Ebonics rears its head again.

[JW]

It is a bad idea, and I thought it had gone away, but it appears to be back, the notion that black English, aka Ebonics, is a separate langaguge, and that black children should therefore be taught in Ebonics.

I've taught high school English for 12 years, mostly to poor black students, and I think the notion of Ebonics as an educational tool does a great disservice to my students. One of the critical keys to success in the 21st Century is command of the language, which in America means written and spoken command of standard American English. To even hint otherwise to children does them a terrrible injustice.

Note that the school board in question is apparently not quite implementing an Ebonics program, but it appears to be supporting the notion of Ebonics as an educational tool for black children, a dangerous notion imho.

Interestingly, they suggest supplemental reading material in Ebonics. I have considerable experience in teaching material written in black dialect (Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zora Neale Hurston is a good example.). And in my experience, black (and other) students have just as much trouble deciphering black dialect in print as they do, for example, Shakespeare, as well as material written in American dialects, such as Huck Finn.

Finally, let me say that I can agree that Ebonics is a dialect of English. There are numerous dialects of American English, including the rural white Southern dialect my parents spoke (i.e., "Ah aint' fixin' tuh go tuh th store raht now, ya'll. Ah maht go in a bit."). Ebonics is just one of those dialects, with its own regional variations. I don't think we want to teach rural Southern white kids in dialect either, for example.

Link and excerpt:

http://www.sbsun.com/Stories/0,1413,...969790,00.html

Ebonics suggested for district

By Irma Lemus Staff Writer

SAN BERNARDINO Incorporating Ebonics into a new school policy that targets black students, the lowest-achieving group in the San Bernardino City Unified School District, may provide students a more well-rounded curriculum, said a local sociologist.

The goal of the district's policy is to improve black students' academic performance by keeping them interested in school. Compared with other racial groups in the district, black students go to college the least and have the most dropouts and suspensions.

Blacks make up the second largest racial group in the district, trailing Latinos.

A pilot of the policy, known as the Students Accumulating New Knowledge Optimizing Future Accomplishment Initiative, has been implemented at two city schools.

Mary Texeira, a sociology professor at Cal State San Bernardino, commended the San Bernardino Board of Education for approving the policy in June.

Texeira suggested that including Ebonics in the program would be beneficial for students. Ebonics, a dialect of American English that is spoken by many blacks throughout the country, was recognized as a separate language in 1996 by the Oakland school board.

"Ebonics is a different language, it's not slang as many believe,' Texeira said. "For many of these students Ebonics is their language, and it should be considered a foreign language. These students should be taught like other students who speak a foreign language.'

Texeira said research has shown that students learn better when they fully comprehend the language they are being taught in....

[rkmsuf]

jus' hang loose bloood. she gonna catch up on da rebound outta medside.

what it is big mama my mama didnt raise no money i dug her rap!

kut me some slak jack.

[CraigSca]

Sigh. I assume the goal of a school system is to provide students with an education that will enable them to become valuable members of society. I don't think that teaching children in ebonics will do that, though I admit I know very little about the "language".

As a tangent - who the heck made up this: "Students Accumulating New Knowledge Optimizing Future Accomplishment Initiative". It sounds like one of those useless titles created solely for the purpose of a catchy acronym, but "SANKOFAI" isn't cutting it for me

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

jus' hang loose bloood. she gonna catch up on da rebound outta medside.

what it is big mama my mama didnt raise no money i dug her rap!

kut me some slak jack.

Surely, your use of jive in the above quote was accidental.

[NoMyths]

A solid post, JW, and (for once? ) we find common ground. In learning to become a teacher I too was schooled in BEV as a dialect of American English...but certainly not a language in its own right. Your example of written BEV causing problems for speakers of the dialect is a fine one.

It seems to me that Mr. Texeira is trying to carve out his own scholarly niche, but I certainly hope he meets with little success.

[rkmsuf]

Shit man, that honky mus' be messin' my old lady... got to be runnin' cold upside down his head.

[Pumpy Tudors]

"SANKOFAI" is Ebonics for "Think of life."

