ESPN NFL Football

[John Galt]

I still haven't bought an NFL game to play on my Xbox, but the reviews are looking really good for ESPN's game. If things are roughly equal, I'll probably just go the non-EA route, but I wanted to get some opinions of people who have played both games. Here are a couple of the reviews:

http://www.operationsports.com/revie...ame=nfl2k4xbox

http://www.teamxbox.com/view_reviews.php?id=561

[The_herd]

I've always been more of a fan of the Sega Sports games over the EA games. I haven't played this years versions yet, but
the ESPN series has always felt more like real football to me. But I don't play console games for Franchise mode, I have FOF for that. That seems to be one of the things that gets people attached to the Madden games.

[TroyF]

I'll have it later on today and will post my thoughts on it after I give it a quick test drive.

TroyF

[kingnebwsu]

I made it through almost a whole season of ESPN last year, plus several online games. In this year's NCAA, I made it through almost three games (cough).

E-A-Sucks...if it's in our game...it really sucks!

[Balldog]

I'm gonna pick it up tonight, I was going to try to wait a few weeks but I need to play on Live.

[Philliesfan980]

Just got it. Plays very nice. Has the best graphics I've ever seen in a football game (or any sports video game for that matter). Really anxious to try the coach mode. Should be fun.

[illinifan999]

So much negativity towards EA......


I hate Sega football games. I made the mistake of getting 2k2, then tried 2k3......I'm still trying to forget that.

[Philliesfan980]

I think Madden is a good game, if not great. I just think that NFL2k4 plays a more realistic game of football.

I'm not bashing either game, to each his own

[illinifan999]

I could never see how people said its more realistic. Everytime I played no matter what level it was on, it was at least 4 broken tackles every play. I did like some of the animations more, and it had more options for player accessories but taht was it for me. I will rent this game once again just to see this first person mode thing though.

[MizzouRah]

Originally posted by TroyF
I'll have it later on today and will post my thoughts on it after I give it a quick test drive.

TroyF

Anxiously awaiting. Madden has been a blast, but I'm always open to something different and the ESPN stuff sounds innovative.


Todd

[Neuqua]

I personally am not having as much fun with Madden as I am with NCAA (which has been the case two years straight now.)

If the reviews are good enough, I'll definetly check out ESPN NFL Football.

[TroyF]

OK, here is my very early impressions of ESPN NFL:

1) for the franchise nuts, this probably isn't your game. The franchise mode is solid, but I can't imagine it is as good as Madden's from what I've heard.

2) I'm not someone who compliments graphics. I usually don't care how graphics look, I only care how the game plays. The graphics on this game are jaw dropping. The colors are vibrant. The stadiums are detailed. You can actually see lightning in the background when it rains. The shadows move the longer the game goes on. They are simply incredible.

3) The crib feature is fluff, but I have to admit it's kind of fun to play around with a little. I won't spend a ton of time in my "crib", but I do like the different options and it does add to the game.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, gameplay.

I've only played a couple of games on pro level. This level is very easy. When I cranked it up for a quick practice session, it was the NFL2K3 game I know and love. (I'll explain more of this in a second)

The first person mode? I have not had this much fun with a video game since the Tecmo Bowl days. Being the running back and picking your hole is a blast. Being the QB and trying to look through the holes in the line for a passing lane is also a joy. I've heard some people complain that switching from QB to WR or defensive players in this mode can make you a little tipsy. I solved that problem by just being one guy through the entire play. If I'm the QB, I'll let my WR catch the ball and make the moves.

Defense in first person is just as fun. Nothing like being the MLB and trying to diagnose a play. I have had a couple of sacks from the DE postion. I blew up a running play with a blitzing safety. I had another play read perfectly, started moving to my right and was just destroyed by the offensive guard who got out to block me. One second I had the RB in my sites, the next I'm looking at blue sky and hearing the crowd cheer as the RB took off for a first down.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Presentation:

Incredible again. Everything is ESPN. At the end of each week in franchise mode, you get NFL Primetime. It has Chris Berman giving the scores of every game and throwing in 2-4 highlights per week.

The draft looks similar to last year. You are "one the clock" with your picks. You can see the ticker at the bottom of the screen while you are deciding on your selection.

Background music on the menus is all ESPN. From their NFL games to Primetime to the Sports Center theme, it's all there.

