Something that has always bothered me about christianity.

[Airhog]

What fate awaits those that have no teaching of Christ and God? Say you lived on the american continent around Christs time. How could you have any knowledge of Jesus, or God? Would you go straight to hell for not even knowing? Not trying to start a raging war here, just curious about what other people think.

[Suicane75]

Not tonight honey, i have a headache.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

I believe the people who were never exposed to accepting Jesus Christ as their lord and savior will have a chance to do so when he returns. There is nothing in the bible that says you will go to hell if you were never even given the choice.

[ISiddiqui]

Well Dante put them in Limbo .

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Airhog

What fate awaits those that have no teaching of Christ and God? Say you lived on the american continent around Christs time. How could you have any knowledge of Jesus, or God? Would you go straight to hell for not even knowing? Not trying to start a raging war here, just curious about what other people think.

Eskimo: Would I have gone to heaven if you never told me of Christ?
Christian Missionary: Well, yes.
Eskimo: Then why'd you tell me?

[yabanci]

I've asked this question many times, because it stabs at the heart of the whole christian theory of salvation. Nobody has ever been able a answer it. Nobody even really tries.

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/for...7&postcount=69

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/for...&postcount=371

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/for...&postcount=373

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Why dont you consult the bible or a pastor or something yabanci. You people that try to disprove Christianity always bring up these what if questions and If we dont have an answer you feel you disprove our religion or an aspect of it. Christians do not have the magical answer to every question you can conjure. Its a FAITH based religion.

[LoneStarGirl]

Okay, I like to watch the Lakewood Church on Tv once in awhile, because its the biggest church in American and it's in Houston, where I'm from, any my family knows the pastor and his family and all. And one day I was watching and this question came up. The preacher said that there are different levels of hell, just like there are different levels of heaven. He said a passage from the Bible that kind of explained it, but I dont recall what it was. He said that the people who never heard about God or Jesus could have still looked up to the stars and realized that something greater than us all would have had to have created us. And by just realizing that, they would be excepted into heaven.

[Anthony]

there is no spoon.

[Groundhog]

This has always interested me too, and I've never been given a very good answer. Sure, I've been given answers by scripture teachers in high school and the like, usually along the lines of them being judged on their character after they die, but I don't believe I've ever seen that written in the bible (please prove me wrong).

I'm not religious, though I do have an interest in religion in general, and this to me is obviously a problem of more religions than just Christianity and it's branch religions. Some people say that there is one God, and all the different scriptures are different takes on that one God, but to me that's not nearly and adaquete answer. If that's the case, why be Christian over Muslim? What makes you think that your particular flavour of God is the true one? I find that most people are whatever religion they are due to their parents being that religion before them, so it's not like people are studying all the religions and then deciding that the one flavour in particular sounds more legit than the other, though how can you say that the fantastic stories in religion X are any more valid than those in religion Y?

I don't mean to sound like I'm slagging off or trying to invalidate religion either, like I said I'm interested in it even if I don't believe in it, and I'll never criticize someone for believing in it - it's just thoughts like the ones I've listed that make it impossible for me to believe it myself.

I have an excellent book at home titled "They Came to Japan: an anthology of European reports on Japan, 1543*-1640" by Michael Cooper which is a collection of letters written by (in most cases) Jesuits in Japan during the 16th and early 17th century. These were the first Europeans ever in Japan, and they brought their religion, which was until this time completely unknown, with them and managed to convert a surprising amount of Japanese, including some powerful men. Some of these Jesuits were truly great men who were fascinated and impressed by the alien Japanese culture, and it does paint a better picture of the medieval religious scene considering you only really hear of terrible acts of the church from this period. Of most interest to me in the book though was a list of questions a certain Japanese man (can't remember who) asked the Jesuit about his religion. They were very insightful questions, and I really wish Cooper had also translated the Jesuit's responses.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by TheOhioStateUniversity

Why dont you consult the bible or a pastor or something yabanci. You people that try to disprove Christianity always bring up these what if questions and If we dont have an answer you feel you disprove our religion or an aspect of it. Christians do not have the magical answer to every question you can conjure. Its a FAITH based religion.

