Christian School to teen: Skip prom

[Galaxy]

Christian school to teen: Skip prom
He faces suspension if he goes to public school event
The Associated Press
updated 1:46 p.m. ET, Fri., May 8, 2009

FINDLAY, Ohio - A student at a fundamentalist Baptist school that forbids dancing, rock music, hand-holding and kissing will be suspended if he takes his girlfriend to her public high school prom, his principal said.

Despite the warning, 17-year-old Tyler Frost, who has never been to a dance before, said he plans to attend Findlay High School's prom Saturday.

Frost, a senior at Heritage Christian School in northwest Ohio, agreed to the school's rules when he signed a statement of cooperation at the beginning of the year, principal Tim England said.

The teen, who is scheduled to receive his diploma May 24, would be suspended from classes and receive an "incomplete" on remaining assignments, England said. Frost also would not be permitted to attend graduation but would get a diploma once he completes final exams. If Frost is involved with alcohol or sex at the prom, he will be expelled, England said.

Frost's stepfather Stephan Johnson said the school's rules should not apply outside the classroom.

"He deserves to wear that cap and gown," Johnson said.

Principal signed form
Frost said he thought he had handled the situation properly. Findlay requires students from other schools attending the prom to get a signature from their principal, which Frost did.

"I expected a short lecture about making the right decisions and not doing something stupid," Frost said. "I thought I would get his signature and that would be the end."

England acknowledged signing the form but warned Frost there would be consequences if he attended the dance. England then took the issue to a school committee made up of church members, who decided to threaten Frost with suspension.

"In life, we constantly make decisions whether we are going to please self or please God. (Frost) chose one path, and the school committee chose the other," England said.

The handbook for the 84-student Christian school says rock music "is part of the counterculture which seeks to implant seeds of rebellion in young people's hearts and minds."

Principal: Family 'disingenuous'?
England said Frost's family should not be surprised by the school's position.

"For the parents to claim any injustice regarding this issue is at best forgetful and at worst disingenuous," he said. "It is our hope that the student and his parents will abide by the policies they have already agreed to."

The principal at Findlay High School, whose graduates include Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger, said he respects, but does not agree with, Heritage Christian School's view of prom.

"I don't see (dancing and rock music) as immoral acts," Craig Kupferberg said.

Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

URL: Christian school to teen: Skip prom - Faith- msnbc.com

[JonInMiddleGA]

I saw that in the AJC this afternoon & couldn't quite figure out where the story was. While the whole music/dancing thing isn't part of my own religious concerns, I have a hard time believing this comes as any sort of surprise to someone who has been attending the school.

Heck, there's a school locally that will suspend (and expel for multiple violations) students who are caught with their car radios on any station other than the one owned by the group that operates the school. And cars must be left unlocked during the day, with regular checks on the radios conducted throughout the year. Personally seemed pretty nuts to me but you're also told about it right up front, so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
I have a tough time believing this prom deal was a real surprise to the student or his family either.

[EagleFan]

Unreal. This reminds me of my senior year. I went to a Christian school and we had a "formal" instead of a prom. It was the most boring event you could ever want to go to. It included hymns, a sermon and no dancing.

The parents of one of my friends were going to host an after party. It was going to have music and dancing. The school found out and issued a statement that anyone going to that would be expelled.

Instead of having a highly visible party where there was not going to be any alcohol and was being run by parents who would be there they would rather us sneak around and make our own plans.

Unfortunately two people who did this were discovered and they got expelled. Eight freaking days before graduation!!! In the ultimate double standard one of the girls involved was a junior at our school and not only got to finish out the year but the next year as well.

[Tekneek]

you're also told about it right up front, so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

I suppose the problem here is whether the student chose to attend this school or not. It is all well and good to say, "You knew the rules up front" when you are the one making the choices. If somebody else is making the choices for you, I don't think that applies nearly as well as you do.

[EagleFan]

I love the hypocricy by these places. I thought they are supposed to be teaching forgiveness but instead it's more intollerance.

[lungs]

I suppose the school is well within its rights, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be mocked.

[molson]

Originally Posted by lungs

I suppose the school is well within its rights, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be mocked.

They can be mocked for their rules, but so can the dummy parents who agree to rules, then complain about having to follow them.

I know one thing, that girl better put out if that guy gets expelled for her.

[I. J. Reilly]

My hat is off to the professionalism of the AP writer, it must have been difficult getting through the entire article without making at least one Footloose reference.

[MrBug708]

When I was a freshman, my high school kicked the homecoming queen out of school when she was seen smoking a cigarette outside of school

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

I suppose the problem here is whether the student chose to attend this school or not. It is all well and good to say, "You knew the rules up front" when you are the one making the choices. If somebody else is making the choices for you, I don't think that applies nearly as well as you do.

