NFL: Belichick has been taping since 2000

[Noop]

"There was confirmation that there has been taping since 2000, when Coach Belichick took over," Specter said. Specter said Goodell gave him that information during the 1-hour, 40-minute meeting, which was requested by Specter so the commissioner could explain his reasons for destroying the Spygate tapes and notes.

"There were a great many questions answered by Commissioner Goodell," Specter, the senior Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, told reporters after the meeting. "I found a lot of questions unanswerable because of the tapes and notes had been destroyed."
Goodell said Belichick told him he believed the taping was legal; Goodell said he did not concur.
"He said that's always been his interpretation since he's been the head coach," the commissioner said. "We are going to agree to disagree on the facts."
Specter, from Pennsylvania, wants to talk to other league officials about what exactly was taped and which games may have been compromised.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slu...v=ap&type=lgns
Well now thats interesting

[NoMyths]

A tremendously disappointing thing to learn.

[Subby]

Maybe the end of civilization as we know it.

[flounder]

Specter, from Pennsylvania, wants to talk to other league officials about what exactly was taped and which games may have been compromised.

"We have a right to have honest football games," he said.

I must have missed that one in the Bill of Rights.

[Lorena]

SirFozzie in 5....4.....3.....2.....

[FrogMan]

Originally Posted by Dodgerchick

SirFozzie in 5....4.....3.....2.....

that's kind of unfair to the guy. Foz has posted quite a few unflattering reports regarding the spygate thing...

In fact, that news is from yesterday and I expected to see it here way before now.

And yes, as a Pats fan, I'm disappointed...

FM

[jeff061]

Jeff: Still don't care, also bored.

[ColtCrazy]

I am disappointed to hear this, but Goodell could have avoided a lot of this mess by being up front about the tapes from the beginning. Little leaks will keep happening until finally we hear everything we probably should have heard in September.
Regardless of what you think, cheating is cheating and it's a shame he got away with it for so long.

[Raiders Army]

I wonder if he asked about the Sunday Ticket or Madden while he was at it? Those are bigger issues to me.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I wonder if he asked about the Sunday Ticket or Madden while he was at it? Those are bigger issues to me.

You're going to try to claim some "right" to watch a game?
Or to play a video game in a particular configuration?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Dodgerchick

SirFozzie in 5....4.....3.....2.....

What kind of responses do you guys want to see from Patriots fans?

I had nothing to do with this - I didn't place the cameras, etc. I just grew up near there so I'm a fan.

I'm not going to call it "disappointing", because everyone knows the deal with Bellichick at this point. Am I supposed to not be a fan anymore over this? How many of you root for college programs that have had scandals?

I still don't have a great understand of the impact of this kind of stuff in a game where that is covered and recorded with such detail that you can hear the QBs audibles, but I have an open mind.

But should I be morally hurt over this or whatever? Or should I want my team to cheat like crazy to win because this is just a game?? (This is not a cynical question). I grew up with fondly told stories of Red Auerbach "cheating", where really the local translation would be "outsmarted"? Is this different, or have we matured and gotten more moral as a society?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by molson

Is this different, or have we matured and gotten more moral as a society?

Is this a serious question?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Is this a serious question?

I think so, at least in terms of sports.

[Desnudo]

Trying hard to care

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by molson

I think so, at least in terms of sports.

I think its clear that today's society enjoys getting pissed off (or at least pretending to be pissed off) and offended by things, regardless of whether or not it has any impact on their day to day lives.

We (as a society) love seeing those on top fall. This is a way of tearing the Pats down.

This doesn't change anything. The games are played, they're not going to change the results of the games. Other teams have gotten away with far worse.

The only thing that bothers me out of this entire thing is Goodell was less than forthcoming about the incident. Those that were screaming cover-up are in some ways vindicated. This looks a lot worse for the commissioner than it does for Pats, IMO.