He's not trying to disprove Christianity, he is asking a legitimate question. It's great that you have full faith in your religion, however that is obviously not the case for everyone and some people need questions liked this answered.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Some people need to understand every question will never be answered if you subscribe to Islam, Christianity, Judaism or any other faith based religion. One can think of various situations that none of the religions can explain.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by TheOhioStateUniversity

Some people need to understand every question will never be answered if you subscribe to Islam, Christianity, Judaism or any other faith based religion. One can think of various situations that none of the religions can explain.

Sure, but these are important questions. It's not like I'm asking the Christian God to tell me who's going to win the superbowl here...

[Schmidty]

I should read this and respond sincerely, but the only answer I had after reading your title was "Jesus"?

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

How is the question of what happens to people who lived before Christ or were never exposed to Christ so important. Of course that would be important to them.....But if you are deciding what religion is right for you then I dont see the importance.

[cthomer5000]

Teddy Ginn bothers me.

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by Airhog

What fate awaits those that have no teaching of Christ and God? Say you lived on the american continent around Christs time. How could you have any knowledge of Jesus, or God? Would you go straight to hell for not even knowing? Not trying to start a raging war here, just curious about what other people think.

Biggest reason for people not getting 'straight answers' to this are various combinations of these:

- Different branches of Christianity have different answers, first of all. Tough discussion to have if you're not talking about a specific flavor.

- Not everyone in a branch agrees. The Catholic Church used to teach about a place called Limbo somewhere in between Heaven and Hell, where those without mortal sin but were unbaptized through no fault of their own would go (typically the example was an infant), but that's fallen by the wayside somewhat since Vatican II - some older Catholics are right on top of Limbo as the answer here, while younger ones such as myself don't have that to fall back on.

- Simply put... no one knows. The Bible doesn't say. It implies a slew of things that can be taken any which way, but doesn't flat out state anything. So, really, it's unanswerable to any true fashion.

Sorry to disappoint. :-D

[sovereignstar]

Would Jesus use red font in his sig?

[AENeuman]

From Rahner: hxxp://www.religion-online.org/showchapter.asp?title=2079&C=1962

It should, however, be noted that Christianity has a historical beginning in Christ; but this means only that this absolute religion, too, must come to men historically, confronting and claiming them as their legitimate religion.

The question is therefore: Is the moment in time at which this absolute historical religion makes existentially real demands on men the same for all, or has the beginning of this moment itself a history and thus is not the same in time for all men, all civilizations and periods of history.

For we shall positively state only that Christianity is meant to be the absolute and therefore unique religion of all mankind, but we leave open the question at which moment in time it is objectively binding for any man and any civilization. It should be noted that we are therefore concerned with the fact that a social entity is needed for salvation.

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

The question is therefore: Is the moment in time at which this absolute historical religion makes existentially real demands on men the same for all, or has the beginning of this moment itself a history and thus is not the same in time for all men, all civilizations and periods of history.

For we shall positively state only that Christianity is meant to be the absolute and therefore unique religion of all mankind, but we leave open the question at which moment in time it is objectively binding for any man and any civilization. It should be noted that we are therefore concerned with the fact that a social entity is needed for salvation.

wha??

[stkelly52]

If you study into Christian Theology much you will learn about General Revelation. That is that God has made himself known to man through nature. The fact that everything fits into place is evidence of God's existiance. If man sees this and has the desire to know who God is, then God will make himself know to that man.

Of course if you get into strict Calvinist Theology, God chooses who will accept him and who will not. Those who never heard are some of the ones who were predestined to not believe. Others will soften that line a bit to say that those who never heard were the ones who God knew would never believe (thus keeping the much more comfortable view of free will that most people want to think we have).

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by TheOhioStateUniversity

How is the question of what happens to people who lived before Christ or were never exposed to Christ so important. Of course that would be important to them.....But if you are deciding what religion is right for you then I dont see the importance.

