OT: Buckeyes move up to #2 in BCS standings, TCU drops to #8

Vegas Vic · 11-17-2003, 05:12 PM

Should be a very exciting last few weeks.

BCS Standings

korme · 11-17-2003, 05:18 PM

Chubby · 11-17-2003, 05:20 PM

they lost ground in the computer polls and strength of schedule. the only way they are going to catch up is if they move up in the normal polls which aint going to happen without some losses to the teams above them...

Vegas Vic · 11-17-2003, 05:33 PM

Assuming OU makes it to the Sugar Bowl, I honestly think that USC has the best chance to knock them off. They match up more favorably than OSU, plus they have better team speed and athleticism. I don't think that OSU would score an offensive touchdown against OU.

digamma · 11-17-2003, 05:50 PM

Does anyone have a link to the current BCS selection and qualification rules? I've found 2001 selection guidelines on-line, but I think they've tweaked them some since then.

Eaglesfan27 · 11-17-2003, 06:06 PM

What did USC do to lose it's #2 status? Didn't they win by enough points this week?

hollmt · 11-17-2003, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eaglesfan27
What did USC do to lose it's #2 status? Didn't they win by enough points this week?

um...they played the overpowering and dominant arizona squad

henry296 · 11-17-2003, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eaglesfan27
What did USC do to lose it's #2 status? Didn't they win by enough points this week?

And the BCS removed margin of victory from all computer polls.

Todd

mckerney · 11-17-2003, 06:39 PM

Overrated.

korme · 11-17-2003, 06:41 PM

Just like those Vikings.

mckerney · 11-17-2003, 06:42 PM

More like the whole Big Ten.

Solecismic · 11-17-2003, 06:47 PM

I'm still wondering why TCU is even this high. Was it the impressive South Florida victory? Or Navy? Or that 62-55 victory over Houston, which lost to Michigan 50-3? Or maybe it was Louisville?

Apart from those four, they haven't played a single winning team. And none of those four are ranked.

Including Southern Mississippi (7-3) and the season-ender against Southern Methodist (0-11), TCU's opponents have a combined .398 winning percentage.

Don't we skewer major conference teams for playing a non-conference schedule with a combined 10-33 record (.233)? And they don't have to face tough in-conference opponents.

Look at Ohio State, which might get bumped out of the BCS in TCU's favor if they lose to Michigan and people get their wish...

Four wins already over ranked teams. Opponents' combined winning percentage of .565. Non-conference opponents with a 25-18 record (.581). But a loss to 7-4 Wisconsin, which would be a good bowl matchup for TCU.

TCU has earned a bowl bid, no question about it. But the Frogs just haven't shown anything top-eight worthy.

Eaglesfan27 · 11-17-2003, 07:10 PM

I know margin of victory has been removed. However, I feel USC is the superior team over Ohio State at this point. USC has been playing the most dominant football besides Oklahoma in the country the last few weeks. I'm just very frustrated that their strong play might go unrewarded.

JW · 11-17-2003, 08:12 PM

Interesting that Arizona players say LSU is better than USC and Alabama players say LSU is better than OU. LSU deserves the same consideration for the #2 spot as OSU and USC. And LSU has a tough remaining schedule, facing Ole Miss at Ole Miss (Ole Miss goes to the SEC Championship Game if it wins, and it is Eli Manning's last home game.), Arkansas at home, and then, if LSU wins those games, the SEC title game in Atlanta. Most likely not enough to raise LSU up to #2 in the BCS. It is unfortunate that LSU had two opponents drop LSU before the start of the season, Marshal being one, replaced at the last minute by Western Illinois. That and the other switch really hurt their ratings in the BCS. UL-Monroe was also an addition after another team dropped out. (The habit continues; the cowards at Va. Tech have dropped a game that had been schedule at LSU early next season, so LSU is currently scrambling to find another home opponent.) LSU may lose next week, but right now they are playing as well as anyone in the nation.

Noop · 11-17-2003, 08:25 PM

Now this is a big what if but... What if Oklahoma, Ohio State, USC, LSU, Georgia, Tennessse all lost? Would TCU play Michigan for the National Title or would Oklahoma still get in? Also if OU gets in and loses to Michigan will TCU get a share of the title?

kcchief19 · 11-17-2003, 08:29 PM

Personally, I don't want TCU to finish in the top 6 and get the automatic BCS bid, because if they do it means we will continue to be subjected to this horrific crime of nature that is college's football postseason.

The complaint of TCU and other non-BCS teams is that the system is not designed to let them in. It's easy to say TCU should play a tougher schedule. But they played Arizona and Vanderbilt. Do you think USC or Georgia wants to play TCU? If if TCU had the foresight four years ago to schedule Nebraksa this year, we all know Nebraska would look at last year's record and the team coming back and whip out their checkbook and get out of the game. As a result, the non-BCS schools can't design a schedule that will get them in the game.

Looking at the numbers, it's easy to prove that TCU barely belongs on the field with Iowa State much less Oklahoma. But I think that regardless of the schedule you play, going undefeated is hard to do and should get you something better than a bid in the HappyFunBall.com Bowl. I think seeing TCU in a BCS bowl and giving them a shot would be a lot more fun than watching LSU and Miami play in a what for them is a consolation game.