[Hurst2112]

"Excuse me, stewardess...I speak jive"

Barbara Billingsly

[Hurst2112]

Texeira said research has shown that students learn better when they fully comprehend the language they are being taught in....

So yeah, don't teach your kids to say WITH instead of WIF. ASK instead of AXE.

[AZSpeechCoach]

I teach mostly poor Mexican students. Do I need to learn Spanglish?

[LionsFan10]

Originally Posted by AZSpeechCoach

I teach mostly poor Mexican students. Do I need to learn Spanglish?

Yes!

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by JW

"Ebonics is a different language, it's not slang as many believe,' Texeira said. "For many of these students Ebonics is their language, and it should be considered a foreign language. These students should be taught like other students who speak a foreign language.

Well, what would be the first thing a group of Non-English speaking students were taught? To speak proper English.

[sportsfan13]

great post. I'm sorry but when these children grow up and get jobs, I do not want someone at the bank despositing my checks and 'ghetto cheese' (aka cash). It sounds rediculous.

[Klinglerware]

I agree with JW: Ebonics is a legitimate dialect of American English. I don't see what is so controversial about that. I don't think it should be taught in school though.

A slight tangent: teachers often do bring their dialects with them. Does this imply that the best teachers of proper Network TV American English (as some call our "national" dialect) will come from the suburban Northeast and West Coast?

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by AZSpeechCoach

I teach mostly poor Mexican students. Do I need to learn Spanglish?

Where I live it's a good idea actually. Not really so you can teach that way, but so you can communicate a little better I would think.

Then again what do I know, I have been here 9 years and don't know crap of spanish really.

[AZSpeechCoach]

In AZ, a law was passed by the voters which bars instruction in the native language of the child, except in rare circumstances. All English Language Learners are supposed to be in a one year immersion program and then thrown to the wolves. In the case of Ebonics, if it is classified as another language, we couldn't use it to teach the kids.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by AZSpeechCoach

In AZ, a law was passed by the voters which bars instruction in the native language of the child, except in rare circumstances.

So what's the language of instruction for the kids whose native language is American English?

[I. J. Reilly]

One more case of both sides of the education debate talking past each other. The left overemphasizes diversity and self-esteem, while the right undervalues the arts and humanities. While I agree with the left that poor children need to be taught that their upbringing is not a life sentence to poverty, it will be awfully hard for them to maintain their self-esteem when they’re unemployed.
If you enter the work force armed only with Ebonics and your teachers assurance that you are special and unique, then your upbringing will indeed have become a sentence of poverty.

[rkmsuf]

What it is holmes? We ain't from around here.

No shit.

Could you please tell me how to get back on the expressway?

Man, fuck yo mama!

Thank you very much. .

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by sportsfan13

great post. I'm sorry but when these children grow up and get jobs, I do not want someone at the bank despositing my checks and 'ghetto cheese' (aka cash). It sounds rediculous.

This made me laugh. Especially the "rediculous" part.

[rkmsuf]

ghetto cheese? I'd burst out laughing if someone ever said that in my presence.

[Raiders Army]

When are they going to start teaching Redneckian?

[rkmsuf]

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

There, you graduate.

[Raiders Army]

Thanks. Instead of a diploma, can I get a Conferate Flag?

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

This made me laugh. Especially the "rediculous" part.

Me too.

[rkmsuf]

http://www.joel.net/EBONICS/translator.asp


It iz uh bad idea, an' I thought it had gone away, but it appears ta be back, da notion dat negroid English, aka Ebonics, iz uh separate langaguge, an' dat negroid chil'ns should therefore be taught in Ebonics.

I've taught high skoo English fo' 12 years, mostly ta poor negroid students, an' I th'o't da notion o' Ebonics as an educational tool do uh great disservice ta muh ma fuckin students. One o' da critical keys ta success in da 21st Century iz command o' da language, which in America means written an' spoken command o' standard American English. To even hint otherwise ta chil'ns do dem uh terrrible injustice.

