Ping Atheists/Agnostics: How do you handle religion/church with your kids?

[Kodos]

My son is 4 years old now, and at some point I'll have to figure out whether I need to sack up and go to church for his (and my baby daughter's) "benefit". While I personally am not religious, I want my kids to be able to make that decision for themselves. In other words, I don't want to force my lack of religious beliefs down the kid's throats.

What do you guys do? So far, we simply haven't gone to church. Taking the kids there would, in a very real way, feel like lying to them, since I would potentially be projecting religious beliefs to my kids that aren't actually there. Like I said, I ultimately want the kids to come to their own conclusions sometime down the road, rather than creating little clones who parrot my own beliefs. Can folks who are a little farther down this road chime in with how they handled the situation?

[Fidatelo]

I'll be in a similar situation someday soon, so I'm interested about this as well.

And not to threadjack, but maybe to thread-add: how should something like baptism be handled? My wife wants our kids baptised. I'm not really against it, but I'm not necessarily for it either. Also, I wasn't baptised and she says I should be at the same time (so that I'll be in heaven with my kids or something). I'm not so sure I agree, yet it seems stupid to get in a fight over someone pouring some water on my head.

[Kodos]

My wife believes in God, but doesn't attend church, and in general is not a fan of most organized religion. We simply haven't had them baptised, even though her father is a Reverend.

If she had pushed for them at all, I would have gone along with it.

[Lorena]

We're not religious either. I dunno, the way I see it is, if they don't ask, don't bother. Our oldest who is 8 didn't start asking until a couple of years ago. We don't go into specifics or anything, just basic stuff and we re-iterate that there are different beliefs out there.

[sabotai]

I can only tell you what my parents did since they wanted the same thing (for me and my siblings to come to our own conclusions). They never took us to church, but when I asked to go to church with my friends, they let me. In other words, they didn't take me, but they didn't keep me from it either. Religion has simply never been something my family discussed all that much. I'm sure I asked them at some point when I was kid what they believed, but I don't remember. All I know is that my parents and siblings believe in God, or at least something like God, but do not go to church.

[lordscarlet]

I don't have kids, but I would think you don't take them unless they ask. I'm not sure why you would take them just to not force your lack of beliefs on them. Religion is out there. If they get curious, take them to a church of their choosing.

[johnnyshaka]

Both my girls have been baptized and we'll be talking about church soon enough. Both my wife and I are Catholic but I've only gone to church when absolutely necessary (weddings, funerals, etc.) while she will attend from time to time when her mother is in town or when we're visiting her. I know she wants us to start taking the girls when they are older and I'm sure I'll go along with it, like a good CATHOLIC husband/father should.

Note: Please don't mix up the last statement...I'm not saying you are a bad husband/father if you don't take your kids to church but you would be viewed to be a less than stellar Catholic in the Church's eyes.

[JediKooter]

If they want to go to church with a friend, let them. I say let them find out for themselves what the actual church experience is. When I was a kid, it didn't take me long at all to figure out that it was not for me.

As for questions they may ask, just be honest.

[BYU 14]

I have gone through a loop here. I had Mormonism foced on me by a step father and while I have a respect for the religion, being made to go as a child pushed me completely away from any religion, to where I was basically agnostic. I am now fairly religious and attend church on a semi-regular basis and as far as my Kids go, I have two that are agnostic and two that are semi-religious and the other one is more religious than any of us.

I think the key is we talked about it and encouraged all the kids to explore different beliefs and and make their own decisions. At the age your kids are, if they express an interest I would totally encourage them to check it out, then as they get older discuss the different types of beliefs with them and encourage them to explore multiple options, including atheism as extreme as that sounds and go with what makes them feel comfortable.

[Fidatelo]

I find the 'go with a friend' answer a little weird. If you are open enough to let your child decide for themselves, shouldn't you be open enough to check it out with them? Shouldn't you want to be there with them and to talk about the experience with them afterward? I think I'd be a little leery of letting some other parent take my place during a very influential and important moment in my child's life.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

I find the 'go with a friend' answer a little weird. If you are open enough to let your child decide for themselves, shouldn't you be open enough to check it out with them? Shouldn't you want to be there with them and to talk about the experience with them afterward? I think I'd be a little leery of letting some other parent take my place during a very influential and important moment in my child's life.