The best hope for the BCS bashers like myself is this: TCU gets left out and the No. 2 remains muddled like it is now and the eventual choice seems like it is drawn completely at random. It would really help if Oklahoma was stunned in the Big XII title game and the national championship ended up with something like USC vs. Texas.

Craptacular · 11-17-2003, 08:50 PM

Assuming LSU wins their last two regular season games, the potential rematch with Georgia has an interesting twist. Beating Ole Miss and Arkansas would give them a nice boost in the computers and SOS, to the point where they should be a solid #4 or maybe #3 in the computers. They are currently behind Texas, TCU, and Tennessee in some of the computers, but all of those teams finish with weak opponents (at least TCU plays Southern Miss, but SMU will kill their ratings). It could be close enough in the BCS rankings that quality win points might play a big role. LSU needs Georgia to keep a high ranking, but then they have to BEAT Georgia again, consequently knocking them down and lessening the QW points. Of course, LSU would not get double points for beating Georgia twice. LSU may already be at their "ceiling" in the computers before the SEC title game, so a win over Georgia might not affect their other ratings enough to offset the loss of QW points.

So what should LSU be rooting for (besides winning out, and losses by OSU and USC of course)?? Well, they need Tennessee to lose, so Florida would win the SEC East by virtue of their win over Georgia. It would also help if Florida beat FSU, to further help LSU's SOS and computer rankings. Then Georgia needs to win out. So, you could have a highly ranked Georgia team that does not have to risk a loss in the SEC title game.

I like the BCS, if for no other reason, because it gives me something to do when I'm bored.

ScottVib · 11-17-2003, 09:00 PM

Remember they removed margin of victory because that was what put Nebraska in the National Title Game a couple of years ago... without that now TCU's 3 point overtime squeeker looks the same to the computers as the 45 point whipping USC put on them.

If USC gets bumped out the National Title Game I wonder if people start clamoring to put margin of victory (with a certain cutoff) back in?

USC's great crime was of course playing Arizona, because Arizona stinks USC's strength of schedule went down and Ohio State moved up. That's the same reason why TCU wouldn't have held onto the #6 after playing an 0-11 SMU club.

Scoobz0202 · 11-17-2003, 09:24 PM

Yeah. OSU only gained what? .21 points with the victory. Only reason they went ahead was due to the SOS hit that USC took.

Craptacular · 11-17-2003, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noop
Now this is a big what if but... What if Oklahoma, Ohio State, USC, LSU, Georgia, Tennessse all lost? Would TCU play Michigan for the National Title or would Oklahoma still get in? Also if OU gets in and loses to Michigan will TCU get a share of the title?

I think OU would likely stay in the top 2 with a loss, unless they got creamed by Texas Tech and the voters dropped them down quite a bit. I don't know the computer formulas well enough to know for sure though.

It is possible for TCU to gain a share of the title without playing in the Sugar Bowl. The coaches poll must declare the winner of the BCS title game the champion, but the AP voters are free to choose any team they want.

stkelly52 · 11-17-2003, 10:25 PM

To me, no one, not even Oklahoma has proven that they can beat TCU. Sure I believe that Oklahoma would win. But until someone can prove that they can beat TCU they are at least tied for the best team in the country

hollmt · 11-17-2003, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stkelly52
To me, no one, not even Oklahoma has proven that they can beat TCU. Sure I believe that Oklahoma would win. But until someone can prove that they can beat TCU they are at least tied for the best team in the country

but when ohio state wins 18 in a row over the course of a season and a half they arent the best team in the country?

its pretty hard to PROVE you can beat someone unless two teams line up and actually play it out now isnt it? and even then there are arguments that the refs blew some call or some excuse.

i think it is funny how this season TCU is undefeated and they are receiving all this praise, yet OSU does it last season and they get slapped with lucky this, or the refs did that.

hollmt · 11-17-2003, 10:38 PM

one more thing...isnt TCU doing the same thing that OSU did last season? they have won 6 games by a touchdown or less this year, and even more than that, they have won 5 of those 6 by 3 points!

i am in no way bashing TCUs accomplishments, because the bottom line is they are winning, and that is the greatest stat of all...not offensive output, defensive output, who they play. none of that matters. they are undefeated and you should praise that. just that when other teams *cough* OHIO STATE *cough* does it, they get bashed as being lucky and dont get the praise when they put up a nice 18 game win streak.

BishopMVP · 11-17-2003, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hollmt
one more thing...isnt TCU doing the same thing that OSU did last season? they have won 6 games by a touchdown or less this year, and even more than that, they have won 5 of those 6 by 3 points!

Yes, but Ohio State got the chance to prove those doubters wrong and TCU won't.

I for one thought Ohio State was lucky all last season and would lose in the Fiesta Bowl. I for one think TCU has been lucky this season and would lose in a BCS game. I was wrong last year but I'm not going to find out if I'm wrong this year, because if TCU wins out they will be playing December 31st against Utah in the Liberty Bowl, not January 1st against Texas or some comparable team. That is what is wrong with the system (not just the BCS).

JeeberD · 11-17-2003, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Solecismic
I'm still wondering why TCU is even this high.

...the Frogs just haven't shown anything top-eight worthy.