Note dat da skoo board in queshun iz apparently not quite implementing an Ebonics program, but it appears ta be supporting da notion o' Ebonics as an educational tool fo' negroid chil'ns, uh dangerous notion imho.

Interestingly, dey suggest supplemental reading material in Ebonics. I gots considerable experience in teaching material written in negroid dialect (Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zora Neale Hurston iz uh pimp-tight example.). And in muh ma fuckin experience, negroid (and other) students gots just as much static deciphering negroid dialect in print as dey do, fo' example, Shakespeare, as well as material written in American dialects, such as Huck Finn.

Finally, let me say dat I can agree dat Ebonics iz uh dialect o' English. There iz numerous dialects o' American English, including da rural whitey Southern dialect muh ma fuckin parents spoke (i.e., "Ah aint' fixin' tuh jet tuh th swapmeet raht now, ya'll. Ah maht jet in uh bit."). Ebonics iz just one o' those dialects, wiff its own regional variations. I don' th'o't we's wants ta teach rural Southern whitey kids in dialect either, fo' example. w0rd!

[PilotMan]

This seems like a perfect way to promte racism, as well as, to continue to divide and segregate, as opposed to blending, integration and moving toward a common understanding.

[AZSpeechCoach]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

So what's the language of instruction for the kids whose native language is American English?

Spanglish

[heybrad]

Dirty Dee, you're a baddy daddy lamatai tebby chai!

[rkmsuf]

whatup bradizzle

[heybrad]

wada tay!

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by I. J. Reilly

One more case of both sides of the education debate talking past each other. The left overemphasizes diversity and self-esteem, while the right undervalues the arts and humanities. While I agree with the left that poor children need to be taught that their upbringing is not a life sentence to poverty, it will be awfully hard for them to maintain their self-esteem when they’re unemployed.
If you enter the work force armed only with Ebonics and your teachers assurance that you are special and unique, then your upbringing will indeed have become a sentence of poverty.

Great post. Where are the Wigs to give you a marble?

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

Great post. Where are the Wigs to give you a marble?

Conducting experiments?

http://www.stolaf.edu/depts/physics/...on/website.htm

[sachmo71]

SANKOFAI has a nice ring to it. SANKOFAI yoself!

[RendeR]

I have to agree with the majority, teaching with ebonics or teaching it as a language in and of itself is a terrible idea. Does nothing but promote segregation by language and breed racism within the communities.


People aren't black/white/hispanic/oriental/european/etc/etc anymore, we're americans and we should take pride in being americans and unify the country by teaching English (doesn't that sound odd) as the single national language, and others as foreign language requirements in schools.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by AZSpeechCoach

Spanglish

Heh, heh...

[JW]

Ebonics is just one thing -- and one of the smaller ones -- muddling modern education. Here is another. This story is from Britain, but there are smiliar discussions in education ranks in America. The general notion is that competition and singling out kids who don't meet the standard are bad. Link and story:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/britain_f...BhBHNlYwM5NjQ-

LONDON (Reuters) - The word "fail" should be banned from use in British classrooms and replaced with the phrase "deferred success" to avoid demoralizing pupils, a group of teachers has proposed.

Members of the Professional Association of Teachers (PAT) argue that telling pupils they have failed can put them off learning for life.

A spokesman for the group said it wanted to avoid labeling children. "We recognize that children do not necessarily achieve success first time," he said.

"But I recognize that we can't just strike a word from the dictionary," he said.

The PAT said it would debate the proposal at a conference next week.

The NEA will probably be looking at this closely. And it would help me in those uncomfortable parent conferences: "No, Ms. Jones, your Johnny isn't failing; he is just deferring his success."

[Klinglerware]

I think in a lot of ways, these issues of "Ebonics" and "social promotion" etc., are red herrings masking real funding inequities.

Here in the suburban northeast, there is no softening of education--students are trained to be hypercompetitive, if anything. I think a lot of it is a function of money--more money goes to classroom instruction here, and academic success follows accordingly.

Studies do appear to demonstrate that academic performance is correlated with spending on classroom instruction (notice that I specifically said classroom instruction, and not general educational spending). Any "muddling" of modern education will be mitigated if education spending is increased to adequate levels and spent appropriately.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

I agree with JW: Ebonics is a legitimate dialect of American English.

