Sometimes FM is so hard to figure out

[Abe Sargent]

I brought in a new striker to motivate my slacking strikers mid-season to 2nd League club Carlisle and in his second week with the team, in his second start, he kicks a guy during a match and gets red carded. He protests violently on the field and the rest of the team has to cart him off the field. I find this behavior repellant, so I fine him one week's wage for dismissal in the previous match. Then half my team is pissed that I disciplined him.

Why would they care? The guy has only been there for two weeks, there are no established relationships wiuth him. His behavior both in order to warrant the red card and after he was carded was completely innappropriate, plus he's not a star acquisition, he's barely better than my second best striker, I just wanted an additional player who could challenge my team and rotate in as needed.

I can't figure out why my team got pissed. Should I have merely warned him instead? Would they not have all gotten upset at that?

Ironically, of my regular squad, all of the pissed off people were either subs, players who didn't dress for the last game, or one player in the starting 11 who was signed this past summer (The Spainard). Maybe the players on the pitch, except for the one Spainard agree with my decision but it seems harsh to everyone else? Is the game even coded to react like that?

I swear, sometimes I can't figure out FM.


-Anxiety

[Abe Sargent]

After reviewing the film, the panel added two more match bans to this guy. In other words, his actions caused a three game ban - but I can't discipline him without my players getting upset at me. Sheesh.

-Anxiety

[Marc Vaughan]

Is the player a 'name' ? (ie. does he have a decent reputation, possibly better than most players at your club) .. if so then your other players might be a tad star-struck and impressed by him (and he a tad cocky).

If this is the case then you've a fine line to walk, bear in mind that if you DONT discipline him for acting an arse then your younger players (especially) may start to copy him .... something which could be very bad.

If this isn't the case then I'm guessing that you've just been unlucky to a certain extent, some players are more popular than others and sometimes their team-mates will back them up simply because they're worried it might be them in that situation next time (seems likely to be some of the problem as its the bit players mainly backing up someone who's just made the squad and might simply have been stressed and trying too hard), it'll blow over fairly quickly in most cases so don't stress ..

[Anthony]

how the hell can all that be coded into a game? i like marc, but i'm smelling some bullshit here. that's some pretty sophisticated stuff you just wrote in your post there. i never realized FM was that deep in terms of player personalities. damn impressive if it's true.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

how the hell can all that be coded into a game? i like marc, but i'm smelling some bullshit here. that's some pretty sophisticated stuff you just wrote in your post there. i never realized FM was that deep in terms of player personalities. damn impressive if it's true.

Having played the game quite a bit and watching my players' reactions closely, I don't think there was any BS in Marc's post.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Having played the game quite a bit and watching my players' reactions closely, I don't think there was any BS in Marc's post.

well, i don't mean malicious BS, but that explanation is kinda hard to swallow. like i said, mighty impressive if it's true. you mean to tell me a bad AI soccer player has the self-consciousness to know that they're a scrub and they know when a good player is on the team and will wind up "defending" that player or wanting to get on that player's good side ("if so then your other players might be a tad star-struck and impressed by him"). that's a little far fetched in my book.

[AlexB]

If you want to destroy the imagination a little, I guess it's coded in terms of a personality strength, so the guy who got sent off was an ebullient character (e.g.20/20 character strength) while those whi got pissed were closer to 1/20. So when the strong leader is pissed, the weak characters follow suit.

I would imagine having played CM/FM for years, if it is done this way, the character strength develops as the player ages and gets experience - in my squad I have a young left back who has great stats, but is inconsistent: the ass man reports that he is on the verge of breaking into the 1st team and will surely develop as he matures, which leads me to believe something like the above is the case...

[Vince]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Is the player a 'name' ? (ie. does he have a decent reputation, possibly better than most players at your club) .. if so then your other players might be a tad star-struck and impressed by him (and he a tad cocky).

If this is the case then you've a fine line to walk, bear in mind that if you DONT discipline him for acting an arse then your younger players (especially) may start to copy him .... something which could be very bad.

If this isn't the case then I'm guessing that you've just been unlucky to a certain extent, some players are more popular than others and sometimes their team-mates will back them up simply because they're worried it might be them in that situation next time (seems likely to be some of the problem as its the bit players mainly backing up someone who's just made the squad and might simply have been stressed and trying too hard), it'll blow over fairly quickly in most cases so don't stress ..