Hmmmm, looks like someone needs to do some tweaking to their rankings program....

tucker342 · 11-17-2003, 11:36 PM

Of course they should put margin of victory back in the BCS, maybe it shouldn't be a big factor, but it should be there. If OSU gets in to the NC game over USC or LSU, it will be a travesty(sp?). I'm sorry OSU fans but when your team can only beat Penn State by 1 point(I think that's how much they won by), then you don't deserve to play in the NC game, plain and simple!

Of course this will all by trivial when Michigan crushes them

hollmt · 11-17-2003, 11:49 PM

I disagree on the margin of victory needing to be put back in the BCS formula. if you beat a team, you beat a team, you dont need to hang your hat on the fact that you beat them by 1 pt or 77 points.

a win is a win is a win, no matter how you do it...call it luck (which i also totally disagree with) or call it bad calls by the refs. and this whole luck thing needs to be tossed out the window also. both teams are on the field playing ball and just cause a team makes a mistake and it helps another team win doesnt mean the victor is lucky.

in saturdays game vs. Purdue everone was on the wagon again on how OSU was lucky to win the game. Excuse me? Im sorry the Purdue kicker couldnt make a field goal...and he shanked it wide cause he couldnt handle the pressure. If im not mistaken Nugent (OSUs kicker) had his kick blocked and there was no lucky comment made there. In fact im sure if the roles had been reversed and Purdue made their kick and OSU had missed, there would of been no talk of how lucky Purdue got to win the game.

eh..the same argument week in and week out. im gonna say this too though. if OSU wins out and so does USC, im sorry to all the Buckeye haters and USC fans out there, but the fact that OSU is defending champs and played a tougher schedule all season long, especially down the stretch, gives them the right to play for it all to PROVE if they can beat OU or not. and even then, if they win...im sure the refs will do something stupid and help the Luckeyes out.

sterlingice · 11-18-2003, 12:26 AM

Someone want to pass me some of what the New York Times poll is smoking?

2-loss Texas at 3
3-loss Florida at 4
USC behind them at 5
Mississippi at 8
LSU all the way down at 11 (I mean, really, I'm really critical of them and their schedule but they should be 4th)
TCU coming in at... 25

SI

ISiddiqui · 11-18-2003, 12:33 AM

And it's the NY Times poll that ultimately moved USC down to 3. A poll that nutty should not decide who moves where in the BCS.

hollmt · 11-18-2003, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ISiddiqui
And it's the NY Times poll that ultimately moved USC down to 3. A poll that nutty should not decide who moves where in the BCS.

actually if you want to get technical about it, lets say the NY times computer poll gave USC a 3 (and im being generous and not saying a 4 like 3 of the other computers gave them) instead of a 5. So that is 23 points across the 7 polls. 23 divided by 7 equals 3.28 rounded to the nearest and they would still be at 3.33. and in the same spot they are in now. where it is now they are at 25 across the 7 polls which is 3.58 rounded down to 3.33, when it probably should of been rounded up to 3.67. So you could even round the 3.28 to a 3.17 and USC would still be at 7.55 and still below OSU in the polls. So it isnt just the NY times poll that is hurting them.

as a side note does anyone know the rules on the rounding they do for the computer polls?

hollmt · 11-18-2003, 01:01 AM

ah..nevermind all that above..I did the reading on the explanation and found that they drop the lowest (worst) of the computer polls.

so more math then!

Lets say the NYC gave them a 3 (again benefit of the doubt) and that you drop one of the 4s on the computer poll. that is 19 points divided by 6 polls which is still a 3.17 and USC is still .03 behind OSU...as they should be!

hollmt · 11-18-2003, 01:10 AM

and now to continue talking and responding to myself since it is so late and all, i think the BCS should do what gymnatics do, and drop the lowest (worst) and the highest (best) of the puter polls.

then OSU would be even further ahead of USC cause they would lose that 2 ranking that Jeff Sagarin gave them.

mckerney · 11-18-2003, 01:13 AM

Or give more weight to voter polls than computer polls, as the voters obviously seem to have a better understanding than the computers.

That said, it won't matter after the weekend.

hollmt · 11-18-2003, 01:20 AM

actually the voters are more biased than the computers. the computers just weigh numbers and dont "judge" anything but numbers.

the more you let humans control anything the more suspect it is.

i know it may be a lame example, but just look at boxing, ice skating, gymnastics...anything where judges decide the winner. its biased and based on certain little things.

sometimes i think the WWE is more real than some of those other sports cause at least they come right out and tell you it is fake and fixed.

mckerney · 11-18-2003, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hollmt
actually the voters are more biased than the computers. the computers just weigh numbers and dont "judge" anything but numbers.

the more you let humans control anything the more suspect it is.

i know it may be a lame example, but just look at boxing, ice skating, gymnastics...anything where judges decide the winner. its biased and based on certain little things.

sometimes i think the WWE is more real than some of those other sports cause at least they come right out and tell you it is fake and fixed.

Yes, and anything you do with computers will most likely give you an incomplete result.

That said, I'd rather have people decide it rather than computers.

hollmt · 11-18-2003, 01:31 AM

yeah id rather have people decide things too...cause i can slip them a bill or two to sway their vote (and dont think it doesnt happen in any sport), the human factor is way screwed up and biased.

but now this is evolving into a whole new beast/discussion. you can say computers give incomplete results, and i can say people are biased and easily influenced but in the end it doesnt really matter i guess.