You can still save your replays in the game as well. Nothing like ripping off a 45 yard TD run and saving it for future use. (those of us with the X-Box hard drive can save A LOT of those replays)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, now for the negatives.

1) It doesn't bother me at all, but some people are bothered by the "floating" type of ball in the NFL2K series. It is still there. Every QB doesn't throw 300MPH like in Madden and NCAA. Touch passes really look like touch passes. If you were bothered by that before, you'll still have that problem.

2) The running animation is still a little goofy. It's like the players arms don't move enough as they are striding. It's a small detail, but for those who get bothered by things like that, you've been warned.

3) The running game on the higher difficulty levels is still like the NFL. Running in the NFL is a lesson in patience. You get 3 yards one play, 4 yards the next, 2 yards the play after that. Eventually you pick some holes and start gashing the D for bigger gains. In my experience with Madden and NCAA, it seems like on 75% of the carries you either get zero yards or you get 10 or more yards. ESPN is a different type of game in that regard. It is probably a 2-5 yard gain 75% of the time. I LOVE this. Others hate it. Again, you've been warned.

4) Why on Earth does every company assume that I want to listen to Rap music in my video games?!?! The sountracks you can unlock and a lot of the PA music is hip/hop rap. I wish to God they'd have more rock for those of us that don't like rap.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

There you have my initial impressions. I can say for certain this is my favorite football game of the year. Yes, *I* will play this game more than NCAA. The first person mode was pulled off perfectly if you can live with not changing players. There are sliders for those who feel there are to many broken tackles in the game.

We'll see if I still have these thoughts two weeks from now. Feel free to ask questions, I'll get to them in between games.

TroyF

[GrantDawg]

The main thing I remember about 2K3 was how hard it was to do anything with your rosters and such. It has been a year so I can't remember exactly all the things that were "troublesome" but I do remember that the game constantly unsorts lists, and during the draft and free agency it made everything a major pain. Is that still a problem?

[TroyF]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
The main thing I remember about 2K3 was how hard it was to do anything with your rosters and such. It has been a year so I can't remember exactly all the things that were "troublesome" but I do remember that the game constantly unsorts lists, and during the draft and free agency it made everything a major pain. Is that still a problem?

Those problems are still there. It happens in the combine as well. The depth chart is a breeze, but the sorting does annoy me to a point. IMHO, I think NFL2K's gameplay is superior to Maddens and always has been. I usually overlook some of the interface issues because of that.

I'm not sure I'll spend a ton of time drafting anyway. On NCAA I found myself simming dynasty mode more than actually playing the game. With ESPN, I keep wanting to fire it up to play another game.

If you aren't like that, you will get annoyed quick with the sorting problems.

TroyF

[Neuqua]

Admittedly this first person mode really intrigues me, if it were implimented correctly I think I may just end up converting to ESPN. I won't get the chance to rent/buy the game for atleast another week or two however and I was wondering if you could kind of explain the control layout as to how it works?

I figure you use the joysticks to move, but then how do you look from side to side? How is the field of view, would you consider it realistic?

[MizzouRah]

Good 'thoughts' on the game, I'm interested to hear more as the game wears on you some more.


Todd

[TroyF]

Originally posted by Neuqua
Admittedly this first person mode really intrigues me, if it were implimented correctly I think I may just end up converting to ESPN. I won't get the chance to rent/buy the game for atleast another week or two however and I was wondering if you could kind of explain the control layout as to how it works?

I figure you use the joysticks to move, but then how do you look from side to side? How is the field of view, would you consider it realistic?

You use the right stick to look from side to side before the snap. As a QB, you can get a pretty good read on the coverage and the possible blitz. (though certainly not with 100% accuracy)

Wehn you are running, you'll see an arrow if a defender is getting close outside of your vision. Most of the time, it's to late to really do anything about it.

As a QB, you can see a good portion of the field IF your offensive line can provide passing lanes and site lines. There has been more than one play I haven't had that option and have had to scramble for my life. (which usually ends up in a sack for me)

You must go through your progressions quickly. If you don't have a lane to throw it, go to #2 and see how that pans out. Pre Snap reads are pretty important in this game. No greater feeling than throwing the ball just as you are getting hit and having to listen to the crowds cheers/jeers to find out what happened. I have no idea why anyone would want to move between players in first person mode. The enjoyment for me is NOT being able to see the entire play.

