Top 5 Shortstops

[Bomber]

Who do you think are the top 5 SS in baseball?

[CentralMassHokie]

Does ARod still qualify?

If so:

A-Rod
Tejada
Nomar
Jeter
Guillen

If A-Rod doesn't count, add in Jimmy Rollins.

[Vince]

1. A-Rod
2. Tejada
3. Renteria
4. Guillen
5. Furcal

Jeter would be 6th on my list.

[Bomber]

A-Rod doesn't count. He won't be playing SS as long as DJ and Torre are there.

Based solely on last year:

1. Tejada
2. Jeter
3. Renteria
4. Rollins
5. Young

[oykib]

Originally Posted by Vince

1. A-Rod
2. Tejada
3. Renteria
4. Guillen
5. Furcal

Jeter would be 6th on my list.

Jeter's had a better career-- as has Nomar-- than anyone on this list besides A-Rod. As a matter of fact, it's not even close for anyone on this list besides Tejada.

1. A-Rod
2. Jeter
3. Nomar
4. Tejada
5. Renteria


If we count Larkin as still being active, he becomes my number two and bumps everyone down one and Renteria off the list.

[VPI97]

Larkin #1

[Subby]

The media told me that Jeter is a great glove man.

[Subby]

With fantastic range.

[Fonzie]

Based on last year only:

1. Tejada
2. Guillen
3. Young
4. Rollins
5. Jeter

Honorable Mention: Renteria, Furcal

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Subby

The media told me that Jeter is a great glove man.

Jeter is the OJ of shortstops the way he cuts down runners.

[Bomber]

After doing a bit more research, for 2004 only:

1. Tejada
2. Jeter
3. Guillen
4. Wilson
5a. Rollins
5b. Young

[Bomber]

Here is the stuff I looked at:

Wilson:
ZR: .859
VORP: 50.6
OPS+: 107

Greene:
ZR: .847
VORP: 37.6
OPS+: 112

Guillen:
ZR: .837
VORP: 70.5
OPS+: 141

Crosby:
ZR: .870
VORP: 23.0
OPS+: 91

Tejada:
ZR: .861
VORP: 73.0
OPS+: 126

Jeter:
ZR: .847
VORP: 59.7
OPS+: 116

Renteria:
ZR: .855
VORP: 27.3
OPS+: 90

Young:
ZR: .810
VORP: 60.1
OPS+: 106

Rollins:
ZR: .858
VORP: 50.9
OPS+: 105

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Bomber

Here is the stuff I looked at:

Obviously not when it came to Jeter since based on that criteria, Guillen easily out ranks Jeter.

[mckerney]

1. Rodriguez
2. Tejada
3. Young
4. Rollins
5. Guillen

[Bomber]

Originally Posted by Danny Drickman

Obviously not when it came to Jeter since based on that criteria, Guillen easily out ranks Jeter.

I gave Jeter the edge because he had better defensive season, though marginally. Plus I'm a Yankees fan, so I might be a tad bit biased.

[General Mike]

1. Tejada
2. Renteria
3. Nomar
4. Jeter
5. Guillen

[Bomber]

Originally Posted by Danny Drickman

Obviously not when it came to Jeter since based on that criteria, Guillen easily out ranks Jeter.

Plus some of these lists are absolutely ridiculous. No way is Jeter not a top 5 SS.

[CentralMassHokie]

If you're basing it solely on 2004, Jeter's probably 4th.

If you're basing on the careers of active SS, Jeter's probably 3rd.

If you're basing it on career path and expectations for 2005, Jeter's probably marginally between 3rd and 4th, at best. Last year was the first year he's rated as even a good shortstop defensively, and according to most metrics, he was barely above average (3 fielding runs saved above average).

Jeter's range has been horrifically bad, but to this point, his offense has been able to carry it. It's looking like that may not be the case much longer. We'll find out in 2005 if the same can be said for Nomar (though he's never been as bad defensively as Jeter).

[Bomber]

What would you say for careers of active SS?

1. A-Rod
2. Tejada
3. Jeter
4. Nomar

2005 expectations?

1. Tejada
2. ?
3. Jeter
4. Young
5. Renteria

[Bomber]

Originally Posted by CentralMassHokie

Jeter's range has been horrifically bad, but to this point, his offense has been able to carry it. It's looking like that may not be the case much longer.

I think Jeter will be fine again offensively. He wasn't very consistent last year, but had he started out better than terrible he would have put together a really great year. Also I think his defense is improving as a result of A-Rod being at third, and better positioning himself. Hopefully, this will be proven by him maintaining his improved defense in 2005.

[korme]

Originally Posted by oykib

Jeter's had a better career-- as has Nomar-- than anyone on this list besides A-Rod. As a matter of fact, it's not even close for anyone on this list besides Tejada.