But it's the parents (well, *stepfather) who is quoted doing as much bitching as anyone. And I note the step parent distinction here because that opens the door to the possibility for the school decision being something he wasn't involved in from the get go. And after dealing with three different private schools in my own experience, his bit about rules not applying outside the classroom is downright funny. I've dealt with one Catholic school, one significantly faith influenced but technically secular school, and one entirely secular school and in each case there was specific conduct that would get you bounced no matter where it took place.

I really think the word choice in the school reaction, "disingenuous" is very spot on.

[Drake]

I attended a Baptist christian school my freshman year in HS. This set of rules and consequences is pretty standard.

My father is also a minister and disagreed with the school on several theological points, but he made sure we understood that if that was where we were going to school, we were agreeing to their standards of public behavior.

In other words, if we publicly violated any of the Baptist standards he disagreed with (like dancing and rock music), he wouldn't punish us, but he also wouldn't spare us the consequences. When we chose to attend that school, we were accepting the contract in their student handbook.

From that perspective, I completely get the school's point about the parents being disingenuous here. I was constantly amazed by the number of kids/parents who came to this school, read the handbook, then found reasons to bitch about the school's rules and how unfair they were.

[Tekneek]

Not sure that a minor can agree to any contract, including a school handbook.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Not sure that a minor can agree to any contract, including a school handbook.

The parent can certainly agree to send him there. It's their call. They can forbide their kid to go to prom, or they can sign their kid up for a school that forbids it. Same net result.

And it's not really a contract, it's an agreement. He doesn't have to abide by it. But he can't go to that school if he doesn't. The school isn't going to sue for damages.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Not sure that a minor can agree to any contract, including a school handbook.

Uh, that's why it's their parents that sign the form/contract. The parent's signature is enforceable on the kid.

[Tekneek]

I was just arguing semantics with that post.

[Abe Sargent]

I wonder what that school does with this?

2 Samuel 6:12-23:

12 Now King David was told, "The LORD has blessed the household of Obed-Edom and everything he has, because of the ark of God." So David went down and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-Edom to the City of David with rejoicing. 13 When those who were carrying the ark of the LORD had taken six steps, he sacrificed a bull and a fattened calf. 14 David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the LORD with all his might, 15 while he and the entire house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouts and the sound of trumpets.

16 As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, she despised him in her heart.

17 They brought the ark of the LORD and set it in its place inside the tent that David had pitched for it, and David sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings [f] before the LORD. 18 After he had finished sacrificing the burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD Almighty. 19 Then he gave a loaf of bread, a cake of dates and a cake of raisins to each person in the whole crowd of Israelites, both men and women. And all the people went to their homes.

20 When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, "How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, disrobing in the sight of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!"

21 David said to Michal, "It was before the LORD, who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the LORD's people Israel—I will celebrate before the LORD. 22 I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor."

23 And Michal daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.


Hey look , David is dancing around, someone doesn't like it, and then she is shamed for her stodgy and improper beliefs.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by molson

They can be mocked for their rules, but so can the dummy parents who agree to rules, then complain about having to follow them.

I know one thing, that girl better put out if that guy gets expelled for her.

I'd be willing to bet that the girls at his Christian school can suck a meaner dick than the public school bitches.

[molson]

People often claim that they don't have a problem with religion "unless it's shoved down our throats".

But obviously there's a fear/hatred of it beyond that, when people get upset about the rules of a PRIVATE religious school that has nothing to do with you. Why the hate? Why is this news?

I have other breaking news - The Amish live very simple, basic lives. Let's mock them too because they're different!

[lungs]

Originally Posted by molson

People often claim that they don't have a problem with religion "unless it's shoved down our throats".

But obviously there's a fear/hatred of it beyond that, when people get upset about the rules of a PRIVATE religious school that has nothing to do with you. Why the hate? Why is this news?

I have other breaking news - The Amish live very simple, basic lives. Let's mock them too because they're different!

I'd usually agree, but in this case I feel sheltering children from such evil things as dancing and rock can be counterproductive in the long run to what they are trying to accomplish.

The Amish allow the opportunity to experience the outside world.

[Galaxy]

How exactly do you ban rock music?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

I was just arguing semantics with that post.

People arguing meaningless semantics is usually how situations like this end up in the news.

When you know the rules, have agreed to the rules as a stipulation of participation, choose to break them and then decide that the rules are a problem, you're just being a douche.

Call it a contract, an agreement or just giving your word on your honor as a Boy Scout, whatever.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by molson

People often claim that they don't have a problem with religion "unless it's shoved down our throats".

But obviously there's a fear/hatred of it beyond that, when people get upset about the rules of a PRIVATE religious school that has nothing to do with you. Why the hate? Why is this news?

I have other breaking news - The Amish live very simple, basic lives. Let's mock them too because they're different!