I did it when I was a kid. It wasn't really a big deal to me. The typical situation was, "Spend the night at a friends house, but they go to church the next day." So, if I wanted to spend the night, that was the deal, unless my mom would come by and pick me up before they went.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

I find the 'go with a friend' answer a little weird. If you are open enough to let your child decide for themselves, shouldn't you be open enough to check it out with them? Shouldn't you want to be there with them and to talk about the experience with them afterward? I think I'd be a little leery of letting some other parent take my place during a very influential and important moment in my child's life.

I would expect that he already knows his beliefs and doesn't need to "check it out."

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

I would expect that he already knows his beliefs and doesn't need to "check it out."

Sorry, not what I meant to convey. I meant just go to support the child's "checking out" of the church. Just because you walk in the door doesn't mean you have to be there as a follower/potential follower (same deal with going to a funeral/wedding etc).

[hoopsguy]

I went through this same process recently. I'm an atheist and my wife was raised Lutheran. She wanted to give our daughter a Christian upbringing, something that I was not totally opposed to even if it does not match my belief structure.

I told her that I would support going to church with her and our daughter, although I had a few ground rules:
1.) We found a church together where we could both be happy with the current pastor/reverend/whatever.
2.) If I was going to go through with this process, I did not want us to be a family that only attended Christmas and Easter. If that was going to be the case, why bother in the first place.
3.) Some flexibility about attending Saturday services if they wanted me along, as I have a semi-regular Sunday morning basketball game.

We ended up joining a United Methodist church (not a Lutheran one), based in part on my wife's aunt being a long-time member. My wife likes knowing someone in the congregation when she attends and it is nice for her to have another connection point to her family. It is also good that my daughter gets a little more exposure to some of her extended family.

OK, back to one of the core points from the original post. I'm certainly not wild about the idea of "lying" to my daughter, but that really is not an issue right now since she has not yet turned 2. I expect that I probably won't rush to tell her that I do not believe in a supreme being, creation, etc. But when the direct question comes, I don't think that I'll duck it either.

[Groundhog]

Don't have kids, but can talk about my experience. My mum is Agnostic, but religion was never really a topic of conversation for us, one way or the other. We had scripture at school and I went to church youth group for a few years as well, though the former was forced on me and the latter was more to meet girls than anything else.

My advice, don't feel like you have to take your kid to church for their benefit. They are going to be exposed to religion soon enough anyhow, and if that ignites a curiosity in them and they want to go, then take them.

[Toddzilla]

As an agnostic and a UU, my family and I go to church every Sunday. My daughter gets Religious Education and my wife and I watch the sermon then teah RE. For UUs, RE consists mostly of educating the kids on our core principles - the inherent worth and dignity of every human, etc - as well as learning about all of the world's religions - Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, etc. It's kind of a grab bag. The important part of the RE program - especially in our church, is that we present everything as food for thought and let the kids make up their own minds. If my daughter asked me if I believe in God, I'd tell her "No." and then ask her what she thought and why, and enforce in her that her beliefs are valid and important no matter what they are.

However the whole "going to church" experience is really about the community we are a part of. Our closest friends are from our church and we love the opportunity to get together every week, hear a good thought-provoking sermon, and then hang out and talk.

So, short story long, you should always be honest with your kids, never be afraid to say "I don't know" and make sure they feel empowered to believe what they feel is right.

[RainMaker]

I don't really feel a child can make an educated decision like that so young in life. I would probably just educate them on the different beliefs that are out there. Let them know why people go to Church, what they believe, and why you don't. Let them figure it out for themselves as they grow older.

I really don't think you make those decisions till you are in your late teens. I came from a family that was mixed on religion. They did send me to CCD, made sure I had my first holy communion and we went to church on occasion. By the time I was in my teens, I was more or less an agnostic and made that decision on my own. I doubt they really believe in God but we still celebrate Christmas and other holidays.

I've debated for awhile whether my parents were right or wrong on their decision to send me to classes. On one hand it was never something that interested me while on the other it was a life experience. I personally don't think you can go wrong either way as long as you aren't forcing beliefs on your kids and giving them the freedom to ask questions and make up their own minds.

[Lonnie]

I have a son and two step sons. In my youth I attended church regularly with my Grandmother, but my parents rarely went. I learned the bible and made my own decisions in life; culminating in a very agnostic/atheistic view. I don't go to church and do not make my sons go to church. They choose on their own. The oldest is now engaged to a girl that is going to school to be a pastor. The second really likes the church teen activities, but doesn't like being pushed by his brother and future sister in law about religion. The youngest goes with friends occasionally, but has already stated that he is probably agnostic (at 16, much younger than when I figured it out). I tell him I feel the same and every person should make their own choices.

