Home Poker Game Etiquette Question

Pumpy Tudors · 11-07-2004, 02:06 AM

One of my co-workers has started a home poker ring game. We've only played twice, and it's pretty lowbrow at the moment. We've had 6 players each time, $20 buy-in, and it's a no-limit ring game. Players can get up and leave whenever they want to, and they take home any money they have. Basically, it's not a tournament, play-until-you're-out style.

Anyway, last night, my aforementioned co-worker ran out of money, but he agreed to deal every hand. Figuring that he was no longer in the game, he started peeking at players' mucked cards. He didn't tell anybody what he'd seen, but he was still peeking. In addition, there was one point in which we were at a two-player showdown. One player bet $11 and the other guy called him. The caller immediately showed his hand, even though it was out of turn. The bettor mucked his cards because he'd been beaten. The dealer then turned over the bettor's cards saying that the caller "had paid to see them." Yes, he did pay to see them, but he also showed out of turn. If the caller had asked the bettor to show, that would be one thing, but is it really the dealer's place to turn the cards over?

I'm wondering if the dealer has acted out of line in the two examples I'd given. Although I can understand his reasoning in the second case, I don't agree with it. I find the first case (peeking at mucked cards) to be totally uncalled for. If he never played with us, I wouldn't care, but he does play, and he could get information about everyone else's strategies. Just because he was out of play on that one night doesn't mean that he suddenly becomes an outsider, does it?

I'm feeling uncomfortable about this, and I will talk to him about it, but I think he'll just consider me a holier-than-thou type because I have the most experience of any of the players at our game. Am I off base with my concerns, or do I have a legitimate beef here? If I'm overreacting, I'll just suck it up and play next time (even though I'll still talk to him first), but if he's really breaking protocol at the table, I should probably get out of the game.

I'm asking you guys for help because I don't want to approach him and look like a jackass in the process. Thanks.

kingnebwsu · 11-07-2004, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

I find the first case (peeking at mucked cards) to be totally uncalled for. If he never played with us, I wouldn't care, but he does play, and he could get information about everyone else's strategies. Just because he was out of play on that one night doesn't mean that he suddenly becomes an outsider, does it?

I'm feeling uncomfortable about this, and I will talk to him about it, but I think he'll just consider me a holier-than-thou type because I have the most experience of any of the players at our game. Am I off base with my concerns, or do I have a legitimate beef here? If I'm overreacting, I'll just suck it up and play next time (even though I'll still talk to him first), but if he's really breaking protocol at the table, I should probably get out of the game.

I'm asking you guys for help because I don't want to approach him and look like a jackass in the process. Thanks.

So yeah, a girl at our "for fun" weekly poker game started doing this and I asked "what are you doing?...don't look at my cards." She was like "what's the big deal?" and I replied "it can give you a hint to my strategy...what cards I play and don't play." She said "fine, take it easy...JESUS!!!"

After that, the evening was very awkward. I tried joking around, but she was very cold the other night. Anyway, she works where I used to and I talked to her boss and she was like "are you going to apologize?" I said "HELL NO!" There's no way in hell I'm going to apologize. I didn't even overreact that much. She's wrong in this case. Period. I refuse to apologize and if our relationship is never the same, well that's too damn bad. We haven't had poker since then (about 3-4 weeks), and we probably won't have it for a while because Halo 2 comes out soon.

I had to share my story, because it's very similar circumstances (even though ours is a "for fun" game). I told my roommate (who also plays in our poker game) about what my former boss said, and he just laughed. My roomy is one of the most polite people I know, and if he says I shouldn't apologize, then I know I'm right

This is the worst english I've ever had in a post. Me fail english? That's unpossible!!!

Deattribution · 11-07-2004, 02:25 AM

It's a legitiment gripe, especially since you're playing with money but I'd still try to be friendly about it. Considering he was first out, I don't think you got to worry about his poker savvy coming back to get you.

It's worth bringing up though.

Glengoyne · 11-07-2004, 02:35 AM

I think it depends on how savvy the guy is. If he is screwing around looking at mucked cards after you guys took all his money, he probably aint bright enough to make use of the information. I think I'd say something, but I wouldn't be too dramatic.