Fear and hatred always seems to be the mantra of the group that is being criticized. It's news because in the 21st century it is ridiculous that the demons of rock and roll are still feared and hated by these baptists.

And as mentioned above, all I could think of was Footloose.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Drake

People arguing meaningless semantics is usually how situations like this end up in the news.

When you know the rules, have agreed to the rules as a stipulation of participation, choose to break them and then decide that the rules are a problem, you're just being a douche.

Call it a contract, an agreement or just giving your word on your honor as a Boy Scout, whatever.

I really couldn't care any less about this story. Anybody who even considered attending a school like that is a questionable sort to me. I don't really care whether they allow dancing, rock music, or whatever. I am more curious what their science curriculum is, to be honest.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

And as mentioned above, all I could think of was Footloose.

hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwBbMXYDsXw

[Drake]

I can almost 100% guarantee you that it's creationism based and when they cover Darwin, they state that he was either insane or that he just hated god and liked to masturbate.

Only the second half of that sentence is hyperbole.

I can be like 75% sure that they giggle about "Intelligent Design" and pat one another on the back for how clever they are for infiltrating the scientific establishment with religious ideas. Most of the kids will actually believe that christian fundamentalists are astoundingly clever and quietly winning the culture war until half of them go off to small religious colleges and either go into the ministry or decide they're gay (or both), while the other half go to public universities and realize what dumbasses their teachers were in high school. At least 10% of these kids will be verbally mauled in a public lecture hall by a professor because they read the Jack Chick tract and believe they can out-logic their instructor with all the groundbreaking ID stuff they learned in high school that the scientific establishment wont admit to and said instructor will subsequently quit his job because he's been shown the error of his ways.

Then, in their sophomore years, they will be introduced to pot and sex and realize that their teachers in high school were dumbasses.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

I am more curious what their science curriculum is, to be honest.

I imagine it's a very short course...god did it.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwBbMXYDsXw

Kenny Loggins in his prime!!!

[Buccaneer]

Abe, one of my books is called "Real Christians Don't Dance" by John Fischer (the "Don't" part is crossed out). Talked about the stupid things legalists and pharisees do instead of what really is important.

[watravaler]

Originally Posted by Drake

I can almost 100% guarantee you that it's creationism based and when they cover Darwin, they state that he was either insane or that he just hated god and liked to masturbate.

Only the second half of that sentence is hyperbole.

I can be like 75% sure that they giggle about "Intelligent Design" and pat one another on the back for how clever they are for infiltrating the scientific establishment with religious ideas. Most of the kids will actually believe that christian fundamentalists are astoundingly clever and quietly winning the culture war until half of them go off to small religious colleges and either go into the ministry or decide they're gay (or both), while the other half go to public universities and realize what dumbasses their teachers were in high school. At least 10% of these kids will be verbally mauled in a public lecture hall by a professor because they read the Jack Chick tract and believe they can out-logic their instructor with all the groundbreaking ID stuff they learned in high school that the scientific establishment wont admit to and said instructor will subsequently quit his job because he's been shown the error of his ways.

Then, in their sophomore years, they will be introduced to pot and sex and realize that their teachers in high school were dumbasses.

Excellent, and pretty much spot on. This is exactly what I went through...

[Karlifornia]

I guess my school was kind of different. I did lines off of the principal's ass.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

I wonder what that school does with this?

Hey look , David is dancing around, someone doesn't like it, and then she is shamed for her stodgy and improper beliefs.

Read it in context. David was dancing before for the Lord as an act of worship. Michal saw him and despised him for his relationship with the Lord. God knowing about this shuns her. That's completely different then two high schoolers going to prom and dancing vastly as a social event with the full intent of hooking up on various levels.

[thesloppy]

To be fair, can we really say that "he knew what the consequences were" in this case? It sounds like they made up the consequences after the fact, so in fact everybody just knew there would be "consequences", and nobody actually knew what they were. Isn't the school just as guilty of being disingenuous for saying this kid and family should have been prepared for the consequences, because they signed a contract, even though the consequences were apparently completely undefined? If they had decided the kid should've been tarred and feathered, should they have also accepted that unflinchingly?

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

To be fair, can we really say that "he knew what the consequences were" in this case? It sounds like they made up the consequences after the fact, so in fact everybody just knew there would be "consequences", and nobody actually knew what they were. Isn't the school just as guilty of being disingenuous for saying this kid and family should have been prepared for the consequences, because they signed a contract, even though the consequences were apparently completely undefined? If they had decided the kid should've been tarred and feathered, should they have also accepted that unflinchingly?

You don't sign a contract where the consequences aren't laid out. Period. If they weren't, the school and the parents need to be smacked up side the head.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Matthean

You don't sign a contract where the consequences aren't laid out. Period. If they weren't, the school and the parents need to be smacked up side the head.