Posts like these make it very difficult to keep putting off my second attempt to get into this game. Just...damn. Impressive stuff, Marc.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

how the hell can all that be coded into a game? i like marc, but i'm smelling some bullshit here. that's some pretty sophisticated stuff you just wrote in your post there. i never realized FM was that deep in terms of player personalities. damn impressive if it's true.

To be quite honest its not that 'hard' when done a little at a time - its just that we've had a LOT of time to evolve the game engine in (thats one of the advantages of creating an engine which is solid and enhancing it over several generations, 'tis also a pain in the arse when we move engines because of the amount of stuff we have to redo and ensure is present ... hence the current FM engine isn't planned ever for a rewrite from scratch we made it modular because it was getting near impossible to redo all these little things in a 'sensible' timeframe, the idea now is to dismantle particular modules and redo them rather than the entire game - for FM2006 you might have noticed rather large changes to the training for instance).

PS> This side of things has been present since CM01-02 (or CM00-01 can't remember which version it first surfaced in, they all blend together in my memory ) .... again imho this shows areas in which we need to improve the feedback to users so they can clearly see the reasons why people get upset not just the end product (another thing to tack onto my ever growing 'to do' list ).

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

well, i don't mean malicious BS, but that explanation is kinda hard to swallow. like i said, mighty impressive if it's true. you mean to tell me a bad AI soccer player has the self-consciousness to know that they're a scrub and they know when a good player is on the team and will wind up "defending" that player or wanting to get on that player's good side ("if so then your other players might be a tad star-struck and impressed by him"). that's a little far fetched in my book.

If you want to drop into geek speak for a while then its done through the player personality model (each player in the game has various variables which indicate their personality and relationships with other people in the game) and a function called 'get_percieved_squad_status()' which indicates their position at the club (from their perspective) - other people also have views of players based upon their status and reputation which is where the 'star struck' side of things comes from.

For rather obvious reasons beyond that rather sketchy overview I'm not going to explain the workings of the game engine ... I'm quite pleased with how our personality modelling and media work (although there IS a lot in there which imho needs improvement its not a bad starting point for future growth and is fun and fairly realistic 99% of the time at present) and obviously don't want to give too much away to those outside of SI ...

PS> The words I use are basically how I think of things when I'm coding them and trying to form the relationships in the game - I want FM to be a sports management roleplaying game, its the direction its been moving towards for quite a while, for me its the relationship between the people and media in the game which helps makes it effective and 'real' for the people playing the game.

[Marc Vaughan]

PS> And yeah its the things like this which keep the game running at a nice sedate pace .... one day computers will keep up with our changes better

[Icy]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

I want FM to be a sports management roleplaying game, its the direction its been moving towards for quite a while, for me its the relationship between the people and media in the game which helps makes it effective and 'real' for the people playing the game.

And that is why FM is the BEST sport sim as it not only models the competitions stats but makes you feel that you're a real team manager that needs to deal with players not just manage stats. That impressed me in CM Italia (1997?) and keeps doing it every year. Now if this is into the new OOTP as it is in EHM, it's going to be the sim of my dreams, as i'm more into USA sports than soccer for the last 2 years.

This year i tried to get into soccer again as else i can't have conversations with the other 40Millions of Spanish, but to watch my fav team R.Madrid is really depressing as they're just a bunch of stars more worried about how do they look in the TV ads than about playing soccer. I could try to root for another team, but i can't after more than 20 years being a R.Madrid fan and watching them at the stadium tons of times.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Icy

And that is why FM is the BEST sport sim as it not only models the competitions stats but makes you feel that you're a real team manager that needs to deal with players not just manage stats. That impressed me in CM Italia (1997?) and keeps doing it every year. Now if this is into the new OOTP as it is in EHM, it's going to be the sim of my dreams, as i'm more into USA sports than soccer for the last 2 years.

This year i tried to get into soccer again as else i can't have conversations with the other 40Millions of Spanish, but to watch my fav team R.Madrid is really depressing as they're just a bunch of stars more worried about how do they look in the TV ads than about playing soccer. I could try to root for another team, but i can't after more than 20 years being a R.Madrid fan and watching them at the stadium tons of times.

