Interesting comments by Dusty Baker

[Cards4ever]

I saw these comments when I was in Chicago this weekend, it was hot, I went to the game on Friday myself and sweated my ass off, but still, this is ridiculous.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune....7640535.column

The Cubs had two problems in the first inning Saturday: It was hot, and Shawn Estes was white. Then it cooled off a bit, and Estes was still white. Worse, he was still Estes.

It is Dusty Baker's opinion that blacks fare better in hot weather than whites do. How we arrived at this topic is something of a mystery, but the discussion started with the rigors of day games at Wrigley Field and ended with a Baker commentary on skin color and heat.


Is the Cubs' manager right? There is enough evidence to suggest he isn't, but his theory does give Cubs fans another out should their team fall apart this season. To the normal excuses—too many day games, organizational cheapness, the Billy Goat curse, etc.—you can now add the Wilting White Man theory.

"You have to pretend that you're a construction worker out there," Baker said before Saturday's game. "You have no choice. It's easier for me. It's easier for most Latin guys and it's easier for most minority people. Most of us come from heat.

"You don't find too many brothers from New Hampshire and Maine and the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Right? We were brought over here for the heat, right? Isn't that history? Weren't we brought over here because we can take the heat?"

Baker is referring to blacks being captured in Africa and sold into slavery hundreds of years ago. They were brought here for no other reason than they were a convenient source of forced labor.

"[Blacks'] skin color is more conducive to heat than it is for lighter skin people, right?" Baker said. "You don't see brothers running around burnt. Yeah, that's fact. I'm not making this stuff up. Right? You don't see some brothers walking around with white stuff [sun block] on their ears and noses."

If you took the converse of Baker's theory, blacks wouldn't have a chance if baseball were played on dog sleds in snow instead of in spikes on grass. Can we add to any more stereotypes here?

And how does any of this explain Antonio Alfonseca, a Dominican who could give up a ninth-inning homer in Borneo or Stockholm?

According to a study by Dr. Robert S. Helman of New York Medical College, "heatstroke affects all races equally. However, because of differences in social advantages, the annual death rate because of environmental conditions is more than three times higher in blacks than in whites."

Another study by the Borden Institute, which researches medical issues in the military, states: "It has been suggested that as a group, blacks are less heat-tolerant than whites. This is certainly supported by U.S. Army medical reports."

I don't want to make any more out of this than what it is—a man talking out loud without checking his facts first. Baker isn't saying the solution to the Cubs' difficulties is more people of color and fewer people of pastiness. He's saying what a lot of people take on faith, that blacks are better suited for work in warm weather than whites are. He just happens to be wrong.

But thank goodness Baker is black and not white.

In 1987, Dodgers general manager Al Campanis said blacks lacked the "necessities" to be baseball managers or general managers. The next year, CBS personality Jimmy "the Greek" Snyder said blacks were better athletes than whites because they were bred that way.

"This goes all the way back to the Civil War, when a slave owner would breed his big black to his big woman so that he could have a big black kid, see," he said.

The careers of both men were ruined.

Baker doesn't want day games to be an excuse for his team's struggles, and that's a good thing considering the Cubs went decades without a title during a time when every team played day games exclusively. Day games as an explanation doesn't work around here.

"People don't want to hear that as an excuse or an alibi," Baker said. "They don't want to hear that my team is exhausted, so we don't say it. It's just a fact."

The Cardinals' Matt Morris struggled Saturday, giving up four runs in five innings. He has been bothered by a sore shoulder, but my sources tell me that isn't the real problem. The problem is that he has a sore white shoulder.

The Cubs ended up beating the Cardinals 6-5 on Alex Gonzalez's game-winning single in the ninth. So, yeah, a Hispanic guy saved Estes, a white guy, from another heat-related loss.

But Gonzalez's hit came off Esteban Yan, another Dominican. Now I'm really confused.

