Possible Penguins relocation

[duff88]

So it looks like more and more obvious that the city of Pittsburgh won't get a new arena anytime soon so the Pittsburgh Penguins, as good a hockey city as Pittsburgh is, are likely going to relocate either this summer or next summer. The possible markets for this relocation are:

Kansas City - The Sprint Center looks like a state-of-art arena waiting for a team, there would also be no competition with the NBA. Questionnable wether Kansas City would support the team.

Houston - Huge city with a very good arena in the Toyota Center; there would still be a lot of competition with the Texans, the Astros, the Rockets, college sports, etc.

Portland - The Rose Garden is an OK arena for an NHL team, is Portland a big enough market to support both the Trailblazers and an NHL team?

Seattle - It doesn't look like they have any chance; no arena (I think the SuperSonics have a clause to not be in competition with an NHL team) and questionnable fan support.

Las Vegas - I hope not... It's a market that every sports league is considering, but there are questions about the gambling problems that may occur and wether there would be any fans. The NHL doesn't need a second team in the desert.

Wisconsin - Either Madison or Milwaukee. They have great support of the U of Wisconsin and have a great history in college hockey; still a big question mark and probably not among the frontrunners.

Hartford - There would certainly be enough support, but there is no suitable arena and it doesn't seem like one is going to be built soon.

Winnipeg - The 15,000 seats arena might be a bit too small for the NHL, but it's a real hockey hotbed with true hardcore fans. I don't think the NHL wants to move Crosby and Malkin to Canada.

Quebec - Don't have an arena, but is probably the best hockey market without an NHL team. The mayor has no interest in building an arena, and combined with the fact that the NHL probably don't want to move Crosby and Malkin to Canada, I think it's farfetched.

Southern Ontario - It was mentionned earlier, I think it's a silly idea.

What do you guys think; even those who don't know much hockey but who live in these areas?

[bbor]

Re:Southern Ontario...prolly the BEST choice out of all these listed.Certainly the most hockey interest out of those places listed from the states.Why not 2 teams in Toronto ala the Clips/Lakers?

[Pumpy Tudors]

Maybe I'm just being overly optimistic, but I think the Penguins will stay in Pittsburgh. It's a shame that Isle of Capri won't be building an arena in Pittsburgh, but I expect the state to work out a deal with the Penguins. I don't know what makes me say that, so I guess it's just a hunch.

Of the places you mentioned, fans in Winnipeg and Hartford are the ones most likely to give the team the same support that it gets in Pittsburgh. I don't find it likely that the team will move to a city that already had a team, though (regardless of the reasons that those other teams moved).

That leaves Houston and Kansas City as the other realistic possibilities. I don't know much about either place, but I don't think Houston can effectively support two pro hockey teams (with the AHL's Aeros already being there). Two pro hockey teams may work in Chicago or Philadelphia, but I don't know about Houston. As for Kansas City, I have no idea, but KC's Arena Football team would suffer with an NHL team moving in, and that's a shame.

(long live the AFL)

[bbor]

I don't think K.C is an option.The NHL would be stupid to revisit an old site that they have used before,Look at Atlanta.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by bbor

I don't think K.C is an option.The NHL would be stupid to revisit an old site that they have used before,Look at Atlanta.

...and I'd be stupid for forgetting that my favorite team originated in Kansas City. Ooooops.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I'd love to see the team go to Canada, but I don't think that would happen.

As for the rest... Not sure. I wouldn't mind seeing Pittsburgh head out West so that Detroit could move into the Eastern Conference. That would make their schedule significantly less taxing travel-wise and when all is said and done they'd likely be back in the same division as Toronto. I'd enjoy that.

That said, I'd like the Pens to stay in Pitsburgh if at all possible.

[bbor]

HB you may get your wish...apparenly the league officials are talking about make 4 divisions instead of the 6 they have now.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by bbor

HB you may get your wish...apparenly the league officials are talking about make 4 divisions instead of the 6 they have now.

The Leafs, Wings, and Blackhawks should be in the same division. It's idiotic that they aren't.

[bbor]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

The Leafs, Wings, and Blackhawks should be in the same division. It's idiotic that they aren't.