Dola here, Soccer is probably my least favorite sport, but of all the sports sims I own, the fun/immersion factor in FM 2006 is by far the best.....Great game!

[FrogMan]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

PS> The words I use are basically how I think of things when I'm coding them and trying to form the relationships in the game - I want FM to be a sports management roleplaying game, its the direction its been moving towards for quite a while, for me its the relationship between the people and media in the game which helps makes it effective and 'real' for the people playing the game.

Let me echo what Icy said in regards to FM being the best. I've used this Football RPG a couple of times while chatting on IM with some friends. It's exactly how the game feels. You build your football world, let yourself be engulfed by it and you not only play it, you live it.

Thanks for the geek talk too Marc, that explained the thing anbout Anxiety's players getting upset and I'll keep it in mind if it ever happens to me in my career as a manager

FM

[CraigSca]

It's funny - this is the great thing about FM, but it's also the thing that prevents me from playing. There's something nice about having an accurate sim and being able to play at a pace YOU want. Though they are detailed sims, FOF and TCY are among the fastest out there. If I wanted to "whip out" a season in FM, it would probably require me to leave the game on overnight.

Although SI is the acknowledged leader in sports sims (non-American football), my concern is that OOTP will suddenly become FM baseball version, and I'll have to worry that calling out my overpaid rightfielder because he didn't run out a ground ball will cause a mutiny on the team because the younger players consider him a star (that and a 162 game schedule will take longer than the real baseball season to complete).

[MikeVick7]

I agree with all the above.

Marc - I hate to threadjack here, but is there any progress being made on the game crashes with the WWSM digital download? I've been playing with "threading" off for the last two weeks now and it's starting to drive me nuts.

I'm assuming a fix won't come in it's own separate patch but I'm just curious if there is head-way being made.

[FrogMan]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Although SI is the acknowledged leader in sports sims (non-American football), my concern is that OOTP will suddenly become FM baseball version, and I'll have to worry that calling out my overpaid rightfielder because he didn't run out a ground ball will cause a mutiny on the team because the younger players consider him a star (that and a 162 game schedule will take longer than the real baseball season to complete).

You know, that's a very valid concern. I like playing it slow and I play a season in FM in about 2 weeks real time, but we play something like 40 games and I manage every game (5-15 minutes a game). Maybe somebody playing EHM could chime in regarding how they deal with this. I mean the NHL season still is 80+ games long...

FM

[MikeVick7]

Originally Posted by FrogMan

You know, that's a very valid concern. I like playing it slow and I play a season in FM in about 2 weeks real time, but we play something like 40 games and I manage every game (5-15 minutes a game). Maybe somebody playing EHM could chime in regarding how they deal with this. I mean the NHL season still is 80+ games long...

FM

Really, the length of time it takes to play a season depends on how in-depth you want to be. You could take up to two weeks, but I remember plowing through a season in two days on FM2005. (And yes, I have a g/f...a very very understanding g/f. ) And that's playing 60+ games in the EPL / FA Cup / Carling Cup / Champions League...etc.

What I've noticed is that just taking over a team takes a little extra time but after you've been at a club for a couple seasons, sometimes things can almost go on auto pilot. Especially if you're not having to promote through the ranks.

I can't believe the extra time I'm taking this season with gameday strategy. For the first time in FM I'm actually looking at all of the attributes of my opposition and setting up my strategy to counter their strengths/weaknesses. In year's past, I would just roll out my team and let 'em play and not understand why I would be shutdown in some games and look good in others.

[riz]

Originally Posted by FrogMan

You know, that's a very valid concern. I like playing it slow and I play a season in FM in about 2 weeks real time, but we play something like 40 games and I manage every game (5-15 minutes a game). Maybe somebody playing EHM could chime in regarding how they deal with this. I mean the NHL season still is 80+ games long...

FM

In EHM, you can always let your Head Coach or assistants coach the games you don't feel like managing through yourself. Makes it a bit quicker to go through seasons. At E3, I started a new game every morning and let the Head Coach take care of most of my games which meant I was able to finish one season per day at the stand

But I guess that all comes down to personal taste when deciding how many games you want to coach yourself etc.