Bottom line is I don't pressure them into any view, and they make their own decisions fairly well.

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by Kodos

My son is 4 years old now, and at some point I'll have to figure out whether I need to sack up and go to church for his (and my baby daughter's) "benefit". While I personally am not religious, I want my kids to be able to make that decision for themselves. In other words, I don't want to force my lack of religious beliefs down the kid's throats.

I can't quite understand your logic, kodos. You don't wish to force your religious views on your son - which is fine - but you would allow others to force theirs on him. A church deliberately creates the environment and atmosphere to reinforce faith. It will probably do a much better job of indoctrination than you could ever manage

The problem for agnostics and atheists is that the religious can't help forcing their views on others. Sometimes it's incidental such as Christmas, Easter etc though I find these sufficiently secular not to cause any problems - indeed Christmas trees and easter eggs are as common in my home as any Christian's. Sometimes it's evangelical when the religious think they're doing us a favour by "bringing us to god". Sometimes it's sociological when you may be picked out as in some way deviant. Sometimes, particularly in America, through politics as Christians, in particular, try to enshrine their views in legislation.

From your use of the word "benefit" I suspect you are succumbing to these influences, particularly the third.

I have a daughter. I would rather she be left alone until she has the ability to understand the difference between fact and faith. But that isn't possible. She goes to an Anglican school (a difficult decision for me) because the state schools are poor academically, badly funded and have disciplinary problems but the only affordable private schools are religious schools supported by government grants. A clear case of promoting religion through politics. So my daughter does have some religious indoctrination in her educational life and I allow myself a mild opposition to compensate - she knows mummy and daddy "don't believe in god" but that's about as far as it goes.

She's just turned 14, has no current interest in religion, and I'll leave it until she shows some interest before explaining why.

[bignej]

By allowing your children to go to church at an early age you are making indoctrination easy for the church. Kids want to be liked by their family and friends and it will be that much easier for them to be influenced. I feel especially strong on the topic of baptism because they can get that done at any point in their life. Why not let them make that decision for themselves when the are old enough to actually believe or not? I wish my parents never baptized me and they thought they were doing the "right" thing. I've taken the stance with my parents and my in-laws that they are not to bring up the topic of religion at all to my children until they are old enough to semi decipher the information. Right now my kids just want to make everyone happy and could be very easily manipulated. My kids can choose to believe what they want but since they would believe in the easter bunny and santa clause at this point, now is not that time.

Edit: I want to add just one thing. My number one goal here is to protect their minds and keep them as free as possible. I don't rant to them at all about how god doesn't exist or anything. The topic is simply not discussed and that is incredibly important for an open mind IMO.

[spleen1015]

I'm not sure if a believe in God, but my wife does. She has taken my 6 year old daughter to church a few times and my daughter has enjoyed it. She has asked to go back a few times.

My daughter also says prayers every night. She specifically asked my wife to teach her how to pray. So, before bed every night she prays.

I don't have any issues with it. I can't see any negative in it.

[gi]

Some time before they go off to school / They ask, I'll be explaining what religion is, etc. The Freedom From Religion Foundation has good info if you want to educate your children on religion, though the atheist/agnostic viewpoint is represented. I married someone that shares my belief system, and luckily don't have to have that conversation with my wife about raising our children with mixed belief systems. I'd recommend whatever you elect to teach your children, make sure your spouse is on board.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

I can't quite understand your logic, kodos. You don't wish to force your religious views on your son - which is fine - but you would allow others to force theirs on him. A church deliberately creates the environment and atmosphere to reinforce faith. It will probably do a much better job of indoctrination than you could ever manage

"Benefit" signified my own belief that any gain was dubious from my standpoint.

And I definitely would fight any indoctrination. Nothing annoys me quicker than somebody trying to shove religion down somebody else's throat. I feel a bit for my nephew and niece who get Catholicism shoved down their throats at every turn by their mother.

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Nothing annoys me quicker than somebody trying to shove religion down somebody else's throat.

But that's what a church does, Kodos. I think even Christians will agree with me that going to church isn't some meaningless Sunday morning outing. It instills religious feeling, promotes the teaching of that particular religion and generally develops, confirms and reinforces religious belief. It's not something you do just because there's nothing on tv.