I guess AOL-speak could be considered a legitimate dialect of English then?

IT IS A BAD IEDA AND I THOUGHT IT HAD GONE AWAY BUT IT APEARS 2 B BAK DA NOTION TAHT BLAK ENGLISH AKA 3BONICS IS A S3PARAET LANGAGUGE AND TAHT BLAK CHILDR3N SHUD THEYRE B TAUGHT IN 3BONICS

IV311!!111 OMG WTF LOL TAUGHT HIGH SKOOL 3NGLISH FOR 12 YEARS MOSTLY 2 POR BLAK STUDANTS AND I THINK TEH NOTION OF EBONICS AS AN EDUCATIONAL 2L DOES A GREAT DISERVIEC 2 MAH STUD3NTS111! OMG LOL ONE OF TEH CRITICAL KAYS 2 SUCES IN DA 21ST C3NTURY IS COMAND OF TEH LANGUAEG WHICH IN MERICA MAANS WRIT3N AND SPOK3N COMAND OF STANDARD MERICAN ANGLISH11!! WTF LOL 2 AVEN HINT OTHERWIES 2 CHILDRAN DOES THAM A T3RRIBLE INJUSTIEC

NOT3!11111 OMG WTF TAHT DA SKOOL BOARD IN QUESTION IS APAERNTLY NOT QUIET IMPLAMENTNG AN EBONICS PROGRM BUT IT APEARS 2 B SUPORTNG DA NOTION OF 3BONICS AS AN 3DUCATIONAL 2L FOR BLAK CHILDREN A DANG3ROUS NOTION IMHO

INTARESTNGLY!111 THAY SUG3ST SUPL3MANTAL READNG M8RIAL IN EBONICS1!1!1! WTF LOL I HAEV CONSIEDRABLE EXPEREINCA IN T3ACHNG M8RIAL WRIT3N IN BLAK DIAELCT THERE 3Y3S WARE WATCHNG GOD BY ZORA N3AEL HURS2N IS A GOD AXMPL3)!1!! AND IN MAH AXPEREINCE BLAK (AND OTHAR) STUDENTS HAEV JUST AS MUCH TROUBL3 DACIPHERNG BLAK DIAELCT IN PRINT AS THEY DO FOR 3XMPLE SHAEKSPEAER AS WAL AS M8RIAL WRIT3N IN M3RICAN DIAELCTS SUCH AS HUK FIN!11111! WTF LOL

FINALY L3T M3 SAY TAHT I CAN AGRE TAHT 3BONICS IS A DIAELCT OF ENGLISH1111111! LOL THEYRE R NUMEROUS DIAELCTS OF M3RICAN 3NGLISH INCLUDNG DA RURAL WHIET SOUTHARN DIAELCT MAH PAERNTS SPOK3 (IE.!!111 LOL AH ANET FIXIN TUH GO TUH TH S2RE RAHT NOW YAL!11!!!1 WTF LOL AH MAHT GO IN A BIT)11!!!!!! OMG WTF LOL ABONICS IS JUST ON3 OF THOSA DIAELCTS WIT ITS OWN RAGIONAL VARIATIONS11!! WTF I DONT THINK WE WANT 2 T3ACH RURAL SOUTHERN WHIET KIDS IN DIAELCT EITHAR FOR 3XMPLA
!1!!!

[JW]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

I think in a lot of ways, these issues of "Ebonics" and "social promotion" etc., are red herrings masking real funding inequities.

Here in the suburban northeast, there is no softening of education--students are trained to be hypercompetitive, if anything. I think a lot of it is a function of money--more money goes to classroom instruction here, and academic success follows accordingly.

Studies do appear to demonstrate that academic performance is correlated with spending on classroom instruction (notice that I specifically said classroom instruction, and not general educational spending). Any "muddling" of modern education will be mitigated if education spending is increased to adequate levels and spent appropriately.

There is a lot of truth in that.