Bring back the damn Chuck Norris division and then we'd see some real hockey

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by bbor

Bring back the damn Chuck Norris division and then we'd see some real hockey

That's another thing. Hockey had the coolest division names in any sport, so what the hell were they thinking when they disposed of them? The NHL makes so many stupid decisions, it's ridiculous.

[Galaxy]

I believe an interested owner wants to bring a team back to Hartford. They seem to have an arena proposal in the wings.

What do you think of Quebec City and Baltimore? Would the Southern Ontario team be put in Toronto or Hamilton? Could Southern Ontario support three teams (throw in the Sabres, which do draw a nice base from the border).

[cuervo72]

Hockey is such an afterthought in Baltimore. When I was in college, they preempted NHL playoff games with the PBA...and local HS basketball. It would be a horrible choice, IMO.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by duff88

Seattle - It doesn't look like they have any chance; no arena (I think the SuperSonics have a clause to not be in competition with an NHL team) and questionnable fan support.

In case you haven't heard, the Sonics will be gone soon, so there will not be any competition. And the Key Arena, while not the greatest anymore, can still get the job done for hockey (it already is used for WHL Seattle Thunderbirds). So I wouldn't rule them out, except for what I believe would be an unstable fan base.

And if they don't leave, as I understand it, the current ownership group is looking at the only option being to build a brand new arena in the suburbs -- a multi-purpose building that could also house and NHL franchise.

[Schmidty]

Hockey will never work in Seattle. Fans here only seem to have room in their hearts for the Mariners and recently, the Seahawks. Not only that, but the few hockey fans that are in the area already root for the Canucks.

Moving the Penguins to Seattle would be a disaster.

[Franklinnoble]

Arco Arena in Sacramento will probably be vacant soon...

[stevew]

I would love if they could get a new arena done in Pittsburgh, but I'm not expecting much. Hell, a state of the art arena might even bring an NBA team to the city. The place they play at now sucks, it's a pain to get to via the interstate. It would have been nice to throw something up when they were spreading the bread for the Steelers/Pirates fields.

[Pyser]

put em in canada. dont care where. id vote for toronto, they can support a second team.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by stevew

Hell, a state of the art arena might even bring an NBA team to the city.

Would you be willing to settle for the Hawks?

[General Mike]

Put them in Hartford, call them the Whalers, and get it over with already.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by General Mike

Put them in Hartford, call them the Whalers, and get it over with already.

There is that idea.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

...and I'd be stupid for forgetting that my favorite team originated in Kansas City. Ooooops.

Go Scouts! I mean, go Rockies! I mean..Go Devils!

Some ESPN columnist had a problem with the new arena in Newark saying it's a bad idea, but..I really believe that having an arena that is centrally located is the best idea ever. Who wants to go to the Meadowlands when they have to work the next day? It's too remote, but most folks just aren't smart enough to figure that out.

And Nets will move there soon too. The Brooklyn deal is as bad an idea is any.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Arco Arena in Sacramento will probably be vacant soon...

Meh. There are already too many hockey teams in California. Take the Ducks or the Kings. Your choice.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

That's another thing. Hockey had the coolest division names in any sport, so what the hell were they thinking when they disposed of them? The NHL makes so many stupid decisions, it's ridiculous.

The NBA-ification of the NHL killed a lot of the tradition and personalization of the sport.

The NHL tried to break from it's "niche" status and go big. Failed miserably. They should've realized that there's a big difference between grabbing a ball and going outside and the hockey equivalent.

[bulletsponge]

Hockey in Houston?! LMFAO!

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by bbor

I don't think K.C is an option.The NHL would be stupid to revisit an old site that they have used before,Look at Atlanta.

Dark Cloud hinted at the argument against this line of thinking, but I'll spell it out. The Kansas City Scouts failed and relocated to Denver and became the Colorado Rockies, which also failed and moved to New Jersey. By the line of thought that revisiting an old site is a stupid idea, then putting the Avalanche in Denver was a stupid idea.

Kansas City has a lot going for it. One is that all of the suites are presold, which means there is a big chunk of money already there. Now that the possibility of getting the Penguis looks realistic, they are starting to presell premium club seats before they even have a team for the Sprint Center.

Kansas City has never abused hockey; hockey abused Kansas City. The Scouts were a Mickey Mouse operation, as evidenced by their failure in Denver too. They also had to compete with the NBA in a building in a shitty location. The new Sprint Center is the jewel of a new major entertainment district. Those two differences are huge.

