07-04-2008, 12:32 PM | #1 | ||
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Jesse Helms Died This Morning
I grew up in North Carolina, and this man was both hated and revered by the citizens there on an almost 50-50 basis.
Here's one of his most famous campaign ads: |
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07-04-2008, 12:41 PM | #2 |
Hockey Boy
Join Date: Oct 2000
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And the world's a better place for it.
Later, Mr. Helms.
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07-04-2008, 12:50 PM | #3 |
Head Coach
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RIP to a good man
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07-04-2008, 01:22 PM | #4 |
Mascot
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The last two post made me laugh.
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07-04-2008, 01:33 PM | #5 |
Head Coach
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Same with me.
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07-04-2008, 01:47 PM | #6 |
Head Coach
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Yeah, first three posts are pretty funny one after another
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07-04-2008, 01:51 PM | #7 | ||||||||
Head Coach
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I grew up in North Carolina. I turned 18 and registered to vote in 1994. I came to Atlanta for college in 1995. I passed by many "quick registration" stations on campus (that would register me to vote in Georgia) so that I could go back up to North Carolina in November 1996 for the sole purpose of being able to claim that I had cast one vote against Jesse Helms in my lifetime. |
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07-04-2008, 02:07 PM | #8 |
Grizzled Veteran
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Having grown up in the Carolinas and met Sen. Helms on at least 3 occaisons, he seemed like a decent guy. I obviously disagree completely with many of hiss racial views, although I do excuse him just a bit because of his age and the era he was raised in, but its a shame he never realized the folley in those views.
All that said, Helms did much good for many people, while also causing his share of harm, probably not unlike many of us. Im not in tears over his death; but would never be heartless enough to say the world is a better place for it. |
07-05-2008, 09:41 AM | #9 |
World Champion Mis-speller
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The first funeral I ever did was while I was in NC. I had never even been to a funeral that was just a grave-side service, and was extremely nervous. Once I arrived, I was informed there was a good chance that Sen. Helms was going to be there. That did nothing at all to help my nerves. Thankfully, he didn't show.
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07-05-2008, 09:53 AM | #10 |
lolzcat
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He'll be sorely missed...
BY THE KLAN.
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07-05-2008, 10:13 AM | #11 |
Pro Starter
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How long until we find out about his secret black family?
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07-05-2008, 11:40 AM | #12 |
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Wow, I thought for sure we would do a thread like this about Ted Kennedy first. Oh well, all in due time.
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07-05-2008, 01:07 PM | #13 |
"Dutch"
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07-05-2008, 01:33 PM | #14 | |
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This really isn't a right vs left thing. Racism and such blind hatred is simply wrong and people who have these beliefs are terrible, terrible people to have making the laws in our country and representing our country and its ideals to the rest of the world, no matter how they vote on most issues or what side of the aisle they sit on. In my younger years I openly wished death on Helms, JiMGA style, because I felt he was such an embarrassment to the state of North Carolina. I regret having that kind of hatred and am not going to celebrate that he is dead. I guess its inevitable, but I am kinda shocked to see this thread start to go down the path of blind right vs left who is better when that isn't at all what anyone here is talking about. Older democrats who cannot let go of their racial views from their younger days need to be out of government too. |
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07-05-2008, 01:47 PM | #15 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Aug 2001
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I'm not celebrating but I sure as hell won't lose a wink of slep over it. people like helms who try to spread ignorance and hatred are beter off gone from the gene pool.
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07-05-2008, 02:00 PM | #16 | |
Hall Of Famer
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Quote:
If you're shocked, then you haven't been paying close attention. It's why I didn't bother to mention Helms' death before this thread popped up. I see a man who stuck to his principles in admirable fashion and who definitely carried the courage of his convictions who is likely worth any 10 elected officials from either side of the aisle today. From his NYT obit comes one of the better quotes I've seen this week “I didn’t come to Washington to be a ‘yes man’ for any president, Democrat or Republican,” he said in an interview in 1989. “I didn’t come to Washington to get along and win any popularity contests.”. Sadly, I don't have much hope that we'll see many of his character again & as a nation we're a lot poorer for that. But considering how little he would have been concerned with the criticism from quarters like FOFC, I'm going to just let those who can't understand that just rant & rave. I suspect he wouldn't mind a bit.