[JeeberD]

On a hot, sunny day are you hotter wearing dark clothing or an outfit that is a lighter color? Certainly it's hotter wearing the dark outfit. Of course, since I've always been white I can't tell you for sure that it's the same thing with skin color, but it would seem that it would, right?

[Cards4ever]

Are you asking me what I wore? Of course I wore white.

[condors]

this may be a silly point but randy johnson and curt schillling seem to do alright for themselves in arizona where it usually kinda hot

[Ksyrup]

Certain black people have been making the same comments made by Jimmy the Greek and Al Campaneris for years, but I guess it's OK because they are black. I remember when ESPN did a big feature on the number of white starting WRs in the NFL, and Harry Edwards, whose opinions on matters of sports and race someone has apparently deemed necessary for us all to hear, essentially parroted the comments the Greek made about physical differences being the reason why blacks make better receivers than whites.

My simple-minded guess is that anyone who has lived in heat is probably better-suited to deal with heat than someone who has not. A white guy from Tallahassee is probably better-suited to deal with hot, humid weather than a white OR black guy from Saginaw, Michigan. Just a guess. But what do I know, I'm just a white guy.

[JeeberD]

I can't tell you for sure that it's the same thing with skin color, but it would seem that it would, right?

I think that you missed this part of my post...

Ahhh, nevermind...

[clintl]

I think the Chicago heat is getting to Dusty. In 10 years with the Giants, he never said anything like that.

[Ksyrup]

His rotation is, what, 4/5 white? What was it with SF, not much difference, right? He even had Estes there. And Kirk Reuter's so white, he could count as 2 white guys. But it's cool there, so that's the difference, I guess.

[damnMikeBrown]

That's absolutely freakin ridiculous. What an absolute moron. Classic. A man getting paid that much $$ in a cerebral position, who, conclusively proves, without question, that he is complete and total idiot.

[Cards4ever]

Not to defend the man, but, from what I understand, this is also part of the issue of more night games at Wrigley. In another article I read, he was upset because they played in Philly the night before, while the Cards played a home day game, flew into Chicago and were well rested for a 2:20 start.

[cuervo72]

In other news, the Atlanta Falcons are pushing for more night games, as they feel at night and in their black uniforms Mike Vick will actually become invisible.

[QuikSand]

I think the transition phrase "In other news... " when well executed (like cuervo does above) is one of the truly underappreciated gems in all of comedy.

[cuervo72]

[illinifan999]

Well you could just ask Michael Jackson............

[dawgfan]

Wow. I think it's safe to say that Dusty would certainly be villified for making those comments if he were white. That's not to say that he won't be villified for them anyway - this will be an interesting case study in how much people of color can get away with inflammatory, ignorant, racial stereotyping comments.

[Fritz]

I take a pill that gives me most of the natural advantages of being black without any of the socio-economic problems. Unfortunately the pill has some side effects and I occasionaly crap my pants.

[Subby]

Originally posted by Fritz
I take a pill that gives me most of the natural advantages of being black without any of the socio-economic problems. Unfortunately the pill has some side effects and I occasionaly crap my pants.

In other news, Al Sharpton just bought a new velour jumpsuit...

[markprior22]

Schilling-Johnson-Bank One Ballpark has a retractable roof. They don't usually have to pitch in extreme heat.

I am a Cubs fan and the whole heat/day game thing bugs the hell out of me. I have heard people say that players (in general) don't like day baseball. They are creatures of habit and since most games are at night, that is what they become used to. Well, if that is the case...the Cubs should have a huge advantage as they should be used to more day games and the teams coming in should be "knocked out of their routine". I can see the heat catching up with the players if they aren't properly rested but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

Very frustrating

[clintl]

Essentially, what this comes down to is that people often say really stupid things when they're frustrated.

[cuervo72]

Originally posted by clintl
Essentially, what this comes down to is that people often say really stupid things when they're frustrated.

I don't think Lee Elia made such claims...

[KWhit]

Basically black people can be as racist as they want to be and there are no real repercussions.