[Greyroofoo]

you don't think the tapings had any results on the game?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

you don't think the tapings had any results on the game?

I have no idea.

There was a Sunday Night Game where I could hear Tom Brady's audibles crystal clear. Every game is televised, and beyond that, there's a "game film", that shows a wider view of the game so the coaches can see what's going on the secondary, etc. The fact that it's illegal to have one of those cameras pointed at the opposing coaches is odd to me (could they have an assistant coach just watch and record with a notebook?), but rules are rules and they deserved to be punished.

Why do coaches cover their mouths when they're calling plays if they don't think anyone's watching them?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

I have no idea.

There was a Sunday Night Game where I could hear Tom Brady's audibles crystal clear. Every game is televised, and beyond that, there's a "game film", that shows a wider view of the game so the coaches can see what's going on the secondary, etc. The fact that it's illegal to have one of those cameras pointed at the opposing coaches is odd to me (could they have an assistant coach just watch and record with a notebook?), but rules are rules and they deserved to be punished.

I agree that I think that the effect on the outcome of the game was likely negligable. But still...not something I wanted to hear.

[bhlloy]

The real question is, does anybody in their right mind think the Pats were the only team doing this? If Mangini doesn't break the "unwritten rule", do we think that most of the teams in the league wouldn't still be doing it?

If somebody can prove (or at least show some good evidence) that the Pats were the only team doing it, then yeah it probably had a big impact and I would want the book thrown at them.

I don't like the Pats, but they have already been tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion. Like somebody mentioned above, America takes particular please in tearing this team down because a) they have been really good for a really long time and b) some (most?) of Boston's loudest fans are obnoxious assholes.

[Fidatelo]

This whole "spygate" thing is dumb. Who cares.

<--- not a Pats fan.

[Crim]

Mebbe I'm just dense, but I still don't see this as all that huge a deal.

I'm a Broncos fan, no particular love for the NEPs, but I am still amazed at the success they've had over the past few years. And I'm with several others who just can't believe that other (many? most? all?) teams have prolly been doing it as well.

[stevew]

He's just trying to rile up the Steelers fanbase, must be somewhat afraid of his re-election prospects in 2010. Normally the extent of what he cares about in PA ends once he gets outside the philly city limits.

[vtbub]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

The real question is, does anybody in their right mind think the Pats were the only team doing this? If Mangini doesn't break the "unwritten rule", do we think that most of the teams in the league wouldn't still be doing it?

If somebody can prove (or at least show some good evidence) that the Pats were the only team doing it, then yeah it probably had a big impact and I would want the book thrown at them.

I don't like the Pats, but they have already been tried and found guilty in the court of public opinion. Like somebody mentioned above, America takes particular please in tearing this team down because a) they have been really good for a really long time and b) some (most?) of Boston's loudest fans are obnoxious assholes.

I'm going to agree with most of this. With the difference between a 6-10 team and a 10-6 team being about four points and no guaranteed contracts and 60-hour game plans to assemble, I can't see any team not using any advantage that they can get nor can I see any player use any advantage they can get.

I'd be dumbfounded if this was just a Patriot thing. I'd be dumbfounded as well if the NFL's steroid/HGH problem is not as big as baseball's as well.

If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by vtbub

If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying.

I got another one... Its only cheating if you get caught.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by vtbub

I'm going to agree with most of this. With the difference between a 6-10 team and a 10-6 team being about four points and no guaranteed contracts and 60-hour game plans to assemble, I can't see any team not using any advantage that they can get nor can I see any player use any advantage they can get.

I'd be dumbfounded if this was just a Patriot thing. I'd be dumbfounded as well if the NFL's steroid/HGH problem is not as big as baseball's as well.

If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying.

I agree

[RedKingGold]

I'm sure taping of team's signals has been done by many teams over a great many years.

I'm sure many, if not all teams have done similar tapings as the Patriots.

I'm sure there's even worse stuff going on that we don't or will ever know.

