give you a longer window of opportunity.

The Red Sox won 94 games last year. I don't think that qualifies as "sucks".

As for the Yankees, you can talk about high-payroll teams. Then there's the Yanks. Their Payroll is almost 50% higher THAN ANY OTHER TEAM this year. Only about 5 or 6 teams even have half the payroll.

What can that do for you? Bid on Contrares, which has already been pointed out. How about Jeff Weaver when they already had 5 starters? Keep Sterling Hitchcock and his mega-salary around without batting an eyelash. Or picking up Lieber and paying him 3 times as much just to keep him around and see if he heals. Trade for Mondesi to see if he can fit in RF. There's a lot you can do with an extra $60 million that nobody has.

Don't get me wrong. Jeter is a good player. He does a lot of little "baseball" things well. He's probably a good leader. But he is vastly overrated. In the past 3 years, his slugging percentage among AL SS is most similar to Jose Valentin. I don't think Valentin is going to make the HOF.

At best, Jeter is the 3rd best AL SS in his generation by a longshot. He may only be the 5th or 6th best behind Tejada and Omar Vizquel, but that's arguable. If he plays for another 10 years and averages 150 hits a year, he'd be at 3,000 and a couple of hundred homers. That'd get him into the HOF. If he stops or fades out around 34 - 35 years old, he'd have 2,200 hits. Not good enough for a singles/doubles SS who's at best an average defender.

By the way, even Nomar may have a hard time making it. Too many errors and too many injuries. His stats may not look as good once everyone looks back on this home-run-happy era. A-Rods the only lock for it and only if he keeps this up a few more years.

[Calis]

Originally posted by Marmel
By the way, did you see that great play Nomar was involved in last night?

By the way, did you see that great play Nomar was involved in tonight?

[Blackadar]

Yea, you mean the Home Run? His 13th of the year?

[Blackadar]

And I still think Antione Walker should be #1 in the overrated poll.

[Buzzbee]

Originally posted by oykib
Koufax was as great as people believe he was for the six years that he was.

Ok, I know I'm coming in on this thread a little late, and I know this was a post on the first page, but did this make sense to anyone? And does it remind anyone of Bilbo's:

"I don't know half of you as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve"

quote from Lord Of the Rings?

[Schmidty]

How can you people get so worked up over baseball? It's not even a sport!!!!!

If Baseball were a person, it would be at the top of the overrated list.

[lytic]

A lot of good posts in here... Thanks for the great debates!

One more thing... The Yankees are the Microsoft of Baseball. They are turning into a Monopoly. When is someone gonna "cap" their ass?

[larrymcg421]

By the way, Maddux has a 2.09 ERA in 5 World Series starts. Why is he continually maligned as a poor postseason pitcher? His run support in those five games? 2.8

Also, Braves fans are sick and tired of people whining about wide strike zones. If we're all gonna whine about wide strike zones, then can we replay the 1997 NLCS? Thank You.

It's nice that the Maddux-Ryan stat comparison left out almost every stat where Maddux beats Ryan.

[Alan T]

Originally posted by larrymcg421
By the way, Maddux has a 2.09 ERA in 5 World Series starts. Why is he continually maligned as a poor postseason pitcher? His run support in those five games? 2.8

It is usually ignorance that makes people say things like that. I pointed out earlier where Maddux was just as good in the postseason as Ryan was when that comparison was going on.

Its funny sometimes to see what people pull out for reasons why a team crumbles at certain times. The Braves problem for those years was they did not have the hitting in the postseason to get any further. That led to perhaps some of the best World Series games that i can remember (Twins vs Braves series, Blue Jays vs Braves series, etc) where each game was a close pitcher duel heart breaker for them. Their pitching was not their problem in those series, it was their hitting..

The same people are also usually the ones that say Oakland's failure in the postseason recently is because High OBP does not work in the postseason, you have to play small ball, move the runners around, etc.. Those people neglect to look at the statistics and realize that Oakland's pitching fell apart (or at least one of their pitchers has) in the postseason.