[Abe Sargent]

Good stuff here - thanks Marc!!!


-Anxiety

[Abe Sargent]

Heh - In case anybody cares, my third striker, the one this new guy replaced, went on a tear while the new guy was sitting and notched 2nd League player of the month with 7 goals despite us being in 17th. So, apparently, competition can motivate and work

-Anxiety

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

If you want to drop into geek speak for a while then its done through the player personality model (each player in the game has various variables which indicate their personality and relationships with other people in the game) and a function called 'get_percieved_squad_status()' which indicates their position at the club (from their perspective) - other people also have views of players based upon their status and reputation which is where the 'star struck' side of things comes from.

For rather obvious reasons beyond that rather sketchy overview I'm not going to explain the workings of the game engine ... I'm quite pleased with how our personality modelling and media work (although there IS a lot in there which imho needs improvement its not a bad starting point for future growth and is fun and fairly realistic 99% of the time at present) and obviously don't want to give too much away to those outside of SI ...

PS> The words I use are basically how I think of things when I'm coding them and trying to form the relationships in the game - I want FM to be a sports management roleplaying game, its the direction its been moving towards for quite a while, for me its the relationship between the people and media in the game which helps makes it effective and 'real' for the people playing the game.

seriously, that's really impressive. now i have to buy the newest FM you bastard.

in all seriousness, i didn't doubt what you were saying, it was more being flabergasted at the complex universe you guys have been able to set up. those are the kinds of scenarios i've always wanted to manage a team in. i keep forgetting how much of a head start you SI guys have had on other text sim companies.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by FrogMan

You know, that's a very valid concern. I like playing it slow and I play a season in FM in about 2 weeks real time, but we play something like 40 games and I manage every game (5-15 minutes a game). Maybe somebody playing EHM could chime in regarding how they deal with this. I mean the NHL season still is 80+ games long...

FM

how can you sim a match without playing it? i was never able to figure that out.

[DaddyTorgo]

in ehm it's in the manager options sub-menu

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

how can you sim a match without playing it? i was never able to figure that out.

I don't believe you can watch the games without managing in either FM or EHM.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

I don't believe you can watch the games without managing in either FM or EHM.

rats. i figured that. when it comes to managing a soccer game i have 1/18 of the knowledge i have in football. i always feel like i'm the factor holding the team back. but i guess this is much like real life sports - if every manager knew how to best utilize his players then every game would be a draw cuz every manager would be coaxing maximum production out of his team.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by riz

In EHM, you can always let your Head Coach or assistants coach the games you don't feel like managing through yourself. Makes it a bit quicker to go through seasons.

Now if you could only turn over control to the coaches and sim through whole chunks of the season at a time, but still be alerted by major in-game events (trade offers, injuries, etc) like you can in OOTP. If I remember right, the only way to rapidly sim was to go "on vacation", which meant missing out on everything that was happening in the meantime.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Dola here, Soccer is probably my least favorite sport, but of all the sports sims I own, the fun/immersion factor in FM 2006 is by far the best.....Great game!

Agreed. I would rank my favorites like this:

Football
Hockey
Basketball
Soccer
Baseball

FM is easily the best soccer sim ever.

Sidenote to HA: Don't know how much you've ever played FM, if you've given it a shot and can't get into it or what - but in my opinion, if SI ever did an American Football game, I think we'd all have a new favorite game of all-time.

[lynchjm24]

How much of the media/player interaction is in the NHL game?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

Agreed. I would rank my favorites like this:

Football
Hockey
Basketball
Soccer
Baseball

FM is easily the best soccer sim ever.

Sidenote to HA: Don't know how much you've ever played FM, if you've given it a shot and can't get into it or what - but in my opinion, if SI ever did an American Football game, I think we'd all have a new favorite game of all-time.

i've played the FM series before, couldn't quite get into it but i was extremely impressed with the game, which is why i will get it again. i enjoyed it more when i did the MLS andwas able to play as the Metrostars. just trying to figure out now if i want instant gratification by downloading if i'm not too lazy to go to a store. i'm thinking with this being Black Friday i'm might just download the game.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

How much of the media/player interaction is in the NHL game?