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"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis Last edited by JonInMiddleGA : 07-05-2008 at 02:03 PM. |
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07-05-2008, 02:28 PM | #17 | |
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I think Madeleine Albright, Clinton's Secretary of State, summed up Helms the best: "He was the kindest, most infuriating, politest, most aggravating and nicest politician I had to deal with in the United States Senate." |
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07-05-2008, 02:32 PM | #18 |
Coordinator
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It is admirable that he stuck to who he was and held his belief's so dear.
Its just sad that he couldn't have been a decent human being and still hold those convictions. |
07-05-2008, 02:39 PM | #19 | |
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Thanks. I started to reply about 3 times and ended up erasing everything I wrote. That sums up what I was trying to spit out very nicely. |
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07-05-2008, 02:42 PM | #20 | ||||
Grizzled Veteran
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Location: San Jose, CA
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Gay people can be pure sleaze..like his granddaughter:
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hxxp://atheism.about.com/b/2004/10/30/jesse-helms-gay-granddaughter-uses-him-for-election-advantage.htm Quote:
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I guess, considering if Jesse had his way, I wouldn't have been born...so there really wasn't any reason for me to be a fan of his. I guess at least half of a whole state disagreed with me for many, many years. It's not really puzzling. It's "Nurth Cuh-lina". If any family misses him, sorry...but...yeah fuck him.
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07-05-2008, 04:41 PM | #21 |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Jan 2006
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If being a racist and a bigot is admirable then I guess Helms was very admirable indeed. How is sticking to such hate-filled convictions at all admirable?
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07-05-2008, 05:50 PM | #22 | ||
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What year was this from? |
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07-05-2008, 06:46 PM | #23 | |
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That's exactly what I've been trying to figure out while reading through this thread.
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07-05-2008, 08:04 PM | #24 |
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You have to seperate the two thngs:
A) he was a racist and a bigot and in general a pig. B) He didn't give a shit what you or anyone else thought of him, he stuck with his beliefs, no mater how foul and pathetic. He didn't cowtow to the politically correct mafia. Part A he should and rightfully is despised for by, I HOPE, a majority of people Part B I can at least understand people admiring, because in this day and age of saying the right things to the right people and not pising anyone off for the sake of getting elected, he didn't and even I can see that it took some balls to do that for as long as he did. |
07-05-2008, 08:10 PM | #25 |
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If his beliefs are accurately described in A), then no, I really don't have to seperate them.
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07-05-2008, 08:44 PM | #26 |
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Neither do I personally, but I was trying to help people understand JIMG's PoV.
He admires the fact that Helms, or I suppose anyone could stick to their beliefs in the face of recrimination as helms did throughout his career.
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07-05-2008, 09:18 PM | #27 |
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07-05-2008, 09:59 PM | #28 |
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Who said he didn't admire him too?
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07-05-2008, 11:03 PM | #29 |
Coordinator
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We are talking about JIMG here... |
07-05-2008, 11:55 PM | #30 |
Dark Cloud
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He probably didn't want to live with the possibility of a President Obama.
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07-06-2008, 01:51 AM | #31 |
General Manager
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I'm not going to judge someone who was raised in a different time, who's life I didn't lead, etc, but this guy being in office so long sure does say something about North Carolina.