Honolulu_Blue · 11-18-2003, 02:56 AM

This whole debate ends Saturday.

BishopMVP · 11-18-2003, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JeeberD
[img]Hmmmm, looks like someone needs to do some tweaking to their rankings program....

It seems there are quite a few issues here. I mean, there's no way that Miami should be ahead of Miami

Rich1033 · 11-18-2003, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tucker342
Of course they should put margin of victory back in the BCS, maybe it shouldn't be a big factor, but it should be there. If OSU gets in to the NC game over USC or LSU, it will be a travesty(sp?). I'm sorry OSU fans but when your team can only beat Penn State by 1 point(I think that's how much they won by), then you don't deserve to play in the NC game, plain and simple!

Of course this will all by trivial when Michigan crushes them

This seems to be the opinion of a lot of people and I just dont understand.

First let me say that Im a huge Michigan fan, so I have no love at all for OSU. But what kind of a reason is "they only beat Penn State by 1 point"? At least OSU lost to a decent team, USC lost to Cal. The way I look at it, if they both have the same record, then I go and look at who played the tougher schedule. Advantage OSU. Add in the fact that they are the defending champs, I just cant say they do not deserve a shot at defending their title.

I have already bet money that UM will beat OSU by at least 10 points. If Ohio State somehow manages to go to Michigan and win there should be no doubt that they deserve to be the number 2 team in the country.

IMetTrentGreen · 11-18-2003, 08:13 AM

anyone want to flame me again for saying tcu won't make it in?

KWhit · 11-18-2003, 09:42 AM

The point here should be that you can make a very good case for OSU or USC (or even LSU, IMO) to be the 2nd best team in the nation.

The fact that one of these teams will get the chance at the ultimate prize while the other two will not is a joke. They are so close to being equal in my mind that it isn't fair to reward one and not the others.

In other words: Gimme a playoff!

RendeR · 11-18-2003, 10:19 AM

TCU doesn't deserve to be in the BCS top 6, maybe 7 or 8 because they are undefeated, but based on that schedule, and their final game being against a winless and hapless opponent, they don't deserve that shot.

They'll get a bowl game, but don't come after me when they get there and get killed.

RendeR · 11-18-2003, 10:22 AM

And along the playoff lines, I like the idea of keeping the BCS system in place. Keep the weighting of the polls and the computers the same *since there are two polls and 7 computers the polls already have a large advantage in weight* take the top 8 teams at the end of the scoring and have 3 weeks of playoffs. Simple as that. 7 games, 1 champion that everyone might possibly agree on.

And TONS of money for all of them, so the money issue won't matter.

Glengoyne · 11-18-2003, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kcchief19
...

The complaint of TCU and other non-BCS teams is that the system is not designed to let them in. It's easy to say TCU should play a tougher schedule. But they played Arizona and Vanderbilt. Do you think USC or Georgia wants to play TCU? If if TCU had the foresight four years ago to schedule Nebraksa this year, we all know Nebraska would look at last year's record and the team coming back and whip out their checkbook and get out of the game. As a result, the non-BCS schools can't design a schedule that will get them in the game....

Actually Fresno State scheduled to get let in three seasons ago. The only thing is they couldn't hold up their end of the deal and lost a couple of WAC games, after beating Wisconson, Colorado, Oregon State, and Colorado State. Boy, wasn't that frustrating.

GrantDawg · 11-18-2003, 12:44 PM

I'll say this. My Bulldogs are a good team, but they are over-rated right now.

Butter · 11-18-2003, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Glengoyne
Actually Fresno State scheduled to get let in three seasons ago. The only thing is they couldn't hold up their end of the deal and lost a couple of WAC games, after beating Wisconson, Colorado, Oregon State, and Colorado State. Boy, wasn't that frustrating.

It was. I remember that. There was talk they should play for the title after the first few games.... UW and Oreg. St. finished up below .500, but Colorado almost passed Nebraska to play for the national title even with 2 losses. It's hard to schedule up that far in advance too, because it's very hard to predict who will be good. You can schedule perennial powers, but even they can go through bad patches.

hollmt · 11-18-2003, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RendeR
And along the playoff lines, I like the idea of keeping the BCS system in place. Keep the weighting of the polls and the computers the same *since there are two polls and 7 computers the polls already have a large advantage in weight* take the top 8 teams at the end of the scoring and have 3 weeks of playoffs. Simple as that. 7 games, 1 champion that everyone might possibly agree on.

And TONS of money for all of them, so the money issue won't matter.

i love the idea of a playoff with either 8 or 16 teams from the top of the list on the BCS. the only problem with that then is ther is no longer and argument as to who is #1 and #2 but rather who is number #8, #9, and #10 (for 8 team playoff) and #16, #17, #18 and so on (for 16 team playoff).

no longer would we argue who the top teams are but rather who the middle of the pack teams are and why the #18 team in the nation deserves a shot at the playoff etc. etc.

hollmt · 11-18-2003, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hollmt
i love the idea of a playoff with either 8 or 16 teams from the top of the list on the BCS. the only problem with that then is there is no longer an argument as to who is #1 and #2 but rather who is number #8, #9, and #10 (for 8 team playoff) and #16, #17, #18 and so on (for 16 team playoff).

no longer would we argue who the top teams are but rather who the middle of the pack teams are and why the #18 team in the nation deserves a shot at the playoff etc. etc.