Imagine if a white manager said, "I like having white pitchers on my roster because white people are smarter." He would be fired THAT SAME DAY. And he would never manage again.

Dusty will probably be talked about and questioned for maybe a week and then it will go away.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally posted by KWhit
Basically black people can be as racist as they want to be and there are no real repercussions.

Imagine if a white manager said, "I like having white pitchers on my roster because white people are smarter." He would be fired THAT SAME DAY. And he would never manage again.

Dusty will probably be talked about and questioned for maybe a week and then it will go away.

Too true. Even if a white manager said something favorable about a particular minority (i.e. - "I like having black guys on my basketball team because they jump better than white guys") he'd get his ass fired and permanantly ostracized.

In other news, the Supreme Court reinforced this sort of reverse-racism a few weeks ago when it endorsed the use of affirmative action.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally posted by KWhit
Imagine if a white manager said, "I like having white pitchers on my roster because white people are smarter." He would be fired THAT SAME DAY. And he would never manage again.

Do you really think "black players are more used to the heat because they're usually from warmer climates" is in any way comparable to "white players are smarter than black players"?

[KWhit]

I just threw out the first stupid stereotypical thing I could think of. If a white manager would have said the EXACT SAME comments that Dusty said he would be vilified.

My point is that a white person can never claim that white people are better than black people at ANYTHING for ANY REASON without being labeled racist and likely losing their job.

I am very sensitive to this issue because I have been called a racist in the past (in a weird, surreal misunderstanding) and I'm one of the more liberal, progressive guys you'll find. So I get angry when I see the double standard that exists as far as "racist" behavior goes.

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by Maple Leafs
Do you really think "black players are more used to the heat because they're usually from warmer climates" is in any way comparable to "white players are smarter than black players"?

No, I don't. But what if Clint Hurdle openly questioned whether he should only use white pitchers during home games in April because they might be able to handle the cold weather better than the team's black pitchers? Would the outcome - outrage from the black community and the loss of his job - be any different?

[KWhit]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
No, I don't. But what if Clint Hurdle openly questioned whether he should only use white pitchers during home games in April because they might be able to handle the cold weather better than the team's black pitchers? Would the outcome - outrage from the black community and the loss of his job - be any different?

That's a much better analogy. I was trying to think of something more along those lines, but my brain isn't working too well today after the holiday.

Exactly the point I was trying to make.

[illinifan999]

Too true, too true. But hear me first time I get pulled over by a minority cop I am SCREAMING that I was being racially profilied. Now where's Jesse Jackson's phone number?

[44Niners]

I love the Jamaican Bobsled team!

[Maple Leafs]

Originally posted by Ksyrup
No, I don't. But what if Clint Hurdle openly questioned whether he should only use white pitchers during home games in April because they might be able to handle the cold weather better than the team's black pitchers? Would the outcome - outrage from the black community and the loss of his job - be any different?

I'd agree that that's a better analogy. However, Baker never said he wouldn't use his white players, or that his strategy would change in any way ... it really came across as just an off-the-cuff comment.

That said, yes, I'm sure if a white manager made the exact same comment there probably would be more of a firestorm. So the question is: does the black manager get off easy, or does the white guy get hammered unnecessarily?

[Ksyrup]

I think the white guy gets hammered unnecessarily. I think what Dusty suggested was stupid, but not necessarily racist and certainly not something that should get him fired. It has been demonstrated that the same attitude would not greet similar comments made by a white guy.

It's like white people, by virtue of being "in charge" of the universe (as some people believe it to be), are supposed to let things slide when comments like that are made about them, but not so if those comments are made about minorities. For instance, take the movie White Men Can't Jump. There was no organized protest of that movie, and the only time it is ever raised is in this exact situation, as an example of the type of stereotyping that minorities would not tolerate, but whites do tolerate. However, if Martin Short made a movie out of his SNL skit about synchronized swimmers, paired up with Damon Wayans, and called it Black Men Can't Swim, there'd be pickets and rallies at every theater complex in America.

