The world is going fricken nuts

[Tarkus]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,78139,00.html

How can a judge even let this go on? The legal system needs a major revamping.

Tarkus

[Ben E Lou]

Actually that IS a cultural thing. If I had been in their shoes, I would have also assumed that the flight attendant was making fun of me and being racist.

[Tarkus]

Originally posted by SkyDog
Actually that IS a cultural thing. If I had been in their shoes, I would have also assumed that the flight attendant was making fun of me and being racist.

Well, maybe we're from a different generation but I must have made that saying a thousand times as kid:

Eenie, meenie, minie, moe, catch a tiger by the toe, if he hollers let him go, my mother said to choose this one, out goes y o u.

Believe me there was no racial connotation whatsoever to that. We would use it to choose sides for teams or whatever. That lawsuit is just total BS.

Tarkus

[Barkeep49]

Jeez I had never heard that version before. It was always catch a tiger by its toe. Makes me want to think about whether I should continue to use that/inform kids who I hear using it about its origins.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Barkeep49
Jeez I had never heard that version before. It was always catch a tiger by its toe. Makes me want to think about whether I should continue to use that/inform kids who I hear using it about its origins.

...and I hadn't heard the "catch a tiger by its toe" version until I was an adult. "Catch a nigger by his toe" was used in the movie Pulp Fiction if I recall. When I was a little kid, as one of the few black kids at a newly-integrated school, "catch a nigger by his toe" was the standard of how playground decisions were made. It was not until a teacher overheard one of the white kids saying it (I was in either 4th or 5th grade...went to that school since first grade...) that it was "banned." Just offering some perspective.

[Ben E Lou]

Dola---

I'm DEFINITELY not one to "cry wolf" regarding racism. I'll give the flight attendant the benefit of the doubt that she had no idea the connotation of what she said. All I'm saying is that I would have been deeply offended had it happened to me.

[Ksyrup]

While I have heard the racist version (from my grandfather), we always used the "tiger" version growing up, and there was never any idea that the rhyme itself, "n" word or not, was racially motivated. In fact, I thought that by using "tiger", that meant it wasn't racist. Too bad the flight attendant didn't recite more of the rhyme. I think they would have had a tough time arguing racism at that point.

[Craptacular]

I don't believe I've ever heard the history of that phrase either. In any case, if someone says something you think is offensive or racist to you, I have no problem with a vehement complaint. Suing for damages (including punitive damages) is an absolute joke. Like it or not, the fact that they did sue for damages invites a certain level of criticism from those of us who hate frivolous lawsuits.

[Tarkus]

SkyDog, yes I've heard that version before but the problem I have is with people suing over it. I really doubt flight attendants would intentionally make a racist remark over the intercom. If I was on that plane I wouldn't have thought anything of it. I think people are just taking this stuff way too far.

Tarkus

[albionmoonlight]

A case going to trial and a plaintiff proving her case are two different things. Right now, all the judge has said is that there is enough of a claim here to begin finding more facts. That's all.

I could accuse Tom Cruise of punching me in the face and sue him, and the case would get to a fact finding stage. It says nothing about the underlying merits of the case. All it asks is--assuming that everything the Plaintiff alleges is true--has Plaintiff made out a cause of action. In this case we do not know what the plaintiffs alleged, so I can't comment on the merits of the decision to continue fact finding.

A case getting to this stage involving non famous people is not newsworthy. IMHO, Fox putting this on their site is much more supermarket tabloid like than anything close to journalism.

[Ben E Lou]

Oh...this country is definitely too sue-happy. My point is that this one shouldn't be as "shocking" as some of the others we've discussed. Probably because I've been fortunate in most of my multi-cultural experiences, I would have been able to let that one go after a few moments of being steamed. I have idea of these two ladies' background, but if they've been stung more than once by racism and haven't experienced positive multi-cultural environments, then I can understand their continued anger. They are right around the same age as my sister, who was in the first class that had black students in high school. The level of direct racial slurs she experienced, combined with the utter powerlessness she felt to respond have definitely had an impact on her. Again, I don't know their backgrounds, but based on their ages, I wouldn't be surprised if they had a similiar experience to my sister's.

[Fritz]

Well, did she finish it with "my momma said to pick the best one and you are not it?" At least then one of them would know who is best.


----
Up north I never heard the N version. In the south I did. How are you supposed to know?