There are a ton of audible/hot route/blitz things you can do, but I have not delved into that at all as of yet.

TroyF

[ice4277]

Excellent posts about the game Troy. I am not that pleased with Madden this year, and a lot of the things you mention as positives are things I look for in a football game, so I may bite the bullet and give it a whirl.

[illinifan999]

"2) The running animation is still a little goofy. It's like the players arms don't move enough as they are striding. It's a small detail, but for those who get bothered by things like that, you've been warned. "

Damn, can you notice it in first person?

[TroyF]

Originally posted by illinifan999
"2) The running animation is still a little goofy. It's like the players arms don't move enough as they are striding. It's a small detail, but for those who get bothered by things like that, you've been warned. "

Damn, can you notice it in first person?

No, you can notice it on the replays though. Again, it isn't something that is so horrible you can't enjoy the game. I think the biggest reason it looks out of place is because of how pretty everything else looks. It hasn't hampered my enjoyment of the game at all.

TroyF

[John Galt]

TroyF, thanks for the review.

If I may ask, what are the shortcomings of the franchise mode? Is the engine for it solid? Is it just omitting stuff like changing ticket prices and city relocation (owner mode type stuff) or are there other features lacking compared to Madden?

Thanks.

[Calis]

So let me get this straight, you're stuck playing the QB on passing plays and the RB on running plays in First-Person mode I'm taking it?

Don't know if they said this all along, but that's kinda dissapointed to me, I had hoped we'd be able to pick who we play, you know...it'd end up like a player lock basically, I like the RPG'ish potential of that. Something I bet they'll work on in the next version hopefully though.

How does it work on Defense?

edit: doh, just looked back through and realized I missed Troy's review of the game. Sounds like on D you can pick who you want. That's cool!

[Butter]

Did anyone ever say if the franchise mode for Madden was actually any good? There was talk about the game for about 3 days after it came out, and now the couple people I know that have it think it's not all that great. But I want details, dammit!

*slams fist into desk*

*goes to hospital for X-rays of hand*

I think having NCAA from EA and getting NFL2K4 from Sega is going to be the way I ultimately go. I liked NFL2K3 pretty well. Maybe I'll wait until next summer and hope they go on $9.99 special again at Toys R Us.

[TroyF]

Franchise mode:

Franchise mode is strictly contracts. You do have an owner who whines and send you some pretty damned funny e-mails. In one e-mail he gets pissed and says something to the effect of "I have half a mind to tell you not to let the door hit you on the way out, but I'm not a quitter. Another performence like last season and you'd better ask ESPN if they have any openings"

The contracts are cool, though there is no "bonus" money involved at all. Straight salary with the penalties. The draft and FA are pretty well done. I'm not saying it is the worst franchise mode in the history of video games, but if you are looking for something FOF like it isn't going to be your cup of tea.

Yeah, you can pick anyone you want to on defense. You CAN switch during the play, I just think that takes away the whole point of the FPS point of it so I choose not to do it.

I think I will have to tweak the sliders some to get everything exactly the way I want it, but it is a very enjoyable game as it is. If I can pull myself from the FPS mode later on today, I'll play a couple of games in regular mode and give my thoughts on that mode.

I know I've said it before, but this game is very easy on the eyes. Playing in Texas Stadium in the afternoon puts you on a field that is half covered in shade, half covered in sunlight. . . with the shadows moving as the game moves along. It's simply stunning.

TroyF

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

Thanks for the comments Troy. A couple of questions if you don't mind.

I played NFL 2K3 last year and loved it, but there were a couple of shortcomings that I hope were addressed this year. Does the computer actually stick with the run this year? Is it easier to sack the quarterback on defense? And is it fun playing as Vick, meaning can you actually easily scramble with him for good yardage?

[markprior22]

Hope this isn't a dumb question...can you use the first person view in a season or franchise game? Or is it just for "exhibition" game play?

[TroyF]

LWSFS,

I haven't played enough to really get an idea about how much the CPU sticks with the running game. I've played mostly on the easy levels thus far and have had a HUGE lead in most of my games.

It is easier to sack the QB. You have to mix up your play calling to do it. I've seen sacks with LB's blitzes, safety blitzes, 4 man rush and coverage sacks. Last game I played I was Indy vs. Atlanta. I played with Freeney the entire game. I picked up one sack and about four tackles. I put pressure on Vick three or four other times. My linemates added 3 sacks of their own.