Its pretty darn good (not that I'm biased ) ... some bits are behind FM, but then again some are in front ... we stole* the 'player bios' for FM2006 from EHM for instance

*One of the reasons I wanted SI to expand into other sports is because working with other talented designers like Riz and Markus mean we can help each other by borrowing and adapting each others ideas to each game ... so far its been working really well imho.

[kiwiLB57]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

*One of the reasons I wanted SI to expand into other sports is because working with other talented designers like Riz and Markus mean we can help each other by borrowing and adapting each others ideas to each game ... so far its been working really well imho.

Rugby Union please. Surely this has to be the next 'global' sport for SI!



I love FM2006 by the way, I liked it before I liked soccer/football. The game got me into the sport.

Cheers

Raymond

[winkingpirate]

Marc...

What other bits of cross-pollination have occured between the different games? In particular, any things from OOTP that have found their way into FM?

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by kiwiLB57

Rugby Union please. Surely this has to be the next 'global' sport for SI!



I love FM2006 by the way, I liked it before I liked soccer/football. The game got me into the sport.

Cheers

Raymond

I dunno. How they gonna code teabagging, or 'Ring of Fire'? How the former that affect team morale, or the latter, in FM stats, agility or acceleration?

And natural fitness for someone like Darren Garfoth? Negative numbers are good in FM you know!

[Abe Sargent]

I have another quick FM relationship question. I think this is true, but I've never observed it that much.

I just signed a pair of non-english speaking players for my team. One speaks French, the other French and Portugese.

In order to help them acclimate, I signed a coach who speaks portugese and french and I'm pursuing a cheap young winger project who speaks french. Does having extra players and coaches who speak a common language help in getting them acclimated? I always assumed it did, but I've never read it anywhere.

-Anxiety

[Sidhe]

I cannot answer that question..

I just played all day long. I'm so whipped by this game. I admired FM2005 but didn't love it. Now, I'm totally involved. Somehow, in my 4th season at Basingstoke, I have stumbled on the magic formula. I've been in 1st place all year long, and with four games to go, I cannot finish outside the playoffs. I might get my first promotion! But if we do get promoted, I guess it'll be time to worry about instant relagation.

I experienced the "end season slump" and a number of blown leads, but survived it thanks to all the advice I've read. And I also survived my one brilliant stroke that was SUPPOSED to defeat the slump, but actually turned into a terrible mistake. I transferred in a very good midfielder (who only wanted 700 pounds a week -- in the Conference South!). This would likely have been a good thing, if he hadn't blown out his knee while I awaited the transfer window.. but instead, it was a lot of money wasted. He was going to be out so long, I had to free transfer him. He'd have eaten up way more than the fee I had to pay to get rid of him.

Took the board from "delighted" to "pleased" in one fell swoop. And ate up all our transfer money, too.

But we survived it! And we survived losing our two best strikers for a month.

It feels like I accomplished something, but really, I just stayed up too late..

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

I have another quick FM relationship question. I think this is true, but I've never observed it that much.

I just signed a pair of non-english speaking players for my team. One speaks French, the other French and Portugese.

In order to help them acclimate, I signed a coach who speaks portugese and french and I'm pursuing a cheap young winger project who speaks french. Does having extra players and coaches who speak a common language help in getting them acclimated? I always assumed it did, but I've never read it anywhere.

-Anxiety

Yes it is supposed to help.

[vex]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Dola here, Soccer is probably my least favorite sport, but of all the sports sims I own, the fun/immersion factor in FM 2006 is by far the best.....Great game!

*tweet* 5 yard penalty. Improper use of "dola".

[Poli]

Sometimes? I can't figure the game out at all.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by MikeVick7

I agree with all the above.

Marc - I hate to threadjack here, but is there any progress being made on the game crashes with the WWSM digital download? I've been playing with "threading" off for the last two weeks now and it's starting to drive me nuts.

I'm assuming a fix won't come in it's own separate patch but I'm just curious if there is head-way being made.

I believe a fix is in test now - if you email Joe O'Reilly or myself then we'll put you on the beta for it to ensure it works ok.

(interim solution of turning off threading seems to work for most people if you haven't done so already)

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

I have another quick FM relationship question. I think this is true, but I've never observed it that much.

I just signed a pair of non-english speaking players for my team. One speaks French, the other French and Portugese.