I think the Patriots got caught b/c Mangini whined to league officials.

I don't particularly care if the Patriot's did tape other team's practices. I'm with Ron Jaworski on this.

[NoMyths]

The whole "if you're not cheating, you're not trying" thing has never made any sense to me. It defeats the whole idea of sportsmanship, which is, at the end of the day, why so many of us are disappointed.

And why so many of us have to watch our backs around cheaters like some of you.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

The whole "if you're not cheating, you're not trying" thing has never made any sense to me. It defeats the whole idea of sportsmanship, which is, at the end of the day, why so many of us are disappointed.

And why so many of us have to watch our backs around cheaters like some of you.

The point is...this particular incident is considered "cheating" because it is specifically against the rules. There's plenty of things on the same level as this in all sports that are considered "gamesmanship."

[Radii]

Originally Posted by molson

What kind of responses do you guys want to see from Patriots fans?

basically the single only type of response that I could see being flat out wrong and unconscionable is this:

"I'm not going to call it "disappointing", because everyone knows the deal with Bellichick at this point."


go read the college basketball thread, or the Kelvin Sampson to IU thread. Indiana fans are fanatically passionate about their team, they're having a superb year and its now being utterly rocked by scandal. People are shitting on Sampson and IU left and right. I have yet to see an Indiana fan say "well I'm not disappointed because we knew what we were getting" or "The rest of the NCAA cheats too so I don't care" or "fuck you all, do you want me to stop being an Indiana fan?" ... instead you see obviously pained people trying to enjoy a successful season, hoping their cheating coach is properly punished(and fired since he's kinda a serial cheater at this point) and hoping their storied program rises above it without too big a blemish.

I know that there's a huge history here of hating on the Pats, but man that kind of statement really makes it hard to do anything but pile on. Also, read FrogMan and gstelmack and even Fozzie's insane ramblings(!!) to see how Pats fans are "supposed" to respond :P <3 you guys.

[molson]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

The whole "if you're not cheating, you're not trying" thing has never made any sense to me. It defeats the whole idea of sportsmanship, which is, at the end of the day, why so many of us are disappointed.

That's the whole question I had though, "sportsmanship" has always been a big deal in little league and pop warner, when you're utilizing sports to try to help kids learn about good values or whatever, but in a man's league, who cares? When has sportsmanship mattered in the NFL, MLB, or NBA until very recently? It's just a game. Are Patriots fans supposed to care?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Radii

basically the single only type of response that I could see being flat out wrong and unconscionable is this:

"I'm not going to call it "disappointing", because everyone knows the deal with Bellichick at this point."

Get over yourself. All I said was was that it's not disappointing because it's not surprising. I work as a prosecutor, when I see a certain defendant with a new file because he's beat his wife again, it's not disappointing, because I know what he's all about. If that's "unconscionable", you're a jealous troll and I'm just FINALLY going to be done with these discussions because people can't read anything I say without piling on me again with this kind of shit.

I try to have a regular discussion and I still get baited by trolls. Let's call it a late new year's resolution to not get involved anymore.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Atocep

The only thing that bothers me out of this entire thing is Goodell was less than forthcoming about the incident. Those that were screaming cover-up are in some ways vindicated. This looks a lot worse for the commissioner than it does for Pats, IMO.

Despite my last post, I agree completely with this. As strict as Goodell has been in all other cases, his handling of this incident really stands out. The punishment to the pats was huge, but in all cases with individual players a wealth of information was made public to explain and justify the NFL's position. In this case we have things occurring at a coaching level, and at a level that a franchise's first round draft pick is taken away, yet we're left with the perception that evidence was destroyed, leads weren't followed, and information is being swept under the rug and ignored. Doesn't sit well with me.