I know people don't like the word "indoctrination" but if you take a child with a malleable mind into an environment in which religious faith is assumed and presented as truth then it will "indoctrinate" that young mind. Until that young mind is capable of scepticism, of recognising there's a difference between faith and fact then, for me, it should be left alone.

[IrishHand]

I've always felt that the only defensible "good" from organized religion is the standardization of positive morals. So saying, there is no need for the former to possess the latter.

If you're good parents and you've raised your children well, my perspective is that the value of religion is nearly non-existent. As noted by others, church is simply there to propagandize a certain faith-based viewpoint. I have zero inclination to expose my children to that without a compelling reason.

If either my son or my daughter expressed interest in religion, I'd be more than happy to educate them on the history and beliefs of any of the major religions that I'm familiar with, and more than happy to provide them resources to learn about ones that I'm not. At that point, if they wanted to immerse themselves in a specific religion or religions, I certainly wouldn't oppose it. So saying, I would be very surprised if that ever occurred. I was raised in a very open, inquisitive and academic home and I like to think I foster the same thing now...and frankly there's never been a "need" (if that's the right word) for organized religion.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

But that's what a church does, Kodos. I think even Christians will agree with me that going to church isn't some meaningless Sunday morning outing. It instills religious feeling, promotes the teaching of that particular religion and generally develops, confirms and reinforces religious belief. It's not something you do just because there's nothing on tv.

I know people don't like the word "indoctrination" but if you take a child with a malleable mind into an environment in which religious faith is assumed and presented as truth then it will "indoctrinate" that young mind. Until that young mind is capable of scepticism, of recognising there's a difference between faith and fact then, for me, it should be left alone.

I think this would partly depend on the church and pastor. There are huge variations on how 'religious' a church can be (as dumb as that sounds, hopefully it makes sense).

That said, that's why I find the 'go with a friend' response some people gave earlier strange. I'd want to be there to see what was going on, and perhaps provide a counter to any over the top 'indoctrination' that might occur.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by IrishHand

I've always felt that the only defensible "good" from organized religion is the standardization of positive morals. So saying, there is no need for the former to possess the latter.

If you're good parents and you've raised your children well, my perspective is that the value of religion is nearly non-existent. As noted by others, church is simply there to propagandize a certain faith-based viewpoint. I have zero inclination to expose my children to that without a compelling reason.

I think the other positive role religion/church can play is the idea of community and helpfulness.

Of course, there are a lot of negatives as well (hypocrisy being paramount), but you can't win 'em all I guess :P

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

But that's what a church does, Kodos. I think even Christians will agree with me that going to church isn't some meaningless Sunday morning outing. It instills religious feeling, promotes the teaching of that particular religion and generally develops, confirms and reinforces religious belief. It's not something you do just because there's nothing on tv.

I know people don't like the word "indoctrination" but if you take a child with a malleable mind into an environment in which religious faith is assumed and presented as truth then it will "indoctrinate" that young mind. Until that young mind is capable of scepticism, of recognising there's a difference between faith and fact then, for me, it should be left alone.

And that happens when? Around 13 or some teen year at least? I'm not sure that's such a huge problem. I guess I would think that if Kodos is worried about letting his kids have the choice more available, he might as well take them to church, since it's more likely that they will get fed up with church and not go once they grow up instead of becoming interested in religion after not having attended at all (so that way, there's less chance that Kodos is the one making the decision for them).

[Subby]

Glad to see I am not the only one struggling with this.

For me, it transcends religion. Our church is a positive environment for my kids. Good families, good programs, good messages. The more that they interact with other kids and adults in those kinds of environments, the better.

[molson]

I'm an agnostic now but I'm really happy I had the chance to be involved so much in a church as a kid. I never felt anybody, including my parents, were forcing anything. It was a family activity that I participated in, like any other family activity.

Some people talk about church like it's some kind of cult, and maybe those churches are out there, but it certainly wasn't my experience (Lutheran). Actually, the thing I remember most is talking about the Celtics and Bruins after church with the adults, and feeling all positive and grown up that I was "accepted" into those kind of conversations with them. Looking back, the place was filled with really, really good people, and I definitely think that benefited me.

And then there was church summer camp.....At a time when high school wasn't really clicking for me socially - somehow spending the summer in the woods with teenage Scandinavian Lutheran girls did.