Craptacular · 11-18-2003, 08:04 PM

OK, I'm bored again, so let me throw out a few scenarios that would really be fun to watch. All of these hinge on Michigan beating Ohio St, but they don't move up past all of the other 2-loss teams currently ahead of them in the BCS (Texas, Georgia, Tennessee), and USC losing one or both of their two games and falling out of the title picture. It could be very close. Anyway ...

Oklahoma beats A&M, but loses the Big 12 title game.
Tennessee loses (or Florida beats FSU and moves ahead of them in BCS and within 5 places of Georgia).
Georgia wins last two regular season games.
Florida beats LSU in SEC title game.
Oklahoma remains #1 in the BCS, but Georgia and Texas finish #2-#3 (or #3-#2).

If Texas is #2, can they play in the Sugar Bowl? Both BCS at-large teams are not allowed to come from the same conference. I'm guessing the #1 vs. #2 rule overrides this, and #3 Georgia gets left out, but Florida is in.

If Georgia is #2, then Texas gets left out, even though the #3 team is supposed to be guaranteed a BCS slot.
What if TCU is in the top 6? I think they get left out as well in either of those scenarios. Both at-large spots would be filled by the #1 and #2 team.

I think it might also be possible for two SEC teams (out of LSU, Georgia, and maybe Tennessee) to finish #1 and #2, while either Florida or Ole Miss wins the SEC title. This would not only require Michigan to win (possibly in a horrible game that the voters take into account) and USC to lose, but two losses by Oklahoma, and probably a loss by Texas. I still don't think TCU would move ahead of all those 2-loss teams!

We thought it was bad for Nebraska to play for the championship without winning their conference. What if BOTH teams were not conference champions??

edit: Sorry, I think I confused myself a little.

digamma · 11-18-2003, 08:29 PM

If Texas and Oklahoma are 1 and 2 in the BCS, then they would play for the national championship. If this happens AND Oklahoma loses the Big 12 Championship game, as I understand it, the winner of the Big 12 Championship would get bumped from the BCS--I am not sure if the rule is that only two teams from a conference can go to the BCS or if it is that if two teams from a conference are playing for the national title and they aren't the conference champ, then the conference champ gets bumped. However it is written, the result is the same. The Big 12 North Champ would be going to the Cotton or Holiday Bowl despite having won the Big 12. Confusing for sure.

11-17-2003, 07:10 PM	#13
Eaglesfan27 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New Jersey	I know margin of victory has been removed. However, I feel USC is the superior team over Ohio State at this point. USC has been playing the most dominant football besides Oklahoma in the country the last few weeks. I'm just very frustrated that their strong play might go unrewarded. __________________ Retired GM of the eNFL 2007 Super Bowl Champion Philadelphia Eagles (19-0 record.) GM of the WOOF 2006 Doggie Bowl Champion Atlantic City Gamblers. GM of the IHOF 2019 and 2022 IHOF Bowl Champion Asheville Axemen.

11-17-2003, 08:25 PM	#15
Noop Bonafide Seminole Fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Miami	Now this is a big what if but... What if Oklahoma, Ohio State, USC, LSU, Georgia, Tennessse all lost? Would TCU play Michigan for the National Title or would Oklahoma still get in? Also if OU gets in and loses to Michigan will TCU get a share of the title? __________________ Subby's favorite woman hater.

11-17-2003, 10:25 PM	#21
stkelly52 College Benchwarmer Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Seattle WA	To me, no one, not even Oklahoma has proven that they can beat TCU. Sure I believe that Oklahoma would win. But until someone can prove that they can beat TCU they are at least tied for the best team in the country __________________ Check out an undrafted free agent's attempt to make the Hall of Fame: Running to the Hall Now nominated for a Golden Scribe!

11-17-2003, 11:49 PM	#27
hollmt High School Varsity Join Date: Aug 2002	I disagree on the margin of victory needing to be put back in the BCS formula. if you beat a team, you beat a team, you dont need to hang your hat on the fact that you beat them by 1 pt or 77 points. a win is a win is a win, no matter how you do it...call it luck (which i also totally disagree with) or call it bad calls by the refs. and this whole luck thing needs to be tossed out the window also. both teams are on the field playing ball and just cause a team makes a mistake and it helps another team win doesnt mean the victor is lucky. in saturdays game vs. Purdue everone was on the wagon again on how OSU was lucky to win the game. Excuse me? Im sorry the Purdue kicker couldnt make a field goal...and he shanked it wide cause he couldnt handle the pressure. If im not mistaken Nugent (OSUs kicker) had his kick blocked and there was no lucky comment made there. In fact im sure if the roles had been reversed and Purdue made their kick and OSU had missed, there would of been no talk of how lucky Purdue got to win the game. eh..the same argument week in and week out. im gonna say this too though. if OSU wins out and so does USC, im sorry to all the Buckeye haters and USC fans out there, but the fact that OSU is defending champs and played a tougher schedule all season long, especially down the stretch, gives them the right to play for it all to PROVE if they can beat OU or not. and even then, if they win...im sure the refs will do something stupid and help the Luckeyes out. Last edited by hollmt : 11-17-2003 at 11:51 PM.