I haven't played with Vick yet. **Gasp* * I plan playing with the Falcons later on today.

Mark,

There is an option to use first person in franchise mode. I haven't played around with it enough to see if you can switch back and forth between the two.

TroyF

[markprior22]

thanks troy

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by TroyF
Those problems are still there. It happens in the combine as well. The depth chart is a breeze, but the sorting does annoy me to a point. IMHO, I think NFL2K's gameplay is superior to Maddens and always has been. I usually overlook some of the interface issues because of that.

I'm not sure I'll spend a ton of time drafting anyway. On NCAA I found myself simming dynasty mode more than actually playing the game. With ESPN, I keep wanting to fire it up to play another game.

If you aren't like that, you will get annoyed quick with the sorting problems.

TroyF

Well, that makes it a non-buy. I'll definitely rent it at some point. I wouldn't mind the differences in the Madden franchise mode and going back to the way it was last year. It is pretty fun to be able to move the team and such, but basically the picking ticket prices and such stinks. I would much rather concentrate on the player development and such.

I play a "coach only" style, which I don't know how well ESPN will handle. I know last years sim stats sucked. Madden had many problems this year, and with the sort problems and such still in ESPN, it has just been a bad year for me and NFL games. *Crossing fingers for TPF*

[Philliesfan980]

Grantdawg;

I'm about to fire up a game of coach only... I'll let you know how it goes.

[Balldog]

Played my second game today, I'm liking this game a lot. Too bad it wasn't ESPN's gameplay with Madden's Owner Mode.

I'm gonna try Coach Mode after supper.

[EagleFan]

Check out that other thread about this game, that whole Arizona in the Super Bowl thing ruins their sim credibility.

Edit to add link to thread.

ESPN Football

[Buccaneer]

Good review, Troy. If you say the graphics are jaw dropping good, that's relative for a console, right?

FP football intrigues me, can someone tell me that is or will be available for the PC?

[Philliesfan980]

Well.. I just tried the coach only mode. Here are the results.

Settings: 5 Minute Quarters, PRO, no Slider Adjustments, coach only mode on.

Experiment: Play 1 half NFC All Stars VS. Detroit. One time me being NFC, the other time me being Detroit. Hopefully, I'll get similar stats for each game.

Here are the stats:

Game 1: NFC (me) vs. Detroit (CPU). I win the Half 10-0

B. Farve 8 - 13 62% - 99 yards - 0 td
Harrington 2 - 5 40% - 30 yards - 0 td - 1 int

D. Mcallister 8 - 54 6.8 ypc, 1 td
James Stewart 4- 4 ; 1 ypc, 0 td

Owens 6 rec - 106 yards
Horn 1 dropped pass
Mcallister 2 , -7 yards
B. Schroeder 1 - 28 yards
C. Schlesinger 1 - 2 yards

- Champ Baily INT

Champ Baily and Sapp Combine on the only sack of the game

Time of Possession 6:47 NFC ; 3:15 DET

Total Yards: 37 DET (2 first downs) ; 153 NFC (6 first downs)




This experiment seems correct. I should dominate this lessor team, and I do. The next post will be related to the 2nd game with me being Detroit and the CPU being NFC all stars

[Philliesfan980]

Game 2: Detroit (player) ; NFC All Stars (CPU).

Final Score (half) : 13-0 Detroit

Farve 6- 15 ; 40%; 2 ints
Harrington 2 - 5; 40%

Alstott 1- 2 yards
D Mcallister 4 - 26; 6.5 ypc ; 18 long
J. Stewart 6 - 37; 6.2 ypc; 23 long

Franks 1 rec 15 yards
Shockey 1 rec 8 yards
Horn 2 - 29
moss 1- 13
Owens 1 (-1)
Rogers 1 - 25
Sclesinger 1 - 2


Sacks: Brooks (1) ; Edwards (det) (1); Rogers (det) (1)

Hanson ; 2 - 2 (fg) 43 long

time of possession : 4:32 det (69 yards - 3 first downs); 5:30 nfc (76 yards 6 first downs).