1. A-Rod
2. Jeter
3. Nomar
4. Tejada
5. Renteria


If we count Larkin as still being active, he becomes my number two and bumps everyone down one and Renteria off the list.

My line of thinking was that it was as of RIGHT NOW, who is the best. If we are looking at careers, I'd also put Larkin at 2 behind A-Rod, but if it is active only.

1. Renteria
2. Tejada
3. Rollins
4. Guillen
5. Cabrera

[Crapshoot]

As much as I dislike Jeter, his defense was vastly improved this season (not Gold Glove, but far better), and he's an allaround good hitter. At worst, he's a top 5 SS given the offense.

[Bomber]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

My line of thinking was that it was as of RIGHT NOW, who is the best. If we are looking at careers, I'd also put Larkin at 2 behind A-Rod, but if it is active only.

1. Renteria
2. Tejada
3. Rollins
4. Guillen
5. Cabrera

Rollins, Guillen, Renteria, and Cabrera over Jeter for right now? Are you smoking crack? Guillen is 29 and has had one good year. Rollins had his first decent year with the bat, but has a career OBP of .325. He also had a lower RF than most SS last season. Cabrera had lower RF and ZR stats than Jeter last year, and is a far worse hitter, best highlighted by his career OBP of .316 and OPS of .725. Renteria like the rest is better defensively over his career than Jeter, but was only marginally better last year and again has a worse bat than DJ.

I always forget about Larkin, he picked a bad time to come up right in between Larkin and the Holy Trinity of SS (plus Tejada). He's obviously much better with the glove than Jeter, but DJ is going to blow all his offensive numbers away.

[Desnudo]

Speaking of top shortstops, I would rank Alex Rodriguez as the #1 most likely to be gay, or at leat bi, but never, ever admit it, even to himself. Am I the only one who gets that vibe when they watch him play?

[korme]

Originally Posted by Bomber

I always forget about Larkin, he picked a bad time to come up right in between Larkin and the Holy Trinity of SS (plus Tejada). He's obviously much better with the glove than Jeter, but DJ is going to blow all his offensive numbers away.

No, he isn't. Jeter has 4 championships, Larkin 1. Larkin won 3 gold gloves in an NL era dominated by Ozzie Smith, so that is something there. Let's not forget he won the NL MVP in 1995, and then followed it up with being the first 30-30 SS ever, in 1996.

Right now, I'd say he has had a better career, just hasn't been on as many great teams.

[Blackadar]

If I'm putting together a team now...

1. Tejada - 28 years old, OPS of .894 last year. Easily the best SS in the league.
2. Renteria - 29 years old, decent hitter, great fielder
3. Michael Young - 28, decent glove, looks like he could be a monster hitter
4. Guillen - best hitting SS in the league last year
5. Rollins- How can you not like a 26 year old SS with pop and a glove?

Next group: Nomar (my prediction as the biggest FA bargin this year), Jack Wilson, Cabrera, Jeter, Michael Young.

[Bomber]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

No, he isn't. Jeter has 4 championships, Larkin 1. Larkin won 3 gold gloves in an NL era dominated by Ozzie Smith, so that is something there. Let's not forget he won the NL MVP in 1995, and then followed it up with being the first 30-30 SS ever, in 1996.

Right now, I'd say he has had a better career, just hasn't been on as many great teams.

You're definitely smoking crack if you don't think Jeter is going to blow by anything Larkin has done offensively in his career.

[Bomber]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

If I'm putting together a team now...

1. Tejada - 28 years old, OPS of .894 last year. Easily the best SS in the league.
2. Renteria - 29 years old, decent hitter, great fielder
3. Michael Young - 28, decent glove, looks like he could be a monster hitter
4. Guillen - best hitting SS in the league last year
5. Rollins- How can you not like a 26 year old SS with pop and a glove?

Next group: Nomar (my prediction as the biggest FA bargin this year), Jack Wilson, Cabrera, Jeter, Michael Young.

Jeter is 30. Give the man some love. Guillen is 29 and has one good year. Renteria wasn't all that great last year. Michael Young isn't good enough defensively to play short. Rollins has pop? One year in a hitter's park doesn't mean you have pop.

[Bomber]

Originally Posted by CentralMassHokie

3 fielding runs saved above average

Where did you find this stat? Can you give us some for the rest of the SS being discussed to compare?

[CentralMassHokie]

Let's see, if I had to do active careers, I've probably go something like:

1) ARod
2) Larkin
3a) Nomar
3b) Jeter
5) Tejada

Nomar gets the slight nod over Jeter due to a better glove and better bat, up until this past season. Jeter has the longevity and the rings. Larkin's sustained peak gives him the #2 spot for maybe another season or 2 before both Nomar and Jeter pass him, unless they both implode.