11-18-2003, 12:26 AM	#28
sterlingice Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Back in Houston!	Someone want to pass me some of what the New York Times poll is smoking? 2-loss Texas at 3 3-loss Florida at 4 USC behind them at 5 Mississippi at 8 LSU all the way down at 11 (I mean, really, I'm really critical of them and their schedule but they should be 4th) TCU coming in at... 25 SI __________________ Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!"

11-17-2003, 05:18 PM	#2
korme Go Reds Join Date: May 2001 Location: Bloodbuzz Ohio	yay

11-17-2003, 05:20 PM	#3
Chubby Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Syracuse, NY	they lost ground in the computer polls and strength of schedule. the only way they are going to catch up is if they move up in the normal polls which aint going to happen without some losses to the teams above them...

11-17-2003, 05:33 PM	#4
Vegas Vic Checkraising Tourists Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cocoa Beach, FL	Assuming OU makes it to the Sugar Bowl, I honestly think that USC has the best chance to knock them off. They match up more favorably than OSU, plus they have better team speed and athleticism. I don't think that OSU would score an offensive touchdown against OU.

11-17-2003, 05:50 PM	#5
digamma Torchbearer Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: On Lake Harriet	Does anyone have a link to the current BCS selection and qualification rules? I've found 2001 selection guidelines on-line, but I think they've tweaked them some since then.

11-17-2003, 06:06 PM	#6
Eaglesfan27 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New Jersey	What did USC do to lose it's #2 status? Didn't they win by enough points this week? __________________ Retired GM of the eNFL 2007 Super Bowl Champion Philadelphia Eagles (19-0 record.) GM of the WOOF 2006 Doggie Bowl Champion Atlantic City Gamblers. GM of the IHOF 2019 and 2022 IHOF Bowl Champion Asheville Axemen.

11-17-2003, 06:39 PM	#9
mckerney Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Overrated.

11-17-2003, 06:41 PM	#10
korme Go Reds Join Date: May 2001 Location: Bloodbuzz Ohio	Just like those Vikings.

11-17-2003, 06:42 PM	#11
mckerney Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	More like the whole Big Ten.

11-17-2003, 06:47 PM	#12
Solecismic Solecismic Software Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Canton, OH	I'm still wondering why TCU is even this high. Was it the impressive South Florida victory? Or Navy? Or that 62-55 victory over Houston, which lost to Michigan 50-3? Or maybe it was Louisville? Apart from those four, they haven't played a single winning team. And none of those four are ranked. Including Southern Mississippi (7-3) and the season-ender against Southern Methodist (0-11), TCU's opponents have a combined .398 winning percentage. Don't we skewer major conference teams for playing a non-conference schedule with a combined 10-33 record (.233)? And they don't have to face tough in-conference opponents. Look at Ohio State, which might get bumped out of the BCS in TCU's favor if they lose to Michigan and people get their wish... Four wins already over ranked teams. Opponents' combined winning percentage of .565. Non-conference opponents with a 25-18 record (.581). But a loss to 7-4 Wisconsin, which would be a good bowl matchup for TCU. TCU has earned a bowl bid, no question about it. But the Frogs just haven't shown anything top-eight worthy.

11-17-2003, 08:12 PM	#14
JW College Prospect Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Monroe, LA, USA	Interesting that Arizona players say LSU is better than USC and Alabama players say LSU is better than OU. LSU deserves the same consideration for the #2 spot as OSU and USC. And LSU has a tough remaining schedule, facing Ole Miss at Ole Miss (Ole Miss goes to the SEC Championship Game if it wins, and it is Eli Manning's last home game.), Arkansas at home, and then, if LSU wins those games, the SEC title game in Atlanta. Most likely not enough to raise LSU up to #2 in the BCS. It is unfortunate that LSU had two opponents drop LSU before the start of the season, Marshal being one, replaced at the last minute by Western Illinois. That and the other switch really hurt their ratings in the BCS. UL-Monroe was also an addition after another team dropped out. (The habit continues; the cowards at Va. Tech have dropped a game that had been schedule at LSU early next season, so LSU is currently scrambling to find another home opponent.) LSU may lose next week, but right now they are playing as well as anyone in the nation.

11-17-2003, 08:29 PM	#16
kcchief19 Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Kansas City, MO	Personally, I don't want TCU to finish in the top 6 and get the automatic BCS bid, because if they do it means we will continue to be subjected to this horrific crime of nature that is college's football postseason. The complaint of TCU and other non-BCS teams is that the system is not designed to let them in. It's easy to say TCU should play a tougher schedule. But they played Arizona and Vanderbilt. Do you think USC or Georgia wants to play TCU? If if TCU had the foresight four years ago to schedule Nebraksa this year, we all know Nebraska would look at last year's record and the team coming back and whip out their checkbook and get out of the game. As a result, the non-BCS schools can't design a schedule that will get them in the game. Looking at the numbers, it's easy to prove that TCU barely belongs on the field with Iowa State much less Oklahoma. But I think that regardless of the schedule you play, going undefeated is hard to do and should get you something better than a bid in the HappyFunBall.com Bowl. I think seeing TCU in a BCS bowl and giving them a shot would be a lot more fun than watching LSU and Miami play in a what for them is a consolation game. The best hope for the BCS bashers like myself is this: TCU gets left out and the No. 2 remains muddled like it is now and the eventual choice seems like it is drawn completely at random. It would really help if Oklahoma was stunned in the Big XII title game and the national championship ended up with something like USC vs. Texas.