----
Example: In college, my wife's sorority was winding up an event in the student union. Noticing they had a lot of left over snacks and soft drinks they decided to offer them to the black sorority across the hall. My wife and her friends were taken aback (and more than little hurtt) by the black organization's sharp reaction to being offered moon pies.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Fritz
How are you supposed to know?

My very first statement in this thread, "that is a cultural thing..." applies here. One of the inherent difficulties of a multi-cultural society is that there WILL be times that folks are offended unintentionally. There's really no way to understand EVERY little nuance of another culture. (Isn't there a culture where the American "ok" symbol is considered akin to giving someone the finger, for example?)

[Daimyo]

Growing up in the midwest in the 80's we used to use the "catch a tiger" version all the time during recess... I never even heard the rascist version until I was much older. If I had been on the plane and heard that there is no way I would have thought of the rascist version...

I guess its all cultural differences in what you experienced growing up. Still, assuming the flight attendant was refering to the non-rascist version, its pretty annoying for her to be punished for the cruel words/actions of others who may have had an impact on the two women's past.

[sabotai]

I think the media is partly to blame for the sue-happiness of everyone. They ALWAYS report lawsuits like this, but the RARELY report the outcome of such cases. Most are thrown out by a judge at some stage and the media only reports that ones that win.

The pupblic knew that most of these cases ended up being thrown out, I would think there'd be less of them.

And I learned it as tiger, not nigger. I heard the nigger version for the first time in Pulp Fiction (or someo other movie) and thought they were spinning it off of tiger...

[sabotai]

dola -

And so what if it does have a racist history? There are probably a LOT of common sayings used today that have racist/sexists/descriminatory histories. If people sued over them everytime they heard one, the courts would be flooded with "racist history" lawsuits.

[Buddy Grant]

I heard the racist version first and have always associated that stupid ryhme with the slave ship scenes in roots I watched as a kid (yeah it pisses me off). Maybe this is a regional or even an age issue as I doubt the racist version of this rhyme could survive long into the 1970's (hope not anyway). I'm not into the sueing BS either but I think it's a big deal that a company would allow something so assinine to be said in it's flights, even if the stewardesses did not understand what they were saying. An apology should have been enough.

[kcchief19]

I'm sure it's certainly a regional thing; the kids I grew up with said it that "bad" way (luckily, my mother considered the n-word worse than just about any other word -- when I was a kid, I would gotten in more trouble for saying that than saying the f-word ) But the city I grew up in was rather notorious for rascism, so that's nothing to be proud of, Rusty.

sabotai, I love you, but the next time I see the media blame anyone for something I'm going to punch them. If the media told us to set ourselves on fire and jump in a pool of oil, I'm sure a few would -- not because the media told them, but because they are idiots. Idiots will do anything. They don't need to be told. Idiots have been around forever. But with 180 cable channels and an infinite number of Web sites, they just get better publicity.

[stkelly52]

Originally posted by Buddy Grant
but I think it's a big deal that a company would allow something so assinine to be said in it's flights, even if the stewardesses did not understand what they were saying. An apology should have been enough.

SouthWest has a history of encouraging thier flight attendents to be humorous. THey will often add jokes into the safety briefings as well as other times.

Also, today is the first time that I have ever heard of the racist version of the rhyme. It would not surprise me if the flight attendent (who was 22) also never heard it before.

[bosshogg23]

I grew up in the midwest and today was the first time I heard the racist version(I even saw part of Pulp Fiction last night).

This would probably have upset me if I was in the situation. However I think a better reaction would have been to contact their customer relations department or some such equivalent.

WAY too many questionable lawsuits.

[sabotai]

"sabotai, I love you, but the next time I see the media blame anyone for something I'm going to punch them. If the media told us to set ourselves on fire and jump in a pool of oil, I'm sure a few would -- not because the media told them, but because they are idiots. Idiots will do anything. They don't need to be told. Idiots have been around forever. But with 180 cable channels and an infinite number of Web sites, they just get better publicity."

I wub you too!

But seriously, I do know the media gets blamed for a lot of crap that they shouldn't. It'd just be nice to hear when lawsuits got thrown out. Then maybe so many people would stop doing it. It's not just a bunch of idiots anymore, though it probably started out that way. Now it's almost an epidemic.

Also, I'm sueing FOX and all affilitate companies. I just heard on Joe Millionaire "Eenie Meenie Minee Moe, someone else has got to go." That offends me now. So now I'm sueing.

[Jets80]

The next time an airline attendent asks me if I want some peanuts and does so in a way that is offensive to me..I will sue.
100 MILLION BABY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And they better hope i don't spill some hot coffee in my lap or I will own the airline.