For 2005:
Tejada
Guillen
Nomar
Jeter
Lugo/Renteria

I think Guillen is for real -- people always underestimate him due to playing in Safeco and the Kingdome. Nomar's bat is still better than Jeter's, and I think last year's average defense from Jeter was more due to the pitching staff and having ARod around him than anything.

#5 is simply the fact that I don't think highly of anybody else -- Rollins and Wilson are not likely to have great seasons again (offensively), Young is maybe the worst defensive SS in the league, Larkin is 90 years old, Crosby/Greene I like but I'm not sure they're going to have fantastic offensive years yet. Cabrera is maybe the 3rd most overrated player in baseball behind Jeter and Varitek. And I'm a Sox fan.

So Lugo and Renteria both win, because I can't tell them apart. Renteria has shown that he basically kills lefties but can't hit righties. Lugo has shown that he can hit everbody, but not as well as Renteria. So I can't pick.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Bomber

Jeter is 30. Give the man some love. Guillen is 29 and has one good year. Renteria wasn't all that great last year. Michael Young isn't good enough defensively to play short. Rollins has pop? One year in a hitter's park doesn't mean you have pop.

We all understand that you're a NY Yankees "homer" that is still smarting from the Yankees now owning The Biggest Choke in Sports History coupled with the Red Sox Winning the World Series. What an awful, bitter pill it must be to swallow.

You're entitled to your deluded belief that Jeter is a great SS (or God, whichever you prefer). Most of us see him as a decent hitter who is very protected by a high-dollar, high-profile lineup and a mediocre fielder with limited range. Of course, that's an improvement over this past year, when we was a decent hitter who is very protected by a high-dollar, high-profile lineup and a poor fielder with limited range.

[CentralMassHokie]

Originally Posted by Bomber

Where did you find this stat? Can you give us some for the rest of the SS being discussed to compare?

It's from Baseball Prospectus on the Davenport Translation (DT) Cards (RAA2):

Let me grab some:
Jeter 3
Tejada 16
Garciaparra -2
Guillen 13
Renteria -12
Cabrera -3
Wilson 16
Rollins -10
Larkin -1
Vizquel 0
Young -11

They don't have the rookies yet. The thing to bear in mind is that these are cumulative stats, so playing time has an effect. You'll also want to look at the year to year stuff, since defensive value can differ greatly based on pitching staff, luck, etc.

Larkin's a great example though -- he was very good from 89-92, good from 93-99 (with one bad year mixed in), and has dropped below average from 2000 on (when he turned 36!)

[Bomber]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

We all understand that you're a NY Yankees "homer" that is still smarting from the Yankees now owning The Biggest Choke in Sports History coupled with the Red Sox Winning the World Series. What an awful, bitter pill it must be to swallow.

You're entitled to your deluded belief that Jeter is a great SS (or God, whichever you prefer). Most of us see him as a decent hitter who is very protected by a high-dollar, high-profile lineup and a mediocre fielder with limited range. Of course, that's an improvement over this past year, when we was a decent hitter who is very protected by a high-dollar, high-profile lineup and a poor fielder with limited range.

I'm the farthest thing from a Yankee "homer". I don't like any of the Yankees offseason moves with the exception of the Johnson trade. Until this past season I always held Jeter has the lowest of the Holy Trinity of SS. To say the guy is merely a decent hitter is ridiculous. He's been a good to great hitting SS over his whole career, and should, barring injury, finish with HoF credentials.

He's been a mediocre fielder, but is now at least slightly above average, well he was last season and I for one believe that he will continue to be one for at least a few more years. He had a really great season hitting last year with the exception of the first two months. I understand a lot of guys hate him because of the media hype he gets for his "intangibles" and being a winner, I don't buy any of that, but to not believe Jeter is not a top 5 SS, at least, should be criminal.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Bomber

I'm the farthest thing from a Yankee "homer". I don't like any of the Yankees offseason moves with the exception of the Johnson trade. Until this past season I always held Jeter has the lowest of the Holy Trinity of SS. To say the guy is merely a decent hitter is ridiculous. He's been a good to great hitting SS over his whole career, and should, barring injury, finish with HoF credentials.

He's been a mediocre fielder, but is now at least slightly above average, well he was last season and I for one believe that he will continue to be one for at least a few more years. He had a really great season hitting last year with the exception of the first two months. I understand a lot of guys hate him because of the media hype he gets for his "intangibles" and being a winner, I don't buy any of that, but to not believe Jeter is not a top 5 SS, at least, should be criminal.

So fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But there's quite of few of us who don't think he's even a top-5 SS. Stop trying to tell us our rankings are wrong.

You asked. We answered. Don't bitch when you don't like the answers.

[Bomber]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

So fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But there's quite of few of us who don't think he's even a top-5 SS. Stop trying to tell us our rankings are wrong.

You asked. We answered. Don't bitch when you don't like the answers.