Because some people don't want to belong to a religion which says that people who weren't exposed to the word cannot be saved. It seems... unfair.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by LoneStarGirl

Okay, I like to watch the Lakewood Church on Tv once in awhile, because its the biggest church in American and it's in Houston, where I'm from, any my family knows the pastor and his family and all. And one day I was watching and this question came up. The preacher said that there are different levels of hell, just like there are different levels of heaven. He said a passage from the Bible that kind of explained it, but I dont recall what it was. He said that the people who never heard about God or Jesus could have still looked up to the stars and realized that something greater than us all would have had to have created us. And by just realizing that, they would be excepted into heaven.

Different levels of Hell, I'd be curious to know what the difference would be.

[yabanci]

Originally Posted by Celeval

....Simply put... no one knows. The Bible doesn't say. It implies a slew of things that can be taken any which way, but doesn't flat out state anything.....

But it does. See, e.g., John 4:16 ("no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"); Mark 16:16 ("he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned").

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by yabanci

But it does. See, e.g., John 4:16 ("no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"); Mark 16:16 ("he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned").

And Mark leaves a nice wide hole for those who may believeth and are not baptized. Your point?

[Sharpieman]

Originally Posted by Celeval

And Mark leaves a nice wide hole for those who may believeth and are not baptized. Your point?

good point

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Different levels of Hell, I'd be curious to know what the difference would be.

Me too, but I'd rather learn vicariously through someone else.

[Sharpieman]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Me too, but I'd rather learn vicariously through someone else.

Read Dante's Divine Comedy, its actually a pretty cool book.

[Raiders Army]

I've heard of it in High School, but unless he was really there, how does he know?

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I should read this and respond sincerely, but the only answer I had after reading your title was "Jesus"?

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

Would Jesus use red font in his sig?

I know this may not be appropriate, but these comments almost had me crying.

[Blackadar]

FBMachine: i got kicked out of barnes and noble once for moving all the bibles into the fiction section

[wishbone]

Originally Posted by Airhog

What fate awaits those that have no teaching of Christ and God? Say you lived on the american continent around Christs time. How could you have any knowledge of Jesus, or God? Would you go straight to hell for not even knowing? Not trying to start a raging war here, just curious about what other people think.

Mormons believe that the people on the American continent were descendants of a group of people that left Jerusalem around 600BC and that Christ came to the american continent after being crucified. We also believe that when you die, you go to a spirit world to wait for the resurrection and that during that time you can accept Christ. So everyone will have the oppurtunity.

I personally think a lot of people get to hung up on death, we lived before Earth, we live on Earth and we will live after Earth.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Basically the only solid point here is that people who do not believe will be damned. Those who have not had the chance to believe do not fit in that category, so I would assume they would have some other chance at salvation. Or they would be judged solely upon how they lived their life. Im not an expert on the bible so there may be other passages dealing with this situation but I dont think so. Its just a gray area.

[mhass]

It is a common understanding among modern evangelical Christians that God will hold you accountable for what you know, not for what you don't know. So those people that died having never heard the gospel will not be condemned for that lack of knowledge. And as said earlier, they will get the chance to acknowledge Christ as savior when he returns. Until then, we are not sure of the status of their soul, but they almost certainly are not in heaven.

[Huckleberry]

The idea that these questions shouldn't matter to someone deciding on religion is laughable.

I consider it a pretty damn important decision criterion. By accepting Christianity I would have to accept the idea that if my family were to die in a car accident on the way home next weekend I would go to Heaven, my wife would go to Heaven, my 4 year old daughter would go to Heaven, but my 15 month old daughter would not.

No thanks.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

FBMachine: i got kicked out of barnes and noble once for moving all the bibles into the fiction section

thank you for making reading this thread worth it!

[jeff061]

"Believe what I tell you and do what I tell you or you will suffer for eternity!!"

Nice.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

Ok Huckleberry firstly children arent even accountable for their actions in Gods eyes until about 12? or so in the scripture. That throws your typical "what if" situation out the window. Also do you think a merciful God that sent his son to die for our sins, is going to send children to hell because they were never exposed to his teachings.....