In the early '90s, we had an IHL team that was affiliated with San Jose, and the Sharks had a bunch a great young studs at the time. The team was a winner, and the building was packed -- they led the IHL in attendance for a few years. Then San Jose jerked their affiliation to join with a team closer to California and when we ended up with a team of never-was has beens and never-would losers, the fan interest soured. Then the IHL imploded and we lost the team through no fault of our own.

If hockey gets to Kansas City first, it will be a winner. I don't think we can support both a NBA and NHL team, but whichever look puts a team here first will be successful. I'd LOVE to land the Penguins because it's a team on the rise.

Kansas City also has the connections. Boots Del Biaggio owns the NHL rights to put a team in the Sprint Center, and he had an agreement to buy the team before they tried to go the Isle of Capri route. He also owned a minor league team with Mario Lemieux, and he and Luc Robitaille are both involved with Anschutz Entertainment who manages the Sprint Center.

[cuervo72]

I actually thought DC was arguing that the NHL shouldn't make the same mistake it has with Atlanta...

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by bulletsponge

Hockey in Houston?! LMFAO!

It's working for the Aeros.

[bhlloy]

I would love to see an NHL team move back into Hartford, Winnipeg or Quebec. I hate that Bettman is so set against putting a team back in Canada where hockey is the national sport and truly loved, but hey I guess it is all about the $$$.

For the reasons above, KC seems like the only logical choice. Maybe Portland has an outside chance with an already established AHL team and arena.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Arco Arena in Sacramento will probably be vacant soon...

If that doesn't work out, Stockton has a new arena.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Would you be willing to settle for the Hawks?

I could probably deal with them. I grew up on the TBS Hawks, Nique, et al.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by clintl

If that doesn't work out, Stockton has a new arena.

Good point... if the city of Stockton paid $1 million just to secure a Neil Diamond concert, imagine what they'd shell out for an NHL franchise.

[bbor]

The sooner Bettman realizes that the NHL is a gate driven league and not a tv driven league the better off the NHL will be.The only reason for him not to put this team in Canada is because of tv....which makes no sense as the NHL TV deal is shit.

I don't care where the team ends up as long as it is properly supported,i am not against an American city getting the team...but having said that i truly do beleive the team would do better in Winnipeg or Quebec.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I vote for Winnipeg.

[cthomer5000]

dispersal draft

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

That's another thing. Hockey had the coolest division names in any sport, so what the hell were they thinking when they disposed of them? The NHL makes so many stupid decisions, it's ridiculous.

Bettman trying to turn hockey into basketball. He's responsible for a lot of the stupid decisions and the owners shouldn't have bought into it.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

I actually thought DC was arguing that the NHL shouldn't make the same mistake it has with Atlanta...

Well..I don't know what I think of Kansas City. Seems like a bad idea to me. I mean, I get why they want a team for that arena and an intra-state rivalry with the Blues would be great.

But, I think there are other markets -- Hartford and Winnipeg -- are two that stick out in my mind as much better candidates.

Of course, KC has what neither of them does...a brand spankin' new arena without a tenant.

I think there are enough teams in crappy markets, that there should be enough teams to go around, if one wanted to get into that.

But I pray Houston doesn't get this team. That's a terrible idea on a lot of levels. But, this is Bettman's league. So prepare for a disaster, if there was one.

[sooner333]

I hope they go to Kansas City...a hockey team there might make Oklahoma City a better NBA relocation site (except for the Sonics, because they will go to OKC if they leave Seattle...but I bet the suburbs make their arena for the Bennett group). Plus, I really don't want hockey here over basketball.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

It's working for the Aeros.

Woo! Go Aeros!

SI

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by General Mike

Put them in Hartford, call them the Whalers, and get it over with already.

You sir are the King of Kings.

[Ragone]

So why is it that hartford seems to be a good idea over kc/houston, when hartford lost their previous team to a move less then 10 years ago.

I'm not trying to be mean, it just doesn't make sense to me

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by Ragone

So why is it that hartford seems to be a good idea over kc/houston, when hartford lost their previous team to a move less then 10 years ago.