On the second thing, I think I'd want to see the guy's hand even if I faced mine out of turn.

Glengoyne · 11-07-2004, 02:36 AM

Dola,
What are the odds of finding back to back posts containing the word savvy?

Pumpy Tudors · 11-07-2004, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I think it depends on how savvy the guy is. If he is screwing around looking at mucked cards after you guys took all his money, he probably aint bright enough to make use of the information. I think I'd say something, but I wouldn't be too dramatic.

On the second thing, I think I'd want to see the guy's hand even if I faced mine out of turn.

Well, at the very least, he thinks he knows what he's doing at the poker table. He could've just been having a bad night when he got knocked out. He's certainly not a very good player, though.

As for the second part, I agree that if the caller (the guy who showed out of turn) wanted to see the cards, it's fine. Should the dealer make that decision for him, though? After the dealer turned the cards over and I told him it wasn't cool, the caller said, "I don't really care what he had, as long as I won." Since he wasn't going to ask to see the cards, I think the dealer should've just shuffled 'em up and dealt the next hand.

sabotai · 11-07-2004, 03:22 AM

Yeah, it's against etiquette. But at the same time, it really is just a friendly game, right? When I play with my friends, we basically don't follow much etiquette. It annoyed me at first, but I realized that 1) They aren't good enough to make use of the info, so it doesn't matter and 2) It's just a friendly game, meant for fun, not strict poker playing. For me, as long as you are having fun, it shouldn't really matter.

But then again, I play with people that I could win more than lose without even looking at my cards...so I don't care about etiquette because I'll take their money regardless.

Desnudo · 11-07-2004, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Well, at the very least, he thinks he knows what he's doing at the poker table. He could've just been having a bad night when he got knocked out. He's certainly not a very good player, though.

As for the second part, I agree that if the caller (the guy who showed out of turn) wanted to see the cards, it's fine. Should the dealer make that decision for him, though? After the dealer turned the cards over and I told him it wasn't cool, the caller said, "I don't really care what he had, as long as I won." Since he wasn't going to ask to see the cards, I think the dealer should've just shuffled 'em up and dealt the next hand.

True, but my advice would be that if it really bothers you, find another game, rather than potentially hurt a friendship over something that's pretty minor.

Chubby · 11-07-2004, 10:49 AM

both cases were wrong and there's nothing wrong with you questioning it.

Lathum · 11-07-2004, 10:58 AM

MY question would be was there drinking involved? If the dealer was drunk or close to it then he probably couldn't make future use of this information and was just being an ass. To me the bottom line is even if it a "friendly" game there is money involved so proper ettiquete should be followed because the players who are still in the game may be able to pick up your playing style based on the dealers reactions to your mucked cards.

That being said I would let it go if it was a one time thing but if a pattern develops then I would say something or find a new game.

Dutch · 11-07-2004, 11:00 AM

1st case, the dealer cannot look at mucked cards. Period. If he thinks it's no big deal, tell him he can no longer be the dealer because you think it is a big deal. (Your are still playing and he is not, you should get priority in that situation)

2nd case - Because the caller showed his cards first, the right of mucking goes to the bettor and therefore the dealer should have respected the caller's right to do so.

Just opinion's, but as someone who plays in a Hold Em tourney every other week, I would voice my opinion at a dealer behaving like that.

Draft Dodger · 11-07-2004, 11:19 AM

1st case would be a very big deal to me. and occasional mucked hand getting looked at for fun (even by a still-active player) isn't a big deal to me IMHO. but one guy seeing every mucked hand? no way I would still play if he was doing it.

Joe · 11-07-2004, 12:10 PM

get over it

JonInMiddleGA · 11-07-2004, 01:09 PM

Once there's money on the table, it's no longer "a friendly game" AFAIC.

Rather than discuss the situation further though, how about just not letting a first-out player be dealer next time? I doubt he got enough to be extremely useful from just one sitting (unless there were a lot of hands). I'd just avoid letting the situation come up next time if possible. And if it's unavoidable, then have a conversation about the etiquette before he takes over the deal.