Freaking court syetem!!! dumb asses.

[mrskippy]

Uh, Southwest flight attendants sing and make rhymes all the time. I'll never forget a flight to Vegas. Two of the flight attendants were drop dead gorgeous and had beaming personalities. I was in the front seat near the galley the whole time.

With a little prodding they did a song. These girls were single, so they did a little jingle that included the words "marry one of us and fly for free."

It was funny ... but come to think of it I should have considered their offer. They were talking about partying at the Hard Rock Hotel (Las Vegas baby) that night.

After one of them gave me an entire sack of peanuts, I should've taken the hint. Both of them were flirty with me the whole time. Course I was flirty back. I should have taken the hint and crashed the party.

Anyway ... it's the Southwest way. I've had flight attendants do Elvis and other impersonations. Pretty much in my experience on Southwest ... I've seen it all. But its the two gorgeous flight attendants that I'll never, ever forget.

When I got home I was so close to sending a letter of commendation to Southwest so it would be appended to their records. Because these girls were awesome.

[SackAttack]

I'm 22, same age as the flight attendant, and this is the first time I ever heard of it being "nigger by the toe." I've seen Pulp Fiction, but I don't recall hearing it there, so it probably didn't make much of an impression on me.

Either way, growing up it was always "tiger by the toe," and I grew up with some black kids who used that phrase as well, so I have to think that this was a case of the flight attendant simply being unaware of something that's fairly obscure to the younger generations.

[cincyreds]

so stupid, so stinkin stupid!!

[cincyreds]

Dola!!

That like me saying that this thread was targeted and intended for me and I don't like it....I have been discriminated against by this thread!!

C'mon!!! This is what is wrong with our country today, Sue Happy is everywhere, sue America, it doesn't matter as long those involved can a few million bucks!!!

It is an outrage that something like continues to go on!!

(ArrggggghhhhhY&*^**&%*%&%*)

[cincyreds]

I was so angry I had a ton of typos in my thread!! Shut!!

[JeeberD]

Originally posted by mrskippy

After one of them gave me an entire sack of peanuts, I should've taken the hint. Both of them were flirty with me the whole time. Course I was flirty back. I should have taken the hint and crashed the party.

Hmm, you must have been funny and cocky to get a whole sack of peanuts...

You know, growing up I used enie menie all the time, but always the tiger version. I never heard the other version until I was much older. I even grew up in the south, but I guess not what you would consider the deep south.

I think the women are over-reacting. True, they may have had bad experiences growing up with that phrase, I don't deny that. However, I think that sabotai said it best when he said that there are lots of common phrases in use today that probably have objectionable origins that the majority of people don't know about.

One of the women said that she felt uncomfortable because people were giggling after the flight attendants announcement. Um, yeah, because they just said a cute/funny/cheesy take on a common phrase to get people to take their seats. Just because people were chuckling doesn't mean that they were laughing at her. Sounds to me like the woman is insecure...

[Runtheball]

I'm sure that the flight attendent was not deliberately deriding these women with a racial slur in front of all the other folks on the airplane. Like many of the other posters here, she wasnt even aware of the racial connotations of the rhyme.

These ladies are simply trying to use their race to get a couple million bucks. OK, so they were offended. I think an easier and probably more satisfying way for these women to address the issue would be to speak to the flight attendent and inform her of the racial implications of the rhyme, and tell her how it made them feel. I have a feeling that the attendent would have appologized profusely for her unknowing insult. Perhaps it would have settled the issue to the their satisfaction, knowing that the attendent meant no offense, apologized, and would not use the rhyme ever again. But I'm guessing that getting a few million bucks would be alot MORE satisfying. This is despicable behavior!

[cuervo72]

This is the first time I recall hearing of that version, and I'm almost 30. We always used "tiger". I'm from the North, and have never seen Pulp Fiction.

[Bee]

No offense, but it sounds like some of you have led very sheltered lifes.

{insert appropriate smiley thing}

[cuervo72]

What, because I don't watch a lot of movies, didn't grow up around many black people, and my parents didn't throw around many racial epiteths (besides "dago bastard", but my dad's half-Italian)? :-)

[albionmoonlight]

Since the legal system is getting such a bashing in this thread, I want to reiterate what I said before about the stage in which this matter appears to be. This situation is not--"I'm offended, I get $10,000,000." If it were that easy to get the money, don't you think that we would all do it?

All that has happened right now is that a judge has said that the parties need to do some more formal fact presentation in the matter.