I'm not trying to be mean, it just doesn't make sense to me

I think the league has realized it's mistake moving into the South too quickly and with too many teams. Now that isn't really an argument for Hartford over Houston but I think that there are a lot of warm weather franchises who are wondering if it's ever going to 'work'.

The NHL could have been a great league, if they had been bright enough to break the union 15 years ago instead of waiting until now. Had they just cancelled the season back during the last lockout they could have skipped the extra expansions and kept the league in cities like Hartford and Winnipeg.

They tried to roll with the NBA, instead of staying with 21 teams they felt the need to move to 30 (or however many there are now, I'm not paying any attention). They felt that doing stupid things like renaming the divisions would make them more popular with the common fan when it really just made them less popular with their hardcore fan.

The NHL probably is never coming back to Hartford. Bettman doesn't want a team here, the Bruins and Rangers don't want a team here. There is some support for a new arena, but it's a long way from being built and no one is going to move without that building being delivered. Hartford is a better NHL market then probably 7-8 cities that have teams, there is money here and many more kids here grow up playing hockey in New England then anywhere but Canada and Minnesota.

You would think it would translate but at the end of the day Connecticut just doesn't have great sports fans. The 'average' fan will only support a winner and there just aren't enough corporate headquarters here to support the amount of money that needs to be spent to support pro franchises.

[ScottVib]

Originally Posted by Ragone

So why is it that hartford seems to be a good idea over kc/houston, when hartford lost their previous team to a move less then 10 years ago.

Losing the team in Hartford was never due to a lack of fan support. It was strictly related to the revenues coming in from the stadium (the Civic Center was actually a part of a mall in Hartford and is terribly outdated) and Karmanos getting a sweethart deal from the officials in Raliegh. It took several seasons for the Hurricanes attendence to reach the levels they had in Hartford.

A team in Hartford even with the attendence numbers the lame duck Whalers had their final season was approximately 14,000 about 87% of capacity at the old Mall. That mark would give the Whalers a higher total attendence then original 6 members Chicago and Boston. They'd also be outdrawing Washington, St. Louis, the Islanders, New Jersey, and Phoenix. Percentage-wise they'd be approximately even with the Kings at around 20th place. This would add Nashville, Atlanta, and Florida to the list of teams that Hartford would outdraw. Plus getting the Penguins would seem to bring things full circle. The franchise in Hartford hit its low point when GM Eddie Johnston traded Ron Francis and Ulf Samuelsson (two of the most popular Whalers) to Pittsburgh, then Johnston left to go coach the Penguins to the Stanley Cup the next year. The state does in fact own the Whaler name and all trademarks, so a relocated team could be called the Whalers and don the old jerseys. There is local ownership ready to build an arena should they acquire a team.

The problems with Hartford are: Neither New York team nor Boston wants the Whalers in the Hartford market. The arena is less viable now then it was in the 90's and construction on a new arena has not started. Furthermore the Civic Center is presently managed by Madison Square Garden, so its highly unlikely that MSG would offer support to a rival team.

Its a pipedream, but I wish the Whalers would come back, I try to watch hockey now, but I just can't get into it the way I did when I had my favorite team to root for.

[Joe Canadian]

As I see it there are only two ways this turns out, maybe three. What I think will happen, though it doesn't look too likely right now, is that the city\county\state will cave and Mario will have his new arena in Pittsburgh. This is what I want to happen, and this is what the league wants. Pittsburgh can support an NHL team, and I'd rather not see a team move from a hockey market only to return via another franchise later on, see Minnesota.

However if the team moves there's really only two places it's going to end up, Kansas City... and the very long shot, Las Vegas. If Mario does decide to sell the team again, there are confirmed (by the leagues) buyers ready to move the teams to those two cities. KC has the arena the NHL really wants to put a franchise in, and Vegas has the political will to build one. The team is not going to Canada... but I'll get to that later.

If we do see a team move, like I said, I'd rather it not be the Penguins. There are so many other franchises that desperately need new cities... both Florida teams, Atlanta, Phoenix, etc. Those places will never be hockey markets, and they should have never had teams put there in the first place. Which leads me to...

Mr. Bettman. It is clear that he still holds the same mandate, and goal they he did when he first became commissioner. He wants to grow the game in the US, but he wants to do that by putting franchises in big markets, even if they shouldn't have hockey teams in them. He wants teams in Houston, Vegas, Kansas City, and Portland. If someone wants to move a team anywhere else, he's going to fight them tooth and nail.