11-17-2003, 08:50 PM	#17
Craptacular College Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Mad City, WI	Assuming LSU wins their last two regular season games, the potential rematch with Georgia has an interesting twist. Beating Ole Miss and Arkansas would give them a nice boost in the computers and SOS, to the point where they should be a solid #4 or maybe #3 in the computers. They are currently behind Texas, TCU, and Tennessee in some of the computers, but all of those teams finish with weak opponents (at least TCU plays Southern Miss, but SMU will kill their ratings). It could be close enough in the BCS rankings that quality win points might play a big role. LSU needs Georgia to keep a high ranking, but then they have to BEAT Georgia again, consequently knocking them down and lessening the QW points. Of course, LSU would not get double points for beating Georgia twice. LSU may already be at their "ceiling" in the computers before the SEC title game, so a win over Georgia might not affect their other ratings enough to offset the loss of QW points. So what should LSU be rooting for (besides winning out, and losses by OSU and USC of course)?? Well, they need Tennessee to lose, so Florida would win the SEC East by virtue of their win over Georgia. It would also help if Florida beat FSU, to further help LSU's SOS and computer rankings. Then Georgia needs to win out. So, you could have a highly ranked Georgia team that does not have to risk a loss in the SEC title game. I like the BCS, if for no other reason, because it gives me something to do when I'm bored.

11-17-2003, 09:00 PM	#18
ScottVib High School Varsity Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: My Computer	Remember they removed margin of victory because that was what put Nebraska in the National Title Game a couple of years ago... without that now TCU's 3 point overtime squeeker looks the same to the computers as the 45 point whipping USC put on them. If USC gets bumped out the National Title Game I wonder if people start clamoring to put margin of victory (with a certain cutoff) back in? USC's great crime was of course playing Arizona, because Arizona stinks USC's strength of schedule went down and Ohio State moved up. That's the same reason why TCU wouldn't have held onto the #6 after playing an 0-11 SMU club.

11-17-2003, 09:24 PM	#19
Scoobz0202 Pro Rookie Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Dayton, Ohio	Yeah. OSU only gained what? .21 points with the victory. Only reason they went ahead was due to the SOS hit that USC took.

11-17-2003, 10:38 PM	#23
hollmt High School Varsity Join Date: Aug 2002	one more thing...isnt TCU doing the same thing that OSU did last season? they have won 6 games by a touchdown or less this year, and even more than that, they have won 5 of those 6 by 3 points! i am in no way bashing TCUs accomplishments, because the bottom line is they are winning, and that is the greatest stat of all...not offensive output, defensive output, who they play. none of that matters. they are undefeated and you should praise that. just that when other teams cough OHIO STATE cough does it, they get bashed as being lucky and dont get the praise when they put up a nice 18 game win streak.

11-17-2003, 11:36 PM	#26
tucker342 Pro Starter Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Iowa City, IA	Of course they should put margin of victory back in the BCS, maybe it shouldn't be a big factor, but it should be there. If OSU gets in to the NC game over USC or LSU, it will be a travesty(sp?). I'm sorry OSU fans but when your team can only beat Penn State by 1 point(I think that's how much they won by), then you don't deserve to play in the NC game, plain and simple! Of course this will all by trivial when Michigan crushes them

11-18-2003, 12:33 AM	#29
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	And it's the NY Times poll that ultimately moved USC down to 3. A poll that nutty should not decide who moves where in the BCS. __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams

11-18-2003, 01:01 AM	#31
hollmt High School Varsity Join Date: Aug 2002	ah..nevermind all that above..I did the reading on the explanation and found that they drop the lowest (worst) of the computer polls. so more math then! Lets say the NYC gave them a 3 (again benefit of the doubt) and that you drop one of the 4s on the computer poll. that is 19 points divided by 6 polls which is still a 3.17 and USC is still .03 behind OSU...as they should be! Last edited by hollmt : 11-18-2003 at 01:07 AM.

11-18-2003, 01:10 AM	#32
hollmt High School Varsity Join Date: Aug 2002	and now to continue talking and responding to myself since it is so late and all, i think the BCS should do what gymnatics do, and drop the lowest (worst) and the highest (best) of the puter polls. then OSU would be even further ahead of USC cause they would lose that 2 ranking that Jeff Sagarin gave them.

11-18-2003, 01:13 AM	#33
mckerney Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Or give more weight to voter polls than computer polls, as the voters obviously seem to have a better understanding than the computers. That said, it won't matter after the weekend.

11-18-2003, 01:20 AM	#34
hollmt High School Varsity Join Date: Aug 2002	actually the voters are more biased than the computers. the computers just weigh numbers and dont "judge" anything but numbers. the more you let humans control anything the more suspect it is. i know it may be a lame example, but just look at boxing, ice skating, gymnastics...anything where judges decide the winner. its biased and based on certain little things. sometimes i think the WWE is more real than some of those other sports cause at least they come right out and tell you it is fake and fixed. Last edited by hollmt : 11-18-2003 at 01:21 AM.