There is another aspect, too. Some studies show that a child's knowledge base when he or she enters school can be statistically correlated to future academic success all the way through school. These are averages of course, but, for example, a child who enters kindergarten with a low vocabulary is far more likely to do poorly academically or ultimately drop out than a child who enters school with a high vocabulary. Vocabulary has been shown to be a pretty good indicator of average future academic success.

And of course children get most of their initial vocabulary from home. It seems the first four years of life are critical to later academic success, and there is nothing school systems can do except try to overcome those early deficiencies.

[waltwal]

i think this would be the most telling point. if i was a member of the kkk and hated blacks i would be in favor of teaching ebonics in school because it would be the surest way i could devise to make sure that blacks don't succeed in this country.

what is truly amazing to me is the ways in which the representatives of people at the bottom step of the economic ladder devise plans to ensure that they stay there.

here is a plan that would work. take away voting rights from blacks. then since they can't vote no one would care about buying their vote with giveaway programs that keep them at the bottom.

here is my plan. instead of ebonics i would make it mandatory in the 1st grade that any student of any color that is not at grade level spend an extra hour or two at school every day until they get up to grade level. that's right the 1st grade. i don't want young people to establish in their minds that they are losers. i want to take away the right to fail and force kids to learn. would this work in every case- of course not but it would be an attempt to give people a chance to succeed instead of failing almost before they even enter the race.

one last point. every time we see a program on tv that focuses on a school in the ghetto for black children that succeeds we see what works. almost always these schools revolve around discipline. have you ever seen one of these schools that successfully educate young black children adopt an ebonics program in their curriculum?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by AZSpeechCoach

Spanglish

That is beautifully played, so much so that I'll just skip the rest of the thread entirely, because the highlight has already occurred.

That's so damned good, it ought to have counted at least twice in your post count.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by JW

There is a lot of truth in that.

There is another aspect, too. Some studies show that a child's knowledge base when he or she enters school can be statistically correlated to future academic success all the way through school. These are averages of course, but, for example, a child who enters kindergarten with a low vocabulary is far more likely to do poorly academically or ultimately drop out than a child who enters school with a high vocabulary. Vocabulary has been shown to be a pretty good indicator of average future academic success.

And of course children get most of their initial vocabulary from home. It seems the first four years of life are critical to later academic success, and there is nothing school systems can do except try to overcome those early deficiencies.

Very true and again, money is at the heart of it. Educated people make more money and in turn they have more resources at their disposal to educate their children who will then be advantaged in the job market, and the cycle goes on and on.

Not sure what can be done, but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't spend more on educating lower-income children than we are doing now. We denigrate these kids and the quality of their education, but we don't seem very willing to put our money where our mouths are on this issue...

[AZSpeechCoach]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

I guess AOL-speak could be considered a legitimate dialect of English then?

IT IS A BAD IEDA AND I THOUGHT IT HAD GONE AWAY BUT IT APEARS 2 B BAK DA NOTION TAHT BLAK ENGLISH AKA 3BONICS IS A S3PARAET LANGAGUGE AND TAHT BLAK CHILDR3N SHUD THEYRE B TAUGHT IN 3BONICS

Sadly enough, my freshmen write very much like this.

[markprior22]

Ebonics is nothing more than laziness. People who speak this way are usually just too lazy to take the time to speak properly. Also I think sometimes they refuse to use good English because it is "uncool" to their peers.

[markprior22]

Originally Posted by waltwal

i think this would be the most telling point. if i was a member of the kkk and hated blacks i would be in favor of teaching ebonics in school because it would be the surest way i could devise to make sure that blacks don't succeed in this country.

what is truly amazing to me is the ways in which the representatives of people at the bottom step of the economic ladder devise plans to ensure that they stay there.

here is a plan that would work. take away voting rights from blacks. then since they can't vote no one would care about buying their vote with giveaway programs that keep them at the bottom.

here is my plan. instead of ebonics i would make it mandatory in the 1st grade that any student of any color that is not at grade level spend an extra hour or two at school every day until they get up to grade level. that's right the 1st grade. i don't want young people to establish in their minds that they are losers. i want to take away the right to fail and force kids to learn. would this work in every case- of course not but it would be an attempt to give people a chance to succeed instead of failing almost before they even enter the race.

one last point. every time we see a program on tv that focuses on a school in the ghetto for black children that succeeds we see what works. almost always these schools revolve around discipline. have you ever seen one of these schools that successfully educate young black children adopt an ebonics program in their curriculum?