It also gave me a respect for organized religion and people who are involved in them, even if I'm no longer involved. I think that's a big one. You see a lot of otherwise decent people spitting on other people's faiths (including at FOFC), and I guess it's just a fear/parnoia of the unknown, I don't think they see how it looks. I think it's good for kids to experience different things to help foster that respect in others.

If I ever had kids, I'd definitely raise them Lutheran.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by Subby

Glad to see I am not the only one struggling with this.

For me, it transcends religion. Our church is a positive environment for my kids. Good families, good programs, good messages. The more that they interact with other kids and adults in those kinds of environments, the better.

Subby, I'm with you. For the most part, the family and community environment created by whatever faith you choose to follow can reinforce the values and beliefs you are trying to instill in your children. Make no mistake, I would like my children to get started on, what I think, is the right path and when they are old enough and mature enough to question it, then, by all means, they are free to make their own choices.

For those who insist on wanting to keep their child's mind "free" or "open" until they are old enough to decide...I'm curious, what do you guys do/talk about with your child during all these formidable years...presumably, right now? I would assume TV/movies/books/video games/other kids/other adults/etc. would be things you would want to keep your child away from because they could be swayed by anyone of those factors to form an opinion without having all the facts or the cognitive maturity to make an intelligent decision on their own, no? I mean, how do kids find out about stuff if they aren't exposed to it by their parents? How will Little Johnny decide if he likes music if he isn't exposed to it? How will Little Sally decide if she likes dancing if she isn't exposed to it?

[Ajaxab]

I've never understood the indoctrination/forcing beliefs argument. It just doesn't make any sense. No matter what you do, you are indoctrinating/forcing some kind of belief on your child. Whether that is the belief in a specific religion, a belief that all religions are hokey, a belief that some religions have some truth or a belief that the child should pick and choose, the parent is indoctrinating the child and forcing a belief on that child. Just as a child may be forced to go to church/synagogue/mosque so too may a child be prevented from going to church/synagogue/mosque as well. Of course, once the child gets to a certain age (the number is up for debate), then that child can begin to think about what they have been indoctrinated into and that belief system is no longer indoctrination.

So you're going to be forcing a belief on your child no matter what. No need to feel guilty about it. It's up to you to weigh the merits of what you are indoctrinating that child into.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Subby

Glad to see I am not the only one struggling with this.

For me, it transcends religion. Our church is a positive environment for my kids. Good families, good programs, good messages. The more that they interact with other kids and adults in those kinds of environments, the better.

I don't hardly ever get caught up in the religious debates on the forums here as I honestly feel each person is allowed to choose what they will. I have mentioned before that I am Christian and I go to church semi-regularly (2 times a month on average). Coming from the opposite side from what seems like most of the posters in this thread however, this is not necessarily an easy answer for me either.

Just like other parents who might not share my beliefs, I do want my children to make their decisions for themselves. In the end the decision I made was to not really bring my girls to church at a super early age (as it ends up just being daycare for them anyways). My oldest child is 8 (soon to be 9) and I'm thinking that I want to start talking to her more about religion, what I believe and what others believe, and start having her to go with me at least occasionally to Church. I want her to make the decision for herself if she wants to go or not at some point just as my parents did with me (I did not go to church regularly as a child).

The reason I quoted Subby's post is one of the biggest reasons that I think I am close to ready for my oldest daughter to start going occasionally. I honestly am worried about the world, I worry about who my child might associate with, who they might go out on weekends with as she gets older, etc. I can do what I can to try to educate her to make smart choices and not do things that will bring her trouble, but I think I will feel better if some of her choices will end up being to go on a weekend ski trip with a church youth group rather than hang out at the mall and smoke or get in trouble at an early age.

I fully understand that there are still possibilities of getting in trouble on church trips (they are still pre-teens/teenagers/young adults), and likewise there are other ways to bring positive groups or organizations into my kids lives as well. I'm trying to encourage those as well (my oldest daughter played soccer last year and just started softball this year as an example).

I just wanted to provide my parenting choices as somewhat of a reverse perspective from others in this thread. Just for compare and contrast purposes.

[bignej]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

Subby, I'm with you. For the most part, the family and community environment created by whatever faith you choose to follow can reinforce the values and beliefs you are trying to instill in your children. Make no mistake, I would like my children to get started on, what I think, is the right path and when they are old enough and mature enough to question it, then, by all means, they are free to make their own choices.