As you can see, these results aren't accurate. The score doesn't really tell the whole story. The NFC squad moved the ball well, but the turnovers obviouslly killed them. The only touchdown was on a long int return for a td. James Stewarts ypc is a little misleading because he broke off a 23 yard run. I'm not totally disgouraged by these results (Hey , at least I don't get sacked every play). The defense seems to be a little strong, but hopefully that can be tweaked by sliders. I don't know why they don't have "coach mode" as a level instead of an option.

[TroyF]

Originally posted by EagleFan
Check out that other thread about this game, that whole Arizona in the Super Bowl thing ruins their sim credibility.

Edit to add link to thread.

ESPN Football

That's just it, for me it doesn't ruin the credibility of it at all. This is first and foremost an arcade game. The franchise mode is not deep at all. (though I love the draft) This game is about the player vs. CPU experience.

When I PLAY Tampa Bay vs. Arizona and take over the Cardinals, things get very difficult. It's hard to move the ball.

I've purchased two "arcade" football games this year. The first was NCAA2004. Whenever I pop the CD into the system, my first urge is to sim straight through and recruit.

When I pop the CD of ESPN Football into the system, I have the urge to PLAY the game.

Which one would I rather have? The latter. I have FOF, Total Pro Football (in a couple of months) and TCY to do the simming and strategy. When I buy something for the console it's to get away from that and to have fun. The only thing important to me is that I find some sort of realism in the game itself. (it isn't fun if Gilbert Brown chases down Michael Vick from 35 yards away, it isn't fun if I'm throwing for 600 yards against the Bucs defense with ANYONE)

ESPN gives me what I want.

TroyF

[MizzouRah]

When I buy something for the console it's to get away from that and to have fun. The only thing important to me is that I find some sort of realism in the game itself. (it isn't fun if Gilbert Brown chases down Michael Vick from 35 yards away, it isn't fun if I'm throwing for 600 yards against the Bucs defense with ANYONE)

I agree with this statement. I always find it funny reading posts over at operation sports where people want to play a game, but want the stats to be right on with the real NFL. Don't you play a game to make your favorite team better? If the Rams go 8-8 this year and I make them go 14-2, shouldn't I be happy? or should I say the game is inaccurate?

Sim games are just that, like FOF, that's where I go for realism, all I want from a console game is fun. For me, it's Madden, for you it's ESPN. As long as the rest of the stats for the other teams seem decent, I'm happy.

Todd

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by MizzouRah

Sim games are just that, like FOF, that's where I go for realism, all I want from a console game is fun. For me, it's Madden, for you it's ESPN. As long as the rest of the stats for the other teams seem decent, I'm happy.

Todd

But that's the point. How can the computer sim through a season and have the Cards win the Super Bowl this year? How would that be "the rest of the stats" being decent? They simmed through the season, and the Cards won. That's bad.

I'm glad you have fun with unrealistic stats from these games. Unfortunately I don't. I don't enjoy button mashing, so what I want from a game is realism and allow me to call the plays. FOF made the games secondary (even with FOF4 playcalling), and watching the games were boring. I want a game were I can watch my players make the play. I want to see and feel the excitement of a gameday. I want to jump up and down at a perfectly executed play-action, and yell at the screen at a blown coverage. No text based football game does that right now. Madden came very close last year, and NCAA 2004 does it about the best right now. They are still not quite there, but could be.

Sadly, they probably will never be because people that push buttons don't care if the stats are realistic.

[ice4277]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
I don't enjoy button mashing, so what I want from a game is realism and allow me to call the plays.

But this is where the problem lies; Madden, NCAA, NFL2k et al are designed first and foremost as button-mashers. Very little attention is given to coach-only modes, if any. I think that most people that play these games are, such as Troy and Todd seem to be, more interested in playing a game that is easy to play and has a high fun factor. I am not a big fan of this year's Madden, even though stats-wise it seems pretty good, because I am not having any fun with it. If I want a hardcore in-depth sim game, I am going to fire up Championship Manager; if I want to have a little mindless fun I am going to turn on FIFA. But there is no way I am ever going to try to replace one with the other.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by ice4277
But this is where the problem lies; Madden, NCAA, NFL2k et al are designed first and foremost as button-mashers. Very little attention is given to coach-only modes, if any. I think that most people that play these games are, such as Troy and Todd seem to be, more interested in playing a game that is easy to play and has a high fun factor. I am not a big fan of this year's Madden, even though stats-wise it seems pretty good, because I am not having any fun with it. If I want a hardcore in-depth sim game, I am going to fire up Championship Manager; if I want to have a little mindless fun I am going to turn on FIFA. But there is no way I am ever going to try to replace one with the other.