Excellent points. Charles Barkley was talking about how the "low rider" pants wearing fad came into style through the prison system. He talked about how sad it is that many blacks unknowingly reinforce negative influences on their children. He stated that most people want future generations to be better off than they are. Unfortunately, parents that support ebonics and other "ghetto" behavior are not doing their children any favors as far as future success goes. I've had black friends who said they fail either way. If they allow themselves to be "held back" by their black peers, they have a slim chance of succeeding in life. If they speak properly, get a good education and job, they are treated as "sell outs" by their old friends and don't fit in.

[Psmith]

Originally Posted by markprior22

Ebonics is nothing more than laziness. People who speak this way are usually just too lazy to take the time to speak properly. Also I think sometimes they refuse to use good English because it is "uncool" to their peers.

I seriously doubt it. Speech is imitative. If children hear ebonics at home, that's how they're going to speak; noboby is born knowing standard English. While I think teaching ebonics (or teaching in ebonics) sets kids up for failure, I also believe that labelling them "lazy" for speaking in the only way they know how is equally a recipe for failure. Some smart kids, I'm sure, pick up standard English quite easily from school and can switch between standard and Ebonics. I doubt most kids possess such a good feel for linguistics. I think the answer to Ebonics is to have some classes where students can discuss in Ebonics what they are taught (with the teacher speaking standard English but not criticizing them for speaking Ebonics), but supplemented with intensive courses on standard English. It's contradictory, but it's better than the alternatives: dooming kids to live only in the tiny subset of American society where they'll be understood, or muzzling kids for speaking Ebonics and thus teaching them that whites and educated blacks don't want to hear what they say.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by markprior22

Ebonics is nothing more than laziness. People who speak this way are usually just too lazy to take the time to speak properly. Also I think sometimes they refuse to use good English because it is "uncool" to their peers.

Perhaps a refresher course in college linguistics is in order. Linguists classify African American Vernacular English (AAVE) as a dialect of English--the speech of its users follows a predictable and systematic pattern of usage (actually pretty similar to other Southeastern US dialects). This is a pretty conventional and rather uncontroversial classification among researchers in the field of linguistics.

But what is up for debate are the educational and social policy implications that AAVE brings up. We can't debate that AAVE exists, but we can debate whether the use of AAVE is useful or detrimental in the learning of the Network Standard American English dialect. I would note that "American English" is probably a more precise term to define what most Americans speak--undoubtedly many people who speak standard British English find the Network American dialect abhorrent in much the same way as AAVE is seen by those who use Network Standard American English...

[JW]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Perhaps a refresher course in college linguistics is in order. Linguists classify African American Vernacular English (AAVE) as a dialect of English--the speech of its users follows a predictable and systematic pattern of usage (actually pretty similar to other Southeastern US dialects). This is a pretty conventional and rather uncontroversial classification among researchers in the field of linguistics.

But what is up for debate are the educational and social policy implications that AAVE brings up. We can't debate that AAVE exists, but we can debate whether the use of AAVE is useful or detrimental in the learning of the Network Standard American English dialect. I would note that "American English" is probably a more precise term to define what most Americans speak--undoubtedly many people who speak standard British English find the Network American dialect abhorrent in much the same way as AAVE is seen by those who use Network Standard American English...

I agree about the status Ebonics or AAVE as a legitimate dialect of American English. One problem, however, is that there are those who would grant Ebonics the status of a separate language, which, if ever taken seriously, would cause any number of problems. And we have now seen at least two incidences in recent years in which school districts in California have toyed with the idea of imposing an Ebonics regimen for the classroom.

[sportsfan13]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

This made me laugh. Especially the "rediculous" part.

My bad. I would like to buy another vowel...