11-18-2003, 01:31 AM	#36
hollmt High School Varsity Join Date: Aug 2002	yeah id rather have people decide things too...cause i can slip them a bill or two to sway their vote (and dont think it doesnt happen in any sport), the human factor is way screwed up and biased. but now this is evolving into a whole new beast/discussion. you can say computers give incomplete results, and i can say people are biased and easily influenced but in the end it doesnt really matter i guess.

11-18-2003, 02:56 AM	#37
Honolulu_Blue Hockey Boy Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Royal Oak, MI	This whole debate ends Saturday. __________________ *Steve Yzerman*: 1,755 points in 1,514 regular season games. 185 points in 196 postseason games. A First-Team All-Star, Conn Smythe Trophy winner, Selke Trophy winner, Masterton Trophy winner, member of the Hockey Hall of Fame, Olympic gold medallist, and a three-time Stanley Cup Champion. Longest serving captain of one team in the history of the NHL (19 seasons).

11-18-2003, 08:13 AM	#40
IMetTrentGreen College Prospect Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Austin, Texas	anyone want to flame me again for saying tcu won't make it in?

11-18-2003, 09:42 AM	#41
KWhit Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Conyers GA	The point here should be that you can make a very good case for OSU or USC (or even LSU, IMO) to be the 2nd best team in the nation. The fact that one of these teams will get the chance at the ultimate prize while the other two will not is a joke. They are so close to being equal in my mind that it isn't fair to reward one and not the others. In other words: Gimme a playoff!

11-18-2003, 10:19 AM	#42
RendeR Coordinator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Buffalo, NY	TCU doesn't deserve to be in the BCS top 6, maybe 7 or 8 because they are undefeated, but based on that schedule, and their final game being against a winless and hapless opponent, they don't deserve that shot. They'll get a bowl game, but don't come after me when they get there and get killed. __________________ http://wotlabs.net/s...8/signature.png http://wotlabs.net/sig_dark/na/banichi18/signature.png

11-18-2003, 10:22 AM	#43
RendeR Coordinator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Buffalo, NY	And along the playoff lines, I like the idea of keeping the BCS system in place. Keep the weighting of the polls and the computers the same since there are two polls and 7 computers the polls already have a large advantage in weight take the top 8 teams at the end of the scoring and have 3 weeks of playoffs. Simple as that. 7 games, 1 champion that everyone might possibly agree on. And TONS of money for all of them, so the money issue won't matter. __________________ http://wotlabs.net/s...8/signature.png http://wotlabs.net/sig_dark/na/banichi18/signature.png

11-18-2003, 12:44 PM	#45
GrantDawg World Champion Mis-speller Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Covington, Ga.	I'll say this. My Bulldogs are a good team, but they are over-rated right now.

11-18-2003, 08:04 PM	#49
Craptacular College Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Mad City, WI	OK, I'm bored again, so let me throw out a few scenarios that would really be fun to watch. All of these hinge on Michigan beating Ohio St, but they don't move up past all of the other 2-loss teams currently ahead of them in the BCS (Texas, Georgia, Tennessee), and USC losing one or both of their two games and falling out of the title picture. It could be very close. Anyway ... Oklahoma beats A&M, but loses the Big 12 title game. Tennessee loses (or Florida beats FSU and moves ahead of them in BCS and within 5 places of Georgia). Georgia wins last two regular season games. Florida beats LSU in SEC title game. Oklahoma remains #1 in the BCS, but Georgia and Texas finish #2-#3 (or #3-#2). If Texas is #2, can they play in the Sugar Bowl? Both BCS at-large teams are not allowed to come from the same conference. I'm guessing the #1 vs. #2 rule overrides this, and #3 Georgia gets left out, but Florida is in. If Georgia is #2, then Texas gets left out, even though the #3 team is supposed to be guaranteed a BCS slot. What if TCU is in the top 6? I think they get left out as well in either of those scenarios. Both at-large spots would be filled by the #1 and #2 team. I think it might also be possible for two SEC teams (out of LSU, Georgia, and maybe Tennessee) to finish #1 and #2, while either Florida or Ole Miss wins the SEC title. This would not only require Michigan to win (possibly in a horrible game that the voters take into account) and USC to lose, but two losses by Oklahoma, and probably a loss by Texas. I still don't think TCU would move ahead of all those 2-loss teams! We thought it was bad for Nebraska to play for the championship without winning their conference. What if BOTH teams were not conference champions?? edit: Sorry, I think I confused myself a little. Last edited by Craptacular : 11-18-2003 at 08:12 PM.

11-18-2003, 08:29 PM	#50
digamma Torchbearer Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: On Lake Harriet	If Texas and Oklahoma are 1 and 2 in the BCS, then they would play for the national championship. If this happens AND Oklahoma loses the Big 12 Championship game, as I understand it, the winner of the Big 12 Championship would get bumped from the BCS--I am not sure if the rule is that only two teams from a conference can go to the BCS or if it is that if two teams from a conference are playing for the national title and they aren't the conference champ, then the conference champ gets bumped. However it is written, the result is the same. The Big 12 North Champ would be going to the Cotton or Holiday Bowl despite having won the Big 12. Confusing for sure.