I don't really get why he is continuing to hold this POV, or why the league governors are backing him on this. It has failed, and failed horribly.

Why not concentrate on making the league healthier, and then move teams to those sexy markets. IMO, it would benefit the league so much more, to have teams in cities where people actually want to go to the arena, and to have owners that are genuinely interested in the team.

As for Canada... it's not going to happen any time soon. The southern Ontario region is THE best place to put a team, if the league wants healthy franchises. It is not silly like someone previously said, it's smart. But it won't happen... and when it does, it certainly won't be the Penguins. The league does not want Crosby in Canada... they want him to spread the game like Gretzky did, and he can't do that up here.

The NHL needs to get back into Hartford, Winnipeg, and Quebec City... and they need at least one more team in southern Ontario... IF having strong franchises is their goal. It seems they are more interested in having large markets, because they think that will give them a bigger national television market. That's not going to happen on OLN, but still that doesn't seem to matter to Bettman and the NHL.

While up beating up on Bettman... if they increase the size of the nets, I will never watch the NHL again, it will have become a joke league. They should instead be making youth nets smaller, so kids 5-6 years old aren't playing with NHL size nets... maybe then they'd learn to score more.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

As I see it there are only two ways this turns out, maybe three. What I think will happen, though it doesn't look too likely right now, is that the city\county\state will cave and Mario will have his new arena in Pittsburgh. This is what I want to happen, and this is what the league wants. Pittsburgh can support an NHL team, and I'd rather not see a team move from a hockey market only to return via another franchise later on, see Minnesota.

...

While up beating up on Bettman... if they increase the size of the nets, I will never watch the NHL again, it will have become a joke league. They should instead be making youth nets smaller, so kids 5-6 years old aren't playing with NHL size nets... maybe then they'd learn to score more.

Amen... I pretty much agree 100% with this entire post.

[Young Drachma]

My understanding is Tampa Bay is actually one of the better markets of the Sun Belt teams in hockey, along with Dallas. They even managed to get awarded the Frozen Four in 2012 or something.

But Atlanta, Florida, Nashville and Phoenix need to go pronto. Did Nashville build that arena for hockey, though? At least with the other two, someone else is using the arena or in the case of the Panthers, it doesn't matter one way or another. No one would notice if they left.

[ISiddiqui]

Though, interestingly, Atlanta has better attendance per home game than Pittsburgh this season. As for Tampa Bay, they aren't just one of the better Sun Belt teams. They are THIRD in attendance per home game in the entire NHL! Trailing only Montreal & Detroit. Though they do have a bigger stadium than Toronto, Calgary, etc.

It is intersting that Boston, Washington and NJ are so low. They are playing pretty decent hockey. Though I guess with Boston and Washington, fan favs have been dealt, and NJ has never drawl well, not even when they were winning those Stanley Cups.

[Young Drachma]

New Jersey doesn't draw well because the Meadowlands don't have a NJ Transit rail link. But no one talks about that. It's too hard to get there during the week if you live in the Central part of the state.

The new arena will truly test whether the market will draw or not.

[ISiddiqui]

I used to live in Jersey... the reason they don't draw well is because there are already too many Rangers and Flyers fans in the state. There isn't that big of a pool of left over fans to draw from. I don't think a Newark stadium will help all that much (maybe a little bit).

[kcchief19]

Kansas City held their presss conference today to outline the general terms of their offer to the Penguins for moving to KC. In a nutshell, it's a sweetheart of a deal -- no rent and they get a share of all building revenue, not just hockey revenue.

Mario and his group were in town yesterday to tour the building and meet with AEG.

[KevinNU7]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

It is intersting that Boston, Washington and NJ are so low. They are playing pretty decent hockey. Though I guess with Boston and Washington, fan favs have been dealt, and NJ has never drawl well, not even when they were winning those Stanley Cups.

Boston has to deal with bad ownership and management that has made it abundently clear that they are all about making huge profits. They are one of the most expensive tickets in the leage and due to all the corporate sales that occur they do not care about playing a half empty arena or bringing in some real talent because I they are doing well without it. It will be like this for the foreseeable future.