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

thank you for making reading this thread worth it!

I've just gotten a bit tired of all the religious threads lately and decided to have a bit of fun.

[BrianD]

Nun: You don't believe in God because of Alice in Wonderland?
Loki: No, "Through the Looking Glass". That poem, "The Walrus and the Carpenter" that's an indictment of organized religion. The walrus, with his girth and his good nature, he obviously represents either Buddha, or...or with his tusk, the Hindu elephant god, Lord Ganesha. That takes care of your Eastern religions. Now the carpenter, which is an obvious reference to Jesus Christ, who was raised a carpenter's son, he represents the Western religions. Now in the poem, what do they do...what do they do? They...They dupe all these oysters into following them and then proceed to shuck and devour the helpless creatures en masse. I don't know what that says to you, but to me it says that following these faiths based on mythological figures ensure the destruction of one's inner-being. Organized religion destroys who we are by inhibiting our actions...by inhibiting our decisions, out of...out of fear of some...some intangible parent figure who...who shakes a finger at us from thousands of years ago and says...and says, "Do it--Do it and I'll fuckin' spank you!"

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by TheOhioStateUniversity

Ok Huckleberry firstly children arent even accountable for their actions in Gods eyes until about 12? or so in the scripture. That throws your typical "what if" situation out the window. Also do you think a merciful God that sent his son to die for our sins, is going to send children to hell because they were never exposed to his teachings.....

i think god feared his son's growing power and sent him to earth to die. there's a verse somewhere in Numbers alluding to that.

[QuikSand]

Faith doesn't necessarily have to include fairness.

If you decide up front that your belief system needs to adhere to some particular system of logic or equality in order to pass your personal acceptance test -- then what you're engaging in doesn't really seem like faith.

I personally am not wild about a concept of salvation that, essentially, ignores the logical prcept of "ought implies can," but at the same time I don't feel that gives me the right to reject others who adhere to it as a matter of faith. It's not for me, but it's not my faith.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

lighthousekeeper when you find that verse please please post it. That sounds proposterous.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Faith doesn't necessarily have to include fairness.

If you decide up front that your belief system needs to adhere to some particular system of logic or equality in order to pass your personal acceptance test -- then what you're engaging in doesn't really seem like faith.

I personally am not wild about a concept of salvation that, essentially, ignores the logical prcept of "ought implies can," but at the same time I don't feel that gives me the right to reject others who adhere to it as a matter of faith. It's not for me, but it's not my faith.

what he's trying to say nicely is that religion and critical thinking don't mix.

[TheOhioStateUniversity]

No what hes saying is faith cannot always be explained with critical thinking. Its FAITH.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

what he's trying to say nicely is that religion and critical thinking don't mix.

Nor, perhaps, should they.

[Cringer]

Is this a good thread for me to come out of the closet in?

[stkelly52]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

The idea that these questions shouldn't matter to someone deciding on religion is laughable.

I consider it a pretty damn important decision criterion. By accepting Christianity I would have to accept the idea that if my family were to die in a car accident on the way home next weekend I would go to Heaven, my wife would go to Heaven, my 4 year old daughter would go to Heaven, but my 15 month old daughter would not.

No thanks.

The problem with your statement is that you are basically saying "I don't like the way the rules work, and I don't think that they are fair, so I am not going to believe it." But what if it is true? Will you reject the concept of God because he does not fit what you (in your limited human perception) believe to be fair?

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by stkelly52

If you study into Christian Theology much you will learn about General Revelation. That is that God has made himself known to man through nature. The fact that everything fits into place is evidence of God's existiance. If man sees this and has the desire to know who God is, then God will make himself know to that man.

Predestined? Are you admitting that this brain that god supposedly created will not let me believe in him? I wish I could believe things based on "faith" but I don't/can't. Neither do most Christians, but for their god they make an exception.

[st.cronin]

I think it was William James who argued that faith is not something we choose. The demonstration was something like, try to believe that the Earth is flat. As hard as you try, you can't believe it - because faith is not something we can arbitrarily CHOOSE.