If you want mindless fun, get NFL Blitz. They don't even try to get the game right (or at least used to) and it was fun.

I know what your saying but I can still state what I like, right? What is aggrevating is they are so close yet they are not going to do the little things that wold make these games great (to me and the 10% or more who play this way).

[TroyF]

Grant,

I understand your frustration. I WOULD buy the game you are talking about, but only if it came out for the PC where I could customize it.

I think you somewhat missed my point on the "realism" factor. The realism factor in ESPN comes on the field, playing the game. The "sim" engine is not solid. There isn't any debate about that. It's average at best. The game just wasn't designed to be a sim.

As for "realistic" sims, NCAA is about as bad as it gets. It's nice to see Troy State win 3 consecutive National Titles. It's great to see the MAC/WAC/Sun Belt become dominant conferences, right? (in the Troy State example, I took over the one star team and 3 years later won a national title)

I hope the game you are looking for comes out. I really, really do. I don't see anything on the horizon though.

TroyF

PS: For kicks, I just simmed through 15 seasons on ESPN. Resetting before I did each time so that I was going through the first season everytime. The Packers won the most Super Bowls (4). The Cardinals made the playoffs once. The Bengals, however, did win one Super Bowl.

[FBPro]

It sounds like ESPN might be a good head-to-head game.

[Butter]

Originally posted by TroyF
As for "realistic" sims, NCAA is about as bad as it gets. It's nice to see Troy State win 3 consecutive National Titles. It's great to see the MAC/WAC/Sun Belt become dominant conferences, right? (in the Troy State example, I took over the one star team and 3 years later won a national title)

I think that NCAA is not a really strong football sim, but it's not that bad. The recruiting is limited, but decent. The on the field sims lack statistical depth (each game generates stats for each player, but the game's stats themselves aren't viewable). But in my experience, the game keeps the powerhouses as powerhouses, while the bad teams generally stay bad. In the 3 dynasties I'm involved with, Oklahoma, Miami, Ohio St., Michigan, Texas, and NC State pretty much make the championship games/top 10 nearly every year. Arkansas, TCU, and Tennessee are other teams I recall sneaking in there, but only once in my recollection. If anything, it is overbalanced to favor the strong teams, and not allow the weaker ones to get a leg up (unless they're human-controlled). Southern Miss, TCU, and Louisville tend to be the non-BCS teams that make a top-10 impact, but the conferences as a whole stay about the same prestige-wise.

I think it would be ultimately very frustrating to try and play a dynasty that mirrored, say, the TCY VC with Indiana, in which your team didn't even make a bowl game for 35 years. But, each person has his own likes/dislikes in these types of games, and the ability to succeed while still be challenged makes NCAA appeal to me.

[GrantDawg]

No doubt that NCAA is not a perfect sim. TCY is far from one, too. I can at least enjoy the game in NCAA, whereas TCY was just an exercise in tedium (girlfriends? please).

[FBPro]

Oh I had/have fun with NCAA as I'm not the greatest joystick jockey but it is a decent "even" solo game for me. TCY is either TOO much detail in recruiting or not enough in everythingelse.

[MizzouRah]

But that's the point. How can the computer sim through a season and have the Cards win the Super Bowl this year? How would that be "the rest of the stats" being decent? They simmed through the season, and the Cards won. That's bad.

I don't play ESPN, with Madden stats seem just about right so far, imo.


Todd

[FBPro]

Originally posted by MizzouRah
I don't play ESPN, with Madden stats seem just about right so far, imo.


Todd

Exactly, IMO with just a few more tweaks and additions it could top FBPro.....not quite there overall yet. Beats it however in some areas.

[Philliesfan980]

Madden could top FBPro or ESPN could top FBPro?

[FBPro]

Madden

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by FBPro
Exactly, IMO with just a few more tweaks and additions it could top FBPro.....not quite there overall yet. Beats it however in some areas.

I think it beats it in most areas. Remember, without second party extras (which I never got into) FBPro had no salary cap, had an easily beat-able AI, and the player progression was just bad. It was a great game for the day, but it was far from as polished as Madden.