In order to help them acclimate, I signed a coach who speaks portugese and french and I'm pursuing a cheap young winger project who speaks french. Does having extra players and coaches who speak a common language help in getting them acclimated? I always assumed it did, but I've never read it anywhere.

-Anxiety

Yeah it has a positive effect - it can be a larger effect isthere are postive relationships between the players / staff.

[Abe Sargent]

I just got called a "media-friendly boss" after a year at Carlisle. That's neat. I;ve developed into a guy whom the media likes. Yay!

-Anxiety

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

I just got called a "media-friendly boss" after a year at Carlisle. That's neat. I;ve developed into a guy whom the media likes. Yay!

-Anxiety

I did the same thing. My media skill shot up to 20 after I repeatedly made comments about other managers game after game. I went from "rookie manager" to "media friendly boss" in about two weeks!

I wonder how long it takes you to become a player's "favored personnel?"

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by samifan24

I wonder how long it takes you to become a player's "favored personnel?"

I am not sure how long it takes. I know I did not notice I was "favored personnel" of most of my players until my third season.

[Cringer]

I just posted this at the end of my long post in the other FM thread, but I will repost here as it looks like maybe there will be a better chance someone knows...

My one question, is when does my reputation go up? I am still listed as 'unproven' after all of this and I wonder what it takes to atleast get to the 'local' reputation? Thats all I want. By now all of Northern Ireland should be talking about my great managing skills.

And now I will add another question I just thought of asking....

What effects you Handling Pressure rating exactly? They all start at 10 I believe, and mine dropped fairly early on. After all my success I think I have only recently brought it up a few points to get around 10 again (I think I am at 11). The only thing I could think of that would effect this is if you start making drastic changes during a match when you fall behind. I did that early on some and have since learned my lesson with that for my team, since they perform better if I let them do their thing and I only make slight adjustments (although I noticed my opponents do change formations often).

[daedalus]

I made Titi's list of favoured personnel toward the end of the first season. Have not made anyone else's list, however.

[samifan24]

I managed Barnsley from L1 to the Championship and my reputation went from "local" to "national" immediately. When my team began to struggle and lost something like six or seven in a row, my reputation went back down to "local."

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by samifan24

I managed Barnsley from L1 to the Championship and my reputation went from "local" to "national" immediately. When my team began to struggle and lost something like six or seven in a row, my reputation went back down to "local."

I was thinking that maybe being in Northern Ireland was part of what was holding me back. But I still think I should have atleast a local reputation. The offer from the Scottish club I turned down before year 3 was almost triple my current salary so I thought maybe it had changed then...but no go. No I am hoping if I can win a cup or the Premier championship that it will go up then. Winning the NI1 after being in NI2 the year before must not have been enough for people.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Cringer

My one question, is when does my reputation go up? I am still listed as 'unproven' after all of this and I wonder what it takes to atleast get to the 'local' reputation? Thats all I want. By now all of Northern Ireland should be talking about my great managing skills.

Sorry if I've missed it anywhere but what achievements have you managed? - bear in mind that the NI league is a very minor one and a lot of people in NI actually follow either the Scottish league or English league in preference to it*, so you'll have to make a major splash to have an impact there ...

*This is modelled in the game database so has an effect on such things

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Sorry if I've missed it anywhere but what achievements have you managed? - bear in mind that the NI league is a very minor one and a lot of people in NI actually follow either the Scottish league or English league in preference to it*, so you'll have to make a major splash to have an impact there ...

*This is modelled in the game database so has an effect on such things

That is along the lines of what I was thinking, that it had something to do with NI, I just wasn't sure what. Now it seems like I know. My accomplishments so far are no huge outside of my own head I guess. I took an expected mid-table NI2 team and finished second, getting promoted to NI1 after my first year. My first year in NI1 I won the championship, but my best finish in a cup was a quarter final appearance. My third season (first in Premier) I finished 4th when I was expected to be near the bottom, yet again my best Cup finish was only a quarter final appearance again.

So my assumption I think sounds right then, that if I win the Premier in this, my 4th season, or win one of the Cups as I am about to do I hope (in the Final) then it could go up. Or maybe it will take both for it to go up, either way you answered my question, NI just doesn't pay attention enough to their own league. I hope to change that.

Thanks for the answer.