For those who insist on wanting to keep their child's mind "free" or "open" until they are old enough to decide...I'm curious, what do you guys do/talk about with your child during all these formidable years...presumably, right now? I would assume TV/movies/books/video games/other kids/other adults/etc. would be things you would want to keep your child away from because they could be swayed by anyone of those factors to form an opinion without having all the facts or the cognitive maturity to make an intelligent decision on their own, no? I mean, how do kids find out about stuff if they aren't exposed to it by their parents? How will Little Johnny decide if he likes music if he isn't exposed to it? How will Little Sally decide if she likes dancing if she isn't exposed to it?

I'm not opposed to teaching other views when asked. While the religious community may be full of nice people, it is irrelevant to me. They get plenty of time to play with others without that setting. Its one thing to teach your children to root for the Cleveland Browns but it's a whole other ballgame when it comes to something that may spend a lifetime believing and fearing. If Grandma teaches a child the "right" belief structure, don't you think your child will be more inclined to believe that too, regardless of facts? Same rule applies to their friends. They are not allowed to go to church unless they can tell me why they would like to go, such as "I would like to learn about this." I will teach my kids facts and logic and if that leads them to religion(unlikely) than so be it. I feel bad enough tricking them into believing in Santa Claus.
Let me ask you this? Do you take your child to the services of every kind of religion? Whats the harm? They all have the same values. Every time I hear this argument it makes my skin crawl.

[bignej]

Originally Posted by Ajaxab

I've never understood the indoctrination/forcing beliefs argument. It just doesn't make any sense. No matter what you do, you are indoctrinating/forcing some kind of belief on your child. Whether that is the belief in a specific religion, a belief that all religions are hokey, a belief that some religions have some truth or a belief that the child should pick and choose, the parent is indoctrinating the child and forcing a belief on that child. Just as a child may be forced to go to church/synagogue/mosque so too may a child be prevented from going to church/synagogue/mosque as well. Of course, once the child gets to a certain age (the number is up for debate), then that child can begin to think about what they have been indoctrinated into and that belief system is no longer indoctrination.

So you're going to be forcing a belief on your child no matter what. No need to feel guilty about it. It's up to you to weigh the merits of what you are indoctrinating that child into.

You are not indoctrinating your child into non-belief if religion is a non issue in your house. If you never talk about basketball you are not indoctrinating your child's views one way or another. They will form their own opinion when exposed to it.

[molson]

Originally Posted by bignej

You are not indoctrinating your child into non-belief if religion is a non issue in your house. If you never talk about basketball you are not indoctrinating your child's views one way or another. They will form their own opinion when exposed to it.

When are they going to be exposed to it, from others, through school? Wouldn't you, as the parent, want to be involved in that process too?

I was definitely "indoctrinated" into being a baseball fan when I was kid from my father, and I'm glad I was. Does anyone become baseball fans as adults?

Being indoctrinated into a religion I guess is different. But how do you explain all these people that went to church as a kid and now don't anymore?

[bignej]

Originally Posted by molson

When are they going to be exposed to it, from others, through school? Would you, as the parent, want to be involved in that process too?

I was definitely "indoctrinated" into being a baseball fan when I was kid from my father, and I'm glad I was. Does anyone become baseball fans as adults?

They will definitely be exposed to it. Its discussed on television and during the holidays. There is a difference between being exposed and being indoctrinated. If they see and ask, "Who is God?" I will answer that some cultures believe in a creator ,etc. I will supply examples such as the christian god, zeus etc. If they ask what I believe, I will tell them.

Your last question I think proves my point. You are more inclined to believe something and have it feel natural for you if you are around it a lot as a child and have positive experiences with it. That leads them one way or another. I think there is a lot more at stake with matters such as religion. In a similar vein, most racist people are racist because they learned their prejudices from their parents. It feels natural for them to think themselves superior because that's how they grew up. People aren't born racist. No, I will not show my kids how to be a a racist so they can see the other side of that way of thinking. If they want to be racist later, fine, but I won't show them. I'm not saying racism and religion are the same thing, just that they are both seriously life altering ways of thinking.