And while I'm just going curmudgeon all over everything, lets make sure we frown in Arlen Specter's general direction as well. Trying to stir up controversy in the week before the super bowl, and basically using your position of power to try to decide if you need to be pissed about your beloved Eagles losing the super bowl to the Patriots years ago... holy shit bad form dude! Very bad form.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by molson

Get over yourself. All I said was was that it's not disappointing because it's not surprising. I work as a prosecutor, when I see a certain defendant with a new file because he's beat his wife again, it's not disappointing, because I know what he's all about. If that's "unconscionable", you're a jealous troll and I'm just FINALLY going to be done with these discussions because people can't read anything I say without piling on me again with this kind of shit.

Who is piling on?

[Radii]

Originally Posted by molson

Get over yourself. All I said was was that it's not disappointing because it's not surprising. I work as a prosecutor, when I see a certain defendant with a new file because he's beat his wife again, it's not disappointing, because I know what he's all about. If that's "unconscionable", you're a jealous troll and I'm just FINALLY going to be done with these discussions because people can't read anything I say without piling on me again with this kind of shit.

I'm not at all jealous, or a troll. I dislike the Pats as much as I dislike any other dynasty that's not of my own team's making, but I think you'll also find me publicly sympathizing with the frustrations of people like FrogMan and gstelmack and making fun of the insane back and forth on both sides of this boston hate fest.

And really I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that if you, and only you, were to stop posting in all of these boston threads, they would turn out drastically differently. And i don't believe that's because the other boston fans on the board would let all of us "jealous trolls" walk all over them. It'd be because there'd be no reason to show anything but respect.


I'm actually kinda curious to see other people's responses to this though. Your comparison, that its not "disappointing" to see a repeat offender turn up again for beating his wife, I mean, don't you see how that comes across? Maybe I'm just interpreting your words *completely* wrong, but man, that just seems kinda rough to me. Just because you're not surprised to see a bad person do a bad thing, doesn't mean that you can't be disappointed when said bad thing happened.

[Ksyrup]

OK, I'm confused. Why is this news now, because Specter said it? This information has been out there since September, and I also recall Chris Mortensen discussing it again during/after the SB coverage.


"As reported by ESPN in September 2007, Belichick privately admitted to Goodell that videotaping opposing team's defensive signals had been his standard practice since he became the New England coach in 2000. Belichick argued that he believed he was within the letter of the rule, as long as he did not use the material on game day.

The commissioner rejected the interpretation, and also cited a league memo distributed prior to the start of the season that specified teams were not to engage in such practice."


This has never been about a single instance of misconduct, no matter what Pats fans have been arguing since day one.

[Rizon]

The Dolphins were obviously the only team not to tape last year.

[SFL Cat]

I get the feeling that the Patsies were unable to tape the Giants before the Super Bowl

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by Radii

go read the college basketball thread, or the Kelvin Sampson to IU thread. Indiana fans are fanatically passionate about their team, they're having a superb year and its now being utterly rocked by scandal. People are shitting on Sampson and IU left and right. I have yet to see an Indiana fan say "well I'm not disappointed because we knew what we were getting" or "The rest of the NCAA cheats too so I don't care" or "fuck you all, do you want me to stop being an Indiana fan?" ... instead you see obviously pained people trying to enjoy a successful season, hoping their cheating coach is properly punished(and fired since he's kinda a serial cheater at this point) and hoping their storied program rises above it without too big a blemish.

*slow clap*

[rkmsuf]

this whole thing has soured me on the entire deal. fans, teams, media, politicians

utterly ridiculous the various dialogue that has gone on and continues to go on

sports is going to eat itself

[Subby]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

sports is going to eat itself

Dibs on Amanda Beard.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Subby

Dibs on Amanda Beard.

BASTARD!!!

[Cringer]

Well crap. I was looking forward to a few hours of driving today with NFL Radio on. Now I may have to find another channel to listen to if a lot of the talk ends up being about this old news......