To make a crude, but somewhat on point, analogy. This situation would be like FoxNews releasing the Alpha Version of CM5 and everyone playing it and having it crash and then complaining on this board--"Well I'll just release buggy software and get paid, too! I can't believe that the software industry lets this go on!" Fox is presenting this early stage of the trial as if it were newsworthy. It is not. If, after a trial, these women get the money, then people may have a bit more about which to complain. Until then, nothing of note has really happened.

IMHO--FoxNews saw an opportunity to post something about race that would get people taking and linking to their site. They did it.

[stkelly52]

the problem though is that this is a frivolus lawsuit and it is a waist of tax payer dollars to go through the fact finding stage. It is also costing SW Airlines quite a bit to pay thier lawyers, all for something that should be a non-issue.

[TLK]

Originally posted by SackAttack
I'm 22, same age as the flight attendant, and this is the first time I ever heard of it being "nigger by the toe." I've seen Pulp Fiction, but I don't recall hearing it there, so it probably didn't make much of an impression on me.

Either way, growing up it was always "tiger by the toe," and I grew up with some black kids who used that phrase as well, so I have to think that this was a case of the flight attendant simply being unaware of something that's fairly obscure to the younger generations.

Same here, maybe it was a regional thing or maybe I was just around the right people.

TLK

[Airhog]

What a bunch of idiots. I could see them suing if they actually used racist remarks, but this is just totally ridiculous

[cuervo72]

Thought I'd dig up this old thread, the issue is the focus of John Stossel's "Give Me A Break" tonight on 20/20.

From his e-mail letter:

April 10, 2003




Hello. Now that there is happy news from Bagdad, I'm back on the air.

Friday I have a column on Eenie Meenie Minie Mo.

That is, two black women Southwest Airline passengers say they deserve "punitive damages" because they suffered "severe emotional distress" after a flight attendant said, "Eenie meenie minie mo, pick a seat, we gotta go."

That's all she said. She was trying to get people to sit down, so the flight could take off.

It is true that years ago, "Eenie meenie was racist" - some people said "catch a nigger by the toe." But who even knows that today?

The 22-year-old flight attendant said she didn't know about it, she'd just heard other staff use the rhyme to get passengers to sit. Older people we interviewed didn't know about the racial connotation. Not one person we asked at Dallas airport - white or black - said they'd be offended by it.

Nevertheless, the women say they were injured because they were "unable to escape the airplane, which was poisoned with racism." And amazingly, a federal judge in Kansas City, Kan., said the lawsuit should go forward. The trial is scheduled for Tuesday.

America's discrimination laws have come to mean that the most sensitive people may get to decide what everyone can say.

Give me a break!

[Abe Sargent]

Until just now, I had never (in my 26 years of life) ever heard of or knew that to have a racist connotation.

About 80% of my staff is black. Around 75% of my 1000 residents are black. I have never heard anything about this, and it's not like I live in another area.

I just went out to one of my four front desks where three black ladies work and I asked them about this. One had heard of its racist connotation, the other two hadn't.

So, EVEN AMONGEST THE BLACK COMMUNITY not everybody knows.

Ergo, I have to echo what one of my employees just said "They are just out to get money." An employee opf mine who is also a Vice President of the local NAACP Chapter thinks they are just out to get money. So, there you go.

Besides, if we were to sue over every little connotation, imagine how many women could get money because of those round metal discs on city streets....

-Anxiety

[JHandley]

Here's another take on it. This happened 2 years ago. Does anyone think it's possible that the plaintiffs know they have no chance to get past the fact find stage, but also know their case would get picked up by one of the many news outlets looking for headlines? It is raising a debate on how sensitive is too sensitive. It is raising a debate and awareness of how long the hurt of racism lasts with someone. SkyDog would have been offended and he wasn't there.



I'm 29, I've never heard the racist version before and I thought the Pulp Fiction one was a spin off of the 'Tiger' version, until today. I wonder if it's possible that was the purpose of the suit.

[JeeberD]

I'm sure that's what it was. They don't care about money at all...

[mckerney]

Originally posted by SkyDog
...and I hadn't heard the "catch a tiger by its toe" version until I was an adult. "Catch a nigger by his toe" was used in the movie Pulp Fiction if I recall. When I was a little kid, as one of the few black kids at a newly-integrated school, "catch a nigger by his toe" was the standard of how playground decisions were made. It was not until a teacher overheard one of the white kids saying it (I was in either 4th or 5th grade...went to that school since first grade...) that it was "banned." Just offering some perspective.