[Sgran]

Our case is weird because my wife is a non-practicing Jew and I'm a flaming, burn-in-Hell atheist. Our older daughter is 9 and has already gone through a faze of interest in religion. My wife was great, reading to her from an illustrated children's bible, both old and new testament stories. My job is astronomy and earth sciences. We answer any questions she throws at us (I even had to tell her what a homosexual was recently), although we've danced around the tougher sex questions.
I'll admit that I don't mind going to protestant services in the States. Truth be told, I wish you could somehow simulate the atmosphere of spirituality without the basic assumptions about Christ and a personal god.
In short, Kudos, I don't think religious teaching is like learning to speak or catch a ball where you're going to be stunted if you're not introduced to it at a young age.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Sgran

Truth be told, I wish you could somehow simulate the atmosphere of spirituality without the basic assumptions about Christ and a personal god.

You might be interested in this:

Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations

It's something I looked up when I was having similar questions to those in this thread when my wife was pregnant. A few years later I'm still not sure what avenue I'm going to take with her, but I will take an active role when I determine what that is...I'd rather introduce her to this subject than have others do it for her.

[Ajaxab]

Originally Posted by bignej

You are not indoctrinating your child into non-belief if religion is a non issue in your house. If you never talk about basketball you are not indoctrinating your child's views one way or another. They will form their own opinion when exposed to it.

To use your basketball example here. If you never talk about basketball, you are indoctrinating your child into the belief that basketball is not important. Indoctrination is unavoidable if the child is not old enough to be able to begin to understand the implications of the choices a parent is making. Because you are not talking about basketball, the child is already forming an opinion about basketball, an opinion that basketball isn't worthy of attention. The same could be said of religion. Failing to talk about religion is indoctrinating the child into a belief that religion is not worthy of attention.

Parenting a young child is unavoidably about indoctrination into how that child should behave. Even if that parent never pays any attention to that child, the child is being indoctrinated into a certain perspective on parent-child relationships.

Children can obviously make their own decisions as they get older, but the indoctrination/belief forcing question has no bearing here. Every parent has to do it simply by virtue of being a parent. Again, it's a matter of what the parent is indoctrinating the child with and not indoctrination.

[bignej]

I think there is a big difference between teaching them about religion and teaching them to be religious.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by bignej

I think there is a big difference between teaching them about religion and teaching them to be religious.

+1

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by bignej

I think there is a big difference between teaching them about religion and teaching them to be religious.

yep.

my wife is Catholic. I'm undeclared. She had stopped going to church before we meant, but now that the kids are of that age, we've started going and my oldest is going to Sunday school. We don't go, um, religiously, but often enough to expose the kids to it. I think it's healthy for them to have some exposure to religion.

As for me, it's not a big deal. It's not my favorite way to spend an hour and a half, but it's not a total loss - I usually enjoy the sermons (with the exception of the one jarring anti-abortion rant) and I've even taken the kids a couple of times alone when the wife is working. Overall the experience has been quite positive.

[Tekneek]

I will get the name of some of the books my wife has read to our kids. Some of them have stories from various religions/myths from all over the world. It's an easy way to expose your children to religious stories, plus you can easily see how so many of them are almost exact copies of each other (including the Christian ones too).

[cthomer5000]

Just say no, Kodos. Just say no.

[Lorena]

Originally Posted by bignej

Let me ask you this? Do you take your child to the services of every kind of religion? Whats the harm? They all have the same values. Every time I hear this argument it makes my skin crawl.

I don't know if this question was directed at johnny, but that's actually our plan. The daycare she went to this past summer took the kids to Baptist bible classes so we let her go. Her friend from Houston invited her to her church (which is a Christian church) and we went (*she* was invited but I felt the need to go). So our plan is to get her exposed to different services little by little. It'll be good exposure for me as well since I've only attended Catholic church. I've also read them a kid's Jehovah Witness bible "stories".

So yes, you're right, there's no harm in getting them exposed to different religions/belief systems, as long as it's not overwhelming them.

[Mac Howard]

As I started this indoctrination thing let me explain what I mean.

I'm not saying that a four year old will be indoctrinated into the specific dogma of that religion. He clearly will have little understanding of the sermon. He won't fully grasp even the words of the hymns. But what he will pick up, because all these big, important adults around him are singing his praises, is that God exists. God is real. God is the creature that we should put at the centre of our lives.

The child will be indoctrinated into the belief that God exists.

Now the difference between agnostics/atheists and religious people is not the morality, it's not the dogma specific to any particular religion. It's specifically about whether God exists. Whether there is sufficient evidence to cause us to believe - accept to be the absolute truth - that God exists.