It had little effect IMO.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Radii

go read the college basketball thread, or the Kelvin Sampson to IU thread. Indiana fans are fanatically passionate about their team, they're having a superb year and its now being utterly rocked by scandal. People are shitting on Sampson and IU left and right. I have yet to see an Indiana fan say "well I'm not disappointed because we knew what we were getting" or "The rest of the NCAA cheats too so I don't care" or "fuck you all, do you want me to stop being an Indiana fan?" ... instead you see obviously pained people trying to enjoy a successful season, hoping their cheating coach is properly punished(and fired since he's kinda a serial cheater at this point) and hoping their storied program rises above it without too big a blemish.

Agreed. If you look at that thread, my first response is something like "WTF - did we just hire a known cheater?" So clearly, I was opposed to bringing in a cheater from the start, and now that he has been exposed for cheating again (within the very first week that he was at IU, apparently), I have been in the "fire him, and let us serve our time for the cheating ASAP" crowd. No denials of guilt or trying to justify what happened. Just the honest hope that we can get rid of the asshole, do what we can to make sure it never happens again, and try to reclaim our good name. I never wanted him hired, and then when this stuff surfaced a while back, I immediately said we should fire him.

I guess I take pride in winning the right way. I guess there are a lot of win at all costs types out there.

[Maple Leafs]

This has become pretty much the standard reaction to any sports scandal (and definitely not limited to Pats fans).

- Scandal breaks
- "Who cares, it's not a big deal. Call me if this turns out to be widespread/frequent/more serious, maybe then you'd have something to talk about."
- Scandal revealed to indeed be widespread/frequent/more serious
- "Old news! This isn't new, we assumed that would be the case all along."

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by molson

Get over yourself. All I said was was that it's not disappointing because it's not surprising. I work as a prosecutor, when I see a certain defendant with a new file because he's beat his wife again, it's not disappointing, because I know what he's all about. If that's "unconscionable", you're a jealous troll and I'm just FINALLY going to be done with these discussions because people can't read anything I say without piling on me again with this kind of shit.

I guess I'm a troll. I'm in the camp that is still outraged that he is beating his wife again. I see now that the appropriate response is "Well, there he goes again" and then patting Belicheck on the back for a job well done.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

this whole thing has soured me on the entire deal. fans, teams, media, politicians

utterly ridiculous the various dialogue that has gone on and continues to go on

sports is going to eat itself

So the problem isn't that Belicheck is a cheater and that all he has accomplished has been tainted -- it's that the people who expect him not to cheat are being ridiculous.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Kodos

So the problem isn't that Belicheck is a cheater and that all he has accomplished has been tainted -- it's that the people who expect him not to cheat are being ridiculous.

no that's not the point

[Toddzilla]

I imagine if the Dolphins had been caught cheating in the same manner, first of all it wouldn't have made a bit of difference, and second no one would care because of the first point.

This is an issue because there is an easy result to tie to the cheating - whether that is the case or not.

Personally, feh.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Kodos

So the problem isn't that Belicheck is a cheater and that all he has accomplished has been tainted -- it's that the people who expect him not to cheat are being ridiculous.

I would love to see an audit of all NFL teams going back to 2000, if we're going to be fair about it.

[miked]

Originally Posted by Kodos

So the problem isn't that Belicheck is a cheater and that all he has accomplished has been tainted -- it's that the people who expect him not to cheat are being ridiculous.

I think the problem is that it's not just the Pats doing it, it's just that Mangina ratted out his former team. If no other teams were doing it, I'd have a hard time figuring out why coaches cover their mouths, have 3 different coaches sending in signals, and then have audibles. It's completely laughable to assume that the Pats are the only cheaters, and it's also sillier to say that this is some grand, pervasive problem. When the QB goes to the huddle, he has basically 20 seconds to get the play, call the play, lineup and make an audible. If you really think the Pats are watching the opposing coaches on the sideline sending in signals, comparing it to their notes, and then radioing down to Brady, you might need to move the tin foil. There is obviously an advantage, I just don't really think it's that evident.