"Sticking to your convictions" isn't really a compliment, if that's the best anyone can say about the guy, then that's pretty telling. It's not like he stood up for unpopular opinions - he was from North Carolina, where his opinions were widespread enough to keep him in office as long as he wanted. That didn't exactly take courage. At best, Helms is like your drunken great-uncle at Thankgiving, he says embarassing things, you try to keep him away from the kids and your girlfriend, but at least he's polite when he's not talking about "the blacks". Last edited by molson : 07-06-2008 at 02:02 AM. |
07-06-2008, 02:54 AM | #32 |
"Dutch"
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07-06-2008, 09:35 AM | #33 |
Mascot
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out before lock
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07-06-2008, 12:30 PM | #34 |
Resident Alien
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Bye-bye to another guy who won't be missed.
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07-06-2008, 12:54 PM | #35 | |
Hockey Boy
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Royal Oak, MI
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Quote:
No, it's not. There's nothing admirable about sticking to bigotted, unexamined beliefs. Nothing at all. I understand he comes from a different time and a different place, but he lived a long, long time. Things changed considerably over the span of his lifetime. What would have been truly admirable is for him to admit that he was flat-wrong and apologize for all the harm he did. Really examining or re-examining one's beliefs and admitting that what you originally thought is very, very hard. Too many people are too proud, too pig-headed, or too arrogant to do so. It takes a special kind of courage to really look at things and, if you determine your beliefs were wrong, fess up to it. It's easy to sit back and say "I believe what I believe because that's how it always was and that's how it always will be. Aint nohin' gonna change that."
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07-06-2008, 02:46 PM | #36 |
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I don't believe the racist element of his beliefs was prominent in his last several years in the Senate. He certainly didn't bow to Political Correctness, and for that I cannot fault him. Even that said, I wasn't a fan. I was glad to see him retire.
He did hold his ground and stick to his guns though. I think my favorite example of his single mindedness was when he defeated the nomination of William Weld(sp?) as Ambassador to Mexico, and did so with little to no support from his fellow Republicans. Weld was a sound nominee, but had held a position opposed to Helms on some issue. Helms refused to bring the vote to committee. When more moderate Republicans , led by Dick Lugar, attempted to call Helms on it, Helms outmaneuvered them with procedural rules. Not something that I found particularly admirable, but he wasn't going to let reasonable minds prevail. Not when he had made up his mind. |
07-06-2008, 04:55 PM | #37 |
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07-06-2008, 07:15 PM | #38 |
Coordinator
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What I can't believe about this thread is that "not being a racist fuck" is being referred to as "political correctness."
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07-06-2008, 07:57 PM | #39 | |
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No, its not, not directly at least. I know I'm not condoning his position on things in any way. All I said and others, is that Helms never gave in to those who said "OOOHHH you can't say THAT" and never towed the line for the sake of popularity. He was a racist fuck, no argument from me. But the whole issue developed because someone admired the fact that he DIDN'T cave in to the popular sentiment to hide what he really felt. |
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07-06-2008, 08:09 PM | #40 | |
Head Coach
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This is all kind of a silly argument, because it's not like his positions ever put him in danger of losing re-election. The only popular sentiment that he needed to worry about was in North Carolina, and he was right in line with it.
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07-06-2008, 08:17 PM | #41 | |
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He was elected to the Senate for 30 years - how much popularity do you really think he sacrificed? His re-elections show that his views WERE the popular sentiment in North Carolina. Last edited by molson : 07-06-2008 at 08:20 PM. |
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07-06-2008, 09:26 PM | #42 |
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not to sound trite or anything, but umm, WHERE is the Senate? Did they somehow move it to Charlotte or Raleigh for those 30 years? No, it was right there in DC as always. The vitriol and venom of the general populace were on him for most all of his career. Sure he was popular in North Carolina, but thats relly irrelevant to the situation we're talking about. He faced the continued attacks of the general media. He also didn't give a shit. how many other politicians can we say that about? Not too damned many, and fewer yet that had 30 year careers. yes he was a schmuck and a piss poor excuse for a human being, but if you, like JIMG, are really trying to find some positive trait about the man, then you can certainly look at his steadfastness and unwavering belief in the things he held to be true. Yes, those things were dispicable, sad and pretty much entirely wrong, but no matter his image in the country, he stuck to them. Thats all I'm saying. You act like I'm trying tod efend the man. I'm not, but I will defend JIMG's PoV because its valid. (holy shit someone shoot me now, I can't believe I just said that...) |
07-06-2008, 09:32 PM | #43 | |
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EXACTLY!!!!! |
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07-06-2008, 09:38 PM | #44 |
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There is nothing admirable about sticking with outdated ideas, especially hateful ones like racism. It's just sad, really. I honestly don't care what the rest of this guy's "legacy" was. Racism, especially from someone in this guy's position, is not a character fault that can be so easily brushed aside.