As an agnostic I argue that, by 21st century standards, there is simply no such evidence. I do not argue that there is evidence he doesn't - I'm not sure what form such evidence could take - but I argue that there is nothing to cause me to accept the existence of a supernatural being that created this universe and is compassionate and apparently deeply interested in what I do or think. Even if there is a creator, what appalling arrogance to believe that this creator of a universe of 100 billion galaxies of a 100-400 billion stars, stretching across billions of light years and been around for 13.7 billion years should have any interest at all in me let alone what I do and think from day to day..

As the philosopher and Christian theologian Kierkegaard said (I paraphrase): to believe in such an entity requires a leap of faith. There's no logic can justify it. It has to be a leap of faith.

But he was wrong. Far better than a leap of faith is to establish it in a child's mind when he's too young to understand things like logic, evidence and faith. Because once you have it there and you reinforce it over the next 10 years or so then it will, in the majority of cases, stay for the rest of his life.

I know. I've been there, I've bought the tshirt etc. When you come to have your doubts then discarding the dogma of a particular faith isn't difficult - there are numerous dogmas and it's obvious not all can be right so why this one - but dropping God is hell (if you'll pardon the description). It's hell because it requires enormous confidence, arrogance perhaps, to believe that you know better than the billions that do believe in God and have done for centuries. That alone can cause many to turn away from turning away. There can be enormous guilt involved with rejecting what has been the basis of morality for centuries.

There can be enormous emotional strain in dropping belief in God particularly when there isn't anything obvious to take its place. But as he matures and begins to understand how humans lie and spin and deceive and self-deceive and believe what benefits them and the only evidence we have is from humans themselves then the doubts will kick in. And in some cases the doubts will overwhelm the beliefs. What's more this emotional turmoil will often come when he's struggling with the turmoil of becoming his own adult.

So that's what you're setting up for the child when you allow him to be indoctrinated into the belief that God exists. And, though there are many inescapable such influences in society at large, there's nothing quite like church and numerous worshiping adults to convince the young malleable mind.

Now, as has been said a couple of times in earlier posts, you can't avoid the child receiving some form of information on the existence/non-existence of God. For myself I inform my daughter that there are people who believe and some that don't and that at some time in the future she will probably decide for herself which group to join. She has no interest whatsoever at the moment but when she does I'll certainly give her the reasons for my own position but hopefully by then she'll have the ability to come to her own conclusions and I will not feel that I'm abusing our relationship by giving her my opinion.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

Because once you have it there and you reinforce it over the next 10 years or so then it will, in the majority of cases, stay for the rest of his life.

I know. I've been there, I've bought the tshirt etc.

I really question whether that's true. Maybe it depends on the religion. I've never once been to church when I wasn't living at home, with my parents. That seems to be true of most people I know (until they have kids, and they generally go back).

You say "you've been there" - but you're an agnostic.

It seems like people are avoiding just saying the obvious - "I don't like church and I don't want to bring my kids there." There's no shame in that. "I don't want them to be stuck with a religion for life when it's not their choice" just seems like an unnecessary justification. Most kids rebel against their youth in some capacity. Pastors' daughters are notorious in some circles.......

I see this like Ajaxab does. It just seems like an illogical paranoia.

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by molson

You say "you've been there" - but you're an agnostic.

Precisely. I was brought up as a Christian but went through the process I describe to become an agnostic. It was a long painful period.

It just seems like an illogical paranoia.

Or how seriously you take parenting.

Most parents will try to give their children a relatively stress-free childhood but eventually they'll leave and life will throw some curve balls at them. How successfully they deal with those will depend on their belief system or model of the world. Giving them the tools, as it were, to deal successfully is what this is all about.

[IrishHand]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

I think the other positive role religion/church can play is the idea of community and helpfulness.

I think this tends to be way overblown. I certainly agree that many people build a stronger sense of community and charity through churches, but there are many other avenues to achieve those same things without a specific faith-based worldview permeating the proceedings.

Our local community has fairly regular picnics and seasonal gatherings. My wife seems to have made most of her "recent" good friends (meaning not those from school age) through kid's events (swimming, gymnastics, t-ball, etc).

To me, many things can serve as the backdrop, if you will, of community-building and/or -enhancing. Churches, sports, secular gatherings, etc.

As for charity/helpfulness...though those certainly are encouraged by many faith-based organizations, there are again a large number of secular organizations that encourage and enable the same things. The vast majority of the people I know who donate money or volunteer their time do so through or to a non-religious organization (though to be fair, the majority of the people I tend to affiliate with are in the "never" to "rarely" on the church attendance scale).