Well anyone who doesn't is obviously biased against Jeter, his media made image, and him being the face of the hated Yankees. But hey, if that's cool with you its cool with me.

[CentralMassHokie]

Even I, as one of the bigger Sox fans you'll ever find, would be hard pressed to not include Jeter in the top 5 SS in baseball last year or going into next year.

His bat has simply always been good enough to carry his glove. If he moved to 2B, he'd probably be one of the best (maybe the best) 2B in baseball. But he's a douchebag and won't do what's best for his team.

[korme]

Originally Posted by Bomber

You're definitely smoking crack if you don't think Jeter is going to blow by anything Larkin has done offensively in his career.

Jeter will never be league MVP

NEVER

[Bomber]

Originally Posted by CentralMassHokie

But he's a douchebag and won't do what's best for his team.

Personally, I like to believe Jeter would move if asked, I've never heard otherwise, but Torre is never going to ask him to move. He's one of Joe's "guys".

[Bomber]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

Jeter will never be league MVP

NEVER

What does that have to do with him passing every career offensive mark Barry Larkin has set? Also I dare you to find me a season Larkin had that was more impressive offensively than Jeter's 1999.

[LoneStarGirl]

I think you all are forgetting one great defensive shortstop. Adam Everitt. He was injured for most of last year, so maybe you have forgotten about him. But before that he was amazing. And next year he will be even better.

[CentralMassHokie]

I don't think it's even debatable that if Jeter plays another 2 (maybe 3) years at his present level, he'll pass Larkin on the list of all time great SS.

A-Rod already has.

Nomar's in the same boat as Jeter. He really needs another 2 or 3 years of plus production to pass Larkin.

Larkin, right now, is a bit of a fringe HOF case, after 18 years (or however long it has been). He's an Eddie Murray-type. About 5 seasons of insanely good baseball spread around a long career of just being good (relatively). Jeter and Nomar would be fringe HOF cases right now (neither would get in, but they'd be fringe cases).

My guess is that, of the current crop of SS, ARod, Larkin, Nomar, and Jeter all get into the Hall. But that's projected a few more good years out of the big 3.

[Bomber]

Originally Posted by LoneStarGirl

I think you all are forgetting one great defensive shortstop. Adam Everitt. He was injured for most of last year, so maybe you have forgotten about him. But before that he was amazing. And next year he will be even better.

No, I don't think we're missing anyone. If this was best defensive SS maybe, but its not.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Jeter is the OJ of shortstops the way he cuts down runners.

In that he's only thrown out two in his life?

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Bomber

What does that have to do with him passing every career offensive mark Barry Larkin has set? Also I dare you to find me a season Larkin had that was more impressive offensively than Jeter's 1999.

I dare you to give me the stats Barry Larkin would have put up if his prime had been in this inflated offensive era.

SI

[Bomber]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I dare you to give me the stats Barry Larkin would have put up if his prime had been in this inflated offensive era.

SI

People didn't use steroids in the 90s? The ball wasn't "juiced"?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Bomber

People didn't use steroids in the 90s? The ball wasn't "juiced"?

You're trying to tell me that all those other factors (expansion, smaller parks, etc) that don't fit into those two categories didn't exist? You're trying to claim the early 90s was as offensive an era as the late 90s? You have got to be kidding me.

SI

[Schmidty]

As much as I hate the Yankees, I LOVE Jeter.

Granted, that's only because he's from my hometown of Kalamazoo, and I saw some of his games at K'zoo Central, but still.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

You're trying to tell me that all those other factors (expansion, smaller parks, etc) that don't fit into those two categories didn't exist? You're trying to claim the early 90s was as offensive an era as the late 90s? You have got to be kidding me.

SI

You might as well give it up.

Anyone who doesn't think Jeter is God is obviously biased and blind in Bomber's eyes. No one is entitled to a different opinion.

What a fuckhead.

[stevew]

I sure hope Rollins isnt gonna want a similar contract to "past a diving" Jeter.

[Bomber]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

You're trying to tell me that all those other factors (expansion, smaller parks, etc) that don't fit into those two categories didn't exist? You're trying to claim the early 90s was as offensive an era as the late 90s? You have got to be kidding me.

SI

Its not like his peak didn't continue into the late 90s. The odd thing I notice about Larkin's stats is a certain little blip in home runs in 1996. For a guy who never hit more than 20 in his career and would never hit more than 17 after, doesn't 33 seems like quite a breakout. Reminds me of a smaller verision of Brady Anderson's 1996 season.

Anways, Camden Yards was built in 1992, Jacobs Field in 1994, Coors Field in 1995. Baseball expanded in 1993 with two National League teams. The Bash Brothers had long since been using steroids, not that anyone would admit it then. Larkin was the NL MVP in 1995. You're going to tell me he didn't peak in the midst of all of these factors increasing offense?