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07-06-2008, 09:40 PM | #45 | ||
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I hate to let facts get in the way of utter horsecrap but ... Quote:
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07-06-2008, 10:06 PM | #46 | |
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Well I'd hate for reading comprehension to get in the way of "utter horsecrap", but I never claimed he didn't have a close race. I claimed that his positions didn't put him in danger of losing. What I mean is that the same positions that guaranteed 45% of the state to vote against him, also guaranteed him more than 50%. I don't think he ever felt pressured to change his positions, because they helped him more than they hurt him.
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07-06-2008, 10:29 PM | #47 | |
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I'm certainly not from North Carolina, but I have to say that you are very arrogant and short sighted to state that his "positions" (clarified as racist views throughout the thread) are what guaranteed him more than 50% of the vote. The fact that you can claim everyone who voted for him is a racists is a very poor thing. Are you ready to state everyone who supports / votes for Jesse Jackson, Cynthia McKinney, Al Sharpton, etc. are racists? Jesse, Cynthia and Al all have positions of extreme racism from which they do not budge. So does that mean all voters who support them are also racists? Or do they just make compromises to try and share a little good ol' power? Or is it something else? |
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07-06-2008, 10:46 PM | #48 | ||||
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Okay, it's not that hard to follow. Jesse Helms is a racist. His racism influences his political views. Those views appeal to people in North Carolina. That doesn't make all of them racist. For example, the ad at the top of the thread is definitely influenced by Helms bigotry. However, that ad is certainly effective for people who aren't bigots, but still opposed to affirmative action. Quote:
Well since I never said that people voting for Helms were racist, I would certainly not say the same here. Quote:
Well then that means that they deserve the same respect that some people in this thread want to give to Helms, right? Still, your analysis isn't really true. Jackson's "Hymietown" remarks certainly hurt his political career (and Jerry Brown's presidential bid in 1992), and because of that he has certainly backed away from such anti-semitism. Quote:
Sorry dude, but you're reading something into my post that just isn't there. This is one of my big pet peeves here and it happens quite a bit. People get their idea of what they want to argue against, and then run with it, no matter what the other side is actually saying. If you can't respond to what I'm actually saying, then why bother responding at all?
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07-06-2008, 11:32 PM | #49 |
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Actually you did and supported it in your response post. You are saying that racist views appeal to people in North Carolina. Right?
I'm just saying that is a very arrogant and short sighted thing to imply. It is also fair to say that Helm's had many arrogant and short sighted beliefs and views. Maybe the two of you share more in common than you would care to admit. Last edited by Grammaticus : 07-06-2008 at 11:33 PM. |
07-06-2008, 11:44 PM | #50 | |
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Nope. Jesse Helms (racist) is against affirmative action. North Carolina voter (not racist) is also against affirmative action. Thus, Jesse Helms (racist) anti-affirmative action ad will appeal to North Carolina voter (not racist). You seem to want to argue agaisnt someone who is claiming that half of North Carolina voters are racist. You're wasting your time here, because that's not what I said, it's not what I'm saying, and it's not what I'm gonna say.
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