I agree completely, but that's certainly the way the article makes it sound.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Matthean

You don't sign a contract where the consequences aren't laid out. Period. If they weren't, the school and the parents need to be smacked up side the head.

It is not a contract.

[Galaxy]

Can you enforce something that you do outside of your school? What if he is under 18?

Isn't this like your boss telling you that you can't listen to rock music or dance outside of work? Is that even legal (unless it's a criminal violation)?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

It is not a contract.

Depending upon the school, there can however definitely be contractual terms to private school enrollment. One secular private school in Florida is particularly adept at enforcing them (ran across them & their story when our old school brought in a new headmaster from there after we left), to the tune of consistently winning six figure judgments if you default on payment. Different level of contractual obligation, just making the point that there are indeed "contracts" involved with many private schools in every legal sense of the word.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Depending upon the school, there can however definitely be contractual terms to private school enrollment. One secular private school in Florida is particularly adept at enforcing them (ran across them & their story when our old school brought in a new headmaster from there after we left), to the tune of consistently winning six figure judgments if you default on payment.

It's too bad that dealing with lawyers is not against their religion.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Can you enforce something that you do outside of your school? What if he is under 18?

Absolutely, because there is no "right" for him to be there whatsoever.
He plays by their rules or he doesn't play there, he's certainly free to play somewhere else. Never seen a private school yet that doesn't leave themselves with leeway for expulsion as they see fit, even if it comes down to "as determined by" a committee or board of directors or whatever.

Through three schools, I've seen grounds for expulsion that included underage alcohol use, anything drug related (use, possession, even entering rehab which is a de facto acknowledgment of use), pregnancy, fathering a child, and one of the more common ones that I know is in a number of the smaller private school rules is getting married while enrolled. And then there are often nebulous phrases like "and other conduct deemed unbecoming of a student at XYZ" which cover a lot of ground.

[Young Drachma]

Hope the prom night is "worth it."

[BrianD]

If this is the way the kid and his stepfather feel, there are probably plenty of reasons that this school wasn't right for them.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

It's too bad that dealing with lawyers is not against their religion.

Please note that the school I was talking about is about as secular as you can get. Think northeastern prep school complete with jackets with the school crest sort of stereotype except there are orange groves nearby. To put it in some perspective, you know those little fundraisers that students are inevitable dragged into or charity events like Relay for Life? Their top kids were bringing in $50k in donations for the charities & selling over $10k in magazines & such.

[Young Drachma]

I was being funny. But that said, it's not like he's being expelled. He'll still get his diploma and so, really, meh.

[Mac Howard]

In the 16th century a religious student at The University of Venice read a bible printed in Italian so they boiled him in oil (it was probably in his contract). So we're making headway - slowly

[KWhit]

It still amazes me that in this day and age that people can be so backward. Not allowing 17-18 year olds to listen to "rock" music or dance? Give me a break.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Drake

I can almost 100% guarantee you that it's creationism based and when they cover Darwin, they state that he was either insane or that he just hated god and liked to masturbate.

Only the second half of that sentence is hyperbole.

I can be like 75% sure that they giggle about "Intelligent Design" and pat one another on the back for how clever they are for infiltrating the scientific establishment with religious ideas. Most of the kids will actually believe that christian fundamentalists are astoundingly clever and quietly winning the culture war until half of them go off to small religious colleges and either go into the ministry or decide they're gay (or both), while the other half go to public universities and realize what dumbasses their teachers were in high school. At least 10% of these kids will be verbally mauled in a public lecture hall by a professor because they read the Jack Chick tract and believe they can out-logic their instructor with all the groundbreaking ID stuff they learned in high school that the scientific establishment wont admit to and said instructor will subsequently quit his job because he's been shown the error of his ways.

Then, in their sophomore years, they will be introduced to pot and sex and realize that their teachers in high school were dumbasses.

winner

[sterlingice]

Hey, you signed the agreement and had to know what you were getting into. It's not like this snuck up on you. Live with it.

To all the contract posts, I'm sure the wording is that punishments will be at the school's discretion which leaves a lot of legal wiggle room. Aren't lawyers great?

I wouldn't let my kids within a thousand feet of there, but he did and there's nothing illegal or, frankly, immoral, about what the school is doing.

SI

[Drake]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

...and there's nothing illegal or, frankly, immoral, about what the school is doing...

Well, they are Baptists. That has to count against them for something.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Drake

Well, they are Baptists. That has to count against them for something.

I'm reaching the conclusion that you're actually meant to be some sort of challenge to my personal faith or something. Given your trolling in this thread it's really difficult not to relish the notion of you burning in Hell for all eternity.

I'm working on it, but it's a challenge.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Drake

Well, they are Baptists. That has to count against them for something.

Not what I meant. I mean there are a lot of things that are legal by the letter of the law- a lot of this banking crap that's going on is legal because there's no law against it. But it shouldn't be. Not the case here.

SI