Pumpy Tudors · 11-07-2004, 01:22 PM

Ignoring the George W. Bush comedy response, thanks to all of you for your comments.

Yes, every single person at the table except me had been drinking. If I thought this kind of thing would only happen one time, I really wouldn't care. I have a feeling that this guy really wasn't trying to get information about other players through the mucks (he was just curious), but it unsettled me because he's the type who'd probably do it again. As JonInMiddleGA said, the information wouldn't be too useful in one sitting. There were only maybe 10 or 15 hands after he busted out, and he peeked at about 4 or 5. I just don't want to see this happen at every game.

I wasn't going to go to him with any crazy confrontations, but I was going to try to let him know that he might've done something wrong without realizing it. Since much of the advice given here is very good, I've decided to just wait and see what happens at the next game.

Thanks.

Lathum · 11-07-2004, 02:53 PM

NP, go get emm. And next time feed them MORE drinks.

Dutch · 11-07-2004, 04:54 PM

Yeah, actually, the drinking is way more damaging to their game than looking at muck cards....let them drink (but don't let them drive home)!

rkmsuf · 11-08-2004, 09:02 AM

He really shouldn't do this unless the other players give him the ok. It's poor form otherwise.

Subby · 11-08-2004, 09:23 AM

What he did is a huge deal. Peeking at mucked cards is cheating unless that guy only deals and never plays.

The second instance - probably isn't a big deal since the original bettor was supposed to show in the first place...the caller should just get bitch-slapped for showing out of turn...

panerd · 11-08-2004, 09:44 AM

I have to chime in with the exact opposite opinion of most in this thread. I think the WSOP and World Poker Tour have all made us think we are professionials. From what I can gather the game was friendly, low stakes, with drinking involved. The best analogy I can draw is the Gendisen episode of Seinfeld or for those of you who aren't Seinfeld fans an office golf tournament. There are certain rules that you would follow when playing for big money or seriously competing against a friend that you look like an idiot applying in a friendly office tournament. I know this because we have a guy who is ultra-competitive who quotes all the PGA rules and just looks like a jerk.

So bottom line...

1. Either suck it up and accept that most people in friendly games do the things your co-worker does

OR

2. Don't play in this type of game.

Notice I didn't say that I have a problem with following etiquette or that people who follow eitquette are wrong. I just said this situation doesn't seem to be one where you need to worry about people figuing out your style of play.

11-07-2004, 11:00 AM	#11
Dutch "Dutch" Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Tampa, FL	1st case, the dealer cannot look at mucked cards. Period. If he thinks it's no big deal, tell him he can no longer be the dealer because you think it is a big deal. (Your are still playing and he is not, you should get priority in that situation) 2nd case - Because the caller showed his cards first, the right of mucking goes to the bettor and therefore the dealer should have respected the caller's right to do so. Just opinion's, but as someone who plays in a Hold Em tourney every other week, I would voice my opinion at a dealer behaving like that. Last edited by Dutch : 11-07-2004 at 11:01 AM.

11-07-2004, 11:19 AM	#12
Draft Dodger Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Keene, NH	1st case would be a very big deal to me. and occasional mucked hand getting looked at for fun (even by a still-active player) isn't a big deal to me IMHO. but one guy seeing every mucked hand? no way I would still play if he was doing it. __________________ Mile High Hockey

11-07-2004, 01:09 PM	#14
JonInMiddleGA Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA	Once there's money on the table, it's no longer "a friendly game" AFAIC. Rather than discuss the situation further though, how about just not letting a first-out player be dealer next time? I doubt he got enough to be extremely useful from just one sitting (unless there were a lot of hands). I'd just avoid letting the situation come up next time if possible. And if it's unavoidable, then have a conversation about the etiquette before he takes over the deal. __________________ "I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis

11-07-2004, 01:22 PM	#15
Pumpy Tudors Bounty Hunter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Pittsburgh, PA	Ignoring the George W. Bush comedy response, thanks to all of you for your comments. Yes, every single person at the table except me had been drinking. If I thought this kind of thing would only happen one time, I really wouldn't care. I have a feeling that this guy really wasn't trying to get information about other players through the mucks (he was just curious), but it unsettled me because he's the type who'd probably do it again. As JonInMiddleGA said, the information wouldn't be too useful in one sitting. There were only maybe 10 or 15 hands after he busted out, and he peeked at about 4 or 5. I just don't want to see this happen at every game. I wasn't going to go to him with any crazy confrontations, but I was going to try to let him know that he might've done something wrong without realizing it. Since much of the advice given here is very good, I've decided to just wait and see what happens at the next game. Thanks. __________________ No, I am not Batman, and I will not repair your food processor.