I'd never heard of it that way, and being I've seen Pulp Fiction several times I don't think it was in that movie. There is the 'dead nigger storage' part in Pulp, but I don't recall hearing the ryhme. Perhaps it was in another movie and you got it confused with that, or maybe I just missed it and don't remember hearing it, though I wouldn't doubt it was used in some movie if it is as well known a phrase in some places as people say.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by mckerney
I'd never heard of it that way, and being I've seen Pulp Fiction several times I don't think it was in that movie. There is the 'dead nigger storage' part in Pulp, but I don't recall hearing the ryhme. Perhaps it was in another movie and you got it confused with that, or maybe I just missed it and don't remember hearing it, though I wouldn't doubt it was used in some movie if it is as well known a phrase in some places as people say.

It is Pulp Fiction. Zed is trying to decide whether he will sodomize Butch or Marcellus first.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Anxiety
So, EVEN AMONGEST THE BLACK COMMUNITY not everybody knows.

Sure, that's true. That wasn't my point. We have NO idea the background of these ladies. As I said, it wouldn't have occurred to me that the lady hadn't heard the racist version (again...my context is that as a child I heard nothing BUT that version....I wouldn't have sued over it though.) All I'm saying that it is POSSIBLE that they had no other context whatsoever to hear "eenie meenie miney moe" other than a racist one. IF they had no other context, doesn't it seem utterly logical that they would have been at least somewhat taken aback?

Sure, the odds are these ladies are just out to get money. However, before just jumping all over them, I'd want to know "how they heard it."

[mckerney]

Ah, my bad. Must not have picked up on it, though that isn't a part of the movie I try to remember in vivid detail

[Abe Sargent]

Originally posted by SkyDog
Sure, that's true. That wasn't my point. We have NO idea the background of these ladies. As I said, it wouldn't have occurred to me that the lady hadn't heard the racist version (again...my context is that as a child I heard nothing BUT that version....I wouldn't have sued over it though.) All I'm saying that it is POSSIBLE that they had no other context whatsoever to hear "eenie meenie miney moe" other than a racist one. IF they had no other context, doesn't it seem utterly logical that they would have been at least somewhat taken aback?

Sure, the odds are these ladies are just out to get money. However, before just jumping all over them, I'd want to know "how they heard it."

I would agree that if they had never been exposed to it as non-racial, then they at least would have claim to take umbrudge with the attendant.

My point was that I have only been exposed to it as non-racial, and I don't live in the whitest world ever either, instead living near and employing a majority of blacks. So I find it hard to believe that they have never heard it associated with non-racial things.

It's not like this is the word "niggardly" which was misunderstood. I could understand someone not knowing that "niggardly" is a Scandanavian word that was brought into the English language way before the African slave trade began (before even Africa was circumnavigated) and has no connotation with those events. But its such a rarely used word these days that exposure might be small, if at all.

But "Eenie Meenie" is all over our culture and I personally know many who have used it before. So I would be flummoxed by someone who purports that they have always heard it only in a racial connotation.

-Anxiety

[CAsterling]

Got to admit, I had never heard of the 'Tiger' version until today - i live an learn

[ahbrady]

I had always heard and used the "tiger" version until a couple of years ago. I was teaching a class of junior high kids, and when choosing which of 3 kids to work the problem on the board I started saying, "Einee, minee, meinie, moe." And one kid gasped in horror. I stopped and asked what was wrong. She just couldn't believe I was about to say something so racist. I told her I had no clue what she was talking about, so she came up and whispered what word she thought I was going to say. I became very embarassed and apologized profusely to the entire class. I have never felt so terrible about something that I had no idea could be taken as racist. So, from that day on I've never used the phrase, but I can definitely understand how the flight attendants felt. Luckily, I don't think any of the other students had ever heard about the racist version, so I never got in trouble with parents or administrators.

[JeeberD]

Heh, Anxiety said circumnavigated...

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally posted by SkyDog
...and I hadn't heard the "catch a tiger by its toe" version until I was an adult. "Catch a nigger by his toe" was used in the movie Pulp Fiction if I recall. .

I think it was actually "Natural Born Killers." Though mistake is easy enough to make. Both Tarantino-written flicks.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Honolulu_Blue
I think it was actually "Natural Born Killers." Though mistake is easy enough to make. Both Tarantino-written flicks.

No. I've established this earlier. When Zed is trying to determine whether he'll sodomize Marcellus or Butch first, he uses the rhyme then to decide.