[damnMikeBrown]

"This just in ….. Generalisimo Francisco Franco is still dead."

[Swaggs]

This just in...Dusty Baker is a fabulous manager, but a little subpar as a socialogist.

[Blackadar]

"Look at that little monkey go..."

- Howard Cosell



The worst thing is that Howard used that term to describe white players and his own grandchildren.

[JPhillips]

My favorite part is that studies have shown that he's wrong. Why don't we get pissed at him because he doesn't know sh%$ about what he's saying?

BTW- The White House endorsed this kind of junk science when they edited out global warming info!
(with all due respect to Franklinnoble)

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by JPhillips
My favorite part is that studies have shown that he's wrong.

Yeah but...

"My mother was a black-American history teacher in Sacramento," he said. "... A lot of people don't know history, that's what it sounds like to me..."


However, as a counter to his argument, my dad is bigger than his dad and can beat him up.

Funny, I never took Dusty Baker as a momma's boy...

[ctmason]

In fairness to Howard, it was "...and that little monkey got away..."

[SackAttack]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that Baker needs to be fired.

Minorities in all of the major sports have taken issue with the disparities in the number of whites and non-whites in management roles with the several teams, and have clamored for greater equality with whites.

I'm all for giving them that equality. Completely, in fact. Let them have an equal shot at the jobs available, but at the same time, treat them equally when they're afflicted with foot-in-mouth disease. Society doesn't tolerate it when a white man makes comments of any kind regarding blacks; why, then, should they tolerate the same remarks that a white man would be vilified for simply because a black man spoke them instead?

Treat 'em equally. If we're going to fire white managers for those sort of comments, fire black managers for them as well. The statements are just as offensive no matter who's speaking them, after all. By the same token, if Dusty is allowed to slide on this...white managers need to be treated with the same kid gloves the next time one of them says something stupid.

As long as there are different standards of behavor for persons of different races, any "equality" will be mere lip service to the concept.

Just my two bits.

Josh

[Cards4ever]

I don't know if they would be fired Sack, but they sure as hell would be told to apologize by upper management. I wonder how the white players on the Cubs feel about those kind of comments.

[SackAttack]

I tend to think they probably would be. If Jimmy the Greek can lose his job over something like "they're bred to be athletes," then why isn't saying "Oh, slaves came from Africa, so all brothers are able to withstand the heat" worthy of the same attention and punishment?

[Franklinnoble]

I agree. If a white manager had made the same comment, he'd already be fired. Period. The fact that Baker has not been fired, reprimanded, or even taken the opportunity to retract his statements is a prime example of how it's OK to be racist as long as you're not white.

The baseball gods will frown upon this, and the curse of the Cubs will not soon be lifted.

[Fonzie]

Originally posted by Franklinnoble
The baseball gods will frown upon this, and the curse of the Cubs will not soon be lifted.

Which makes all of us Cardinals fans very, very happy.

[SackAttack]

Actually, it occurs to me that the juxtaposition of the baseball gods frowning on that comment and Dusty Baker in, say, Boston, would be about the *only* way he'd wind up getting fired for this.

They'd run him out of town on a rail.

Isn't that kinda sad?

[clintl]

Other than being apparently wrong, what is more racist about what Baker said than if someone said fair-skinned people are more susceptible to melanoma than dark-skinned people (something that is true)?

What Baker said was apparently not scientifically correct, and he should have known better than to say it, but based on his many years as a player, coach, and manager in the Giants' organization, I don't think there's any evidence he's a racist.

It's time to move on. This is not Campanis saying blacks don't have the ability to manage or GM.

[Cards4ever]

Originally posted by Franklinnoble
I agree. If a white manager had made the same comment, he'd already be fired. Period. The fact that Baker has not been fired, reprimanded, or even taken the opportunity to retract his statements is a prime example of how it's OK to be racist as long as you're not white.

The baseball gods will frown upon this, and the curse of the Cubs will not soon be lifted.

Actually, he confirmed his stand.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2003/0707/1577825.html