11-08-2004, 09:02 AM	#18
rkmsuf Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2001	He really shouldn't do this unless the other players give him the ok. It's poor form otherwise. __________________ "Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales

11-07-2004, 02:25 AM	#3
Deattribution College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2003	It's a legitiment gripe, especially since you're playing with money but I'd still try to be friendly about it. Considering he was first out, I don't think you got to worry about his poker savvy coming back to get you. It's worth bringing up though.

11-07-2004, 02:35 AM	#4
Glengoyne Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Fresno, CA	I think it depends on how savvy the guy is. If he is screwing around looking at mucked cards after you guys took all his money, he probably aint bright enough to make use of the information. I think I'd say something, but I wouldn't be too dramatic. On the second thing, I think I'd want to see the guy's hand even if I faced mine out of turn.

11-07-2004, 02:36 AM	#5
Glengoyne Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Fresno, CA	Dola, What are the odds of finding back to back posts containing the word savvy?

11-07-2004, 03:22 AM	#7
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	Yeah, it's against etiquette. But at the same time, it really is just a friendly game, right? When I play with my friends, we basically don't follow much etiquette. It annoyed me at first, but I realized that 1) They aren't good enough to make use of the info, so it doesn't matter and 2) It's just a friendly game, meant for fun, not strict poker playing. For me, as long as you are having fun, it shouldn't really matter. But then again, I play with people that I could win more than lose without even looking at my cards...so I don't care about etiquette because I'll take their money regardless.

11-07-2004, 10:49 AM	#9
Chubby Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Syracuse, NY	both cases were wrong and there's nothing wrong with you questioning it.

11-07-2004, 10:58 AM	#10
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	MY question would be was there drinking involved? If the dealer was drunk or close to it then he probably couldn't make future use of this information and was just being an ass. To me the bottom line is even if it a "friendly" game there is money involved so proper ettiquete should be followed because the players who are still in the game may be able to pick up your playing style based on the dealers reactions to your mucked cards. That being said I would let it go if it was a one time thing but if a pattern develops then I would say something or find a new game.

11-07-2004, 12:10 PM	#13
Joe Pro Starter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Minneapolis	get over it

11-07-2004, 02:53 PM	#16
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	NP, go get emm. And next time feed them MORE drinks.

11-07-2004, 04:54 PM	#17
Dutch "Dutch" Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Tampa, FL	Yeah, actually, the drinking is way more damaging to their game than looking at muck cards....let them drink (but don't let them drive home)!

11-08-2004, 09:23 AM	#19
Subby lolzcat Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: sans pants	What he did is a huge deal. Peeking at mucked cards is cheating unless that guy only deals and never plays. The second instance - probably isn't a big deal since the original bettor was supposed to show in the first place...the caller should just get bitch-slapped for showing out of turn...

11-08-2004, 09:44 AM	#20
panerd Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: St. Louis	I have to chime in with the exact opposite opinion of most in this thread. I think the WSOP and World Poker Tour have all made us think we are professionials. From what I can gather the game was friendly, low stakes, with drinking involved. The best analogy I can draw is the Gendisen episode of Seinfeld or for those of you who aren't Seinfeld fans an office golf tournament. There are certain rules that you would follow when playing for big money or seriously competing against a friend that you look like an idiot applying in a friendly office tournament. I know this because we have a guy who is ultra-competitive who quotes all the PGA rules and just looks like a jerk. So bottom line... 1. Either suck it up and accept that most people in friendly games do the things your co-worker does OR 2. Don't play in this type of game. Notice I didn't say that I have a problem with following etiquette or that people who follow eitquette are wrong. I just said this situation doesn't seem to be one where you need to worry about people figuing out your style of play.

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